Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page

Kalimah · 01-03-2016 11:20pm

In many ways I'm delighted this is all online, but my God trying to decipher bastardized Latin is a trial. I've found my great great great grandfather's marriage in 1819 but of course it's only the two names and another bit I can't make out.
And as for the deaths-it's more or less a shopping list.

pedroeibar1 · 02-03-2016 12:06am

Kalimah wrote: »

In many ways I'm delighted this is all online, but my God trying to decipher bastardized Latin is a trial. I've found my great great great grandfather's marriage in 1819 but of course it's only the two names and another bit I can't make out.
And as for the deaths-it's more or less a shopping list.

Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum.....:p
Post a screen shot of it here and those on here will have a crack at deciphering it.

Kalimah · 02-03-2016 12:21am

I will thanks! Actually I've been on the 1821 census for Cavan also- most of it survives- and have more or less pinned down my 3 times great grandfather to his birth in 1795 plus very possibly HIS father born about 1760. Don't think you could do much better in Ireland!

montgo · 02-03-2016 11:19am

Hi,

I am trying to decipher the word following Wall - looks like Printers?
Here is the link to Stephen's baptism on 15 Sept 1851, left hand side page.

Thanks.

pinkypinky · 02-03-2016 11:34am

I wish you hadn't said printers - that's all I can see now!!

But it's definitely a P at the start - compare to Patrick written elsewhere on the page. The last letter of the word might not be part of it. If you look at the ampersand (or at least what passes for one) down the page, I think it is & between the two parents names. This would leave P--t as the word?

Tangent: on the top right of the page, does it really say bastard and then incestuous?!

montgo · 02-03-2016 11:45am

Yikes, I hadn't looked on the following page.

Yes, I see what you mean and that the word is most likely P--t. Coincidentally, I think I posted this page before as I was also trying to make out the name of the sponsor for Francis Marnane on 13 October.

Hermy · 02-03-2016 12:20pm

Just looking for an opinion on the note written after the last entry on the left page which seems to imply that Patrick Moore who was baptised Nov 18th 1860 may have later married Veronica Smith in Kilcloon parish in 1935. It doesn't match anything in the civil indexes and would mean he was very old when he married.

pinkypinky · 02-03-2016 12:37pm

Hermy - is that a baptism record we're looking at? It would make him very old indeed. Have you found him in the censuses?

Hermy · 02-03-2016 12:45pm

Yeah - it's a baptism.
My hunch is that he married Anne Taaffe in 1894 (see 1911 Census) but I'll need a civil cert to confirm.

pinkypinky · 02-03-2016 12:47pm

I'd try to trace this Veronica Smith as well and see what that throws up. There's always the possibility that the priest wrote it on the wrong entry.

Hermy · 02-03-2016 12:51pm

I think it may be a mistake. I can't make sense of it otherwise.

tabbey · 02-03-2016 11:50pm

There was a Veronica Smith married in 1934, in Kells, not to Moore, nor in Kilcloon, perhaps put under the wrong entry.

All the people on this page would have been 74 or 75 by 1935.
As a general rule somebody marrying a person this age, would be doing so in expectation of inheritance, so would have made sure it was registered. Perhaps a relative of Moore blocked this on the grounds of incapacity, after the priest made the note in the register.

Hermy · 03-03-2016 12:22am

Indeed tabbey - all sorts of imponderables to consider - but I've decided it's a mistake. It's easier that way.:)

montgo · 10-03-2016 10:43am

A small query on a marriage entry here

Left side, on 5 Feb 1815, Toby Purcel & Honor, etc. On last line, "James Purcell, his nephews" or is just nephew?

pinkypinky · 10-03-2016 10:52am

Found it - think it's on the following page after the link.

Nephews I would say.

montgo · 10-03-2016 11:03am

Oops, sorry.

Thanks for confirmation.

pedroeibar1 · 10-03-2016 12:58pm

I agree, the 's' is similar to the 's' in presence .

pedroeibar1 · 14-03-2016 3:40pm

Another - a decrypt from the 1901 Census "Where born" - I can make out Co. Mayo from the bottom line, anyone have an idea of the over-written words? (I have an idea of one word but do not want to influence a view....
Thanks,
P.

pinkypinky · 14-03-2016 4:03pm

Can you link to the census, Pedro? Helpful to see other words in the same hand.

pedroeibar1 · 14-03-2016 4:17pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Can you link to the census, Pedro? Helpful to see other words in the same hand.

Thanks Pinky - unfortunately he is a widower living on his own, so there is nothing to compare with on his return, The return for the Street is here but it would have been the enumeratory who made the correction.

pinkypinky · 14-03-2016 4:46pm

It's still helpful to see the whole entry: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000552757/

I'd guess the words on top are Meath some small word then Mayo.

Hermy · 14-03-2016 4:52pm

Meath St Mary's ???

pedroeibar1 · 14-03-2016 4:57pm

I think the top line is Westport, Mayo ?????????

