Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

LEAP CARD - Updated Summary of Cards/Functionality Available - September 2014

2»

Comments

  • #52
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well unless you have a magic wand, there's no other way of putting the money onto the card.

    No magic wand required, just more modern ticket machines with more memory and a mobile connection to the network.

    I'll point out that it has been possible to apply online topups on buses in Atlanta since 2006!

    That is now almost 10 years later!

    The truth is DB just have been using the cheapest, oldest, least capable and totally outdated ticketing machines on the market.

    So lets not make excuses for their bad management and instead try and highlight it and change it.


  • #53
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    bk wrote: »
    No magic wand required, just more modern ticket machines with more memory and a mobile connection to the network.

    I'll point out that it has been possible to apply online topups on buses in Atlanta since 2006!

    That is now almost 10 years later!

    The truth is DB just have been using the cheapest, oldest, least capable and totally outdated ticketing machines on the market.

    So lets not make excuses for their bad management and instead try and highlight it and change it.

    Perhaps it may have escaped you, but we have been in one of the biggest recessions in living memory.

    It's not always possible to do everything you want. The money for upgrading all of the ticket machines has simply not been available, and is not there until next year. That money will come from the NTA - it's not a Dublin Bus decision. We already know that the machines are to be upgraded in Q4 of 2015.

    Or maybe you have another magic wand to pay for nearly 1,000 new ticket machines for DB and a similar amount for Bus Eireann?

    The ticket machines that Dublin Bus have, when purchased, were NOT outdated or indeed the cheapest available at the time of purchase - anything but, so don't imply that a bad decision was made.

    While it may be possible to do it in Atlanta, it certainly isn't in most European countries, which would tell me that Atlanta isn't exactly representative.


  • #54
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The ticket machines that Dublin Bus have, when purchased, were NOT outdated or indeed the cheapest available at the time of purchase - anything but, so don't imply that a bad decision was made.

    They were not then that is true, but they were superseded by a much newer version just after they took delivery of them and are based on outdated technology, even if the machines were not quite outdated.


  • #55
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    While it is true that we have just been through a recession, and many major infrastructure projects were cancelled like Dart Underground, Metro North, etc. all investment in infrastructure and public transport didn't just stop.

    In fact it freed up a lot of money for smaller, necessary public transport improvement projects.

    For example Dublin Bikes, Leap, RTPI, on bus location signs and announcements, on bus wifi, were all launched during the recession!

    In particular RTPI added a computer, GPS and live mobile internet connection to every bus and Leap added extra ticketing infrastructure. While doing all of this it would have made a lot of sense to add a more modern, powerful ticketing machine at the same time with all this other new gear. It probably wouldn't have even cost that much extra. 1 million would probably be enough, a drop in the ocean compared to the multi billion dollar projects.

    That seems to be a theme with Irish public transport, we are quiet happy to drop billions on massive infrastructure projects like the Luas, port tunnel, motorway network, etc. But god help you if you want to spend a mere 1 million on new ticket machines which will speed up dwell times and make Leap actually work properly!

    The issue with the ticket machines shows a clear failure at DB and NTA management level to clearly understand the requirements of the Leap project and speedy well integrated ticketing.

    I honestly believe that spending just a few million on new ticketing machines and introducing true multi-modal integrated ticketing (Amsterdam style per km tag-on/tag-off system) would have as much benefit as a 300 million Luas line.

    But then it isn't as sexy and there is no fancy ribbon cutting photo op for the politicians.


  • #56
    what_traffic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,004 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    fyi, the readers have been installed on most (all?) of the city fleet in Galway in the last few weeks. Looking forward to it - but there will be some "interesting" moments because here coaches are sometimes used on the city routes ...
    Any idea's of launch date in Galway City Mrs OBumble?


  • #57
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    devnull wrote: »
    They were not then that is true, but they were superseded by a much newer version just after they took delivery of them and are based on outdated technology, even if the machines were not quite outdated.


    bk wrote: »
    While it is true that we have just been through a recession, and many major infrastructure projects were cancelled like Dart Underground, Metro North, etc. all investment in infrastructure and public transport didn't just stop.

    In fact it freed up a lot of money for smaller, necessary public transport improvement projects.

    For example Dublin Bikes, Leap, RTPI, on bus location signs and announcements, on bus wifi, were all launched during the recession!

