S & S and class periods

teacherhead · 18-01-2014 4:02pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Well I've news for any management - Teachers are there to serve their students . . . Not Management. If you cannot get anyone for a particular period then employ someone to do it using the money given by the DES.

It should be up to the teacher to decide these periods based on the time available to them to carry out their out of class duties so as to serve their students.

with respect, its not up to you to declare what is or isn't appropriate, your lack of knowledge is outstanding really for a person who pretends to know so much about running schools.

it is not practical to have no mechanism to cover all periods of the day sufficiently. Whether you like it or not peterflynt, schools have to run all day every day and this requires that there are teachers there to cover classes under this new agreement. Now in not saying that the periods should be selected by principals bit there has to be some way of resolving issues in an open way that respects both sides

teacherhead · 18-01-2014 4:03pm

worseforwear wrote: »

Id agree that's what will probably happen. But that's no comfort in the mean time. Just wish the would sort it out.
If no teachers opted out, schools would still need an amount of money to pay others to step in when needed.
It hasn't been thought through at all.
How has it been working in ETB schools so far?

etb school here no issues at all that im aware of, i dint know of anyone opting out.

worseforwear · 18-01-2014 4:23pm

teacherhead wrote: »

etb school here no issues at all that im aware of, i dint know of anyone opting out.

Before this opt out arrangement since sept, have there been situations where extra cover was needed and if so, how was it covered. Presumably P or Dp had to step in ? Just curious...
Thanks

teacherhead · 18-01-2014 4:30pm

worseforwear wrote: »

Before this opt out arrangement since sept, have there been situations where extra cover was needed and if so, how was it covered. Presumably P or Dp had to step in ? Just curious...
Thanks

i have done well above the 43 hours already, i spet a lot of time on the rota when we planned it to try have people in all slots. in fairness, even where there's only one teacher on people will give a dig out if stuck.

i have been very tight with organising speakers etc so that things are well spread throughout the week and there's no overload on particular days, last week was a **** week, next week looks like it'll be better, its up and down a bit.

Peter Flynt · 18-01-2014 4:50pm

teacherhead wrote: »

it is not practical to have no mechanism to cover all periods of the day sufficiently. Whether you like it or not peterflynt, schools have to run all day every day and this requires that there are teachers there to cover classes under this new agreement. Now in not saying that the periods should be selected by principals bit there has to be some way of resolving issues in an open way that respects both sides

Regarding a mechanism. . . There is NO MECHANISM in the Haddington Road Agreement whereby management can assign 5 periods.

Sorry. . . If you cannot fill classes - take it up with the DES.

It's nothing to do with your teachers - the majority of whom will either be paying the school indirectly 1769 per year for the rest of their careers or working S&S for free.

Is it possible that management can think outside the box which doesn't involve every solution coming from (or asking/begging) their teachers?

worseforwear · 18-01-2014 5:06pm

teacherhead wrote: »

i have done well above the 43 hours already, i spet a lot of time on the rota when we planned it to try have people in all slots. in fairness, even where there's only one teacher on people will give a dig out if stuck.

Of that I've no doubt. And yes most teachers are usually very helpful when you're stuck.

i have been very tight with organising speakers etc so that things are well spread throughout the week and there's no overload on particular days, last week was a **** week, next week looks like it'll be better, its up and down a bit.

There will have be some kind of a slush fund available otherwise the usual suspects will have to carry the can.

TheDriver · 18-01-2014 5:33pm

Its cl49 and no news if that's still available.

worseforwear · 18-01-2014 5:44pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Regarding a mechanism. . . There is NO MECHANISM in the Haddington Road Agreement whereby management can assign 5 periods.

Sorry. . . If you cannot fill classes - take it up with the DES.

It's nothing to do with your teachers - the majority of whom will either be paying the school indirectly 1769 per year for the rest of their careers or working S&S for free.

Is it possible that management can think outside the box which doesn't involve every solution coming from (or asking/begging) their teachers?

So peter are we to take it that you can't explain where your "understanding" comes from.... ill informed and shooting from the hip appears to be your game.

worseforwear · 18-01-2014 5:47pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Regarding a mechanism. . . There is NO MECHANISM in the Haddington Road Agreement whereby management can assign 5 periods.