Hermy · 14-03-2016 5:42pm

Do you think both lines are the same? ie Westport, Mayo

pedroeibar1 · 14-03-2016 6:23pm

Hermy wrote: »

Do you think both lines are the same? ie Westport, Mayo

Yes, I think it is the same on the lower line / below but I’m less sure. On the top line the lowercase ‘p’ of ‘port’ is an indicator?
PK was 72 when the census was taken and died a few months later, so filling forms might not have been easy.

Westport written like this

tabbey · 14-03-2016 10:37pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I think the top line is Westport, Mayo ?????????

on balance of probability, yes.

pedroeibar1 · 14-03-2016 11:37pm

There also is a Newport co. Mayo
another has seen north west Mayo.

He is the penultimate of my '16' and while I have his marriage & death, and year /county of birth (from 1901 census) , I'd like to firm up a bit more on his parents & baptism. I'll start on the Parish registers......
Thanks all.

The Chieftain · 15-03-2016 3:24am

I would be grateful if some of you kind folk could offer an opinion on the address associated with the February 29th, 1840 marriage of John Redmond and Mary Lawless, which can be seen (in between some March entries) at
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634011#page/114/mode/1up
That last word, the address, trails off awfully, but is Bally???

The Chieftain · 15-03-2016 7:48am

And another request! I noticed this 1758 baptism in the original register many years ago, but with additional info I am now of the opinion that this is the baptism of a brother of my g-g-g-g-grandmother, and so the parents are (hopefully), my g-g-g-g-g-grandparents.
The baptism of interest can be seen at
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634033#page/17/mode/1up
There is only one word I can't make out, the second surname for the mother. I make the entry to be

"July ye 14th, 1758
John Cullen was born at Ballys.h.i.t(e) in ye Parish of Our Lady's Island, son to Nicholas & Catherine Johnson, alias ??? Ghoshops were Stephen Sinnot and Ellen Kelly."

I would note that in two other baptisms for the same parents, the surname at issue is even less legible - this is the best version. In the other two versions, though, the mother's surnames are the other way around, i.e. Catherine ??? alias Johnson. Which one is likely her maiden name?

Finally, for those who took note of the location, Ballys.h.i.t(e) is the Gaelic for townland of the wind. For some reason, the OS emended this to a revised official spelling of Ballyhit.

spurious · 15-03-2016 9:49am

Going on the 'ghoshops'

could it be Spain?

tabbey · 15-03-2016 11:35am

Catherine Johnson - could she be a Tracey?

P. Breathnach · 15-03-2016 11:37am

spurious wrote: »

Going on the 'ghoshops' could it be Spain?

Whatever the word is, it appears on other entries, and seems to mean sponsors.

spurious · 15-03-2016 11:38am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Whatever the word is, it appears on other entries, and seems to mean sponsors.

Yes, that's why I thought the surname might start with an Sp.

KildareFan · 15-03-2016 11:43am

It looks like Shawn or Shaun....

pedroeibar1 · 15-03-2016 12:39pm

The word ‘alias’ signifies widow as it is also used more clearly in the entry below. I’d suggest her maiden name is the one first used, her former married name being the other. ‘Gliosh’ word relates to sponsors, as it is used throughout. I wonder if it is a Yola word?

Baile Shiota is the Irish place name from the word shiota, a sheet. (Wind is gaoith, hence for e.g. Geesala in Mayo, Ardnageehy in Cork and Mastergeehy in Kerry.)

1637 Bally****te & Couleblow (Pat. Browne)
1654-6 Bally****ts
1655c Balli****t
1659 Balle****e
1659 Balle****e
1660c Bally****ts and Cobblow (Wm. Browne)
1667 Bally****t (Rich. Nunn)
1685c B:****t
1690c Bally****t als Ballyhitt & Coldblow
1734 Ballyhite als Bally****e (Millward-Hughes)
1830 Ballyhitt
1830 Ballyhitt
1840 Bally****t & Colbowe
1840 Ballyhitt
1840 Baile Cheit, 'Keith's town'

KildareFan · 15-03-2016 1:36pm

Since Catherine's surname is Johnson, could the alias refer to an alternative spelling, Shaun, Irish for John?????

The Chieftain · 15-03-2016 4:13pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The word ‘alias’ signifies widow as it is also used more clearly in the entry below. I’d suggest her maiden name is the one first used, her former married name being the other. ‘Gliosh’ word relates to sponsors, as it is used throughout. I wonder if it is a Yola word?

Baile Shiota is the Irish place name from the word shiota, a sheet. (Wind is gaoith, hence for e.g. Geesala in Mayo, Ardnageehy in Cork and Mastergeehy in Kerry.)
...

Thank you for that link, I was unaware of it - can I ask where did the list by year come from?
I am not an expert on Gaelic, despite the fact that I spent years where the only subject I studied in English was English itself (e.g. had to translate Latin and French to Irish, and v.v!). So I tend to rely on reference works for name meanings, in this case the book "Treasures of the Landscape (County Wexford's Rural Landscape)", where the etymology of Ballyhit is twice given as "townland of the gust of wind".