    In particular RTPI added a computer, GPS and live mobile internet connection to every bus and Leap added extra ticketing infrastructure. While doing all of this it would have made a lot of sense to add a more modern, powerful ticketing machine at the same time with all this other new gear. It probably wouldn't have even cost that much extra. 1 million would probably be enough, a drop in the ocean compared to the multi billion dollar projects.

    That seems to be a theme with Irish public transport, we are quiet happy to drop billions on massive infrastructure projects like the Luas, port tunnel, motorway network, etc. But god help you if you want to spend a mere 1 million on new ticket machines which will speed up dwell times and make Leap actually work properly!

    The issue with the ticket machines shows a clear failure at DB and NTA management level to clearly understand the requirements of the Leap project and speedy well integrated ticketing.

    I honestly believe that spending just a few million on new ticketing machines and introducing true multi-modal integrated ticketing (Amsterdam style per km tag-on/tag-off system) would have as much benefit as a 300 million Luas line.

    But then it isn't as sexy and there is no fancy ribbon cutting photo op for the politicians.



    Well I think we could all argue that decisions should not have been taken, but it could have been that there was uncertainty about when the newer technology would be available and when would smart ticketing be rolled out, or it could have been an issue of use the funds now or don't get them at all (as is often the case in the public sector). None of us are privy to the discussions that would have gone on at the time.


    Unfortunately our public transport providers are ultimately at the behest of the Department of Transport via the NTA. It's down to the DoT how much funds are made available, and then to the NTA as to which projects warrant the investment.


    Like most people I'd love to see the fare structure on Dublin Bus simplified, but realistically that is not going to happen while the company's financial position is as dire as it is. I would be of the view that the company simply cannot afford the risk of any shock to the system right now, as they're already absorbing the additional annual back office costs of running LEAP, reduced farebox revenue from LEAP (lower fares) and now the reduction in child revenue due to the extension of the age limits. They've all had a fairly major impact during a time when revenue was falling regardless. In the same vein the NTA are eliminating the fare anomalies in the Irish Rail Short Hop Zone over three years to avoid a major jolt to the company/users.


    I think in time when things have stabilised, it will be something to be addressed, but I just cannot see it happening in the short-medium term.


    That's where I think people need to be realistic in their expectations in terms of what can be delivered. There is a very clear plan for the funding in relation to LEAP rollout over the next 15 months, and that was referenced here in an earlier thread. While we all want to see things happen now, the reality is that change is going to continue to be phased in.


  • #58
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    With regards to the extension of child card users, all they needed to do was just make it relevant for school times, as was the case already with cash.


  • #59
    AngryLips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,762 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    loyatemu wrote: »
    London taking steps to move away from Oyster:
    http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/sep/16/london-tube-contactless-payments-underground-oyster

    I'm not sure how contactless payment will work. Most people have more than one credit/debit card - unless you can sync profiles across multiple cards then you'll end up in situations where people are being overcharged because they're not consistently using the same card throughout the day for all the journeys made.


  • #60
    hibby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭hibby


    How long after touch-on is a leap card valid for travel on the Luas?

    How long after I touch on will a touch result in another touch-on instead of a touch-off?

    Are these questions answered anywhere on the leap card website?

    Thanks!


    Just in case my questions are hard to understand, let me give an example:
    - Touch on at Charlemont and board southbound Luas;
    - Get off at Balally without touching off;
    - Spend an hour shopping in Dundrum;
    - Return to Balally and board southbound Luas without touching on;
    - Get off at Cherrywood. Touch the card to the card reader. 85 minutes have elapsed since I touched on in Charlemont.

    1) Is this a legal and acceptable use of the Luas card? If so/if not; at what time does it become unacceptable?
    2) What happens when I touch the card to the reader at Cherrywood: does it touch off or touch on again? At what elapsed time does it change from touch off to touch on?


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    lxflyer wrote: »

    Like most people I'd love to see the fare structure on Dublin Bus simplified, but realistically that is not going to happen while the company's financial position is as dire as it is. I would be of the view that the company simply cannot afford the risk of any shock to the system right now, as they're already absorbing the additional annual back office costs of running LEAP, reduced farebox revenue from LEAP (lower fares) and now the reduction in child revenue due to the extension of the age limits. They've all had a fairly major impact during a time when revenue was falling regardless. In the same vein the NTA are eliminating the fare anomalies in the Irish Rail Short Hop Zone over three years to avoid a major jolt to the company/users.

    More excuses!