Sorry. . . If you cannot fill classes - take it up with the DES.

It's nothing to do with your teachers - the majority of whom will either be paying the school indirectly 1769 per year for the rest of their careers or working S&S for free.

Is it possible that management can think outside the box which doesn't involve every solution coming from (or asking/begging) their teachers?

Ps... good to see youve got your mojo back and resumed management bashing again.

worseforwear · 18-01-2014 6:24pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Regarding a mechanism. . . There is NO MECHANISM in the Haddington Road Agreement whereby management can assign 5 periods.

Sorry. . . If you cannot fill classes - take it up with the DES.

It's nothing to do with your teachers - the majority of whom will either be paying the school indirectly 1769 per year for the rest of their careers or working S&S for free.

Is it possible that management can think outside the box which doesn't involve every solution coming from (or asking/begging) their teachers?

Ps... good to see youve got your mojo back and resumed management bashing again.

ytareh · 18-01-2014 6:25pm

Moderator...?

teacherhead · 18-01-2014 6:34pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Regarding a mechanism. . . There is NO MECHANISM in the Haddington Road Agreement whereby management can assign 5 periods.

Sorry. . . If you cannot fill classes - take it up with the DES.

It's nothing to do with your teachers - the majority of whom will either be paying the school indirectly 1769 per year for the rest of their careers or working S&S for free.

Is it possible that management can think outside the box which doesn't involve every solution coming from (or asking/begging) their teachers?

oh dear sweet peter, there are always implementation discussions on these agreements and in almost certain there will be something, of couse in the face of such attitudes as you own i wouldn't be surprised if there is a push for total management control over s&s.

2011abc · 18-01-2014 6:40pm

Mod I think Peter Flynnt has taken enough personal abuse over the last two pages .

worseforwear · 18-01-2014 6:52pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Regarding a mechanism. . . There is NO MECHANISM in the Haddington Road Agreement whereby management can assign 5 periods.

Sorry. . . If you cannot fill classes - take it up with the DES.

It's nothing to do with your teachers - the majority of whom will either be paying the school indirectly 1769 per year for the rest of their careers or working S&S for free.

Is it possible that management can think outside the box which doesn't involve every solution coming from (or asking/begging) their teachers?

Ps... good to see youve got your mojo back and resumed management bashing again.

Peter Flynt · 18-01-2014 7:20pm

worseforwear wrote: »

Ps... good to see youve got your mojo back and resumed management bashing again.

Really bizarre that you would post the same message at 4.47PM, 5.24PM and at 5.52PM.

Teachers doing S&S should write a letter to their management specifying their 5 periods.

After that it's up to you lot to sort it out. . . that's the reason why you're paid more.

endakenny · 18-01-2014 7:24pm

The CPA/HRA hours mean that teachers have reduced or dropped extra-curricular work because of the pressure that these hours put them under. That means that teachers will be away from the school much less often. Therefore, there may be periods when a teacher is on standby to substitute when no teachers are absent. That means that the teacher will be able to class preparation and correction of homework. Most teachers take days of leave only when they have a serious health problem, they have to take their children to medical appointments or when they have a bereavement.

TheDriver · 18-01-2014 7:38pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

After that it's up to you lot to sort it out. . . that's the reason why you're paid more.

Thankfully in my school we don't have a "them and us" attitude. You're school sounds like an unpleasant environment if it has fostered this sentiment in you Peter. This thread makes us all realise that different schools are indeed quite different from top down and bottom up and makes me appreciate my school even more. We have a fantastic staff and we all work together.

seavill · 18-01-2014 7:45pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Really bizarre that you would post the same message at 4.47PM, 5.24PM and at 5.52PM.

Teachers doing S&S should write a letter to their management specifying their 5 periods.

After that it's up to you lot to sort it out. . . that's the reason why you're paid more.

You still havn't answered the question about where "your understanding" came from about schools getting the S&S money?

evolving_doors · 18-01-2014 8:09pm

OK Ladies and Gents..

