Laws Question? Ask here!

Alan_007_ · 24-03-2009 10:31pm #1

Just wondering.If the ball is on the ground and you kick it over do you get the 3 points or is it play on?

mikedragon32 · 25-03-2009 12:27am

No is the quick answer.

For points to be scored Law 9 says that it must be from a drop kick. Presumably play continues if a ball is fly-hacked over the crossbar in the normal fashion.

randomer · 25-03-2009 10:19am

Is it possible to score an Own Drop Goal?

louthandproud · 25-03-2009 10:26am

randomer wrote: »

Is it possible to score an Own Drop Goal?

Sort of depends on your medication!

chupacabra · 25-03-2009 12:36pm

randomer wrote: »

Is it possible to score an Own Drop Goal?

haha no, but the prospect of such a thing is quite hilarious :pac:

randomer · 25-03-2009 1:12pm

Another odd question.

What happens if the ball goes wide of the posts, but then the wind or something else causes the ball to go through the posts the wrong way?

Essentially the ball did go over the bar, and between the posts, just backwards. Would this count for a penalty, conversion or drop goal?

remus808 · 25-03-2009 1:27pm

randomer wrote: »

Another odd question.

What happens if the ball goes wide of the posts, but then the wind or something else causes the ball to go through the posts the wrong way?

Essentially the ball did go over the bar, and between the posts, just backwards. Would this count for a penalty, conversion or drop goal?

Wouldn't count.

This is the closest you'll ever see to something like that happening on a rugby pitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnCTqhVYbBs

Bizarre.

mikedragon32 · 25-03-2009 2:50pm

randomer wrote: »

Another odd question.

What happens if the ball goes wide of the posts, but then the wind or something else causes the ball to go through the posts the wrong way?

Essentially the ball did go over the bar, and between the posts, just backwards. Would this count for a penalty, conversion or drop goal?

Wouldn't count.

However, if the ball was to pass over the crossbar and then blow back again, the points would be awarded.

stephen_n · 25-03-2009 4:10pm

randomer wrote: »

Another odd question.

What happens if the ball goes wide of the posts, but then the wind or something else causes the ball to go through the posts the wrong way?

Essentially the ball did go over the bar, and between the posts, just backwards. Would this count for a penalty, conversion or drop goal?

You either have a lot of time on your hands or have a good supply of high quality drugs lol

enda1 · 25-03-2009 4:13pm

Another question from me, though I kinda guess the answer...

Are you allowed throw the ball forward (such as over the head of oposition) and then catch it yourself again. I guss its considered a forward pass.

However if you "fumble" the ball forward and catch it its ok? Even if the fumble is to your advantage?

mikedragon32 · 25-03-2009 5:27pm

enda1 wrote: »

Another question from me, though I kinda guess the answer...

Are you allowed throw the ball forward (such as over the head of oposition) and then catch it yourself again. I guss its considered a forward pass.

However if you "fumble" the ball forward and catch it its ok? Even if the fumble is to your advantage?

The situation you outline is a "throw forward" and even though it is collected by the person who threw it, it's still deemed to be a "throw forward". As you describe it here, it would be a penalty to the defending team.

There was a situation a couple of years ago when BOD did something like this, but the ball was judged not to have gone forward, but across the field, and play continued. Replays showed the forward progress of the ball, but hey ho....

You're not deemed to have knocked a ball on until it hits either the ground or another player, so once you regain possession of the ball yourself, it's fine.

25-03-2009 5:34pm

enda1 wrote: »

Another question from me, though I kinda guess the answer...

Are you allowed throw the ball forward (such as over the head of oposition) and then catch it yourself again. I guss its considered a forward pass.

However if you "fumble" the ball forward and catch it its ok? Even if the fumble is to your advantage?

Like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvnexjWJYg

I think this was the first time it was done on a large scale ,I think clarification was made after that made it illegal.There was lots of debate over whether it was legal or not at the time.

