Buying bitcoins

pro_gnostic_8 · 31-03-2017 9:38pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

(I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to see more discussion here for the same reason).

TBH, I'm surprised that a message board such as Boards.ie with it's dozens of sub-forums catering for virtually every interest does not have one dedicated to cryptocurrency/bitcoin -- one of most innovative and game-changing technologies of the past decade.

cnocbui · 31-03-2017 9:55pm

These alternative coins with all these fancy superior features rather intrigue me. I have read about the fungibility of some, making them useful for drug dealers, the mafia, paying for hits on people or for buying dodgy things in general. I have read a little about Etherium and it's smart contracts. The one thing I haven't read is any evidence of any of these features actually being used in the real world to any degree that matters. They all seem just hypothetical.

It seems to me that the most useful features a crypto can have are for it be widely accepted and recogised as having value and for it be easily bought and sold with fiat currencies widely, without having to do a deal on an obscure forum and having to meet up with Y0rWur5tN1ghtmar3 in an isolated and badly lit car park at 03:00, with a lot of cash on you.

So basically I am not worried about BTC being overtaken because as I see it, it already has the most useful features that would make a crypto useful.

I'm afraid I don't share your faith that bitcoins problems will be easily resolved. It is perfectly possible that they can't be resolved. I believe the traveling salesman prizes are still up for grabs after how many years?

I even think it possible that Satoshi Nakamoto is rolling around laughing his/her head off at the idea that people have bought into something that relies on exponentially increasing difficulty, computing power, energy and cost in order to keep going. It's an energy ponzi scheme, as far as I can tell, but none the less fascinating.

jobless · 31-03-2017 10:46pm

So I'm using exodus wallet, stuck a little bitcoin in it and finally got around to securing it... I probably got ahead of myself but i understand the 12 word seed is what i use to re-establish my account on another machine in case mine quits on me.. question is how do people keep this secure? ...I have it written down but if someone gets their hands on it I'm screwed right?.. don't fancy memorising it cause i know I'll forget it...

makeorbrake · 31-03-2017 11:16pm

cnocbui wrote: »

So basically I am not worried about BTC being overtaken because as I see it, it already has the most useful features that would make a crypto useful.

Nothing ever stays the same. Was there really much difference between myspace, bebo and facebook (I'm not a major fan of social media so perhaps there was - therefore, I don't know - but I doubt there was a massive difference).
BTC is a disruptive force - in a space that's evolving. It's open source so anyone can copy it and apply their own tweak to it. It could all be in the hands of the Dev team - such as what's going on right now. One wrong turn and the correct turn by an alternative currency and momentum could have switched from one to the other.

cnocbui wrote: »

I'm afraid I don't share your faith that bitcoins problems will be easily resolved. It is perfectly possible that they can't be resolved. I believe the traveling salesman prizes are still up for grabs after how many years?

What happened in the space of a couple of hours? In your pen-ultimate post, you were warning that we had no chance of seeing €600/btc?
Anyway, I'm not saying that it's in any way straightforward. However, it seems to be that segwit will alleviate things for the time being (in terms of scalability). However, it will only be one more hurdle - the talk will move immediately to the implementation of an off-chain solution such as Ligntening Network - and by all accounts, that's much further down the tracks in terms of development and real-world readiness. None of this is going to be easy - but my best guess is that it can come through (but best guess is all it is). If there's a hard fork, it can still come through - but not without some degree of damage.

cnocbui wrote: »

I even think it possible that Satoshi Nakamoto is rolling around laughing his/her head off at the idea that people have bought into something that relies on exponentially increasing difficulty, computing power, energy and cost in order to keep going. It's an energy ponzi scheme, as far as I can tell, but none the less fascinating.

The ever increasing difficulty part is genius - and is what gives btc its power - and makes it a store of value and unlike FIAT, it can't be manipulated. The energy costs is another big stumbling block - no doubt. However, it's not at the point of imploding because of the energy input just yet - so there's time for the community to address that issue yet.

scamalert · 31-03-2017 11:23pm

cnocbui wrote: »

These alternative coins with all these fancy superior features rather intrigue me. I have read about the fungibility of some, making them useful for drug dealers, the mafia, paying for hits on people or for buying dodgy things in general. I have read a little about Etherium and it's smart contracts. The one thing I haven't read is any evidence of any of these features actually being used in the real world to any degree that matters. They all seem just hypothetical.

It seems to me that the most useful features a crypto can have are for it be widely accepted and recogised as having value and for it be easily bought and sold with fiat currencies widely, without having to do a deal on an obscure forum and having to meet up with Y0rWur5tN1ghtmar3 in an isolated and badly lit car park at 03:00, with a lot of cash on you.

So basically I am not worried about BTC being overtaken because as I see it, it already has the most useful features that would make a crypto useful.

I'm afraid I don't share your faith that bitcoins problems will be easily resolved. It is perfectly possible that they can't be resolved. I believe the traveling salesman prizes are still up for grabs after how many years?