1. No personal attacks.
2. We know where the management vs. teachers stuff leads to..I think we can all agree it ends up rat-holing the thread topic.
3. If there are personal attacks please do not respond on thread. Use the REPORT post button. This ensures a mail will be sent directly to my mail so it can be caught quicker.
4. Please respect the fact that as mods we are volunteers and thus are not online watching threads 24/7.
5. Hearsay is counterproductive to debate so please provide any links where possible.

No warnings/bans/infractions have been handed out ....YET...

Do not respond to this post.

Thank you

worseforwear · 18-01-2014 9:03pm

mod snip

worseforwear · 18-01-2014 10:13pm

Mod snip ... again!...Please read post #220 folks

Member has been banned.

mockingjay · 19-01-2014 11:29am

This is becoming crazy. Despite handing in our initial opt-out letters to the VP as he requested us to do to, he has gone ahead and included 'every' member of staff on the S&S timetable, without any negotiation. He has told those of us that have opted out that we are on it and it must run as normal until the official form comes out to opt out. He said that he hopes doing it will help some of us our change our minds!!!! So for the first time in my life I am now on the S&S timetable and he thinks I will change my mind. By opting out I will be getting a paycut effective from 1st January AND I have to remain on the S&S timetable until the Department get their mess in order. This is crazy stuff. This week will be interesting.

happywithlife · 19-01-2014 11:44am

Sounds like HRA and s&s particularly are driving a huge wedge between staff and management in some schools.
Mocking jay I can't believe that is the attitude of management - I can only assume if there are a few of you, you will be in a position to stick together and refuse to do it. As you say your pay cut is already in place.
Grievances like this happen can in an instant with one person uttering one sentence and taking a particular stance. The effects will be long lasting and not easily forgotten or forgiven.

mockingjay · 19-01-2014 12:22pm

Management generally very accommodating and reasonable, but I think they have been overwhelmed by the amount of people opting out. I can only imagine what would happen if those that opt out can stay out - lay staff would have major difficulties with discipline issues at break times, the very reason teachers are opting out.

2011abc · 19-01-2014 12:29pm

'Lay staff' ?!Hey I know teaching is a vocation but come on!?

Peter Flynt · 19-01-2014 1:14pm

mockingjay wrote: »

This is becoming crazy. Despite handing in our initial opt-out letters to the VP as he requested us to do to, he has gone ahead and included 'every' member of staff on the S&S timetable, without any negotiation. He has told those of us that have opted out that we are on it and it must run as normal until the official form comes out to opt out. He said that he hopes doing it will help some of us our change our minds!!!! So for the first time in my life I am now on the S&S timetable and he thinks I will change my mind. By opting out I will be getting a paycut effective from 1st January AND I have to remain on the S&S timetable until the Department get their mess in order. This is crazy stuff. This week will be interesting.

Your VP is a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

If anything he/she is going to force those who might opt in to opt out.

Approach the Principal and inform him/her that the 1769 pay cut does indeed kick in from 01 January and that no circular has been released allowing the VP to place anyone on the Haddington Road S&S list.

teacherhead · 19-01-2014 2:09pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Your VP is a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

If anything he/she is going to force those who might opt in to opt out.

Approach the Principal and inform him/her that the 1769 pay cut does indeed kick in from 01 January and that no circular has been released allowing the VP to place anyone on the Haddington Road S&S list.

the advice from etbi is to leave those opting out off the roster, if yiy are forced to do it it will have to be offset against your croke park hours,

evolving_doors · 19-01-2014 2:22pm

Mockingjay, this is just nuts. I think this is a matter for your union rep ...if enough people refuse then theyll have to back down. If you signed out then you signed out. By the looks of things ...even if you do the hours in the interm you will get 0 compensation when you opt out. It looks like some teachers yet again do not even get what they voted for...

Miss Lockhart · 19-01-2014 3:34pm

Mockingjay you need to contact your union. They have a clear statement that once a teacher has notified the principal in writing they should not be placed on the rota. The pay cut will date from January 1st so why would you be doing any of this work?

Offsetting hours done against other hours such as CP wouldn't be an acceptable compromise in my school and many others as S&S duties are a far more onerous undertaking.