DS · 26-03-2009 2:41am

YouTube is blocked in work, is that a clip of Rokocoko?

amacachi · 26-03-2009 2:49am

The O'Driscoll thing comes back to the "momentum" thing, there was a video explaining it posted on this bored a while back. Once the angle of the ball is lateral or backwards it's allowed, ie. the ball may move forward even if thrown in a lateral direction. The momentum is usually judged by the player's movement after the pass, so O'Driscoll got away with it

il gatto · 26-03-2009 6:57am

The laws of rugby tend to dictate that whatever you achieve is by your own forethought and actions. Obviously you can't allow for the bounce of an oval ball though. "Fluke" points, be they for or against are not part of the game.
I often wondered about that O'Driscoll move. It looks alot like crossing to me, even though I suppose as the ball wasn't technically in his possesion, the ball carrier wasn't being shielded from a potential tackler. Still suprised the ref didn't blow it up out of shock though:D

Mucco · 26-03-2009 11:46am

Since this seems to be the thread for asking questions, I was wondering if you're allowed to 'save' a penalty kick. For instance, had Jones's kick last Saturday had a bit more legs, would someone be allowed to jump up to stop it going over the bar? I'm assuming not, or POC et al would be lined up ready to grab it.

Thanks,

M

RuggieBear · 26-03-2009 12:38pm

Mucco wrote: »

Since this seems to be the thread for asking questions, I was wondering if you're allowed to 'save' a penalty kick. For instance, had Jones's kick last Saturday had a bit more legs, would someone be allowed to jump up to stop it going over the bar? I'm assuming not, or POC et al would be lined up ready to grab it.

Thanks,

M

you used to be able to but the laws were amended to stop people blocking penalties from going over the bar.

Downtime · 30-03-2009 10:04am

Mucco wrote: »

Since this seems to be the thread for asking questions, I was wondering if you're allowed to 'save' a penalty kick. For instance, had Jones's kick last Saturday had a bit more legs, would someone be allowed to jump up to stop it going over the bar? I'm assuming not, or POC et al would be lined up ready to grab it.

You can mark a penalty so therefore you and jump (unaided) to catch the ball before it goes over the bar.

Sangre · 30-03-2009 10:13am

can you score a drop goal from a restart? id assume not.

Downtime · 30-03-2009 10:33am

No you cant.

anonymous_joe · 30-03-2009 11:59am

What's the deal with that one foot in touch thing when catching a kick?

RuggieBear · 30-03-2009 12:04pm

i believe the person becomes an extension of the line and thus the ball is considered to be out if caught (even if infield) by a player who has a foot in touch.
Thus if the opposition kick the ball outside (or if it was passed back into) the 22 and a player catches it while having a foot in touch the ball is considered to be out on the full (even if it would have bounced infield) and the lineout is where ever the ball was kicked from.

(I think that's right but open to correction)

barnesd · 30-03-2009 12:05pm

Any chance someone can change the topic title to "Laws" instead of "Rules". I'm being a pedant but rugby has laws, not rules.

mikedragon32 · 30-03-2009 12:07pm

That's correct Ruggiebear.

[pedant]Can you change the tile of the sticky to "Laws" rather than "Rules"?[/pedant]

RuggieBear · 30-03-2009 12:12pm

barnesd wrote: »

Any chance someone can change the topic title to "Laws" instead of "Rules". I'm being a pedant but rugby has laws, not rules.

mikedragon32 wrote: »

That's correct Ruggiebear.

[pedant]Can you change the tile of the sticky to "Laws" rather than "Rules"?[/pedant]

Oops that was me! and i hate it as well

to my eternal shame!:o

enda1 · 30-03-2009 1:11pm

RuggieBear wrote: »

i believe the person becomes an extension of the line and thus the ball is considered to be out if caught (even if infield) by a player who has a foot in touch.
Thus if the opposition kick the ball outside (or if it was passed back into) the 22 and a player catches it while having a foot in touch the ball is considered to be out on the full (even if it would have bounced infield) and the lineout is where ever the ball was kicked from.

(I think that's right but open to correction)

Do you need to catch the ball or is just touching it before it touches the ground enough (of course with one foot or more in touch)?

RuggieBear · 30-03-2009 1:13pm

enda1 wrote: »

Do you need to catch the ball or is just touching it before it touches the ground enough (of course with one foot or more in touch)?

good question...i don't know tbh!

Downtime · 30-03-2009 5:09pm

The ball must be caught.

Tim Robbins · 30-03-2009 5:11pm

And it must be moving. If you have one foot in touch and just pick up a static ball it doesn't count.