    A per km tag-on/tag-off system shouldn't have any effect on the fare box as the per km charge can be adjusted to equal the same amount of money made from the current staged fare system.

    It is just more transparent, fair and better integrated.

    Also Leap usage isn't costing DB. The NTA have been increasing cash fare prices far ahead of inflation to widen the gap with Leap, but that doesn't mean Leap is actually costing CIE anything. Leap is just the fare cost that we would really be paying in cash if Leap didn't exist!
    lxflyer wrote: »
    That's where I think people need to be realistic in their expectations in terms of what can be delivered. There is a very clear plan for the funding in relation to LEAP rollout over the next 15 months, and that was referenced here in an earlier thread. While we all want to see things happen now, the reality is that change is going to continue to be phased in.

    Yet more excuses. Leap has been in development for 15 years now and cost more then 50 million, I'm very tired of hearing your excuses for the debacle that is LEAP, in particular on Dublin Bus.

    Honestly lxflyer, all I ever hear from you is excuses why things can't be fixed. You NEVER criticise CIE companies or their lack of professionalism. It is always just excuse after excuse and it is very tiring.

    I suppose it reflect the mentality of CIE, some of it's employees and management, always excuses for problems. Never admit there is any problem, never look for ways to fix the problems or make the situation better. Just stick your head in the sand.


  • #62
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,084 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    what_traffic wrote: »
    Any idea's of launch date in Galway City Mrs OBumble?

    TFI just told me it's live now:

    leap-card-live-in-galway.PNG

    My guess is that next month's TaxSavers will be personalised Leaps, and that the public launch may be in a few weeks. But the 2nd part of that is pure guesswork.


  • #63
    what_traffic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,004 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    TFI just told me it's live now:

    leap-card-live-in-galway.PNG

    My guess is that next month's TaxSavers will be personalised Leaps, and that the public launch may be in a few weeks. But the 2nd part of that is pure guesswork.
    Thanks for that. Hopefully this will speed up the bus services. Currently a lot of delays on the Bus Eireann buses with drivers giving out change in Galway City; even though more and more people over the last few years are availing of the day and weekly tickets. Hopefully media and launch campaign will be substantial.


  • #64
    LoonyLovegood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭LoonyLovegood


    Bus Éireann just announced on twitter that Leap will be accepted on Galway City Services from September 28th.


  • #65
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    CTYIgirl wrote: »
    Bus Éireann just announced on twitter that Leap will be accepted from September 28th.

    I thought you can use leap already on certain BÉ services?

    It's a desperate indictment of leap that lxflyer can post more up to date information than leapcard.ie

    Their future transport operators webpage is (C)2011 ....


  • #66
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    hibby wrote: »
    How long after touch-on is a leap card valid for travel on the Luas?

    How long after I touch on will a touch result in another touch-on instead of a touch-off?

    Are these questions answered anywhere on the leap card website?

    Thanks!


    Just in case my questions are hard to understand, let me give an example:
    - Touch on at Charlemont and board southbound Luas;
    - Get off at Balally without touching off;
    - Spend an hour shopping in Dundrum;
    - Return to Balally and board southbound Luas without touching on;
    - Get off at Cherrywood. Touch the card to the card reader. 85 minutes have elapsed since I touched on in Charlemont.

    1) Is this a legal and acceptable use of the Luas card? If so/if not; at what time does it become unacceptable?
    2) What happens when I touch the card to the reader at Cherrywood: does it touch off or touch on again? At what elapsed time does it change from touch off to touch on?

    For single tickets it states the following
    Single tickets are valid 90 mins from time of issue, for one trip only. No breaks in journey are permitted. - See more at: http://www.luas.ie/single-and-return-tickets.html#sthash.vQESaKW5.dpuf

    If you are stopped on a tram after breaking your journey and asked for your leap card I would presume you could be fined as your tag-on time would indicate that you commenced that journey a good bit before the current tram you were on and just broke your journey contrary to the conditions of your ticket.


  • Advertisement
  • #67
    LoonyLovegood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭LoonyLovegood


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    I thought you can use leap already on certain BÉ services?

    It's a desperate indictment of leap that lxflyer can post more up to date information than leapcard.ie

    Their future transport operators webpage is (C)2011 ....

    I messed up, I meant in Galway on city services.


  • #68
    what_traffic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,004 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    CTYIgirl wrote: »
    I messed up, I meant in Galway on city services.