I even think it possible that Satoshi Nakamoto is rolling around laughing his/her head off at the idea that people have bought into something that relies on exponentially increasing difficulty, computing power, energy and cost in order to keep going. It's an energy ponzi scheme, as far as I can tell, but none the less fascinating.

ok the bold parts is the ones you got right rest is just your opinion.

simple question how many people do you think use it as actual currency to buy stuff online -speculation and dark web aside on daily basis ?

Now some might not agree but btc whatever it was created, as is heaven for those who made luck out of it, or already had business going and went dark web thats where it shines.

no rational person will buy btc to buy regular items when it takes tops 20seconds to do card payment or paypal, with security in place and tractability and guarantee of price and delivery and transaction happening in seconds.

since anonymity and being able to transfer it to any part of the world as payment is what keeps couple hundred thousand (my guess) people buying it as fiat=btc=fiat, rest just got into it for profits it brings whenever price crashes over the top or got drawn to it like it was stock or forex where you dont hold actual value in what you bet on but you still get impression that your holding value if you make cash out of it.

Now dont get me wrong im not against any of that since its a tool and medium.But in reality Fiat isnt going anywhere as people like to make doomsday out of it, and given how its created its a bit pointless waste of energy as you mentioned.

whole crypto boom is like that of dotcom where you never know what will make riches and become smth, or go bust.

Now i dont have vested interests in its price, it could go 10k it wouldn't affect me it could go 0 it wouldn't impact me either, since i see it as described fiat=btc=fiat.

While btctalk is like a cult thinking its revolution, but if it wasn't for darkweb i doubt anyone would have any actual real world usage for it, given all the alternatives that already exist and are way easier to use.

edit:makeorbrake has few valid points energy and difficulty yes keeps tabs on giving it somewhat of value but cap limit of 20mill and currency which is now 0.0000 isn't really world ready unless you want to carry calculator with you all the time.Its more elite trading stock for few that are willing to venture that far to trade.

also you say fiat manipulated.that is worst example comparing any crypto to fiat, which basically can be printed into oblivion and yes whatever cost 20years ago costs now maybe 20% more, but at least its not 1000% on rotating basis.

btw this is not attack just simple reality check, lets call things for what they are really useful, without major government conspiracy and ever changing politics in some African countries which cant keep tabs on its management since they are so corrupt, in other words where there is issue with fiat lossing value or transaction fees,people will take $ any day and 2-5 years later it might lose or gain 10 cents on value but will still be accepted be it some pit in Africa, Asia or USA.

makeorbrake · 31-03-2017 11:40pm

scamalert wrote: »

While btctalk is like a cult thinking its revolution,but if it wasn't for darkweb i doubt anyone would have any actual real world usage for it, given all the alternatives that already exist and are way easier to use.

It's gone beyond darkweb. I can't understand how you consider investing in it if you can't see any merit in it.

- The Feds can't manipulate it - I'm talking in terms of all that quantative easing that benefits some sections of society and not others.
- It's decentralised - ties into the point above.
- If you have to up sticks in the morning, you don't have to pack it. In case you laugh at this one, for millions of people around the world, this potentially is very relevant.
- You don't need a bank account. There are millions of people around the world that are unbanked. That said, if people in the west start to adopt it, then banking will be cannibalised.
- Whilst there are concerns about anonymity - it can be used anonymously - if you go the right way about it. This is not just relevant to darkweb types. Remember, some countries are very close to adopting their very own CENTRALISED digital currencies. Once they do that, there is no transaction you will make that someone can't figure out. Consider the privacy implications of that alone.
- It can't be used right now for micro-payments. However, it's entirely possible that this aspect of the currency will be fixed so that it can in the near future.
- It can be setup such that payments are made per unit or minute or what not.
- It can be setup so that machines can take/make payment - via a smart contract element.

You may say 'cult' - but there are tangible reasons to be excited about this development. The only imponderables are in the growing pains, it's development, etc.

scamalert wrote:

....but cap limit of 20mill and curency which is now 0.0000 isnt really world ready unless you want to carry calculator with you all the time.

I really don't see this being such a big issue in the long term (and it is a long term project). Coin to paper took 200 years. Credit cards took 40 years before there was mass adoption. They're thinking in terms of 20 years with btc. You won't be going round with a calculator if btc becomes ubiquitous. Granted, we are a long way off that - but ultimately people can get their heads around it if they really want to.

The bottom line is that we in the west can manage just fine without btc with our visa debit cards and such. However, there are people in more unstable parts of the world where they will risk life and limb and still use bitcoin. It's been banned in places like Venezuala and people still use it. In China, they tried to curb it - closing down the bank accounts of the exchanges. Prohibition doesn't work. The work around was that they started to sell bitcoin vouchers in shops - circumventing the banking industry in it's entirety. The chinese administration rolled back when they saw what was happening. They have certain controls in place right now - but they won't go nuclear and ban it - as they know that if there is demand, then one way or another, people will get their hands on it.