2011abc · 19-01-2014 6:08pm

Teachers get riden by Govt. shocker Part 267 :So the S+S system was meant to remain status quo until 20th but the Opt Outers are being deducted from the 1st!?Almost exactly 100 Euro gross more for the unsecured bondholders -saved you the maths .

Pwpane · 19-01-2014 11:48pm

mockingjay wrote: »

This is becoming crazy. Despite handing in our initial opt-out letters to the VP as he requested us to do to, he has gone ahead and included 'every' member of staff on the S&S timetable, without any negotiation. He has told those of us that have opted out that we are on it and it must run as normal until the official form comes out to opt out. He said that he hopes doing it will help some of us our change our minds!!!! So for the first time in my life I am now on the S&S timetable and he thinks I will change my mind. By opting out I will be getting a paycut effective from 1st January AND I have to remain on the S&S timetable until the Department get their mess in order. This is crazy stuff. This week will be interesting.

Simple. Just don't do it. He has no authority to put you on the roster so in effect you are not on it. You are paying for the privilege.

TheDriver · 20-01-2014 10:40am

A question that I presumed I know the answer to but suddenly unsure. If you opt out and take the cut, does your pension reflect the cut? or is the cut seperate to the gross that the pension is calculated on?

Peter Flynt · 20-01-2014 3:05pm

worseforwear wrote: »

So peter are we to take it that you can't explain where your "understanding" comes from.... ill informed and shooting from the hip appears to be your game.

seavill wrote: »

Where did you get the info about the school being paid the money?

There it is there. . . In the circular - So much for me being ill informed. .

24. Where a teacher opts out of supervision and substitution duties, an amount equivalent to the supervision and substitution allowance will be allocated to the teacher’s school/ETB solely for the provision of supervision and substitution duties in accordance with the pre- 1 July 2013 arrangements. This allocation cannot be used to pay full-time teachers or teachers who have opted out of supervision and substitution duties for supervision and substitution on a casual/ non-pensionable basis.

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/Public-Service-Stability-Agreement-2013-–-2016-Haddington-Road-Agreement-Supervision-and-Substitution-Scheme.pdf

teacherhead · 20-01-2014 7:21pm

Pwpane wrote: »

Simple. Just don't do it. He has no authority to put you on the roster so in effect you are not on it. You are paying for the privilege.

from the same circular.

21. An eligible teacher wishing to exercise the opt-out must complete the form at Appendix 1 and submit it to the Principal of their school in the first instance. The deadline for submission of forms is 28 February 2014. As there is a liability to perform supervision and substitution duties until the opt-out is exercised, a Principal may timetable a teacher for supervision and substitution duties in accordance with the terms of this Circular pending receipt of an opt-out form from that teacher.

it seems that the best advice is to get your form in asap.

Peter Flynt · 20-01-2014 7:30pm

teacherhead wrote: »

from the same circular.

21. An eligible teacher wishing to exercise the opt-out must complete the form at Appendix 1 and submit it to the Principal of their school in the first instance. The deadline for submission of forms is 28 February 2014. As there is a liability to perform supervision and substitution duties until the opt-out is exercised, a Principal may timetable a teacher for supervision and substitution duties in accordance with the terms of this Circular pending receipt of an opt-out form from that teacher.

it seems that the best advice is to get your form in asap.

Note the part in bold I've highlighted from your quote above and point 8 of the circular.

8.A working group involving the Department, school management bodies and unions is currently considering the issue of the rostering of supervision and substitution duties, with a view to putting a protocol in place for the 2014/15 school year. Further communication in relation to this matter will issue as appropriate.

ethical · 20-01-2014 7:52pm

From the Dept. Circular..................
8. A working group involving the Department, school management bodies and unions is
currently considering the issue of the rostering of supervision and substitution duties,
with a view to putting a protocol in place for the 2014/15 school year. Further
communication in relation to this matter will issue as appropriate.
.....................obviously there is now a greater need than ever before for someone to take a case,time-tables are so full and yet Management can force you ,even if it your only free class of the day to fill in ........................if the right to choose the 5 periods is taken away from the teacher its a sad day for teaching..............................why don't the Dept,JMB and Unions go ahead and make the S and S part of your contracted timetable or would that cause uproar and more or less null and void the 22 hrs of contracted and class contact as we know it presently.This present business of adding on and adding on without touching the 'paid for ' 22hrs is getting out of hand.

ethical · 20-01-2014 7:57pm

Please excuse my ignorance but what does this actually mean? Is it a once -off payment or will it be part of the basic salary scale from 2017 onwards,will all steps of the salary scale increase by this amount for evermore?

