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More Irish Heritage faces the cutters torch

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  • 06-02-2014 12:12pm
    #1
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭


    From the Maritime forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88862324#post88862324



    I really despair of this country and I'm worn out from my own efforts at preservation - which of course is what the authorities want - but surely there's somebody else out there who can get off their backsides and do something about this? :mad::mad::mad:


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    #2
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    What's the historical significance of the vessel?


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    #3
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,632 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Jawgap wrote: »
    What's the historical significance of the vessel?
    I only heard about this for the first time a few minutes ago so I am only reposting what I saw on a facebook page 'Naomh Eanna Trust'.
    Built in the Liffey Dockyard, Dublin from 1956 to 1958, the MV Naomh Eanna was built to carry passengers and supplies to the Aran Islands, off the west coast of Ireland. She worked this route for her entire life, plying out of Galway and was retired in 1988, following a hard career in one of the worst seas on the planet. In 1989 she was secured by the Irish Nautical Trust who moved her to Grand Canal Dock, Dublin where she is now moored.

    Sad indeed if they are just going to destroy it


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    #4
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    A not-too-far away example of what can be done with an old ship...pity there's no imagination south of the border. :(

    http://www.nomadicbelfast.com/

    plus an update from the iwai forum...

    'She is not taking on water or sinking or anything like that, and she should be under no circumstances be cut up, are we now down to photos of our heritage? Go figure folks..there are very interested and serious people interested in taking on this ship, all we need is the will from the powers to be to let them do it, and I know it will be done...do we want sterile boatless waterways?'

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q60gdhv0uznwlcc/oyfT9LFcx3


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    #5
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    I'll be honest - I don't see the historical significance of the vessel. She was an island ferry who did a lot of good work serving the offshore communities. Beyond that I'm not sure what makes her part of history?

    If she was conserved would she even be that much of a tourist draw compared to the Nomadic or HMS Caroline when she she's finished?

    I suspect the interest in her would be no more than niche.


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    #6
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    I think we have to be careful here. It is the normal course of events for buildings to be torn down and ships cut up; there is nothing wrong with that. Conservation looks to preserve those artefacts that are of real historical significance, rather than simply keeping things as they were. And, in truth, I don't see why the Naomh Eanna warrants maintaining


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    #7
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Reekwind wrote: »
    I think we have to be careful here. It is the normal course of events for buildings to be torn down and ships cut up; there is nothing wrong with that. Conservation looks to preserve those artefacts that are of real historical significance, rather than simply keeping things as they were. And, in truth, I don't see why the Naomh Eanna warrants maintaining

    The "Naomh Eanna" should be preserved if for no other reason than we have damn all of our maritime heritage preserved 'down here' - not a damn thing! Our railway heritage has been given away to Belfast too. Where did you get your definition of conservation from? Who says it's only about artefacts that are of real historical significance? Tell that to the Ulster Folk & Transport Museum and the myriad of other museums throughout the world that preserve every day items for future generations. Ireland is different though, a world leader in bull**** interpretative centres - cut up the real thing and then build a centre about it with OPW mannequins and FAS trainees giving guided tours to confused Americans. :rolleyes:


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    #8
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    The "Naomh Eanna" should be preserved if for no other reason than we have damn all of our maritime heritage preserved 'down here' - not a damn thing! Our railway heritage has been given away to Belfast too. Where did you get your definition of conservation from? Who says it's only about artefacts that are of real historical significance? Tell that to the Ulster Folk & Transport Museum and the myriad of other museums throughout the world that preserve every day items for future generations. Ireland is different though, a world leader in bull**** interpretative centres - cut up the real thing and then build a centre about it with OPW mannequins and FAS trainees giving guided tours to confused Americans. :rolleyes:

    A ferry is not exactly and everyday item that can be archived, catalogued and displayed. It takes a lot of money to renovate and maintain a ship / boat in the water.

    I still don't see what is significant about this vessel that might make it worth preserving - other than the fact that it's old. Is there anything remotely unique about its design, construction or service that would lead even a few people to add it to a list of things to see or suggest it should be preserved as an example of Ireland's maritime heritage for future generations to study?