In India, people are paying a 20% premium to get their hands on bitcoin. It's in the developing world where the need for adoption is greatest - this will be where the momentum builds in the first instance. That doesn't mean that it won't lead to uptake in the west also.

scamalert wrote:

also you say fiat manipulated.that is worst example comparing any crypto to fiat, which basically can be printed into oblivion and yes whatever cost 20years ago costs now maybe 20% more,but at least its not 1000% on rotating basis.

You gotta be kiddin' me? :-)
It's the best possible example. When FIAT (which we all use) is manipulated, all us little people pay for that. Of course you can and should compare the merits of FIAT with the merits or otherwise of cryptocurrency. A cryptocurrency that can't be manipulated keeps us all honest. FIAT on the other hand is being manipulated every day of the week....whether it's at a brazen unsophisticated level with some African despot sticking his hand in the til or a more savvy manipulation cloaked in fine terms such as quantitative easing (which essentially amounts to the same thing - they're devaluing the pieces of paper you have in your wallet). The trickery that goes on with over-leveraging i.e. your money probably isn't there - if we all went to collect tomorrow, it wouldn't be there.

scamalert wrote:

but at least its not 1000% on rotating basis.

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Are you referring to the volatility of BTC as a currency? That's only to be expected given that it's evolving and more significantly, the volume of that currency is just a drop in the ocean by comparison with established FIAT currencies. The market capitalisation of BTC doesn't reach the level of many corporations. As it expands, the idea is that the volatility will reduce proportionately. Whenever ultimately it does settle down (and we're a long, long way from that), it should be very steady - with predictable level of inflation - as that can be figured out - there is no fiddling with interest rates or q.e., etc. to figure in the calculations.

cnocbui · 01-04-2017 12:45am

I don't agree with a single thing you have said.

scamalert · 01-04-2017 12:47am

well i see what you mean, but btc isn't excluded from manipulation be it Chinese having cheap power and building asic farms, to someone setting fees or fights between few major elites how to form the future of the crypto is actually manipulation in my view.

as for countries with government and fiat issues mostly 3rd world i doubt people making 1-10$ a day would some how be better of with smth that could easily cost them livelihood.

In future once or if btc overcomes its issues, it might be the solution but certainly there are better options for them now.
Since dont think its major issue if someone making few hundred a year in $ doesn't know where to keep it, more of priority would be for someone struggling to make enough to feed themselves in this situation.

As you pointed we in the west do pay for devaluation and daily volatility but its hardly affecting our livelihood if its 1 or 10 euros out of the pocket, as it currently stands.

only good i see that now at least its easier to send cash to india and the likes, so guess in this situation its little steps.

makeorbrake · 01-04-2017 1:53am

cnocbui wrote: »

I don't agree with a single thing you have said.

I'm all good with that. If we all agreed, things would be pretty boring - there would be no interest in speculation - and the opportunities that can bring with it.

scamalert wrote: »

well i see what you mean, but btc isn't excluded from manipulation be it Chinese having cheap power and building asic farms, to someone setting fees or fights between few major elites how to form the future of the crypto is actually manipulation in my view.

Apples and oranges in terms of comparison. Tinkering with interest rates, devaluations, quantitative easing - joe public has to pay for all of that. Yes, there is an issue in terms of stakeholder groups with BTC. I had concerns about that myself but as someone here explained it to me, changes are still made by consensus and adoption or otherwise (be it of the current btc offering, a variant in the event of a hard fork or some other crypto) is market led.

scamalert wrote: »

as for countries with government and fiat issues mostly 3rd world i doubt people making 1-10$ a day would some how be better of with smth that could easily cost them livelihood.

Something that could easily cost them livelihood? I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean that they can't embrace BTC because of it's volatility? Tell that to folks in Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Ukraine, Argentina, etc. BTC volatility they will accept ahead of the basket cases they have with their sovereign currencies.
I visited with friends in Ukraine a few times in 2014 when the war was in full swing. Their currency (UAH) tanked. One of those guys was converting his salary each month from UAH to BTC - immediately upon receipt of it. UAH is still a basket case today - it has not recovered from 2014 levels - in fact, it's worse now. The Ukranian Government responded by banning bitcoin in order to 'protect the people from financing terrorism'! That guy wasn't affected by that in the slightest. He still converted his salary to btc each month. The government there have changed tact - bitcoin is kind of legal - but they're still trying to manipulate it (but in effect, they can't stem demand for something - prohibition never works if there's enough demand and the conditions on the ground motivate people to create that demand).

scamalert wrote: »

In future once or if btc overcomes its issues, it might be the solution but certainly there are better options for them now.
Since dont think its major issue if someone making few hundred a year in $ doesn't know where to keep it, more of priority would be for someone struggling to make enough to feed themselves in this situation.

I suspect we are a long way from BTC settling down - it will most likely roll from one issue to the next (and hopefully, it will continue to overcome them as it comes up against them...as it has been doing to date). As regards options for people in these countries, what other options are there for them to store value/wealth (and I know we're generally talking about poor people but we're counting them in their 10's of millions - and even a proportion of them have some level of wealth that they want to protect)? I guess there's gold - but after that, what other option is there?

scamalert wrote:

As you pointed we in the west do pay for devaluation and daily volatility but its hardly affecting our livelihood if its 1 or 10 euros out of the pocket, as it currently stands.

