S & S and class periods

Peter Flynt · 08-01-2014 7:09pm

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I work in another profession and if anyone, including the equivalent of an inspector, wanted to meet me outside of contracted hours we would arrange a time to suit both of us by mutual agreement. Likewise if I as the boss want to meet a professional I employ I ask to arrange a mutually convenient time. That's professional courtesy. There is little professional courtesy in dictating a meeting time. It's not operatives on a factory line we're talking about.

What I have noticed is that this does not occur in inspections.

The timetables are handed to the inspector.

The inspector decides who they wish to inspect. They then notice that the teacher they inspected is free at a particular time later that day.

They then, with no consultation, basically inform the teacher [via a notice to be placed on the Principals noticeboard] that they will meet the teacher at that later appointed time to discuss their class.

If this time is one of the five then the inspector should be informed of that by the management if that teacher has been deducted 1769 euros.

On a separate note an incidental inspection occurred of another teacher in my school. I was in the class afterwards with a sixth year group. On arrival for my class the inspector asked for a few minutes to discuss with the teacher they had just visited. The inspector delayed the start of my class for 14 minutes [I timed her] even though there was an empty office right beside.

Miss Lockhart · 08-01-2014 7:27pm

I agree Peter, I have experienced the same issues over a number of inspections now. I had to attend a post inspection feedback meeting from 4-5.30 (ran til nearly six) on a Friday evening not that long ago. There was no consultation and only two days notice.

Personally I would see no point in notifying management of any specific periods as unavailable. I would consider all free periods to be mine to do with as I choose and would make a decision on my availability on a case by case basis at my own discretion. Not to say I would be deliberately inflexible - that wouldn't be my style (quite the reverse actually) - but if I'm being treated in an unprofessional manner with every minute of my contracted time being dictated and micromanaged with busy work then you can be damn sure I'd do what suits in my bought and paid for free time.

Godge · 08-01-2014 8:20pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

What I have noticed is that this does not occur in inspections.

The timetables are handed to the inspector.

The inspector decides who they wish to inspect. They then notice that the teacher they inspected is free at a particular time later that day.

They then, with no consultation, basically inform the teacher [via a notice to be placed on the Principals noticeboard] that they will meet the teacher at that later appointed time to discuss their class.

If this time is one of the five then the inspector should be informed of that by the management if that teacher has been deducted 1769 euros.

On a separate note an incidental inspection occurred of another teacher in my school. I was in the class afterwards with a sixth year group. On arrival for my class the inspector asked for a few minutes to discuss with the teacher they had just visited. The inspector delayed the start of my class for 14 minutes [I timed her] even though there was an empty office right beside.

Surely it is the other way around. This is the only way that makes sense to normal working people.

Teacher A: 22 hours and 5 availability periods for S&S - meeting should take place outside these 27 hours.

Teacher B: 22 hours and S&S opt-out - meeting should take place outside these 22 hours.

The fact that the meeting with Teacher B could theoretically take place in one of the 5 hours that could theoretically have been assigned to Teacher B had they not opted-out is irrelevant. The liability is to the meeting with the inspector, not to the 5 hours.

If in a school, in order to reduce the hassle/pressure on a teacher, the principal/inspector have agreed that the meeting can take place during the 5 hours if the teacher is not actually needed that week during the 5 hours, is an added local bonus, not required by the contract and shows the type of flexibility that school management can offer when possible, is great if it happens, but again, irrelevant to whether or not Teacher B has opted out.

acequion · 08-01-2014 8:24pm

The comparison with unskilled operatives is very apt and I,feel very insulted by that kind of treatment. There's even a whiff of it coming from the kids and more than a whiff from a lot of the parents. Personally I am lucky, in that the vast majority of my students are ok and the management treat us with respect, but,all the same it's coming through in the prevalent top down management style. That story about an inspector keeping a teacher waiting 14 minutes is a perfect example.What an insult to a teacher waiting to teach an LC class! Yet there would be quite a few raised eyebrows if said class got poor results.

But the unskilled operative would have no problem asserting his rights.As professionals,many of us would feel we were lacking "professional courtesy". As I said earlier, we so need to toughen up!