    Further information re LEAP on Bus Eireann services in Galway City posted in a similar thread in the Galway City forum
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92337839&postcount=18


  • #69
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    bk wrote: »
    'm very tired of hearing your excuses for the debacle that is LEAP, in particular on Dublin Bus.

    Honestly lxflyer, all I ever hear from you is excuses why things can't be fixed. You NEVER criticise CIE companies or their lack of professionalism. It is always just excuse after excuse and it is very tiring.
    Constructive posts only. It is not your place to criticise an individual like this.

    If you want to do something about a problem, do something constructive. Don't just criticise a third party.

    Moderator


  • #70
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/leap-card-now-in-galway-fares-up-to-16-cheaper/
    Leap Card now in Galway – fares up to 16% cheaper
    30/09/14

    The National Transport Authority’s Leap Card integrated ticketing scheme is now live in Galway City on Bus Éireann services and on City Direct services (from Cappagh to the West and Oranmore and Parkmore to the East of the City).

    Customers can choose an Adult, Student or Child Leap Card for better value and more convenient travelling. It is a pay-as-you-go smart card that pays for public transport services. Leap fares are 16% cheaper than the corresponding cash single ticket on Bus Éireann services (routes 401 – 410), and are the same price as cash fares on City Direct services (routes 411 – 413).

    In addition, commuters and more frequent travellers can upload a range of time-period tickets onto their Leap Card – 24-hour tickets, 7-day tickets, month-long tickets.

    Cards are available to buy and top-up in a range of Payzone agent shops in Galway (see www.payzone.ie for full details), or on our own dedicated website: www.leapcard.ie .

    Since its launch in Dublin in December 2011, the Leap Card has become an integral part of many people’s daily travelling behaviour. Some 700,000 cards are now in circulation, with 70 million journeys paid for by Leap since its launch. The card was launched for bus services in Cork earlier this year, and future plans include adding the cities of Limerick and Waterford and also incorporating new products and operators in the scheme.

    For more information on Leap Card, visit www.leapcard.ie


  • #71
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Something has been bugging me about this for a while and I still can't figure it out:

    What is the point of the load location on a Leap Card? Surely if I have to go to a shop to activate the top-up then I may as well just top it up in the shop anyway?


  • Advertisement
  • #72
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Something has been bugging me about this for a while and I still can't figure it out:

    What is the point of the load location on a Leap Card? Surely if I have to go to a shop to activate the top-up then I may as well just top it up in the shop anyway?

    The load location depends on which one you select:

    - Luas Validator
    - Irish Rail/Dart Validator
    - Payzone outlet

    Note it can't be topped up on Dublin Bus.

    So yes, you are correct, online top-ups are primarily only for people who use DART or Luas regularly. Dublin Bus users would be better off just buying the topup in the payzone shop or instead using auto-topup which does in fact work on Dublin Bus.

    The reason it doesn't work on DB, is because DB's tickets machines are too old, with too slow processing power and memory to properly support Leap card and online top-ups. Online top-ups on buses are absolutely possible, as they have been doing on buses in Atlanta since 2006!


  • #73
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    That still doesn't answer why it needs to be set up as so.

    Eg. when I top up my phone online or transfer money between accounts, shop on Amazon etc It happens generally instantaneously in most cases.

    Why can't I have €20 lobbed onto my leap card from the internet to the account without me having to go near a validator?

    I remember complaining about the Presto Card (Ontario's version of Leap) where it takes more than 24 hours for credit to top up onto your card when topping up online.

    Strikes of madness to me.

    ---

    Also auto top-up only allows a minimum top-up of €30 which again I can see no reason for. As a student leap user I have no need for such a high top-up amount.


  • #74
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    BonnieSituation wrote: »

    Why can't I have €20 lobbed onto my leap card from the internet to the account without me having to go near a validator?

    I remember complaining about the Presto Card (Ontario's version of Leap) where it takes more than 24 hours for credit to top up onto your card when topping up online.

    Strikes of madness to me.

    Also auto top-up only allows a minimum top-up of €30 which again I can see no reason for. As a student leap user I have no need for such a high top-up amount.

    Crediting your account and crediting the actual Card in your fisht are two different things.

    So different that even the Canadians have the same problem ?

    Auto Top-Up does exactly this,but only by virtue of You having done all the detail In Advance,via Direct Debit,so the amount is already electronically and permanently etched on your Cardchip's memory to be triggered at the same point every time.