1 or 10 euros? The financial crisis had cost every individual in Ireland €9000 each - for the period 2007 to 2011 (and we're still paying for it). The euro has been found out - it's not fit for purpose.

scamalert wrote:

only good i see that now at least its easier to send cash to india and the likes, so guess in this situation its little steps.

Remittances was one of the first areas that it was expected bitcoin would disrupt. It hasn't really succeeded yet - but it still might.

scamalert · 01-04-2017 2:18am

good discussion,im not denying benefits of btc as i did for long time, but keeping it real as well.

like you mention crisis 2009,well that crisis made well over 100k on top for someone i know once housing market collapsed buying for 1/3 which in less that 5 years became 2/3 back on price.

Could argue someone lost home, but someone made profit, thus even worst cases bring out win situations for some.

thus btc for everyone is different for me its way to buy stuff and speculate, for others to do business, and some are as far as considering it as any other currency.

Anyway seems this latest price run could been given due to japan's new law passed on crypto currency adoption if its not Aprils fools news

The Cuban · 01-04-2017 7:07am

I think some here are of the opinion that FIAT money is not digital. Quite the opposite, 90% of all FIAT money sits in Banks and all sorts of funds stored as bits on a digital ledger within these Banks. The ledgers are stored in central locations, controlled by the wealthy, corrupt and Government agencies.
The difference between Bitcoin and say the money in the Banks is Bitcoin is on a decentralized network. Its a flat network that ignores Countries Borders. No one controls the network, everyone owns it. Bitcoin gives back privacy, no longer can every transaction you make be scrutinized, recorded and analysed by private corporations and Governments, both of which will take there cut.
This network does not need a central controlling agency like central banks,or an authority to control it.
Currently everything is turning digital, soon we will start to hear that we no longer need cash! God help us if that happens, then every transaction we make will be under scrutiny. Bitcoin solves this problem, it gives back control of the money to the owner.
Bitchain technology is about much more than just the currency, the technology applications go much further.
Its a disruptive technology, but make no mistake it is the future, it can not be unmade.

makeorbrake · 01-04-2017 11:16am

The Cuban wrote: »

Currently everything is turning digital, soon we will start to hear that we no longer need cash! God help us if that happens, then every transaction we make will be under scrutiny. Bitcoin solves this problem, it gives back control of the money to the owner.

It's a truly appalling prospect. However, it's already set in train - with some states further down the line with it than others.
That said, it could be the best thing ever for Bitcoin - as it could lead to mass adoption. Lets hope that BTC can jump over those scaling hurdles and put itself in a position that it can scale up quickly - in response to scenarios like this.

scamalert · 01-04-2017 12:02pm

The Cuban wrote: »

I think some here are of the opinion that FIAT money is not digital. Quite the opposite, 90% of all FIAT money sits in Banks and all sorts of funds stored as bits on a digital ledger within these Banks. The ledgers are stored in central locations, controlled by the wealthy, corrupt and Government agencies.
The difference between Bitcoin and say the money in the Banks is Bitcoin is on a decentralized network. Its a flat network that ignores Countries Borders. No one controls the network, everyone owns it. Bitcoin gives back privacy, no longer can every transaction you make be scrutinized, recorded and analysed by private corporations and Governments, both of which will take there cut.
This network does not need a central controlling agency like central banks,or an authority to control it.
.

well im not a fan of banks,whoever in their life tried to take out say 5k in cash from bank you always get rollover eyes and questions,think some even now implementing where you need to give notice to take amounts of 5k in advance which is really a joke,given you put money there for keeping not ransom.

while governments or central banks can manipulate it dont think fiat is going anywhere soon then again, if you asked about brexit or trump becoming president and how it impacts economies few years back i wouldn't believed it either.

But as BTC stands now its still very flawed and not ready for world wide usage, even someone mentioned before me if there was sudden influx the network would easily choke, not to mention scaling issues and core/miners.Eventually once those issues are solved and if nothing interferes with it being decentralized then imagine next phase will begin.

As for now many people might of heard of btc but many are weary of its usage since its still very closely tied to darknet as main transaction currency, and too volatile for most, to see it as currency as opposed to stock that moves a lot.

Since was reading btc daily usage and after nearly decade its hardly there's more then 25-100 thousand transactions that are used as payment, outside onion network on daily basis which is very low numbers.

The Cuban · 01-04-2017 7:35pm

scamalert wrote: »

As for now many people might of heard of btc but many are weary of its usage since its still very closely tied to darknet as main transaction currency, and too volatile for most, to see it as currency as opposed to stock that moves a lot.

Since was reading btc daily usage and after nearly decade its hardly there's more then 25-100 thousand transactions that are used as payment, outside onion network on daily basis which is very low numbers.