    If we had the money I'd prefer if we hung on to one of the naval vessels as the centre piece for a maritime heritage museum in Cork - and / or plonk it in the river opposite Collins Barracks to compliment the Soldiers and Chiefs exhibition.

    The Ulster Folk & Transport Museum also charges an entry fee - would people pay to go see the Naomh Eanna?

    As for the idea that "our railway heritage has been given away to Belfast" - surely it's a shared heritage and therefore it's just as much 'theirs' as 'ours'?


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    #9
    donegal.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭donegal.


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    A not-too-far away example of what can be done with an old ship...pity there's no imagination south of the border. :(

    http://www.nomadicbelfast.com/
    "last remaining White Star Line ship in the world"

    it would take a quare leap of imagination to compare the significance of the two boats . :rolleyes:


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    #10
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    donegal. wrote: »
    "last remaining White Star Line ship in the world"

    it would take a quare leap of imagination to compare the significance of the two boats . :rolleyes:

    I don't why you're bothering to post in the History & Heritage forum given that you appear to have no interest in or grasp of the subject. Here's a few roll eyes for you too. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #11
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Jawgap wrote: »
    A ferry is not exactly and everyday item that can be archived, catalogued and displayed. It takes a lot of money to renovate and maintain a ship / boat in the water.

    I still don't see what is significant about this vessel that might make it worth preserving - other than the fact that it's old. Is there anything remotely unique about its design, construction or service that would lead even a few people to add it to a list of things to see or suggest it should be preserved as an example of Ireland's maritime heritage for future generations to study?

    If we had the money I'd prefer if we hung on to one of the naval vessels as the centre piece for a maritime heritage museum in Cork - and / or plonk it in the river opposite Collins Barracks to compliment the Soldiers and Chiefs exhibition.

    The Ulster Folk & Transport Museum also charges an entry fee - would people pay to go see the Naomh Eanna?

    As for the idea that "our railway heritage has been given away to Belfast" - surely it's a shared heritage and therefore it's just as much 'theirs' as 'ours'?


    So because something costs money to preserve it should be scrapped. Why a naval vessel should be preserved anymore than a commercial vessel? As for the railway items in Belfast - I think I'm well placed to know what the reaction would be if any of the collection were sought for repatriation to the south - shared heritage my hole. That said rather in Belfast than scrapped.


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    #12
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    donegal. wrote: »
    "last remaining White Star Line ship in the world"

    it would take a quare leap of imagination to compare the significance of the two boats . :rolleyes:


    It would be a relatively obscure WSL ship outside of special interest circles and within a hairs breadth of being disposed of without a whimper. I never knew it still even existed before it was brought back to Belfast.

    Re railway presevation, they're prob better off being all up in NI, they'd get sod all recogition, appreciation, protection and heritage lottery grants 'down Mexico way'.

    I wouldn't mind but there was no effort to offer the Naomh Eanna to any group that might be interested, just 'scrap it already'.


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    #13
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    So because something costs money to preserve it should be scrapped.

    Quite simply - yes. The less historically significant something is, the less should be spent preserving it. It's one thing to preserve household artifacts for nominal sums, it's quite another to spend hundreds of thousands restoring a vessel and tens of thousands maintaining it - unless the vessel has some unique characteristic.
    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Why a naval vessel should be preserved anymore than a commercial vessel?

    Because certain of our naval vessels were built in Ireland (at Verolme) and gave a certain service to the State.

    LE Aoife, due to be retired later this year, was built in Ireland, and was involved in the rescue of the Canadian sub - Chicoutimi. She was also involved in the Air India disaster.

    Deirdre - the first of her class was designed and built here and was involved in Fastnet Race disaster. She's now a luxury yacht.

    Emer - other than being available, I can't think of a reason, but someone with a better knowledge of the Navy may have an idea.

    Also, the Naval Service's ships were very well looked after and when they are decommissioned are seaworthy. Other than some work to remove or decommission equipment, the cost involved in relocating and maintaining them is quite modest.

    Judgement Day wrote: »
    As for the railway items in Belfast - I think I'm well placed to know what the reaction would be if any of the collection were sought for repatriation to the south - shared heritage my hole. That said rather in Belfast than scrapped.

    It's on the island - that's the important thing. It's not like it's inaccessible to anyone who is interested.