The Chieftain · 15-03-2016 4:20pm

spurious wrote: »

Going on the 'ghoshops' could it be Spain?

The pastor from 1740 to 1763 was Rev. James Nicholas French -his signature is on the entry in question. He used variations on "ghoshops". His successor from 1763, Rev. Mun Stafford, used a slightly different spelling "gossop". As already stated, this word has to mean sponsors - would be interesting to understand its etymology.

The Chieftain · 15-03-2016 4:22pm

KildareFan wrote: »

Since Catherine's surname is Johnson, could the alias refer to an alternative spelling, Shaun, Irish for John?????

Thanks to all for the comments, andwhen I look at it again myself, I agree it looks like "Shaun". However, when another child, James, was baptized to the same couple on 19th April 1756, the mother's name does not look like "Shaun", please see
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634033#page/15/mode/1up
and Nov/dec/ 1753, baptism of Richard Cullen
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634033#page/12/mode/1up
In these latter two cases, could it be "Nunn" ? - which would be very interesting, if so!

spurious · 15-03-2016 6:02pm

The Chieftain wrote: »

The pastor from 1740 to 1763 was Rev. James Nicholas French -his signature is on the entry in question. He used variations on "ghoshops". His successor from 1763, Rev. Mun Stafford, used a slightly different spelling "gossop". As already stated, this word has to mean sponsors - would be interesting to understand its etymology.

It must be olde English script.

This link might help. (.pdf)

**edit Came across this interactive tutorial, which is very good indeed: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/

pedroeibar1 · 15-03-2016 6:51pm

The Chieftain wrote: »

Thank you for that link, I was unaware of it - can I ask where did the list by year come from?

Same link, same page , half way down click on “text records”.

BUT look and spell Sroshops backwards......

P. Breathnach · 15-03-2016 7:32pm

The Chieftain wrote: »

Thank you for that link, I was unaware of it - can I ask where did the list by year come from?
I am not an expert on Gaelic, despite the fact that I spent years where the only subject I studied in English was English itself (e.g. had to translate Latin and French to Irish, and v.v!). So I tend to rely on reference works for name meanings, in this case the book "Treasures of the Landscape (County Wexford's Rural Landscape)", where the etymology of Ballyhit is twice given as "townland of the gust of wind".

The gust of wind explanation is plausible, as it is one of the definitions of siota in Dineen's dictionary.

pedroeibar1 · 15-03-2016 8:00pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The gust of wind explanation is plausible, as it is one of the definitions of siota in Dineen's dictionary.

Not in the first edition .. it's OT so let's not go there. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bíonn dhá insint ar gach aon scéal. [/FONT]:)

The Chieftain · 15-03-2016 9:05pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Same link, same page , half way down click on “text records”.

BUT look and spell Sroshops backwards......

Thanks for both. I confess that I don't know what to make of the latter point!
- A bit weird, why would they do this?
- While this backward spelling may work for the word as used from 1740-1763 by Fr. French, it does not appear to fit the variant ("gossops") used by Fr. Stafford from 1763- ca 1808.

jos28 · 28-03-2016 10:58am

Looking for a bit of help please. I'm searching for anyone with the surname Glover IN Castletownbere in the 1820s. I have one record from 1822.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a303e20155788

Just looking through the register which has baptisms and marriages from 1819 and I found this from 1820 but I reckon it's the same thing ???

Jellybaby1 · 28-03-2016 11:08am

To: jos28: The IrishGenealogy record is the transcription of the original handwritten record on the NLI. IrishGenealogy just hadn't scanned the image. Both the same.

jos28 · 28-03-2016 11:30am

Thought as much Jelly but just wanted to confirm because of the two different dates. The search goes on............

Jellybaby1 · 28-03-2016 8:02pm

My own interpretation is that it was transcribed wrongly. Unless these names were used over and over in the family I would say its the same one. I have more than two apparent couples in my family with the exact same names, and exact same parents on marriage records but the dates are entirely different too. Whilst there is a chance two people of the same names got married to each other, its hard to get the same names with the same parents as well.

Hermy · 01-04-2016 5:32pm

Entry 712 in this register has the note - non conj in mat - in the right hand column which I'm guessing means not joined in matrimony.
But does this note refer to the child, the parents, or perhaps the sponsor?

Alan259 · 01-04-2016 5:38pm

Hermy wrote: »

Entry 712 in this register has the note - non conj in mat - in the right hand column which I'm guessing means not joined in matrimony.
But does this note refer to the child, the parents, or perhaps the sponsor?

I would think it refers to the parents. Judging by the handwriting it looks like it was noted at the time the baptism was recorded and I can't think of any reason why the priest would note the sponsor's martial status.

Handwriting decipher thread *must post link to full page*

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Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page