Pwpane · 08-01-2014 8:57pm

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I don't disagree. I completely understand that point. The individual teacher as a professional practitioner must make and be responsible for these decisions themself. There may be a contractual requirement to meet inspectors though. But agreement on when, if outside contracted hours, should lie with the individual.

Much of the inspectorate and some of those managing schools seem to be under the illusion they are managing unskilled operatives following a list of instructions, instead of leading a group of professional individuals. Imo that is the biggest failing of schools and this disrespect and micromanagement filters down and is to the detriment of education as a whole. And professionalism is a two way street in that regard though - teachers have to act professionally, demand professional treatment and be professionally accountable.

Exactly that.

And if we react as unskilled operatives we will continue to be treated thus.

In my opinion, we should think certain scenarios through for the future. How we should react if told we have a meeting that disrupts our plans for the day, if asked to wait outside a classroom by an inspector inside etc. It's ingrained in us to be helpful within the school so it's often afterwards that we think of how we would prefer to have reacted.

In the above examples, it might be to say that the meeting time was unsuitable as it clashed with essential class prep but that you would be available during such-and-such class if cover is provided or during such-and-such 'free' period. Or to smile at the inspector and say sorry but you have class there now and maybe the secretary could direct them to a free office, and then walk in with your students.

ethical · 08-01-2014 9:16pm

In many cases the wrong type of person is appointed as Principal,many so called Principals are soooooo last year,they are just effin bullies that have been bullied themselves through the years and now feel that they can bully their way and make life hell for young and sometimes not so young teachers. We have a Principal who always signed up for S and S and never did it when a teacher !!!! Now ,as Principal wants everyone to do it and uses the motto: If I am in school so should you!!!! as far as s and s and CP hours are concerned.I know its bullying but staff will not stand up for themselves.Hiding behind a religious 'habit' or 'uniform' is also used as a fear factor.Down West recently there was a 'gathering',my mate tells me,and the now nearly defunct religious were proclaiming the wonders of the bully who they had deemed suitable as their replacement,much to the astonishment of the parents present,yet no one stood up and shouted 'stop'!

Part of the charter you sign up to here is not to make wide sweeping generalisations. Please do not do so again.

teacherhead · 08-01-2014 9:39pm

acequion wrote: »

The comparison with unskilled operatives is very apt and I,feel very insulted by that kind of treatment. There's even a whiff of it coming from the kids and more than a whiff from a lot of the parents. Personally I am lucky, in that the vast majority of my students are ok and the management treat us with respect, but,all the same it's coming through in the prevalent top down management style. That story about an inspector keeping a teacher waiting 14 minutes is a perfect example.What an insult to a teacher waiting to teach an LC class! Yet there would be quite a few raised eyebrows if said class got poor results.

But the unskilled operative would have no problem asserting his rights.As professionals,many of us would feel we were lacking "professional courtesy". As I said earlier, we so need to toughen up!

people are people regardless of occupation.

teacherhead · 08-01-2014 9:47pm

we had a wse last year, I was inspected first thing for a trouble and was off third class. to be fair to the inspector he asked did it suit to meet him in the third class. I was never going to say no to be honest, but at least he asked.

I don't think that courtesy extends only to people who are 'professionals' there are many very 'professional' tradesmen and factory workers. some teachers have a wonderful opinion of themselves in matters like this. imagine the ordinary human being without a hdip reading this, its no wonder were public enemy no.1

Godge · 08-01-2014 10:14pm

acequion wrote: »

That story about an inspector keeping a teacher waiting 14 minutes is a perfect example.What an insult to a teacher waiting to teach an LC class!

Is this serious? A 14 minute delay to a meeting is an insult? I have had many business meetings delayed by much longer, by staff reporting to me, by people I reported to, by clients, by regulators and by those who needed me.

In the case of waiting to meet regulators, (akin to inspectors in a teaching context) I was happy to meet them whenever and wherever they wanted and respond in full as quickly as possible to any enquiry they had. Then again, at all times, I had full confidence in my own professionalism and wouldn't be insulted by a 14-minute wait. I might have a view on the regulator's professionalism, but that's another story.