    BTW,I would agree that the ATU limits are wildly out of kilter with the reality of modern Commuters cash-flow patterns...I can only suggest they were decided upon during the Skinny-Frappé era....;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #75
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,210 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The card is not 'connected', the card stores the balance and products so there has to be a way to synchronize the card

    The card has to work quickly, it would take far too long if it had to query the back office every time. Plus the system must be able to work even if the back office is offline.

    Dublin Bus CAN support collection of top up's however there isn't enough memory in the computer on the ticket machine to cope as every bus would have to store the update list for every card and be updated overnight, every night.

    If Dublin Bus replaced its equipment with something half modern it would be possible


  • #76
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Eg. when I top up my phone online or transfer money between accounts, shop on Amazon etc It happens generally instantaneously in most cases.

    Your phone has a live data connection, it's always connected to the outside world through phone signal and each time you make a call it connects to the network to check if you have enough balance.

    If you transfer money between accounts the online bank, which you connect to through a data connection, has a connection to other banks which allows this to be done.

    A leap card has no way of knowing when it is topped up, since the balance is stored on the CARD and until the card has some connection to the otuside world, it cannot know it has been topped up.

    This is the way things are throughout the world and the very same as on Oyster, the thing is it's not so noticeable in London since most people use Tube and are not so dependent on bus as Dublin.

    Think about it like this, how does a Sky Plus box get TV signal without a dish to connect it to the service or how does a land line phone get a phone call without a line in the house - same principle applies.

    This is the way it has to be since the Dublin Bus ticket machines are based on a processor released over 20 years ago and have less memory than a floppy disc or 650 times less than a CD.


  • #77
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    BTW,I would agree that the ATU limits are wildly out of kilter with the reality of modern Commuters cash-flow patterns...I can only suggest they were decided upon during the Skinny-Frappé era....;)
    No, it was decided after the Beta testing that started last year, which the objective of minimising non-payments and transaction costs.

    Also, you can only do a auto top-up once per 7 days (to avoid transaction overlaps and make sure that multiple transactions don't fail) and a user could spend up to €70 in that 7 days (€30 in one calendar week and €40 in the other) or more if they use Leap Card on Bus Éireann.


  • #78
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Crediting your account and crediting the actual Card in your fisht are two different things.

    As it might be. But doesn't explain why this is so.

    The two posters below however have done so.
    So different that even the Canadians have the same problem ?

    The problem with Presto. And I can really only comment on my experience of it in Ottawa, which like Dublin is a bus dominated city, is that the 24 hr redundancy is built in. Their on board machines might well have the ability to register top ups unlike dubkjns, but they won't do so for 24hrs after the top up has occurred, on purpose.

    The reasoning behind this delay is not clear exactly and even if it was explained properly it would help to allay issues people have.

    Up to 48 hours from top up is ridiculous as per Leap.
    Auto Top-Up does exactly this,but only by virtue of You having done all the detail In Advance,via Direct Debit,so the amount is already electronically and permanently etched on your Cardchip's memory to be triggered at the same point every time.

    Yeah, Sepa helps this I suppose. But it just seems unintuitive. I appreciate that the nuances aren't very clear to me as to how the crediting system works, but given my large interest in it I can't see how some normal less nerdy Joe Public would get their heads around it.

    BTW,I would agree that the ATU limits are wildly out of kilter with the reality of modern Commuters cash-flow patterns...I can only suggest they were decided upon during the Skinny-Frappé era....;)

    It's not that €30 is too much, it's just that it is largely a waste for me personally.

    I'm sure there's a lot of bus only using Student Leap users out there in the same boat given our Max spend per week is €20 PW.


  • #79
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    The card is not 'connected', the card stores the balance and products so there has to be a way to synchronize the card

    The card has to work quickly, it would take far too long if it had to query the back office every time. Plus the system must be able to work even if the back office is offline.

    Dublin Bus CAN support collection of top up's however there isn't enough memory in the computer on the ticket machine to cope as every bus would have to store the update list for every card and be updated overnight, every night.

    If Dublin Bus replaced its equipment with something half modern it would be possible

    This wasn't clear to me as to the flowchart/logistics of the top up itself.

    Cheers.

    So I can blame DB and not Leap. :)

    Any reason for the 1second tag time on a bus as opposed to other quicker systems elsewhere?


  • #80
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    devnull wrote: »
    Your phone has a live data connection, it's always connected to the outside world through phone signal and each time you make a call it connects to the network to check if you have enough balance.