Yes as it stands bitcoin cannot handle mass adoption yet, but it is improving, solutions will get sorted. As for Bitcoin being used only for shady activity? (I think Monero has taken that crown) but back in the early days of the internet they said that it was only for Porn, drugs, software piracy and other illegal activities. Instead people shared 100 million kitten videos on youtube, setup blogs, sold goods, played video games, watch TV etc
Bitcoin is been used for legitimate activities too.
Just think when you buy something over the internet through Visa or Paypal they take a cut, and a greedy cut too. If you send money by Bank transfer of SEPA it takes days. Then your data is then scrutinized and shipped off to god knows where.
The sooner Bitcoin improves the better the world will be. Do yourself a favor and own at least one of the 20 million Bitcoins

makeorbrake · 01-04-2017 9:14pm

This nonsense about BTC being the root of all darknet evil is a myth. Here's a photo of U.S. $207 million of meth dealers money 2 years before Bitcoin was fully released as an open source solution =>

Run a search and you'll find similar photo's of massive hauls of stacks of fresh green Benjamin's confiscated from the various drugs cartels in between then and now. Of course, Bitcoin (or any other crypto) can be used for good or evil - but it's just a store of value. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. When the interweb first started to gain momentum, it was defined as an enabler of paedo's , etc. The suggestion was a ridiculous over-reaction - when www communication has enhanced the lives of every single one of us.

U.S. Dollars have always been central to illicit trades (whilst also being used by ordinary joe's every day of the week). Bitcoin will be the same....yet it is not being presented in the same way.

Bitcoin threatens to step on the toes of the power brokers of society - those behind the banking behemoth. It shouldn't surprise anyone that this misinformation is being spread about the evils of BTC.

scamalert · 01-04-2017 10:07pm

Yes correct, same as blood diamonds, oil or any other mineral that's been used and abused.But im not in morality area where to tell people how to use it.Fact is thou many will associate it with it since whenever btc came to life and got into tor network think whoever got to hear about it for the first time it would been stories covering drugs etc, and in many cases is still today, when comes to media reporting it.

Granted dark web isn't actually that big of a place nowadays and more mainstream stuff is bought using btc, but its still in many cases only crypto that's accepted on web deals, even thou who uses it are mostly small timers and far off from cartels or terrorists.

makeorbrake · 01-04-2017 10:19pm

scamalert wrote: »

Fact is thou many will associate it with it since whenever btc came to life and got into tor network think whoever got to hear about it for the first time it would been stories covering drugs etc, and in many cases is still today, when comes to media reporting it.

Of course - but then you have to question the nature of our media. Remember there is no media without prejudice - and money talks. BTC market cap remains tiny - so old money continues to pull the strings...

scamalert wrote:

But im not in morality area where to tell people how to use it

In the same way as it would be futile for me to tell you how to spend your euro or bitcoin, you might spend it on groceries or hookers and coke. Me telling you how to spend it isn't going to change that. Of course I could be wrong on that. Someone more powerful than you and I seems to think that he can solve one of the worlds political problems simply by telling someone not to do something they've been doing for years

The art of the deal...such craft.

scamalert · 02-04-2017 1:45pm

Theres so many laws these days, that keep strangling regular Joe, from politicians who have only their interests, to lies from whats best to people -but that's political field which hardly changes once years pass.

Ive mentioned i like btc idea, realized its potential to late, but at least know a bit about it now,to consider it as alternative option to put spare cash away.

And as said it took decades for money, cc cards to get accepted btc isn't excluded from that it will take years of further development, before it gets recognized more, which given current situation is totally fine, since user base of it is quite large now and dont think its shrinking in any way.

Thargor · 02-04-2017 10:02pm

Cant shake the feeling I should stick a grand or two in Ethereum and see what happens, I think Im going to chance it.

makeorbrake · 02-04-2017 10:37pm

Thargor wrote: »

Cant shake the feeling I should stick a grand or two in Ethereum and see what happens, I think Im going to chance it.

I've been struggling to get to grips with BTC (and to keep up to date with the fast pace in which it moves). With that, I simply have not built up a decent knowledge of other crypto's.

The little I understand is that ethereum is better dispositioned for the purpose of smart contracts. How does it differ from BTC precisely and what makes it invest-able right now generally? Has it not blown up in value in the past few months? Is this not a bubble caused by the immediate challenges (scale-ability) that BTC is facing or do you see this as organic.justified growth?

cnocbui · 03-04-2017 10:38am

Bitcoin is up 4.5% while Etherium is down 9.2%

I must say, buying Etherium wouldn't be my favoured play. As I see it, the whole bitcoin forking thing spooked a lot of people, and rather than go fiat they rotated into Etherium, causing its price to surge. The Bitcoin United hash rate has not been going anywhere, it is still oscillating in the 35-42% range. They do not appear to be winning new converts or the argument. We may be seeing people rotating out of Etherium and back into bitcoin as they become more confident the Unlimited proposal is less likely to cause an upset than it appeared a couple of weeks ago.