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    #14
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    The "Naomh Eanna" was built in Dublin in 1958 by Liffey Dockyard and it could be argued also performed some service to the State. There is a large, untapped public interest in maritime things in Ireland judging from the crowds that turn out to watch the Tall Ships etc. but there's never any follow through. The Dublin Port people don't seem to know what they about, as they allow the "Jeanie Johnston" to deteriorate while buying the "Kitiwake", the last Irish lightship in the Republic from Harry Crosbie. The simple fact is that a worthwhile maritime collection could be established in the Republic - including your beloved naval vessels - but not without pressure being brought to bear on the politicians.

    The amount of tourists estimated to have visited Ireland due to the €13 million spend on "The Gathering" was 275,000 - imagine if this sort of money had been wisely invested in key projects such as a National Transport Museum or Maritime Museum. It wouldn't be a one-off 275,000 visitors would it? Varadkar and Deenihan need to cop themselves on - will it happen - hell no, especially with the defeatist attitude amongst southern 'preservationists'.


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    #15
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    With respect, do you think a National Transport or Maritime Museum would add more than a few hundred visitors - as in people who would decide to come to Ireland primarily to visit such a site?

    I'd imagine most of any potential visitors to such a museum would add it to their itinerary having already decided to come here.

    If the Naomh Eanna was approaching decommissioning and was still generally seaworthy I'd say she should be preserved but looking at the amount of work she seems to need (although I'll admit to not being an expert), I'd suggest the finite budget we have to spend on heritage could be spent better elsewhere.

    It would be a sad and unworthy end to a ship that has provided sterling service but I'd suggest remediating her before sinking her somewhere close to shore (for divers to use) would be a better use of the hull (maybe as part of a 'blueway')


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    #16
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Where did you get your definition of conservation from? Who says it's only about artefacts that are of real historical significance?
    I'd start with the National Monuments Act, myself. You know, "a matter of national importance by reason of the historical, architectural, traditional, artistic, or archaeological interest"

    You've got to give a strong case as to why a building/ship/whatever has to be maintained indefinitely, as opposed to giving way to the new. Either its got intrinsic value in itself or it's a strong example of a particular genre/style. Otherwise you're just trying to live in the past and we'd all be living in 19th C tenements
    gobnaitolunacy wrote:
    It would be a relatively obscure WSL ship outside of special interest circles and within a hairs breadth of being disposed of without a whimper
    The Nomadic was almost certainly saved by its connection to the Titanic


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    #17
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    Reekwind wrote: »

    The Nomadic was almost certainly saved by its connection to the Titanic

    *slow handclap*


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    #18
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,632 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    I would be in favour of keeping it as for an island nation we don't seem to have much of a maritime heritage already, which I would say should be of historic national importance, except it doesn't seem to be because it was more or less ignored before.


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    #19
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Jawgap wrote: »
    With respect, do you think a National Transport or Maritime Museum would add more than a few hundred visitors - as in people who would decide to come to Ireland primarily to visit such a site?

    I'd imagine most of any potential visitors to such a museum would add it to their itinerary having already decided to come here.

    If the Naomh Eanna was approaching decommissioning and was still generally seaworthy I'd say she should be preserved but looking at the amount of work she seems to need (although I'll admit to not being an expert), I'd suggest the finite budget we have to spend on heritage could be spent better elsewhere.

    It would be a sad and unworthy end to a ship that has provided sterling service but I'd suggest remediating her before sinking her somewhere close to shore (for divers to use) would be a better use of the hull (maybe as part of a 'blueway')

    With respect I do think considerably more than a few hundred additional visitors would be attracted by the presence of a good maritime or transport museum. However stand alone attractions as in one maritime museum aren't going to have that effect but what is needed is a range of related, quality attractions - apart from pubs, some increasingly blighted scenery, mind crushing interpretative centres and some surfing (way out west) Ireland has little to offer. Compare our tourist offering with the UK mainland and it's laughable but the Failte Ireland/Govt. policy is not based on repeat business rather get 'em in once and fleece them.

    Your argument about the 'finite' amount to spend on heritage holds no water - sorry - but if we are to be serious about tourism/heritage money needs to be stripped from other budgets. I'm not saying where as that will take us seriously off topic.