    If you transfer money between accounts the online bank, which you connect to through a data connection, has a connection to other banks which allows this to be done.

    A leap card has no way of knowing when it is topped up, since the balance is stored on the CARD and until the card has some connection to the otuside world, it cannot know it has been topped up.

    This is the way things are throughout the world and the very same as on Oyster, the thing is it's not so noticeable in London since most people use Tube and are not so dependent on bus as Dublin.

    Think about it like this, how does a Sky Plus box get TV signal without a dish to connect it to the service or how does a land line phone get a phone call without a line in the house - same principle applies.

    This is the way it has to be since the Dublin Bus ticket machines are based on a processor released over 20 years ago and have less memory than a floppy disc or 650 times less than a CD.

    When I posted my query I didn't consider the logistics of the actual top up and was unaware of the issue with DB machines.

    The comparison to London doesn't wash as I'm sure there are no issues with collecting a top up up on a bus there?

    That in a bus dominated city such as Dublin, that this functionality isn't available is frankly unacceptable. I'm sure you'd agree.

    Cheers for the explanation. I didn't think my issue through totally. Still, an explanation on the leap sire wouldn't go amiss.


  • #81
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Victor wrote: »
    No, it was decided after the Beta testing that started last year, which the objective of minimising non-payments and transaction costs.

    But wasn't that the end goal of SEPA too outside of the cross border implications?

    Not allowing 5, 10 topups I can understand, and should hardly be an issue really. But a weekly top up of 20 is a more reasonable thing to expect of a system.

    I shall register my complaint post-haste. :)


  • Advertisement
  • #82
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    When I posted my query I didn't consider the logistics of the actual top up and was unaware of the issue with DB machines.

    The comparison to London doesn't wash as I'm sure there are no issues with collecting a top up up on a bus there?

    That in a bus dominated city such as Dublin, that this functionality isn't available is frankly unacceptable. I'm sure you'd agree.

    Cheers for the explanation. I didn't think my issue through totally. Still, an explanation on the leap sire wouldn't go amiss.

    London has exactly the same problem - you cannot collect topups through the ticket machines on board buses there either - you have to go to a station or a shop.

    This is not a Dublin specific issue, despite what some posters would like you to believe.

    For the record, new ticketing equipment is due to arrive in 2015.


  • #83
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,487 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    lxflyer wrote: »
    London has exactly the same problem - you cannot collect topups through the ticket machines on board buses there either - you have to go to a station or a shop.
    But, if I understand it correctly, you can 'collect' an auto-topup. How does that work?


  • #84
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    In both Dublin and London auto top up works by triggering a top up automatically once the balance on the card reaches €10.

    The system automatically increases the balance by your designated top up amount and triggers a direct debit from your bank account. If the DD doesn't work the card will subsequently be blocked.

    In other words the card knows to trigger a top up when the balance hits €10. It's not "collecting" it as such.


  • #85
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,487 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    When you say the 'system' do you mean the ticket machines? If so, how do they know what the designated top-up amount is?


  • #86
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Alun wrote: »
    When you say the 'system' do you mean the ticket machines? If so, how do they know what the designated top-up amount is?

    No - the card knows to do it. The information is stored on the card after you set it up. It will up the balance by the designated amount automatically when it goes below €10.

    When the transactions are downloaded at night from the ticket machines the direct debit will be triggered. If it subsequently fails, the card will be blocked.

    The ticket machines store the bare information - the transactions that have taken place during the day.


  • #87
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    lxflyer wrote: »
    London has exactly the same problem - you cannot collect topups through the ticket machines on board buses there either - you have to go to a station or a shop.

    Cheers for that. I just assumed given the length of time Oyster has been active.
    This is not a Dublin specific issue, despite what some posters would like you to believe.


    The thing is though it's only a recent issue as I always topped up at Luas machines when I lived in Smithfield. I now live in Lucan so it has become a pain when the top-up day and my pay don't overlap. Ah well.
    For the record, new ticketing equipment is due to arrive in 2015.

    Good to know.


  • #88
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Any reason for the 1second tag time on a bus as opposed to other quicker systems elsewhere?

    Same basic reason the ticket machines don't support online top-ups. They are too old and underpowered to properly support all the extra Leap card software.

    That is why the ticket machines badly need to be replaced with more modern models, to allow support for all this extra functionality.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    London has exactly the same problem - you cannot collect topups through the ticket machines on board buses there either - you have to go to a station or a shop.

