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Protestants in PIRA or INLA

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  • 22-07-2013 1:41pm
    #1
    tdv123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭


    David Russell was a PIRA man (not sure if it was the stickies or provos) & Noel Lyttle was a INLA member. And there was a few other as well who I can't remember the names of it.

    Does anyone else know the names of any others?

    Also was there any known Catholics in the UVF or UDA? Or were they even allowed in?


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    #2
    tdv123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    Ronnie Bunting is another I thought of.


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    #3
    Little_Korean
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Little_Korean


    Read in Timothy Bowman's Carson's Army on the old UVF - slightly off-topic, perhaps, that at least one of the UVF branches made an effort to recruit Catholics into their ranks (alas, have forgotten which one and I don't have the book at hand to check).

    A bit optimistic on their part, perhaps, but it's interesting that they thought it was worth the shot.


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    #4
    da_hambo
    Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭da_hambo


    Londoner John Stephenson later known as Sean MacStiofan was born in England to an English father and Protestant Irish mother. Was he origionally protestant? He was leader of the PIRA after the split around 1969.


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    #5
    Little_Korean
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Little_Korean


    da_hambo wrote: »
    Londoner John Stephenson later known as Sean MacStiofan was born in England to an English father and Protestant Irish mother. Was he origionally protestant? He was leader of the PIRA after the split around 1969.

    I think his mother was a Protestant and his dad was Catholic.

    Most people attribute his 'more-Irish-than-the-Irish' tendency on his mother, who drummed into him the importance of remembering his Irish heritage, but as he also grew up to be an uber-Catholic while his mother wasn't, such Freudian theories perhaps have their limitations.


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    #6
    da_hambo
    Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭da_hambo


    Little_Korean wrote: »
    I think his mother was a Protestant and his dad was Catholic.

    Most people attribute his 'more-Irish-than-the-Irish' tendency on his mother, who drummed into him the importance of remembering his Irish heritage, but as he also grew up to be an uber-Catholic while his mother wasn't, such Freudian theories perhaps have their limitations.

    Amazing, so he very well could have gone the other way and become John Stephenson UDA / UVF leader?

    Just doing a bit of googling, he was buried in St Marys Cemetary Navan. St Marys Church nearby is a Catholic Parish.

    Did this guy ever release a memoir? Would be interesting to read how his ideals were formes.


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    #7
    Little_Korean
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Little_Korean


    da_hambo wrote: »
    Amazing, so he very well could have gone the other way and become John Stephenson UDA / UVF leader?

    No reason why not.

    He'd been in the RAF - not as a pilot, I don't think - before becoming involved with Irish Republican groups full-time so all he would have had to do was flaunt those credentials and they'd be happy to let him in, I'd imagine.

    Then when he was stripped from power in the PIRA - under somewhat mysterious circumstances - his former buddies there went back to calling him John Stephenson. No gratitude from some people.


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    #8
    Little_Korean
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Little_Korean


    da_hambo wrote: »
    Did this guy ever release a memoir? Would be interesting to read how his ideals were formes.

    He did, thoug it's hard to get hold off unless you stumble upon it. I got a copy from Dublin City Libraries and had to wait - literally - months before I got it. It was in the reserves section somewhere, despite being in good nick, so evidently I was the first in a while to request it and it took them that long finding it!

    It's fairly well-written, and quite interesting in the first half where, you say, his ideals were formed - he dedicated the book to revolutionaries everywhere in the world (and their wives, perhaps him thinking of his own, who features quite bit in the memoir), and met with a range of other revolutionaries while in jail for his first offence, including EOKA, who seemed to have made a big impression on him.

    The latter half is when he's Chief of Staff of the PIRA and is less interesting, mostly less-than-convincing justifications for various acts his group did, and it ends just when he gets off his hungerstrike so we never do know the reasons why he was demoted/dethroned for his point of view.