The Cuban · 03-04-2017 3:01pm

The Best way to avoid the volatility is to keep buying every week or so. Ive been plugging away at buying them for nearly a year now. I originally thought I had missed the boat when the price moved from $200 to $400 but it has jumped again. I used to buy Altcoins any week I thought Bitcoin was too high but now I just buy regardless of the price.
I am more happy to buy now because I know that if Bitcoin is established as the no.1 currency in the world the value of each coin will be far higher than $1100.

Dohnjoe · 03-04-2017 3:33pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

It's gone beyond darkweb. I can't understand how you consider investing in it if you can't see any merit in it.

- The Feds can't manipulate it - I'm talking in terms of all that quantative easing that benefits some sections of society and not others.
- It's decentralised - ties into the point above.
- If you have to up sticks in the morning, you don't have to pack it. In case you laugh at this one, for millions of people around the world, this potentially is very relevant.
- You don't need a bank account. There are millions of people around the world that are unbanked. That said, if people in the west start to adopt it, then banking will be cannibalised.
- Whilst there are concerns about anonymity - it can be used anonymously - if you go the right way about it. This is not just relevant to darkweb types. Remember, some countries are very close to adopting their very own CENTRALISED digital currencies. Once they do that, there is no transaction you will make that someone can't figure out. Consider the privacy implications of that alone.
- It can't be used right now for micro-payments. However, it's entirely possible that this aspect of the currency will be fixed so that it can in the near future.
- It can be setup such that payments are made per unit or minute or what not.
- It can be setup so that machines can take/make payment - via a smart contract element.

BTC holder here, it's not all positives, let's be realistic..

-It's inherently complex to understand
-It's inherently risky as hell/complex to hold (I keep mine on usb keys, god forbid there's a fire in the house or a robbery)
-None of the exchanges can be trusted to any high degree
-It's unstable and volatile (if you received your paycheck in BTC it would change in value literally day to day, you might not be able to afford a mortgage payment)
-You can't go buy groceries or food or just about anything useful with it - so it's almost useless in that regard
-Not even BTC users know what's going to happen with Segwit, a potential hard fork, what will happen, how it will split, will it be worth anything

Regardless of "future potential", the current risk and uncertainty is off the charts in comparison to any normal currency and it's "normal" day-to-day usability is next to zero

Great for rabid wild speculation and a potential fast buck though, which, let's be honest, is generating 99% of the real interest in cryptos

AlmightyCushion · 03-04-2017 4:52pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

-It's inherently risky as hell/complex to hold (I keep mine on usb keys, god forbid there's a fire in the house or a robbery)

Just on this point, is it possible to save it on some sort of cloud account like OneDrive or Dropbox.

Dohnjoe · 03-04-2017 4:55pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

Bitcoin threatens to step on the toes of the power brokers of society - those behind the banking behemoth. It shouldn't surprise anyone that this misinformation is being spread about the evils of BTC.

This is a bit of a lingering trope from the early BTC days. It's not a "threat" to anything, if anything banks are keenly interested, especially in the blockchain tech which they see as the future for much of their operations

Fiat is currently traceable and inside regulation - so we can e.g. trace a politician taking a bribe

For a good while BTC has been outside this loop, harder to trace, and as such has been an enticing conduit for drugs/laundering/etc - so it carries that unfortunate stigma

Every currency can be used for crime, but no one wants a potential future currency which is easier to use for illegal activity

miece16 · 03-04-2017 4:56pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Just on this point, is it possible to save it on some sort of cloud account like OneDrive or Dropbox.

its possible to save it in any online location but you run the risk of hacker groups potentially leaking databases to those services.

cnocbui · 03-04-2017 4:58pm

All true, however bitcoin has been the best performing currency every year since 2010, except for 2014. Volatility is part of the charm, how else are you going to profit from it? Try making money off relatively stable fiats.

It's fun to play with but I wouldn't commit my life savings to the game.

cnocbui · 03-04-2017 5:12pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Just on this point, is it possible to save it on some sort of cloud account like OneDrive or Dropbox.

You can save it anywhere, perfectly safely, with a simple understanding of encryption. All this hype about storing it offline on USB keys is overblown.

if you use an encrypted wallet, or encrypt the wallet with say PGP, so long as you keep your encryption key/s safe and offline there is next to no chance a hacker can steal your coins. of course, you do want an offline backup to protect against something like ransomware where someone else encrypts the contents of your drive.

All this is assuming you have good general safety habits for avoiding malware that might include keyloggers and screen grabbers.

makeorbrake · 03-04-2017 6:31pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

BTC holder here, it's not all positives, let's be realistic..