Ginja Ninja · 30-03-2009 6:01pm

Thanks for the sticky-ness,expect a LOT of random questions[probably from me]
like: if a ball is kicked[I.e jones last weekend] and bounces over the bar is it counted as a score?obviously you would need the perfect bounce and the ball coming down from outer space for the exact momentum to clear the bar but IF

mikedragon32 · 30-03-2009 8:11pm

Ginja Ninja wrote: »

Thanks for the sticky-ness,expect a LOT of random questions[probably from me]
like: if a ball is kicked[I.e jones last weekend] and bounces over the bar is it counted as a score?obviously you would need the perfect bounce and the ball coming down from outer space for the exact momentum to clear the bar but IF

No, once the ball has touched the ground or a team-mate, the score will not be allowed.

Tim Robbins · 31-03-2009 11:07am

mikedragon32 wrote: »

No, once the ball has touched the ground or a team-mate, the score will not be allowed.

That's correct. From law book.

9.A.2. KICK AT GOAL - SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES
(a) If after the ball is kicked, it touches the ground or any team mate
of the kicker, a goal cannot be scored.
(b) If the ball has crossed the cross bar a goal is scored, even if the
wind blows it back into the field of play.
(c) If an opponent commits an offence as the kick at goal is being
taken, but neverthless the kick is successful, advantage is played
and the score stands.
(d) Any player who touches the ball in an attempt to prevent a penalty
goal being scored is illegally touching the ball.

Stealdo · 01-04-2009 6:02pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

(d) Any player who touches the ball in an attempt to prevent a penalty
goal being scored is illegally touching the ball.

That's an interesting one Tim - do you reckon that includes a player standing 10 metres back from a low kick who puts his hands up to block it? (a la Gaelic Football or Aussie Rules)?

mikedragon32 · 01-04-2009 7:19pm

Yes. It also prohibits a "line out" style lift to catch a ball before it goes over the crossbar.

Stealdo · 02-04-2009 2:47pm

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Yes. It also prohibits a "line out" style lift to catch a ball before it goes over the crossbar.

yeah, knew that, but I always would have thought that if a guy is standing back the required 10m with his feet on the ground and a kick at goal is low enough for him to reach he'd be entitled to play it. Probably another ill considered consequence of change to prevent the case you mention.

I was watching the BBC GS special online yesterday and was surprised to hear Paddy Wallace say that having seen the replays he didn't think Barnes should have given a penalty against him at the end of the game against Wales. I thought it was a clear cut case. Ruck had formed, he played the ball with his hands. Anyone got any other opinions?

The way I see it AWJ is tackled in midfield, Wallace attempts to get to the ball, is on his feet, but by the time he get his hands on it there are two Welsh players on their feet, bound to him so a ruck has formed and he has to keep his hands away from it. I can't really see an argument against it. Anyone got any opinions on that?

mikedragon32 · 02-04-2009 10:51pm

None from me. Clear cut penalty imo.

robgloster · 06-04-2009 5:50pm

Line out Question!

Have had alot of conflicting refs with this one

Jummy jumpers pretending to jump with a slight hop waiting 3 seconds then going up . Some refs allow it other dont.

Downtime · 06-04-2009 7:25pm

If it is forcing the opposition to jump/lift early then it is a management issue. it is illegal under law 19.9 (i).

Jumping or supporting before the ball is thrown. A player must not
jump for the ball or support any player before the ball has left the hands
of the player throwing it in. Penalty: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

Referees should try an mange it first by stopping the line out and addressing the issue. if it reoccurs then free kick.

robgloster · 06-04-2009 7:30pm

Downtime wrote: »

If it is forcing the opposition to jump/lift early then it is a management issue. it is illegal under law 19.9 (i).

Thank you that was exactly the aim of our lineout to get them to jump early

pdelahunty · 13-04-2009 11:53am

It should probably be penalised as crossing but it just goes to show what a player he is that he would think to do something like that - quality

Gelio · 14-04-2009 12:05am

Tim Robbins wrote: »

And it must be moving. If you have one foot in touch and just pick up a static ball it doesn't count.

What if its rolling?

Podge_irl · 14-04-2009 12:23am

ajeffares wrote: »

What if its rolling?