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    #9
    da_hambo
    Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭da_hambo


    Little_Korean wrote: »
    He did, thoug it's hard to get hold off unless you stumble upon it. I got a copy from Dublin City Libraries and had to wait - literally - months before I got it. It was in the reserves section somewhere, despite being in good nick, so evidently I was the first in a while to request it and it took them that long finding it!

    It's fairly well-written, and quite interesting in the first half where, you say, his ideals were formed - he dedicated the book to revolutionaries everywhere in the world (and their wives, perhaps him thinking of his own, who features quite bit in the memoir), and met with a range of other revolutionaries while in jail for his first offence, including EOKA, who seemed to have made a big impression on him.

    The latter half is when he's Chief of Staff of the PIRA and is less interesting, mostly less-than-convincing justifications for various acts his group did, and it ends just when he gets off his hungerstrike so we never do know the reasons why he was demoted/dethroned for his point of view.

    Cool going to Gorey library later so will do a search.
    Thanks.


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    #10
    da_hambo
    Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭da_hambo


    Little_Korean wrote: »
    Read in Timothy Bowman's Carson's Army on the old UVF - slightly off-topic, perhaps, that at least one of the UVF branches made an effort to recruit Catholics into their ranks (alas, have forgotten which one and I don't have the book at hand to check).

    A bit optimistic on their part, perhaps, but it's interesting that they thought it was worth the shot.

    On this note, was there some talk that Michael Stone may have been baptised Catholic?

    Also Shankill Butcher Lenny Murphy has to have some shady Catholic background? With a name like Murphy cant have been protestant very long. Maybe his father or grandfather?


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    #11
    Little_Korean
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Little_Korean


    da_hambo wrote: »
    Cool going to Gorey library later so will do a search.
    Thanks.

    Not about Protestants in the IRA, but if the library has MacStiofan's, it might have another hard-to-get book from the same time, Maria McGuire's, which is an interesting counter-measure to MacStiofan's.

    The two knew each other in the PIRA but fell out in the big way, and her account is highly critical of MacStiofan, who she portrays as dour and dictatorial and none-too-bright, and sectarian to boot. He, unsurprisingly, dedicates a bit of his book into ripping into her's in a big way, and he begins his by countering her claim that he said 'they were only Protestants' when hearing of some deaths.


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    #12
    Little_Korean
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Little_Korean


    da_hambo wrote: »
    On this note, was there some talk that Michael Stone may have been baptised Catholic?

    Some talk, usually from his Loyalist 'colleagues' when they fell out.

    The journalist Martin Dillon touched upon this in one of his books and seemed to confirm - or support - Stone's side of the story that there was no Catholic link in his family but I forgot the reasons why.
    Also Shankill Butcher Lenny Murphy has to have some shady Catholic background? With a name like Murphy cant have been protestant very long. Maybe his father or grandfather?

    His name is certainly very Nationalist, which was a source of tension for him with his fellow Loyalists and probably explains why he was so vicious, i.e. overcompensation.

    From the 'other side,' Frank Busteed from the Cork IRA in the War of Independence and one of the hardest men in an outfit of hard men, complained of not being respected by his peers for his Protestant background (one of his parents was, the other was Catholic) and his Protestants-sounding name. Patrick Pearse had a lot of angst over his English background, putting it down as a reason for his constant blue moods. And look what he ended up doing.

    Overcompensation seemed to have been a factor in a lot of the extreme types here.


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    #13
    claypigeon777
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭claypigeon777


    Rose Dugdale (born 1941) was the daughter of a wealthy English family, became a left wing radical in Oxford in the late 1960s before joining the civil rights movement and then the Provisional IRA. She took part in a helicopter attack on RUC barrack in which a milk churn bomb was dropped. She and an IRA gang also robbed paintings from the home of Sir Alfred Beit (there was an almost identical robbery by Martin Cahill and his gang years later). She also had a baby by Eddie Gallagher who was responsible for the kidnap of businessman Tiede Herrema and they were married in prison. She is apparently still involved with Sinn Féin.


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    #14
    Tramps Like Us
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Tramps Like Us


    She is yes, I've talked to her at numerous SF events in Dublin. A remarkable woman. TG4 made a documentary about her a while ago, "Women in the IRA" or something like that. John Murray interviewed her on the radio about that time too.


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    #15
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    There were a number of Protestants in the IRA, ye've managed to come out with a few very high-profile ones so it's safe to assume that there were a lot more than the above throughout the rank and file of the organisation. While I was in Sinn Féin I also encountered a number of Protestants although the majority of them would have been English people who moved to Ireland and carried on being political activists.

    As for Lenny Murphy, it was certainly an unusual name for an Irish Protestant but I went to school with two twins called Murphy who were died-in-the-wool Anglo Irish Protestants. It wasn't unheard of by any means.


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    #16
    kabakuyu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Little_Korean wrote: »
    Read in Timothy Bowman's Carson's Army on the old UVF - slightly off-topic, perhaps, that at least one of the UVF branches made an effort to recruit Catholics into their ranks (alas, have forgotten which one and I don't have the book at hand to check).

    A bit optimistic on their part, perhaps, but it's interesting that they thought it was worth the shot.

    I think about half a dozen ex catholics made it into the UVF and a few more into the YCV, Philip Orr in "Road To the Somme" did allude to a few catholics in the 36th Ulster division who used to sneak out to attend mass.


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    #17
    Spirit of 67
    Site Banned Posts: 600 ✭✭✭Spirit of 67


    tdv123 wrote: »
    David Russell was a PIRA man (not sure if it was the stickies or provos) & Noel Lyttle was a INLA member. And there was a few other as well who I can't remember the names of it.

    Does anyone else know the names of any others?

    Also was there any known Catholics in the UVF or UDA? Or were they even allowed in?

    2 Lads in Lurgan , their mother was an SDLP Councillor were/are Members of the LVF along with another Catholic lad from South Belfast , I know their names not sure if it`s okay to name them here . Also plenty of Lads born into Catholic families in Carrickfergus and Larne involved with the UDA and UVF !


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    #18
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    George Plant


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    #19
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Jesus. wrote: »
    George Plant

    George Plant was executed in 1942 so I doubt he had much input into the Provos or INLA.

    ****



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    #20
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    George Plant was executed in 1942 so I doubt he had much input into the Provos or INLA.

    And Little Korean's posts about the old UVF & old IRA?


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    #21
    stanley1980
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭stanley1980


    Just stumbled on this thread now and have found it very interesting. Some of it I knew but some interesting new info too. I've always been interested in seeming 'outsiders' who became involved in the conflict. Please note I don't mean any offence by that.
    Would it be fair to say that for example Irish-Italians for several reasons e.g. religious background would've been more likely to have aligned with republicanism? I can think of one prominent example. I can also remember one of the UVF's Belfast leaders had Egyptian roots.
    On an similar but unrelated note, I wonder how the influx of other nationalities into the north e.g. Polish could affect the political landscape there- if at all.


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    #22
    Spirit of 67
    Site Banned Posts: 600 ✭✭✭Spirit of 67


    stanley1980 wrote: »
    Just stumbled on this thread now and have found it very interesting. Some of it I knew but some interesting new info too. I've always been interested in seeming 'outsiders' who became involved in the conflict. Please note I don't mean any offence by that.
    Would it be fair to say that for example Irish-Italians for several reasons e.g. religious background would've been more likely to have aligned with republicanism? I can think of one prominent example. I can also remember one of the UVF's Belfast leaders had Egyptian roots.
    On an similar but unrelated note, I wonder how the influx of other nationalities into the north e.g. Polish could affect the political landscape there- if at all.

    The UDA , the 2 Shoukri`s . And there is a number of Italian-Irish families who were involved with Republican Groups .


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    #23
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Little_Korean wrote: »
    Then when he was stripped from power in the PIRA - under somewhat mysterious circumstances - his former buddies there went back to calling him John Stephenson. No gratitude from some people.

