Why Does Connor Murray start over Eoin Reddan?

dtpc191991 · 09-06-2012 6:56pm

Murray

Clegg wrote: »

Kidney bottled it. We were having problems with our new gameplan but thats to be expected. We should have stuck with it but we ditched the new gameplan and went right back to square one.

I don't think Murray even had a bad game tonight. The decision which baffled me the most was the substitution of Sexton. He was playing decently enough. ROG came on and proceeded to kick away our best attacking opportunity of the half. If Sexton was injured then the substitution was understandable. If not then Kidney has a lot to answer for.

It's a sad thing really cos this is what happened to Leinster under Schmidt and Wales under Gatland. It took 5 0r 6 games of silly errors and dropping balls but once it came together both sides became two of the best at their respective levels. Had we persisted I think Ireland has the players to pull that game off. No that game 100% suits the talent we've got. two things have to change.

1. A new head and backs coach are needed that are willing to implement that kind of gameplan.

2. The IRFU need to sacrafice their results at all costs (which has clearly failed) directive and allow for a poor Six Nations while we develop our new game.

TomLamp · 09-06-2012 7:19pm

Murray

Murray was very poor today but he shouldn't be the scapegoat. Hes pretty much a victim of the Munster hype machine and unhelped by a national coach who doesnt want to believe that hes nowhere near ready for this level.

Fishooks12 · 09-06-2012 7:32pm

TomLamp wrote: »

Murray was very poor today but he shouldn't be the scapegoat. Hes pretty much a victim of the Munster hype machine and unhelped by a national coach who doesnt want to believe that hes nowhere near ready for this level.

The ole Munster hype machine eh? I suppose players from other provinces never get hyped up at all

In saying that I often visit the hype machine on my days off to see how it's ticking along. Pat Geraghty and McGahon usually pick a player out of a hat and the lucky one goes in.

B0X · 09-06-2012 7:44pm

Murray

Fishooks12 wrote: »

he was slightly faster at the bass

:pac:

Fishooks12 · 09-06-2012 7:48pm

B0X wrote: »

:pac:

Reddan can't slap for ****!

totallegend · 09-06-2012 8:26pm

To answer the initial question, why does Murray start ahead of Reddan, the answer is:

When Kidney took over in 2008, Reddan had been first choice for the previous Six Nations and summer tour. Since then, he has never been picked for a major game when there has been anything like a credible alternative (credible in Kidney's opinion, i.e. the Munster guy, that is).

Under Kidney, Reddan has started against:

Canada in Autumn 2008; hardly a ringing endorsement
Fiji in Autumn 2009; see above
South Africa and New Zealand in Autumn 2010; O'Leary was injured
Scotland, Wales and England in Six Nations 2011; O'Leary was injured
France and England in 2011 RWC warm-ups; rotation going on
Australia in RWC 2011; first-choice
Scotland and England in 2012 Six Nations; Murray was injured

So, that is one start in a meaningful international match over four years when the Munster first choice has been available. That's one start during the period when he's been first choice SH for the best team in Europe.
That one start coincided with Ireland's most important win in the pro era, yet as soon as Murray had got enough time on the pitch to make it any way feasible, Kidney dropped him again and what happened? We flopped miserably.

There is no rational explanation other than that Kidney has some sort of major issue with Reddan. Whether it's personal or not, I have no idea, but it's pretty bizarre whatever way you look at it; Kidney, of course, was Munster coach when Reddan went to Wasps in 2005 (after Reddan was signed during Gaffney's reign).

Kidney just does not want to pick him and it's been a massive handicap to this team. It's one of the major failings of Kidney's time in charge and just another reason why the sooner Kidney is gone, the better.

onlyrocknroll · 09-06-2012 8:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The answer to the dangerously pointed question that the OP asks is that Kidney likes a physical scrum half that can play as a sweeper in defence.

+1

Why is the question in the title of the thread not the same as the one in the poll?

To add more scope for Murray bashing?

.ak · 09-06-2012 9:46pm

Murray

totallegend wrote: »

There is no rational explanation other than that Kidney has some sort of major issue with Reddan. Whether it's personal or not, I have no idea, but it's pretty bizarre whatever way you look at it; Kidney, of course, was Munster coach when Reddan went to Wasps in 2005 (after Reddan was signed during Gaffney's reign).

Kidney just does not want to pick him and it's been a massive handicap to this team. It's one of the major failings of Kidney's time in charge and just another reason why the sooner Kidney is gone, the better.

It's absolutely sickening to think Kidney gets paid a huge sum of money (a lot of that is the money WE as a fanbase put into the union) and yet the team is suffering in this case because Kidney won't pick Reddan because HE has an issue with him and nothing to do with form. It's scandalous, and downright selfish. I've often tried to think what other reason there would be, but I can't think of any. Absolute disgrace.

chancer12 · 09-06-2012 11:57pm

Murray

.ak wrote: »

It's absolutely sickening to think Kidney gets paid a huge sum of money (a lot of that is the money WE as a fanbase put into the union) and yet the team is suffering in this case because Kidney won't pick Reddan because HE has an issue with him and nothing to do with form. It's scandalous, and downright selfish. I've often tried to think what other reason there would be, but I can't think of any. Absolute disgrace.