That's fine. If you pick up a rolling ball with one foot over the dead ball line then it counts as the ball having gone dead.

Gelio · 14-04-2009 12:27am

Podge_irl wrote: »

That's fine. If you pick up a rolling ball with one foot over the dead ball line then it counts as the ball having gone dead.

Thanks, Handy to know

Serenity Now! · 14-04-2009 7:22pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

That's fine. If you pick up a rolling ball with one foot over the dead ball line then it counts as the ball having gone dead.

If this is about the Munster v Ospreys game, Williams actually grabbed the ball before he touched the line with his foot (on the line is over the line). Barnes called correctly. Not too long afterwards, Howlett did the exact same (touched the line after taking the ball) and Barnes (and asst ref) called incorrectly.
The Wallabies were robbed in the second Bledisloe in this respect when Ashley-Cooper set himself up to gather the ball after his foot was in place over the touch around 10m out from his own line. Instead of getting throw in the lineout, it was given to the All Blacks who won the lineout and then two rucks later went over for the try.

daveharnett · 16-04-2009 3:48am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

If this is about the Munster v Ospreys game, Williams actually grabbed the ball before he touched the line with his foot (on the line is over the line). Barnes called correctly.

I'd make a tiny quibble with that.

1: Williams grabs the (just) rolling ball in the goal area.
2: Williams puts a foot on the dead ball line.
3: Williams touches the ball down.

Barnes awarded a drop out because williams touched the ball down. Technically, he should have awarded the drop out because williams carried it dead.

Even when he's right he's wrong;)

daveharnett · 16-04-2009 3:59am

enda1 wrote: »

Are you allowed throw the ball forward (such as over the head of oposition) and then catch it yourself again. I guss its considered a forward pass.

However if you "fumble" the ball forward and catch it its ok? Even if the fumble is to your advantage?

12.1 THE OUTCOME OF A KNOCK ON OR THROW FORWARD
...
(e) Intentional knock or throw forward. A player must not
intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm, nor throw
forward.

So you can "fumble" it all you want as long as the ref it happy that it's not deliberate.

Downtime wrote: »

You can mark a penalty so therefore you and jump (unaided) to catch the ball before it goes over the bar.

9.A.2. KICK AT GOAL - SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES
...
(d) Any player who touches the ball in an attempt to prevent a penalty
goal being scored is illegally touching the ball.

daveharnett · 16-04-2009 4:02am

Stealdo wrote: »

That's an interesting one Tim - do you reckon that includes a player standing 10 metres back from a low kick who puts his hands up to block it? (a la Gaelic Football or Aussie Rules)?

Yes, if the kick stands any chance of going over.

Oh, and
21.5 SCORING A GOAL FROM A PENALTY KICK
....
(c) If the kicker indicates to the referee the intent to kick at goal, the
opposing team must stand still with their hands by their sides
from the time the kicker starts to approach to kick until the ball is
kicked.

Downtime · 16-04-2009 4:16pm

He cannot block it as 9.A.2. KICK AT GOAL - SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES applies unless it is for protection.

He can still jump and catch the ball if it coming towards him as he is not preventing the goal from being scored unless it is actually going over the bar which is what I meant.

It would want to be a good jump to prevent a score as a rugby cross bar is 3m but then he would be penalised.

Sundy · 06-06-2009 5:06pm

Downtime wrote: »

He cannot block it as 9.A.2. KICK AT GOAL - SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES applies unless it is for protection.

He can still jump and catch the ball if it coming towards him as he is not preventing the goal from being scored unless it is actually going over the bar which is what I meant.

It would want to be a good jump to prevent a score as a rugby cross bar is 3m but then he would be penalised.

Well in fairness you did say before the ball goes over the bar it which case you would be preventing the goal being scored.

I think the point your making is that you can jump to catch a ball that is going wide or falling short. Correct?

Stealdo · 11-06-2009 12:34am

Question - if the ball goes into touch outside the 22, and a player takes a quick throw in inside the 22 does it count as being passed back in? Or is it ok to go straight to touch?

Downtime · 11-06-2009 8:22am

It counts as being passed back in as the line of touch is outside the 22.

Laws Question? Ask here!

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