    True, but then London Bus allows you to pay by your contactless debit or credit cards. Which is a far superior option. No need to even have a Leap/Oyster card and no need to maintain a balance on your Leap/Oyster card. No need for online topups or enabling expensive auto top-ups.

    Just simply use your bank debit card that most people in the UK already have. It even supports daily and weekly caps! Far, FAR, superior to anything Leap can do.

    https://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/contactless-payment-on-buses?intcmp=1715

    Given this functionality, it makes sense that they haven't bothered to implement online top-ups on London Bus. The thinking goes that infrequent users will just use their contactless debit card and even benefit from daily and weekly capping. The only people who should actually carry Oyster cards are frequent users with monthly or annual cards.

    I don't think they can't do it, it is just they have such greater functionality with contactless payments that it just isn't needed.

    So please stop using London Buses lack of support for online topups as an excuse for Dublin Buses poor functionality when London Bus has such a superior functionality.

    I really hope the same conactless payments technology will also come to DB, Dart, Luas etc. in future. It is such a superior system to Leap ewallets.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    For the record, new ticketing equipment is due to arrive in 2015.

    What are you basing that on? The NTA slides we have all seen previously? Or do you have stronger confirmation of this happening?
    goingnowhere wrote:
    Dublin Bus CAN support collection of top up's however there isn't enough memory in the computer on the ticket machine to cope as every bus would have to store the update list for every card and be updated overnight, every night.

    You are correct, but your comment above makes it sound like it would require a lot of memory. It wouldn't, I'd be surprised if it required more then a 1MB file. To put that in context, you can now buy smartphones for €40 (no contract, unlocked) which have 4GB (~4000MB) of memory.

    The fact that the DB ticket machines couldn't even handle a 1MB file shows just how bad, old and underpowered they are.


  • #89
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,487 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    lxflyer wrote: »
    No - the card knows to do it. The information is stored on the card after you set it up. It will up the balance by the designated amount automatically when it goes below €10.
    So does that mean that when you set up the card for auto-topup you have to either visit a payzone outlet or tag on at a Luas or IE ticket machine to have that information written to the card? Sorry for all the questions :)


  • #90
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Alun wrote: »
    So does that mean that when you set up the card for auto-topup you have to either visit a payzone outlet or tag on at a Luas or IE ticket machine to have that information written to the card? Sorry for all the questions :)
    Yes, but only the once.


  • Advertisement
  • #91
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    But wasn't that the end goal of SEPA too outside of the cross border implications?
    I don't know enough about SEPA to comment.
    Not allowing 5, 10 topups I can understand, and should hardly be an issue really. But a weekly top up of 20 is a more reasonable thing to expect of a system.

    I shall register my complaint post-haste. :)
    I've updated my post: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92440293&postcount=77


  • #92
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Alun wrote: »
    So does that mean that when you set up the card for auto-topup you have to either visit a payzone outlet or tag on at a Luas or IE ticket machine to have that information written to the card? Sorry for all the questions :)



    Yes - as that's the only way you can get the information physically onto the card. But once you've done that you don't have to visit a payzone agent again, unless you want to load a period pass onto the card, such as a Dublin Bus 30 day rambler ticket.

    To be fair I think your questions are legitimate.

    It took me a while to get my head around some aspects, but using Oyster as frequently as I have done over recent years has been a help, given there is much similarity in the two products.


  • #93
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,487 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Yes - as that's the only way you can get the information physically onto the card. But once you've done that you don't have to visit a payzone agent again, unless you want to load a period pass onto the card, such as a Dublin Bus 30 day rambler ticket.

    To be fair I think your questions are legitimate.
    Thanks. As with all such things, knowing exactly how they work can assist in figuring out what may have gone wrong when they don't work quite as expected.


  • #94
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Alun wrote: »
    Thanks. As with all such things, knowing exactly how they work can assist in figuring out what may have gone wrong when they don't work quite as expected.



    Also knowing why things don't work as you expect is helpful!


  • #95
    Stevek101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    You can activate auto top up on a Dublin Bus you don't have to go to a "live" terminal.


  • #96
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Stevek101 wrote: »
    You can activate auto top up on a Dublin Bus you don't have to go to a "live" terminal.

    Not true, when you first set it up, you have too "activate" it first time on a live terminal. From then on auto topups will work on Dublin Bus.


  • Advertisement
  • #97
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    New thread for October 2014: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057300937


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement