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Prehistoric Hiberno/Serbian theory
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kildare boyHas the theory that people came from somewhere up in the Nordic region the down to Scotland then finally to Ireland been debunked then?
There were many comings and goings between south Baltic and Ireland and Scotland. From Henges to wooden track ways (tochars) to cranogs and ringforts everything appeared first in Central Europe, then followed the same route via south Baltic to Ireland and England and Scotland. Cultural similarities are striking, including for instance the custom of human sacrifice to the goddess of death, cold and water Mora, Morana, Morigan, Morgana during the period of the catastrophic climate changes around 800 BC which gave us all the Irish and Baltic bog bodies. The thing is no one really looked at it seriously through long period of time, until now. I hope people will from now on.
Have a look at this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84448704&postcount=17
IpsoRegarding Scythia, the name isn't mentioned until 700 bc and apart from the religious connections I'd say identity politics has a lot to do with it from the point of view of a land seeking independence trying to differentiate themselves from the over lords.
How do we know these Scythians of 700bc were the same people who populated the area in the more distant past (which is what this thread is about)?
Because you have a continuation of R1a cultures in Eurasia from at least 10,000 bc to today. The names and cultures changed, people and language survived. In Serbian "skitati" means to wander, to move from place to place, to live nomadic life stile. Skit is a nomad. This is perfect description of the Scythians who ruled the Eurasian steppe from India to South Baltic. There is also association with "sk, sek" meaning to cut. Scythians were obsessed with swords. They were their sacred objects. Sword in stone is a description of a Scythian sacred altar, except it was not stone but a wooden pyramid with sword or cross at the top. We have these kind of "crosses" in Ireland as well. Some people connect Scythians with Saxons through old Persian name for Scythians Saka. People of the sword. Tumuluses, torques, animal decorative images, anthropomorphic crosses, baba ancestor statues, horse worship, sun worship...All found in Scythian archaeological sites and in Ireland in both archaeological sites and oral tradition.
It is completely possible, and even probable that agricultural sun worshiping people from Ireland moved to central Europe during the mid 3rd millennium great deluge. I believe that this is one of the proofs for it happening:It appears from the preceding accounts that, both by Celts and Germans, a wheel was often used for kindling the needfire. Jacob Grimm was the first to make it evident that, for the Germans at least the wheel was an emblem of the sun, and numerous facts which have come to light since he wrote, abundantly verify his conclusion. He mentions, among other evidence, that in the Edda the sun is called fagrahvel " fair or bright wheel," and that the same sign ☉ which in the calendar represents the sun stands also for the Gothic double consonant 'hw,' the initial of the Gothic word 'hvil,' Anglo-Saxon 'hveol,' English 'wheel.'In the needfire on the island of Mull the wheel was turned, according to Celtic usage, from east to west, like the sun.
There was a twofold reason for this use of the emblem of the sun, for that body was regarded not only as a mass of heavenly fire, but also as the immediate source of the lightning. When black clouds concealed the sun, the early Aryans believed that its light was actually extinguished, and needed to be rekindled. Then the pramantha 1 was worked by some god in the cold wheel until it glowed again, but before this was finally accomplished the pramantha often shot out as a thunderbolt from the wheel, or was carried off by some fire robbers. The word 'thunderbolt' itself like its German equivalents expresses the cylindrical or conical form of the pramantha. When the bolts had ceased to fly from the nave, and the wheel was once more ablaze, the storm was over."
The Midsummer or St. John's-day fires, which were kindled at the season of the summer solstice, have been commonly spoken of as if they were of one kind only, whereas they were of three kinds, as specified by a medieval writer quoted by Kemble. There were, first, bonfires ; secondly, processions with burning brands round the fields ; thirdly, wheels blazing and set rolling. The bonfires, he says, were lighted for the purpose of scaring away the dragons that poisoned the waters with the slime that fell from them at that hot season, and there-
fore bones and all sorts of filth were thrown into the fire, that the smoke might be the fouler and more offensive to the dragons. (Here we have again the primitive Aryan dragon Ahi, at his old work in the sultry midsummer weather.) As for the wheel, the same writer says, "it is rolled to signify that the sun ascends at that time to the summit of his circle, and immediately begins to descend again."
http://archive.org/details/curiositiesindo00kellgoogThere is a pilgrimage route running from Ballintober Abbey to the summit of Croagh Patrick. It probably extends back east to Rathcroghan, the palace of Queen Maeve, the Iron Age ruler of Connaught. Westport researcher Gerry Bracken was cataloging monuments in the Westport area when he came across an unusual site, known as St Patrick's Chair, or the Boheh Stone which is located on the pilgrimage trail south east of Croagh Patrick. The sequence of photos below was taken in 2000. At the bottom of the page is a more up to date image by Ken Williams.
This monument is covered in cup and ring marks, and turns out to be the only known example in Connaught, as well as one of the finest examples in Ireland. Gerry discovered that on two days in the year, the setting sun, when viewed from this spot, touches the summit of the Mountain, then proceeds to 'roll' down the northern slope. The angle of the Mountain's side matches the declination (setting angle) of the sun at this time and place.
http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/croaghpatrick/gifs/RollingSun.gif
http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/croaghpatrick/reek2.html
At how many more mountains in Europe or World can you observe the actual sun wheel rolling down the side of the hill, mountain? Is it possible that this is what is celebrated by rolling the burning sun wheel down the hill? Are people in Central Europe reenacting what they observed happening on their holy sun mountain which they had to leave when heaven opened? Of course by the time these "Germanic" customs were observed, the source of it was long forgotten. Is the big flood of mid 3rd millennium bc the reason why Celts were afraid of "heavens falling on their head"? Or the one from 800bc? Both devastated the north European agricultural population.