From the circular:
12. A gross additional payment of €1,592 will be included in the Common Basic Scale for
teachers in two moieties - half in the school year 2016/17 and half in the school year
2017/18.

Peter Flynt · 20-01-2014 8:01pm

ethical wrote: »

Why don't the Dept,JMB and Unions go ahead and make the S and S part of your contracted timetable

They've more or less done that between now and the next academic year according to this circular.

The meeting setup to decide from the next academic year onwards will achieve nothing more than "management should reach consensus with staff" line. If consensus cannot be reached then the management will be allowed to take the decision I'd say. In other words - It's management who will make the decisions on the 5 classes.

This meeting setup is nothing more than a talking shop.

Interestingly those on less hours (17 hours or less) nominate fewer classes even though they have more time available.

Part-time teachers will be required to be available for the following class periods per week:
a) Teachers working up to and including 12 hours class contact per week = 3 class periods
b) Teachers working more than 12 and up to and including 17 hours class contact per week = 4 class periods
c) Teachers working more than 17 hours class contact per week = 5 class periods

This makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. It also does not discriminate between schools that have different lengths of time per period.

The number of hours assigned to the week has now gone from 22 hours in 2010 to an average of 24.64 hours in less than 3 years for those opting in.

Shame on the ASTI and the TUI.

I cannot help but wonder if they're deliberately muddying the waters on this new JCSA to distract their members as this new unpaid S&S kicks in.

Certainly looks like it.

Peter Flynt · 20-01-2014 8:10pm

ethical wrote: »

Please excuse my ignorance but what does this actually mean? Is it a once -off payment or will it be part of the basic salary scale from 2017 onwards,will all steps of the salary scale increase by this amount for evermore?

From the circular:
12. A gross additional payment of €1,592 will be included in the Common Basic Scale for
teachers in two moieties - half in the school year 2016/17 and half in the school year
2017/18.

On 1 April 2017 half the money will be added (€796) to each point on the salary scale with the rest on 01 January 2018. It's supposedly permanent.

Will it happen?

Doubt it. . . By then we'll be part of Croke Park 3 (Haddington Road 2) and any payment will probably be dependent on handing over more in your T&C.

Ironically it is a sum of money which is €177 less than the opt out charge.

endakenny · 20-01-2014 8:11pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

They've more or less done that between now and the next academic year according to this circular.

The meeting setup to decide from the next academic year onwards will achieve nothing more than "management should reach consensus with staff" line. If consensus cannot be reached then the management will be allowed to take the decision I'd say. In other words - It's management who will make the decisions on the 5 classes.

This meeting setup is nothing more than a talking shop.

Interestingly those on less hours (17 hours or less) nominate fewer classes even though they have more time available.

This makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. It also does not discriminate between schools that have different lengths of time per period.

The number of hours assigned to the week has now gone from 22 hours in 2010 to an average of 24.64 hours in less than 3 years for those opting in.

Shame on the ASTI and the TUI.

I cannot help but wonder if they're deliberately muddying the waters on this new JCSA to distract their members as this new unpaid S&S kicks in.

Certainly looks like it.

If the ASTI and the TUI had not accepted HRA then secondary teachers would have been compelled to do S&S under FEMPI anyway.

solerina · 20-01-2014 8:12pm

this 'reaching consensus' thing is a total joke...if we have to do the 3/5 classes we should at least be entitled to choose which 5 we are Ok with, no doubt our jokes of unions will see it fit to make sure this doesn't happen !!!!