TBH,think the IRFU have an issue with those who played overseas, Leo Cullen is another example of a player always being sidelined for those of lesser ability. Either that or the 'red eyed mist' where Munster players are automatically selected irregardless of form

matthew8 · 10-06-2012 12:05am

Murray

Because Kidney for some reason hates keeping provincial halfbacks together.

Podge_irl · 10-06-2012 5:10am

At this stage I tend to agree with the idea that Kidney has some kind of problem with Reddan, personal or otherwise. He never gets a fair shot at the jersey despite him being in place for most of Ireland's best performances.

flyswatter · 10-06-2012 5:13am

Murray

Prefer Reddan, he's the best we have but I think his defence is suspect at times. Really want to see Marshall given a shot.

Klunk_NZ · 10-06-2012 5:22am

Murray

Ireland never even looked like breaching the line from set play because the ball was predictably distributed from the halves every time. Incredibly easy player to read. I would opt for a less reliable player with more flair, I am unfamiliar with the Irish contenders but could observe the halves as the biggest issue offensively.

Higher · 10-06-2012 12:44pm

Murray

Bit over the top no?

Yes Murray was ****, and yes he doesnt deserve to be starting but he wasn't so bad that he deserves his own thread!

McFadden and Zebo were disasters on the wing. I lost count of the amount of times Zebo was completely out of position. Earls the same. McFadden was dealing with 2 man overlaps constantly and himself and Earls had poor communication.

Fishooks12 · 10-06-2012 12:51pm

Higher wrote: »

Bit over the top no?

Yes Murray was ****, and yes he doesnt deserve to be starting but he wasn't so bad that he deserves his own thread!

McFadden and Zebo were disasters on the wing. I lost count of the amount of times Zebo was completely out of position. Earls the same. McFadden was dealing with 2 man overlaps constantly and himself and Earls had poor communication.

Earls was far from adisaster. Our most dangerous looking back yesterday

Higher · 10-06-2012 12:58pm

Murray

I'm referring to positionally.

Our most dangerous back was Sexton to be honest as he was the only one to create a try scoring opportunity. Even then, neither Sexton or Earls could be described as 'dangerous'

Tox56 · 10-06-2012 1:00pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Higher wrote: »

Bit over the top no?

Yes Murray was ****, and yes he doesnt deserve to be starting but he wasn't so bad that he deserves his own thread!

McFadden and Zebo were disasters on the wing. I lost count of the amount of times Zebo was completely out of position. Earls the same. McFadden was dealing with 2 man overlaps constantly and himself and Earls had poor communication.

Earls was far from adisaster. Our most dangerous looking back yesterday

I actually think BOD got some unfair
criticism, he didn't look electric with the ball like Earls, but he is so good at creating space for other players and on several occasions the space was there but nobody was on his shoulder quick enough.

He foolishly tried to offload anyway once or twice, but I think the NZ defence was there to be opened up, we just didn't have the support runners they had. I think there was one instance with BOD offloading to Earls and making a good break that showed what was possible.

jm08 · 10-06-2012 1:21pm

totallegend wrote: »

To answer the initial question, why does Murray start ahead of Reddan, the answer is:

When Kidney took over in 2008, Reddan had been first choice for the previous Six Nations and summer tour. Since then, he has never been picked for a major game when there has been anything like a credible alternative (credible in Kidney's opinion, i.e. the Munster guy, that is).

Under Kidney, Reddan has started against:

Canada in Autumn 2008; hardly a ringing endorsement
Fiji in Autumn 2009; see above
South Africa and New Zealand in Autumn 2010; O'Leary was injured
Scotland, Wales and England in Six Nations 2011; O'Leary was injured
France and England in 2011 RWC warm-ups; rotation going on
Australia in RWC 2011; first-choice
Scotland and England in 2012 Six Nations; Murray was injured

So, that is one start in a meaningful international match over four years when the Munster first choice has been available. That's one start during the period when he's been first choice SH for the best team in Europe.
That one start coincided with Ireland's most important win in the pro era, yet as soon as Murray had got enough time on the pitch to make it any way feasible, Kidney dropped him again and what happened? We flopped miserably.

There is no rational explanation other than that Kidney has some sort of major issue with Reddan. Whether it's personal or not, I have no idea, but it's pretty bizarre whatever way you look at it; Kidney, of course, was Munster coach when Reddan went to Wasps in 2005 (after Reddan was signed during Gaffney's reign).

Kidney just does not want to pick him and it's been a massive handicap to this team. It's one of the major failings of Kidney's time in charge and just another reason why the sooner Kidney is gone, the better.

If Reddan was playing so well at that time (08-09), surely his coach at Wasps would have preferred him over Tomas O'Leary for the Lions. The whole of the Wasps coaching team were the selectors for the Lions!

Edit: The Grand Slam was Ireland's most important win in the pro era. The win in Paris in 2000 would be well up there as well as some of the first wins against SA & Aus here.

irishbucsfan · 10-06-2012 1:29pm

jm08 wrote: »

If Reddan was playing so well at that time (08-09), surely his coach at Wasps would have preferred him over Tomas O'Leary for the Lions. The whole of the Wasps coaching team were the selectors for the Lions!

Edit: The Grand Slam was Ireland's most important win in the pro era. The win in Paris in 2000 would be well up there as well as some of the first wins against SA & Aus here.

That's a good point, however Reddan is a far better player right now than he ever was for Wasps. His play for Leinster is far better. Ireland's success with him starting shows that.

Fishooks12 · 10-06-2012 1:29pm

jm08 wrote: »

If Reddan was playing so well at that time (08-09), surely his coach at Wasps would have preferred him over Tomas O'Leary for the Lions. The whole of the Wasps coaching team were the selectors for the Lions!

Edit: The Grand Slam was Ireland's most important win in the pro era. The win in Paris in 2000 would be well up there as well as some of the first wins against SA & Aus here.

I agree for once. Even in 09 the people calling for TOL to be dropped were looking for Stringer

Tox56 · 10-06-2012 1:30pm

Surely they couldn't pick someone for the Lions based on club form alone

Fishooks12 · 10-06-2012 1:32pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Surely they couldn't pick someone for the Lions based on club form alone

jm08 · 10-06-2012 1:34pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's a good point, however Reddan is a far better player right now than he ever was for Wasps. His play for Leinster is far better. Ireland's success with him starting shows that.

He maybe a better player (usually down to when Leinster are dominating), but if he was that superior a player he would be the clear first choice for leinster (like Sexton always starts the big games). Boss was the starter against Clermont for instance, not Reddan.

Fishooks12 · 10-06-2012 1:40pm

jm08 wrote: »

He maybe a better player (usually down to when Leinster are dominating), but if he was that superior a player he would be the clear first choice for leinster (like Sexton always starts the big games). Boss was the starter against Clermont for instance, not Reddan.

Boss is better than Murray too though. Murray is starting for Munster because the alternative is going to be Williams or Stringer

Tox56 · 10-06-2012 1:49pm

I just can't understand why Kidney appears to show so little faith in Reddan and a Reddan/Sexton partnership.

He doesnt even appear to subscribe to the idea of launching Reddan off the bench to speed up the game, as his substitution always appears to coincide with ROG moving to 10.

irishbucsfan · 10-06-2012 1:49pm

jm08 wrote: »

He maybe a better player (usually down to when Leinster are dominating), but if he was that superior a player he would be the clear first choice for leinster (like Sexton always starts the big games). Boss was the starter against Clermont for instance, not Reddan.

Reddan starts the majority of games now though.

I'd be fine with Murray playing to be honest. I'd be fine with it so long as our half back selection is based around a cohesive game plan, rather than just a copy and paste Murray + Sexton for 60 minutes, Reddan + O'Gara for 20 minutes.

If we had gone out to keep possession, play it slowly and use first receivers around the fringes then Murray would be more suited. But we were attacking with width and playing with tempo, starting Murray over Reddan made no sense to me.

jm08 · 10-06-2012 1:53pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Boss is better than Murray too though. Murray is starting for Munster because the alternative is going to be Williams or Stringer

Boss is injured.

What you really meant to say is that Munster let Tomas O'Leary go to LI because they are happy with Stringer & Williams as SHs. Murray had stiff competition at Munster to become No. 1.

jm08 · 10-06-2012 2:00pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Reddan starts the majority of games now though.

I'd be fine with Murray playing to be honest. I'd be fine with it so long as our half back selection is based around a cohesive game plan, rather than just a copy and paste Murray + Sexton for 60 minutes, Reddan + O'Gara for 20 minutes.

If we had gone out to keep possession, play it slowly and use first receivers around the fringes then Murray would be more suited. But we were attacking with width and playing with tempo, starting Murray over Reddan made no sense to me.

Boss starts all the games when Leinster are up against a big pack (and generally, the Away games).

Reddan is hardly the future either. Invaluable experience for Murray and the rest of the young players - they now know what they have to do.

In 3/4 years time when Ireland beat NZ in Lansdowne Rd, they will refer back to these hammerings down in NZ as invaluable experience.

jm08 · 10-06-2012 2:07pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I just can't understand why Kidney appears to show so little faith in Reddan and a Reddan/Sexton partnership.

He doesnt even appear to subscribe to the idea of launching Reddan off the bench to speed up the game, as his substitution always appears to coincide with ROG moving to 10.

Speed up the game against the ABs? This isn't Aironi on a Friday night in the RDS!

.ak · 10-06-2012 2:07pm

Murray

matthew8 wrote: »

Because Kidney for some reason hates keeping provincial halfbacks together.

He put ROG and TOL together okay...

Why Does Connor Murray start over Eoin Reddan?

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