Peter Flynt · 08-01-2014 10:21pm

Godge wrote: »

Is this serious? A 14 minute delay to a meeting is an insult? I have had many business meetings delayed by much longer, by staff reporting to me, by people I reported to, by clients, by regulators and by those who needed me.

In the case of waiting to meet regulators, (akin to inspectors in a teaching context) I was happy to meet them whenever and wherever they wanted and respond in full as quickly as possible to any enquiry they had. Then again, at all times, I had full confidence in my own professionalism and wouldn't be insulted by a 14-minute wait. I might have a view on the regulator's professionalism, but that's another story.

Well an entire class of 6th years were waiting outside, with me, as the Inspector took her time giving an evaluation.

There was a room available just around the corner.

Completely unprofessional on behalf of the Inspector.

km79 · 08-01-2014 10:22pm

Godge wrote: »

Is this serious? A 14 minute delay to a meeting is an insult? I have had many business meetings delayed by much longer, by staff reporting to me, by people I reported to, by clients, by regulators and by those who needed me.

In the case of waiting to meet regulators, (akin to inspectors in a teaching context) I was happy to meet them whenever and wherever they wanted and respond in full as quickly as possible to any enquiry they had. Then again, at all times, I had full confidence in my own professionalism and wouldn't be insulted by a 14-minute wait. I might have a view on the regulator's professionalism, but that's another story.

If you read it again the person in question said that the inspector was talking to another teacher in the class room that was to be used for the leaving cert class. There was an office next door which could have been used for the 2 person chat instead of leaving the teacher and leaving cert class standing outside . That was my read on it.
If one of your children was in that leaving cert class how would you feel about this ?
If one of them had an accident while being forced to stand outside the room what would the consequences have been ?
Maybe the person who posted can clear up if this was what they meant anyway

Peter Flynt · 08-01-2014 10:24pm

km79 wrote: »

If you read it again the person in question said that the inspector was talking to another teacher in the class room that was to be used for the leaving cert class. There was an office next door which could have been used for the 2 person chat instead of leaving the teacher and leaving cert class standing outside . That was my read on it.

That's what happened alright.

evolving_doors · 08-01-2014 10:41pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Well an entire class of 6th years were waiting outside, with me, as the Inspector took her time giving an evaluation.

There was a room available just around the corner.

Completely unprofessional on behalf of the Inspector.

Teacher: Sorry, I have a class here now.
Inspector: This will only take a few minutes.
Teacher: I understand, there's actually a room free next door now, apologies but I have x planned with the class today (whilst ushering in students).
Problem sorted

Here's a handy tip (I'm often timetabled in high demand rooms that teachers try to poach for talks etc ). Always wait outside with students first ...give a quick look inside...if there's usurpers then usher your own class in as quick as possible while you stand at the door shouting at them to hurry up and get in place...before the usurper realise what's going on the students have marked your territory.

acequion · 08-01-2014 10:46pm

Godge wrote: »

Is this serious? A 14 minute delay to a meeting is an insult? I have had many business meetings delayed by much longer, by staff reporting to me, by people I reported to, by clients, by regulators and by those who needed me.

In the case of waiting to meet regulators, (akin to inspectors in a teaching context) I was happy to meet them whenever and wherever they wanted and respond in full as quickly as possible to any enquiry they had. Then again, at all times, I had full confidence in my own professionalism and wouldn't be insulted by a 14-minute wait. I might have a view on the regulator's professionalism, but that's another story.

You obviously work in an entirely different environment to us.What a lot of people outside the profession don't get is the intensity of teaching.My LC English class,for example, begins at 2.40. If, for whatever reason, it doesn't begin until 3, then that's 20 minutes lost that can't be regained.it's not like in a more flexible environment where a meeting begins later and can end later or the 20 minutes can be tacked on elsewhere.In a teaching timetable,that time is lost,wasted,irretrievable.Period. And that is quite a problem when there is a long,difficult course to be covered.

km79 · 08-01-2014 10:55pm

acequion wrote: »

You obviously work in an entirely different environment to us.What a lot of people outside the profession don't get is the intensity of teaching.My LC English class,for example, begins at 2.40. If, for whatever reason, it doesn't begin until 3, then that's 20 minutes lost that can't be regained.it's not like in a more flexible environment where a meeting begins later and can end later or the 20 minutes can be tacked on elsewhere.In a teaching timetable,that time is lost,wasted,irretrievable.Period. And that is quite a problem when there is a long,difficult course to be covered.

And as I said if they were a parent of a child in that class they would not be long complaining too

acequion · 08-01-2014 10:56pm

teacherhead wrote: »

we had a wse last year, I was inspected first thing for a trouble and was off third class. to be fair to the inspector he asked did it suit to meet him in the third class. I was never going to say no to be honest, but at least he asked.

I don't think that courtesy extends only to people who are 'professionals' there are many very 'professional' tradesmen and factory workers. some teachers have a wonderful opinion of themselves in matters like this. imagine the ordinary human being without a hdip reading this, its no wonder were public enemy no.1

Sorry teacherhead but with such a servile attitude as yours,is it any wonder we're treated like doormats. You were "never going to say no" and "at least he asked" My,but what a nice man!! Can you really not see how servile your tone is?

Also,nobody cast any aspersions on tradesmen and no one suggested that we're so precious. But,at the end of the day we are professionals, doing a professional job and it's surely not too much to ask to be treated as such.

And as for this enemy no 1 nonsense, please don't even give that the time of day. You really would swear that we went on the rampage terrorising the teenage population of the country to be given such a hysterical label! FFS:mad:

Please attack the post not the poster.

teacherhead · 08-01-2014 11:44pm

acequion wrote: »

Sorry teacherhead but with such a servile attitude as yours,is it any wonder we're treated like doormats. You were "never going to say no" and "at least he asked" My,but what a nice man!! Can you really not see how servile your tone is?

Also,nobody cast any aspersions on tradesmen and no one suggested that we're so precious. But,at the end of the day we are professionals, doing a professional job and it's surely not too much to ask to be treated as such.

And as for this enemy no 1 nonsense, please don't even give that the time of day. You really would swear that we went on the rampage terrorising the teenage population of the country to be given such a hysterical label! FFS:mad:

I had to meet him that day, what would you have me do? Servile? Polite? Whatever you're into.

Thats just.my experience with an inspector.

Miss Lockhart · 09-01-2014 12:28am

Of course people are people and everybody should be treated with respect and courtesy. That goes without saying. Professional courtesy is an entirely different matter and that is what is being discussed. It seems deliberately obtuse to pretend otherwise.

Tryng to cast aspersions on teachers for expecting to be treated as a professional practitioner rather than as an unskilled employee (nobody mentioned tradesmen) is ridiculous. It's rather sad to see this nonsense rolled out by colleagues.

And as for comparing a delayed business meeting with the arrogance of wasting at least a quarter of students' class time because you haven't the manners to move rooms - the mind boggles.

teacherhead · 09-01-2014 12:52am

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Tryng to cast aspersions on teachers for expecting to be treated as a professional practitioner rather than as an unskilled employee (nobody mentioned tradesmen) is ridiculous. It's rather sad to see this nonsense rolled out by colleagues.

I mentioned tradesmen, unskilled workers are entitled to be well treated too you know. Do you think the cleaners in the school should be treated differently to you? Should they wait till youre ready to sweep the floor once the last bell goes?

Its rather sad to see people being so precious if anything.

I accept that the inspector holding up the room is not on. They could well have moved. This whole thing arose out of a question about having to meet an inspector at a time to be determined by the inspector.

If a parent can only meet you at 9am before they go to work at ten or whatever do you tell them that the 9am class is one of your five periods?

there has to be give and take in everything.

Miss Lockhart · 09-01-2014 1:02am

teacherhead wrote: »

I mentioned tradesmen, unskilled workers are entitled to be well treated too you know. Do you think the cleaners in the school should be treated differently to you? Should they wait till youre ready to sweep the floor once the last bell goes?

Its rather sad to see people being so precious if anything.

I accept that the inspector holding up the room is not on. They could well have moved. This whole thing arose out of a question about having to meet an inspector at a time to be determined by the inspector.

If a parent can only meet you at 9am before they go to work at ten or whatever do you tell them that the 9am class is one of your five periods?

there has to be give and take in everything.

Once again, basic manners, respect and courtesy are due to all people both inside and outside work. Professional courtesy is entirely different. If you think maintaining professional standards is precious then I have no common ground with you.

I have no idea why you are posing questions about cleaners or parents to me. If you read my posts I have said that I am happy to be reasonably flexible. I also disagree with nominating any particular "5 periods". I don't however accept having my free time dictated to me without consultation. It's not the same thing.

worseforwear · 09-01-2014 1:13am

Fair play.....it didn't take long for this discussion to go from "how would s&s work?" to another bitching session about, how us the poor runts of the educational system are being treated. I agree totally with teacherhead, some teachers are very precious about themselves. Complain constantly about students, parents, principals, boards of management, inspectorate, and unions and everything else aswell. Shouting about a lost 20 mins. oh the poor children , they will never get that back, but yet I can be a couple or 5 mins late after every break and lunch. "Oh please please please, if only we could be appreciated.!!!
We are professionals alright.... PROFESSIONAL WHINGERS!
Here's an idea, some of you could start another thread ? Maybe call it .... "Staffroom of Woe".
I promise I wont follow it.

If you have an issue with a thread going off topic, please report it rather than exacerbate it. As per the forum charter there are to be no sweeping generalisations.

teacherhead · 09-01-2014 1:22am

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Once again, basic manners, respect and courtesy are due to all people both inside and outside work. Professional courtesy is entirely different. If you think maintaining professional standards is precious then I have no common ground with you.

I have no idea why you are posing questions about cleaners or parents to me. If you read my posts I have said that I am happy to be reasonably flexible. I also disagree with nominating any particular "5 periods". I don't however accept having my free time dictated to me without consultation. It's not the same thing.

It's a general q not necessarily aimed at you miss Lockhart.

I'm not into stirring things up but professional standards are great I'm all for them, we have to.cooperate with inspectors, if they aren't professional thats their problem.

I am genuinely annoyed though at the comparison to unskilled workers. It is as if they should have to wait 14 mins after their shift ends to see their manager if they are asked to.just because they are unskilled.

My point has been that there should be courtesy for all, not just because we are teachers.

I expect courtesy from students and parents and I give them the same. If I dont get it I tell them that I expect it. I'd like to think I'd do the same with an inspector

I'm going to do.like the guys on dragons den now, this is a great thread - but I'm out.

Miss Lockhart · 09-01-2014 1:30am

teacherhead wrote: »

I am genuinely annoyed though at the comparison to unskilled workers. It is as if they should have to wait 14 mins after their shift ends to see their manager if they are asked to.just because they are unskilled.

No, I would not agree with that situation for any workers - I never suggested otherwise.

acequion · 09-01-2014 1:32am

teacherhead wrote: »

I mentioned tradesmen, unskilled workers are entitled to be well treated too you know. Do you think the cleaners in the school should be treated differently to you? Should they wait till youre ready to sweep the floor once the last bell goes?

Its rather sad to see people being so precious if anything.

I accept that the inspector holding up the room is not on. They could well have moved. This whole thing arose out of a question about having to meet an inspector at a time to be determined by the inspector.

If a parent can only meet you at 9am before they go to work at ten or whatever do you tell them that the 9am class is one of your five periods?

there has to be give and take in everything.

Sorry again,teacherhead but I am appalled by your attitude! "Precious" because we demand respect? You're the one who keeps bringing up cleaners and other workers,somehow implying that we think we're superior. We don't.But we do realise that we are professionals.

As for the bit emboldened above. You betcha I'd very quickly tell them that was a free period and I'm not available because free means free. And if that makes me inflexible,fine. I already work 10 hour days as it is and am only just now putting away the books at 12.30 am.

HR is only barely in the door and already the rot is setting in!

Attack the post not the poster.

whiteandlight · 09-01-2014 2:05am

This thread is about S&S and class periods. It is not a platform for management/teacher bashing or comparisons to other professions. Infractions have been handed out.

Back on topic please and some reminders:
1. No sweeping generalisations about the profession.
2. Attack the post not the poster.
3. Use the report button if you have an issue with a post or if the thread is going off topic, thats what it is for.
4. Stay on topic.

Outsidethebox · 11-01-2014 11:24pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

On a separate note an incidental inspection occurred of another teacher in my school. I was in the class afterwards with a sixth year group. On arrival for my class the inspector asked for a few minutes to discuss with the teacher they had just visited. The inspector delayed the start of my class for 14 minutes [I timed her] even though there was an empty office right beside.

This might sound a bit crazy but did it occur to you at any stage in that "14 minutes" to open the door and say sorry, but I have 20 odd kids here waiting for class. Could you kindly go to the "empty office right beside" the classroom?

Or was it better to wait outside rubbing your hands watching the minutes go by whilst thinking to yourself how your comrades on the s&s thread will love this further abuse of the teaching profession?

whiteandlight · 11-01-2014 11:26pm

Outsidethebox wrote: »

This might sound a bit crazy but did it occur to you at any stage in that "14 minutes" to open the door and say sorry, but I have 20 odd kids here waiting for class. Could you kindly go to the "empty office right beside" the classroom?

Or was it better to wait outside rubbing your hands watching the minutes go by whilst thinking to yourself how your comrades on the s&s thread will love this further abuse of the teaching profession?

Be careful with your tone and do not attack the poster. There is nothing in the post to suggest that the teacher in question did not ask this question. The first paragraph is fine, the second is a little ott.
Thanks

Outsidethebox · 12-01-2014 12:29am

Nothing to suggest they did either though.

A question to you musicmental. Do you know any teacher that would stand outside a room for 14 minutes in this instance without either moving the inspector or moving to a different room?

whiteandlight · 12-01-2014 12:37am

Outsidethebox wrote: »

Nothing to suggest they did either though.

A question to you musicmental. Do you know any teacher that would stand outside a room for 14 minutes in this instance without either moving the inspector or moving to a different room?

Yes, in particular unsure, non permanent or newly qualified teachers who are nervous of rocking the boat.

Also in my current school there isn't room to swing a cat and finding an classroom would be unlikely. There's standard classes being taught in music rooms/home ec/science labs. Schools at capacity.

In a previous school for example the inspector pm a drive by actually lived beside the school. In that case I'd definitely have bitten my tongue and ranted later rather than possibly cause agro for the school.

Not sure about timing it but I would have taken note of how long it took in case of parental complaints later. While your scenario is one possibility there are others

Peter Flynt · 12-01-2014 12:37am

Outsidethebox wrote: »

Nothing to suggest they did either though.

A question to you musicmental. Do you know any teacher that would stand outside a room for 14 minutes in this instance without either moving the inspector or moving to a different room?

It was not my responsibility to either move the inspector or move to a different room.

The room the inspector held up my class in is the room assigned to me by the management of my school.

Love the tone of your post. . . Respect those whom you perceive to be "your betters".

I stood outside with the DP waiting for my class to begin.

whiteandlight · 12-01-2014 12:38am

Peter Flynt wrote: »

It was not my responsibility to either move the inspector or move to a different room.

The room the inspector held up my class in is the room assigned to me by the management of my school.

Love the tone of your post. . . Respect those whom you perceive to be "your betters".

I stood outside with the DP waiting for my class to begin.

Peter please report posts where you have an issue with tone. We are trying to keep debate and discussion open but cannot have every thread descending to issues between posts. I had already politely pulled up the post, no need to repeat

Peter Flynt · 12-01-2014 12:42am

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Peter please report posts where you have an issue with tone. We are trying to keep debate and discussion open but cannot have every thread descending to issues between posts. I had already politely pulled up the post, no need to repeat

Since outsidethebox raied the issue. . .I addressed it.

My room is a laboratory in which I had a planned demonstration. . . which had to be cancelled.

Let's make it clear though. . . there are many apologists on here defending those senior on the basis of "well what did the teacher do?"

whiteandlight · 12-01-2014 12:46am

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Since outsidethebox raied the issue. . .I addressed it.

My room is a laboratory in which I had a planned demonstration. . . which had to be cancelled.