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    #20
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    .....

    Your argument about the 'finite' amount to spend on heritage holds no water........

    Unlike the ship.......sorry, couldn't resist that one.


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    #21
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    *slow handclap*
    Hmmm. I was expecting you to point out the similar circumstances that would make the Naomh Eanna a monument of note


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    #22
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I don't get the significance of this vessel either.


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    #23
    deise08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,330 ✭✭✭deise08


    Lets hope she doesn't go the way of the Port Lairge. :( a sorry site to see now.


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    #24
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    I wouldnt be a massive follower of history and conservation, and generally in conservation arguments I side with the history/tourism side. But I really don't get how this ship is particularly significant, it's setting the bar very very low if this is an example of a valuable part of Irish heritage.

    You'd swear they were torching the Book of Kells or bulldozing the GPO the way some here are going on.


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    #25
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    I suppose a mere ferry like the "Naomh Eanna" doesn't really compare with the other ships preserved in our National Maritime Museum does it ...oh wait :rolleyes:

    From the thread in the Maritime Forum:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/break-up-of-aran-island-ferry-for-scrap-opposed-by-waterway-enthusiasts-1.1685587


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    #26
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    I suppose a mere ferry like the "Naomh Eanna" doesn't really compare with the other ships preserved in our National Maritime Museum does it ...oh wait :rolleyes:

    From the thread in the Maritime Forum:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/break-up-of-aran-island-ferry-for-scrap-opposed-by-waterway-enthusiasts-1.1685587

    Sorry, but if the presence or otherwise of illustrious passengers is the benchmark then we should have every bus, tram and train (or most of them) preserved.

    I think the clue is in the headline - "Break-up of Aran island ferry for scrap opposed by waterway enthusiasts" - I think most people wouldn't see the merit in recovering and restoring her and given the likely costs involved it's an even tougher sell.

    The other ship mentioned in that article - LE Macha - was scrapped and she was a former flower-class corvette who served on the Arctic convoy route when she was in service with the RN.

    She also brought the remains of WB Yeats back from France for reburial. She was scrapped in 1970.

    I don't mean that as justification for scrapping the Naomh Eanna, I just cite it as an example of how more historically significant ships have gone for scrap.

    I think if people want the Naomh Eanna to be saved then they have to find something worth saving in her, other than the fact that she's been around for a bit.


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    #27
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    You've effectively answered your own question - there's nothing worthy of preservation in Ireland - everybody's out of step save for our Jim. :rolleyes:


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    #28
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I'd have liked to see the Flower Class.


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    #29
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Just flicking around European Maritime Museums and came across this one in Turkey http://www.rmk-museum.org.tr/en/rmk_navigation.htm - lots of everyday craft preserved. The lifeboat is a bit of a contrast to the "Mary Stanford". Turkey is a country that would readily spring into my mind as a place noted for conservation but this museum is an eyeopener.

    solresim_tahlisiye_sandali.jpg


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    #30
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    You've effectively answered your own question - there's nothing worthy of preservation in Ireland - everybody's out of step save for our Jim. :rolleyes:

    No, there's tons of stuff worth preserving and if enough people think that vessel is worth preserving then preserved it shall be.

    In the case of the museum in Turkey - the "about us" section of their website seems to suggest it is a privately (largely) funded venture. I think if public money is going to be spent preserving something then the something needs to be extra extra special.

    We all things we think are worth preserving or pet projects that appeal to our own sense of what's historical but just because the belief is passionately held doesn't mean the items are actually historical.

    Btw- if Weston Aerodrome is suddenly purchased and turned into a Museum of Irish Aviation History, you'll know I will have won the Euromillions!


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    #31
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    Reekwind wrote: »
    Hmmm. I was expecting you to point out the similar circumstances that would make the Naomh Eanna a monument of note

    It's one of the last if not the last vessels of riveted construction, built in Dublin and the last remaining railway owned seagoing vessel on the island of Ireland, but I can't imagine that means anything to you. If people were on the ball in the 1960s we could have preserved a steamship like the British, Swiss, Kiwis or Dutch, but shure they were still on the go, why would we bother...it's not a monument (sic.) of note.


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