I thought it was a given that it's 'not all positives'. Given that to be the general assumption, my post was in the spirit of 'it's not all negatives'.
Bitcoin is in a constant state of change and development - and with that comes growing pains as it goes from one major obstacle to the next (once (or if) it overcomes the next one, there's already a secondary and more complex conundrum awaiting it (off-chain transactions).
Check out Bitcoin Obituaries - keeps a count on the number of occasions that BTC has been declared dead.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's inherently complex to understand
-It's inherently risky as hell/complex to hold (I keep mine on usb keys, god forbid there's a fire in the house or a robbery)

Couldn't agree with you more. To put up with the former, there has to be a hell of an incentive. There's little incentive for people in the west to use it for day to day use on this basis. As a store of value, there's a bit more for some of us - but then in any country there's strife, people will go to all sorts of lengths to obtain it - moreso than western countries - as in many instances, it's been banned (or at least regimes have attempted to ban it or control it) - and yet, those folks still see the value in it.
As regards it being complex to secure, hardware wallet can solve that BUT you can't get it wrong. i.e. you have to secure that private key - if you don't think it through (like in the example of the fire you mentioned), you're investment is toast. It being decentralised is what first attracted me (and many) to BTC - but you can't have it both ways. If that's what you want, then you have to take full responsibility and act responsibly - or you'll pay a hell of a penalty.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

-None of the exchanges can be trusted to any high degree

Agree completely. The answer to that is - don't! NEVER store BTC in a wallet belonging to an exchange - keep it in a hardware wallet.
That said, there is still one potential risk - and that's when transferring FIAT into your exchange account. It's something I'm not comfy with - and the only solution seems to be to transfer in at the last minute - and buy coin as soon as possible afterwards - transferring that coin to your hardware wallet upon purchase...and maybe break up those transactions into smaller tranches to minimise the risk.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

-It's unstable and volatile (if you received your paycheck in BTC it would change in value literally day to day, you might not be able to afford a mortgage payment)

It most definitely is - and it's clear why. When you look at the market capitalisation of BTC, it's still only embryonic when compared with established currencies. It's being held up against gold which has a track record of 2000 years.
Volatility will gradually dissipate as it expands - but that's going to be a long and slow process.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

-You can't go buy groceries or food or just about anything useful with it - so it's almost useless in that regard
-Not even BTC users know what's going to happen with Segwit, a potential hard fork, what will happen, how it will split, will it be worth anything

These two can be discussed together. It's simply unworkable for micropayments at the moment until the scalability issue is resolved.
As it stands right now, it's a store of value.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Great for rabid wild speculation and a potential fast buck though, which, let's be honest, is generating 99% of the real interest in cryptos

I'm only figuring stuff out - but I can't take to this shorting business at all. I don't understand it. I'm sure there are those that do (but I also get the impression that there are plenty that don't) - fair play to them - maybe one day I'll get my head around it - but I plan on sticking with it in the long run (albeit, yes, there is major risk along the way).

Dohnjoe wrote: »

This is a bit of a lingering trope from the early BTC days. It's not a "threat" to anything, if anything banks are keenly interested, especially in the blockchain tech which they see as the future for much of their operations

If it can get up to scale and critical mass, I believe it is very much a threat to the establishment. Remember it's decentralised. It can't be manipulated in the way that FIAT currency is. As regards the corporates and their 'private' blockchains, perhaps blockchain technology can be used internally to achieve synergies and cut costs. However, they've also been looking at having their own digital currencies - as have states (the most recent to suggest this has been China) - but they will never be comparable - as they will be centralised. Defeats the whole purpose.

Dohnjoe wrote:

Fiat is currently traceable and inside regulation - so we can e.g. trace a politician taking a bribe

What like quantitative easing?...all perfectly legal fraud - that devalues the FIAT in your pocket. The basket case mis-managed currencies where there is rampant inflation?

Dohnjoe wrote:

For a good while BTC has been outside this loop, harder to trace, and as such has been an enticing conduit for drugs/laundering/etc - so it carries that unfortunate stigma

I've seen merit in 95% of what you've stated thus far - no doubt whatsoever. However, this one is garbage. The 'stigma' is contrived - and is being bigged up. The U.S. Dollar remains the No.1 currency of choice for the vast majority of illicit activity in the world. That doesn't mean that we categorise it as being the domain of criminals. Terrorists drink water - should we ban water? Yet, as recently as yesterday, I read a 'news' report about a 'terrorist' who was a btc enthusiast. So what? It can be used for good or bad - the same way as FIAT cash.

Dohnjoe wrote:

Every currency can be used for crime, but no one wants a potential future currency which is easier to use for illegal activity

It's no easier than cash. And if you're thinking in terms of phasing out cash (and that's the plan from the various state administrations), be careful what you wish for. Every single transaction you ever make will be traceable. Power corrupts. I'd be happier with the libertarian ideal in this regard - and BTC goes a long way toward safeguarding against that eventuality.

My greatest fear remains that it will take a wrong turn and/or another crypto will take it's place. As it stands, there are many more developers contributing to bitcoin core - so that's a strength - but it still requires careful watching - as if this goes south, btc to be toast. Notwithstanding that, I don't think that we will be living in a world without decentralised cryptocurrency going forward.

The Cuban · 03-04-2017 7:49pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

I read a 'news' report about a 'terrorist' who was a btc enthusiast. So what? It can be used for good or bad - the same way as FIAT cash.