People move. The R1a or I2 agricultural people probably came to Ireland in the 4th millennium bc from central Europe via south Baltic. The continued with their sun worship culture, but also developed their own local strand of it. Then they (some of them at least) went back to central Europe in the middle of 3rd millennium. This coming and going of people between central Europe and Ireland probably happened many times before and since.0 -
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ancient stone circles and observatories from Bulgaria
https://www.facebook.com/VMBulgaria/photos/a.181655808654490.1073741846.179249492228455/292656254221111/?type=1&theater
Ancient map of solar system with sun clock from Bulgaria
https://www.facebook.com/VMBulgaria/photos/a.191159274370810.1073741877.179249492228455/191159384370799/?type=1&theater0 -
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interesting publication.
http://gendocs.ru/docs/25/24947/conv_1/file1.pdf
And very interesting map indeed. Celtic languages. Look how it follows the Carpathian mountains down south into south eastern Serbia and south western Bulgaria. The old Serbia. And how it follows the distribution of R1b haplogroup. I think people are beginning to see the light.
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dublinviking wrote: »I agree with you that Goidelic, Brythonic, Gaulish and Celtiberian come from the same old language group, but I don't agree that that is Celtic. I would call it Atlantic. Celtic is Central European language group, and is much more likely to have been mixture of R1a, R1b, I2 languages formed in the 3rd millennium bc in Central Europe, probably at the time of Vucedol culture. Who was the main carrier of this Celtic language group? Probably R1a and I2, because what we find in Central Europe at the moment are majority R1a and I2 languages with small percentage of R1b (Atlantic) languages mixed in. We already spoke about this at the beginning of this thread.
This makes no sense, the language family containing Goidelic, Brythonic, Lepontic, Gaulish and Celtiberian is called Celtic. There is no other name for this. We know specifically that Gaulish is the language used by La Tene Celts as encountered by the Roman's and Greeks. The defining feature of any Celtic language is the deletion of Indo-European *p. This is what spilts Proto-Celtic from it's close relative Proto-Italic.
R1a current distribution in Central Europe is probably due to expansion of Slavic languages after the collapse of the Roman Empire. It can't be used as a good proxy for the situation 3,000+ years ago. Leaving that aside the R1b still outnumbers R1a in Austria and Switzerland which is the heart of area that gave rise to Urnfield, Hallstat and La Tene material cultures.
Gaulish is the language spoken by what Caesar and the Roman's consider Celts. The closest Indo-European branches to Celtic branch are Italic and Germanic. Interesting enough the distrubition of subclades under R1b-M269 somewhat backs this up, with areas associated with Italic and Celtic groups dominated by R1b-P312 and Germanic speaking areas dominated by R1b-U106. Both of these share a common root in R1b-L11.
R1b expansion in Europe shows a distinct East to West movement based on distrubition of upstream SNP's under R1b.
If we look at ancient-DNA we know that Bell Beakers remains from Germany showd up as R1b -- negative for U106 but untested on P312.
On a simplistic level R1b exceeds R1a in populations which speak or historically speak the following Indo-European branches:
Celtic, Italic, Germanic, Albanian, Armenian, Greek, Anatolian.0 -
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I also fail to see how you can claim that Vedic culture is purely connected to R1a1 (and subclades), have you retrieved Ancient-DNA from vedic remains and verified that they were solely R1a?
Because all main Vedic gods and symbols have clear etymologies in Serbian, but not in say German or French or Latin or even Persian, Avestan and Sanskrit. Vedic god Trimurti is Indian version of European Triglav, which is only preserved in Serbian tradition from Balkan to Baltic. Vedas were created in Europe, probably in the Balkans, or Central Europe, as a mix of I2a and R1a cultures. There could have been also R1b infulence there. I don't know. I believe that that is too early for R1b to be involved. This happened in 4th millennium bc, at the time when Vincans started their world expansion.R1a in a Slavic context is nearly all R1a1-M458 (subclade of R1a1-Z282). This is not found in any Indian, Pakistani or even Iranian samples. If anything the last time European R1a1 and Indian R1a1 shared a common ancestor is on the order of 5,000-6,000 years ago.
Exactly when I would expect it to have existed. At the time Vincans started their world expansion.Any scientific study in the north of the sub-continent will show intrusive nature of R1a as well as smaller amounts of R1b. R2 of course is also heavily present in the sub-continent.
Which is exactly what i claim. R1a in India are the invaders from Europe.What that you went on a tangent using some made up word (Arbin) that sprung from the mind of Klyosov.
Lighten up. I like name Arbin. It is poetic and funny. As I told you already. Ria-n Rib-n. See! Funny
. But you are too serious. You see this as a war not as scientific discussion. You seem to be in it to prove the greatness of R1b race because this will make you feel better about yourself. You are looking at this from a racist point of view. Is this why you asked me which haplogroup I was? So you can accuse me of being biased?
But I am not surprised by this any more. I see that all the time all over the world. People like to believe that they are descendants of mighty races. It makes them feel better about themselves and about the fact that they are themselves really insignificant, because they have nothing to show for themselves. So instead of discovering something important, building something important, doing something important, which would make them important, they spend all their energy bragging about their important ancestors....
But as much as we like doing it, we can not take credits for what our ancestors did. We are born who we are by chance.0 -
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