Peter Flynt · 20-01-2014 8:17pm

endakenny wrote: »

If the ASTI and the TUI had not accepted HRA then secondary teachers would have been compelled to do S&S under FEMPI anyway.

Yea . . The directives would still be in place and members wouldn't be doing Croke Park with a possible non co-operation with the inspection process (or some other directive).

teacherhead · 20-01-2014 8:26pm

ethical wrote: »

Please excuse my ignorance but what does this actually mean? Is it a once -off payment or will it be part of the basic salary scale from 2017 onwards,will all steps of the salary scale increase by this amount for evermore?

From the circular:
12. A gross additional payment of €1,592 will be included in the Common Basic Scale for
teachers in two moieties - half in the school year 2016/17 and half in the school year
2017/18.

afaik its added on to every point of the scale.

teacherhead · 20-01-2014 8:32pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

On 1 April 2017 half the money will be added (€796) to each point on the salary scale with the rest on 01 January 2018. It's supposedly permanent.

Will it happen?

Doubt it. . . By then we'll be part of Croke Park 3 (Haddington Road 2) and any payment will probably be dependent on handing over more in your T&C.

Ironically it is a sum of money which is €177 less than the opt out charge.

i think there is a legal impediment to not paying it as it is designed to cover the fact that the allowance was pensionable. They may well find a way of circumventing that.

Peter Flynt · 20-01-2014 8:43pm

teacherhead wrote: »

i think there is a legal impediment to not paying it as it is designed to cover the fact that the allowance was pensionable. They may well find a way of circumventing that.

With regard to these payments . . . .on Page 29 of the Haddington Road Agreement it states that "Such payments to be considered in any future pay negotiation arrangements in respect of teachers."

That's the mother of all get-out clauses right there.

The next sentence states. . . "The duties [S&S] continue to be performed indefinitely."

In other words - You're doing S&S for the rest of your career. We agree to pay you in two instalments . . . subject to further "negotiation"

endakenny · 20-01-2014 9:11pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Yea . . The directives would still be in place and members wouldn't be doing Croke Park with a possible non co-operation with the inspection process (or some other directive).

Non-co-operation with the inspection process would have been a breach of teachers' contracts of employment and thus would have caused another docking of salaries.

I believe that many ASTI members were not willing to withdraw from S&S because they didn't want the closure of schools and there is no evidence that the Department was prepared to recruit external personnel, which is what happened in 2002 and 2003.

Peter Flynt · 20-01-2014 9:18pm

endakenny wrote: »

Non-co-operation with the inspection process would have been a breach of teachers' contracts of employment and thus would have caused another docking of salaries.

I believe that many ASTI members were not willing to withdraw from S&S because they didn't want the closure of schools and there is no evidence that the Department was prepared to recruit external personnel, which is what happened in 2002 and 2003.

There is no reference to co-operation with inspectors in any teacher contract. In fact this was one of the directives "ready to go" and could easily have been issued along with the other directives issued by the ASTI.

ASTI members wouldn't have been responsible for closing any schools. Boards of Management would have been. The DES would not have been responsible for employing external personnel. . . They couldn't as they wanted S&S done for free. . . So get the teachers to do it.

How many "external personnel" would work in a school for free?

evolving_doors · 20-01-2014 9:45pm

endakenny wrote: »

[...] I believe that many ASTI members were not willing to withdraw from S&S because they didn't want the closure of schools [...]

Hold on a second ....I know its a vocation and all that...but €1700 on top of nearly €3k USC and pension levy...property tax...water charges coming in.. Id rather schools closed and be deducted daily salary indefinitely just to fight our case. That was our best option...

I believe many teachers didn't opt out simply because..... theyre broke enough as it is....we're professionals alright, but paid little more than babysitters.

ed06 · 21-01-2014 12:17am

in terms of s+s if you have decided to opt out can you still be assigned cover if a teacher has taken a class away on school business?

HRA21 · 21-01-2014 1:23am

ed06 wrote: »

in terms of s+s if you have decided to opt out can you still be assigned cover if a teacher has taken a class away on school business?

Yep. You can if your whole class is gone. Its separate to the s&s scheme.

S & S and class periods

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