Let's make it clear though. . . there are many apologists on here defending those senior on the basis of "well what did the teacher do?"

since polite didn't work.

Do not in future reply to any post where you have an issue with tone. Please report the post, leave it to the moderators and do not get involved in dragging a thread off topic.

Peterflynt and outsidethebox the thread is about S&S. Do not go off topic again

Do not reply to this post on thread

whiteandlight · 12-01-2014 12:48am

Back on topic. TUI school. Our class periods are between 35/40 minutes and we nominated 5. I don't know of anyone who has been called for 4/5 in the same week though that may change now with the opt out

implausible · 12-01-2014 12:59am

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Back on topic. TUI school. Our class periods are between 35/40 minutes and we nominated 5. I don't know of anyone who has been called for 4/5 in the same week though that may change now with the opt out

Same here. No-one is opting out afaik. I picked first class on a Tues and all of my frees on a Friday (my easiest day). You can nearly predict when you'll be called, so I treat Tues morning as gone. If I'm not on, it's an extra bonus. Most I've done is three periods in one week once since Sept.

whiteandlight · 12-01-2014 1:03am

implausible wrote: »

Same here. No-one is opting out afaik. I picked first class on a Tues and all of my frees on a Friday (my easiest day). You can nearly predict when you'll be called, so I treat Tues morning as gone. If I'm not on, it's an extra bonus. Most I've done is three periods in one week once since Sept.

Ditto though the max I've been called for is two. Not sure about opt outs in my school

km79 · 12-01-2014 1:11am

Lot of opt outs in our school . large school so means a larger staff obviously leading to more opt outs BUT also more s and s ......

whiteandlight · 12-01-2014 1:14am

km79 wrote: »

Lot of opt outs in our school . large school so means a larger staff obviously leading to more opt outs BUT also more s and s ......

That's frustrating for you. Possibly need to keep track of your classes worked so you don't exceed the 43 hours?

Outsidethebox · 12-01-2014 1:37am

TUI member myself.

Opting in. In fairness to our DP/P they cover a fair amount of classes.

When down for S&S I just take the classes down to my room if its free or take my work with me so its no big hassle. Plus Because of car pooling am there 9-4 anyway.

Off topic material removed as per warning.

seavill · 12-01-2014 10:02am

A lot of people in my school are on about opting out but are confused as to whether they can or not. They think they can. I believe they can't though. None would have read hr or any asti publications.
I think a lot of people will get a fright based on my and other schools I know if the dept actually check of everyone that opts out was actually eligible

spurious · 12-01-2014 12:34pm

Is there any precedent anywhere in any sector for a worker having to pay NOT to do over-time?
Surely a first year Law student would be able to kick that one out. It's laughable.

evolving_doors · 12-01-2014 3:28pm

spurious wrote: »

Is there any precedent anywhere in any sector for a worker having to pay NOT to do over-time?
Surely a first year Law student would be able to kick that one out. It's laughable.

Well...(and I'm not being an apologist for S & S just devils advocate and all that)..
Hasn't it be done by everyone for free before benchmarking etc! Whatever about the substitution...wasnt the 'yard duty' done for free ?
In a sense it is just an extra duty being imposed...like compulsory assessing/correcting of your own JC students...
Many jobs introduce extra processes...the fact that you can buy your way out could be argued to be a bonus!

teacherhead · 12-01-2014 4:14pm

spurious wrote: »

Is there any precedent anywhere in any sector for a worker having to pay NOT to do over-time?
Surely a first year Law student would be able to kick that one out. It's laughable.

its nuts alright. The fact that its part of an 'agreement' would remove any legal obstacle id say, though im no expert.

acequion · 12-01-2014 5:42pm

Armelodie wrote: »

Well...(and I'm not being an apologist for S & S just devils advocate and all that)..
usen't it be done by everyone for free before benchmarking etc! Whatever about the substitution...wasnt the 'yard duty' done for free ?