    I'm pretty sure his overly conservative Catholicism was unacceptable in an increasingly progressively minded movement, most of his cohort split to set up tho continuity IRA in the 80s.

    it also looks like his hunger strike was a one man plan with no support from the rest of the leadership so that probably didn't go down to well especially after he gave an interview to rte which was incriminating, unlike in 81 their was no prison protest among IRA prisoners at this time. Even leaders are subject to army discipline


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    #24
    stanley1980
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭stanley1980


    Spirit of 67 wrote: »
    The UDA , the 2 Shoukri`s . And there is a number of Italian-Irish families who were involved with Republican Groups .[/QUOTE

    UDA not UVF. Right you are- thanks for the correction.


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    #25
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    stanley1980 wrote: »
    Just stumbled on this thread now and have found it very interesting. Some of it I knew but some interesting new info too. I've always been interested in seeming 'outsiders' who became involved in the conflict. Please note I don't mean any offence by that.
    Would it be fair to say that for example Irish-Italians for several reasons e.g. religious background would've been more likely to have aligned with republicanism? I can think of one prominent example. I can also remember one of the UVF's Belfast leaders had Egyptian roots.
    On an similar but unrelated note, I wonder how the influx of other nationalities into the north e.g. Polish could affect the political landscape there- if at all.

    Ian paisley once called on a mob to run Italian (i think) Catholics out of the shankill road so I can see why they didn't join the loyalists. Not sure on this but a friend told me that the polish in the north tend to vote Sinn féin


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    #26
    stanley1980
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭stanley1980


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    Ian paisley once called on a mob to run Italian (i think) Catholics out of the shankill road so I can see why they didn't join the loyalists. Not sure on this but a friend told me that the polish in the north tend to vote Sinn féin

    I know this is off-topic but I was listening to Newstalk the other day and one of the contributors suggested there are now more Polish passport holders in the 6 counties than Irish! Could that be true?


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    #27
    Spirit of 67
    Site Banned Posts: 600 ✭✭✭Spirit of 67


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    Ian paisley once called on a mob to run Italian (i think) Catholics out of the shankill road so I can see why they didn't join the loyalists. Not sure on this but a friend told me that the polish in the north tend to vote Sinn féin

    Polish Girl in East Belfast and a Portugese Guy in Craigavon ran for the SDLP in 2011 ! Andrew Muir , a gay Protestant was a Member of the SDLP , left to join Alliance !


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    #28
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    stanley1980 wrote: »
    I know this is off-topic but I was listening to Newstalk the other day and one of the contributors suggested there are now more Polish passport holders in the 6 counties than Irish! Could that be true?

    very unlikely but not impossible, it can be relatively complicated to get an irish passport up north so getting a british one is easier, if britain leave the eu their will be a huge increase in Irish passports up north


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    #29
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    stanley1980 wrote: »
    I know this is off-topic but I was listening to Newstalk the other day and one of the contributors suggested there are now more Polish passport holders in the 6 counties than Irish! Could that be true?

    Wouldn't surprise me, seeing as there are now more polish speakers than Irish speakers in Ireland. So yes, it could be true...
    claypigeon777 wrote: »
    Rose Dugdale (born 1941) was the daughter of a wealthy English family, became a left wing radical in Oxford in the late 1960s before joining the civil rights movement and then the Provisional IRA. She took part in a helicopter attack on RUC barrack in which a milk churn bomb was dropped. She and an IRA gang also robbed paintings from the home of Sir Alfred Beit (there was an almost identical robbery by Martin Cahill and his gang years later). She also had a baby by Eddie Gallagher who was responsible for the kidnap of businessman Tiede Herrema and they were married in prison. She is apparently still involved with Sinn Féin.

    And her religion (not that it should matter)?


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    #30
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Wouldn't surprise me, seeing as there are now more polish speakers than Irish speakers in Ireland. So yes, it could be true...



    And her religion (not that it should matter)?

    Anyway, Rose Dugdale was a dopey English radical and not a member of the C of I so she doesn't count. :D

    ****



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    #31
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    She sounds like a total nutter :(


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