Yes,but in those days it was recognised as a voluntary extra which a teacher could actually refuse to do. I don't know of any teacher who did refuse because there was a sort of gentleman's agreement about it and it was left to each school to sort it out their own way. I remember in those days when my timetable arrived in the post around the end of August, it would be accompanied by a nice letter from the principal actually asking if you were ok to do the S&S again that year.That's how we were able to work to rule by refusing to do S&S during the 2001 strike and still be paid. And that's probably why they second guessed us this time round and made it part of the contract through FEMPI.

Small wonder teachers are so resentful about it.

evolving_doors · 12-01-2014 6:12pm

acequion wrote: »

Yes,but in those days it was recognised as a voluntary extra which a teacher could actually refuse to do. I don't know of any teacher who did refuse because there was a sort of gentleman's agreement about it and it was left to each school to sort it out their own way. I remember in those days when my timetable arrived in the post around the end of August, it would be accompanied by a nice letter from the principal actually asking if you were ok to do the S&S again that year.That's how we were able to work to rule by refusing to do S&S during the 2001 strike and still be paid. And that's probably why they second guessed us this time round and made it part of the contract through FEMPI.

Small wonder teachers are so resentful about it.

Ok thanks for that..did the substitution work the exact same way under the gentleman's agreement...nominate 5 and do 3 ?

This was the reason for me being against the other voluntary stuff being thrown into croke park..once the goodwill is tied in and measured it is a mess to untangle it.. I could imagine people throwing it back in our faces too "shur aren't ye getting paid to do the extra curricular?..and the summer holidays joe..."
I suppose when you look over the long term with retirements etc. the numbers doing the S&S will gradually increase.

acequion · 12-01-2014 10:23pm

Armelodie wrote: »

Ok thanks for that..did the substitution work the exact same way under the gentleman's agreement...nominate 5 and do 3 ?

This was the reason for me being against the other voluntary stuff being thrown into croke park..once the goodwill is tied in and measured it is a mess to untangle it.. I could imagine people throwing it back in our faces too "shur aren't ye getting paid to do the extra curricular?..and the summer holidays joe..."
I suppose when you look over the long term with retirements etc. the numbers doing the S&S will gradually increase.

Like I said,each school did its own thing with regard to S&S so it varied a lot.But when I first got a TWT contract in 1997,in that school you nominated two to do two [if I remember correctly] and you also did yard duty for one full lunch break each week.No one really seemed to mind back then.Times were more innocent perhaps and the demands on teachers were nowhere near what they are today.After the strike S&S becoming optional with pay seemed perfectly natural and progressive in the Ireland of the new century. What we have now is completely regressive and serves no body's interests but unsecured bond holders.

And I completely agree about extra curricular and CP hours. Not only will it be like you say,but it will also force everybody to, as our good friend Colm O Rourke said in the Sindo,"make a contribution". You just can't officialise the vocational nature of this job.

mockingjay · 13-01-2014 11:27am

Do any of you know if the Department have posted the official form to opt out on yet?

Peter Flynt · 13-01-2014 11:35am

mockingjay wrote: »

Do any of you know if the Department have posted the official form to opt out on yet?

It'll probably be part of the circular to be issued this week.

mockingjay · 13-01-2014 11:48am

There's a lot of warning in our staffroom about pension implications, can anyone explain this in more detail here. It can get quite confusing. I have only been teaching three years, but will probably be retiring in 20 years at 65, would it have a big impact to opt out now. I find it hard to believe that it won't be opened up again under a new Government. Is this wishful thinking???

solerina · 13-01-2014 1:07pm

mockingjay wrote: »

There's a lot of warning in our staffroom about pension implications, can anyone explain this in more detail here. It can get quite confusing. I have only been teaching three years, but will probably be retiring in 20 years at 65, would it have a big impact to opt out now. I find it hard to believe that it won't be opened up again under a new Government. Is this wishful thinking???

I am not so sure about pensions but are you sure you 'can' retire at 65...I know there was a bit of a hullabaloo here about people who started teaching after 2003 (those who started before didn't apparently) having to stay on until they were 68 ?? or leave on much reduced pension. Can anyone confirm if this is true as it would affect mockingjays plans.

In fairness 20 years is a long time and a lot has happened in the past 20 years so who knows what will actually happen !!!

S & S and class periods

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