I think you are talking about Amir Taak, http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39417937
He is one of the original Bitcoin developers and considered among the most intelligent people on the planet. To call him a terrorist? Who really are the terrorists? maybe that could be the Media who love a bad story, or the governments and wealthy elite that spin this ****e. I call throwing bombs from 2 miles in the sky down on a city the act of modern terrorists.

makeorbrake wrote: »

My greatest fear remains that it will take a wrong turn and/or another crypto will take it's place. As it stands, there are many more developers contributing to bitcoin core - so that's a strength - but it still requires careful watching - as if this goes south, btc to be toast. Notwithstanding that, I don't think that we will be living in a world without decentralised cryptocurrency going forward.

There is a frenzy of Developers direct and indirectly working on Bitcoin. From developers of payment systems to just outright nasty hackers throwing everything including the kitchen sink at Bitcoin. None of the Alt-coins have anything near the level of development.
Whats holding back Bitcoin at the moment are the miners, they are milking money from it, so until they have an incentive for change Bitcoin will remain stagnant.

Dohnjoe · 03-04-2017 8:05pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

The U.S. Dollar remains the No.1 currency of choice for the vast majority of illicit activity in the world.

Indeed, but that's just to do with volume. There will always be elicit activity -
BTC has just shown that it has been indirectly a good vehicle for that activity

Want to buy drugs online? your safest bet is using BTC over fiat. It was the primary currency of the silk road - for obvious reasons.

Naturally that's how it earned this stigma. Again, it's just a side effect of benefits it has, but people will always take advantage of anything that isn't controlled/regulated/accountable/etc

makeorbrake · 03-04-2017 8:49pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Indeed, but that's just to do with volume. There will always be elicit activity

It doesn't matter about volume one jot.
Can both be used for ethical and illicit trade - yes. Bitcoin is at an embryonic stage in it's development - the U.S. Dollar is well established with a long history under it's belt.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Want to buy drugs online? your safest bet is using BTC over fiat. It was the primary currency of the silk road - for obvious reasons.

Sure, I agree - if you want to buy drugs or whatever online, btc would be more suitable.
If you want to buy drugs or whatever in person, us$ (at least right now) would be more suitable.

Dohnjoe wrote:

Naturally that's how it earned this stigma.

The stigma is being bigged up as shock horror stuff and being over-cooked. I'm sure it also suits the vested interests and/or world view of some to stoke that fire.

Dohnjoe wrote:

Again, it's just a side effect of benefits it has, but people will always take advantage of anything that isn't controlled/regulated/accountable/etc

Yup - and to try and control it would mean that it would have to move from decentralised to centralised - destroying one of the core reasons for the existance of BTC (not the only one - but a fundamental element). That's the trade-off.

scamalert · 04-04-2017 11:03am

dark web is advancing think in near future btc will be used more like exchange crypto to another more anonymous ones, was reading article yesterday on Monero, since one market place on darkweb agreed to implement it and its current gross worth is nearly 200mill, since it has better anonymity then btc, where in monero transactions are grouped and cant be traced back to address.and shows that simple darkweb market acceptance can easily boost any crypto in millions.

Another interesting crypto is zcash,was worth only few bucks last year and now its over 60$ ,which basically is totally non traceable back, whatever math used its non revertible as transactions go -not sure is it used anywhere thou.

Since a lot of new cryptos seems placed fixes that btc is flawed with be it anonymity, volume cap.

but none the less main issues remains is all cryptos are tied to being sold of exchanges,which are unsafe,and in many cases require basically a lot of personal details, since p2p solution in many cases is either risky or costs quite overhead.

But think crypto future is quite bright since looking by developments be it better crypto with more security or established like btc, option field to choose and development is growing in general, thus btc while its not perfect but it gave way to what i would say now crypto foundation on which if one fails there will be 100s more to replace it,and choose from.

Grumpypants · 04-04-2017 2:31pm

I had 0.5 bitcoin and 15 ETH in my account. Now that bitcoin has swung back up over â‚¬1000 and ETH back down to â‚¬40 I've moved â‚¬200 (0.2) of my bitcoin money over to ETH.

If bitcoin drops again I might buy more and top it back up to .5. I think it will continue to track up but with such a low amount invested the boost would need to be huge to see a decent return.

I've over 20 ETH now, so banking on that continuing the swing up especially since the in store point of sale tech is right around the corner which could be the catalyst to go main stream.

makeorbrake · 04-04-2017 5:47pm

Grumpypants wrote: »

especially since the in store point of sale tech is right around the corner which could be the catalyst to go main stream.

Are there some changes being implemented to Ethereum to make it more beneficial for micro-payments or is it just that ETH is much smaller in terms of volume right now and so it may be able to handle micro-payments right now (in the same way as BTC was previously until it came up against this scaling issue)?

Purely a question - I'm struggling to get up to speed on Bitcoin and have spent very little time investigating Alt-coins.

scamalert · 04-04-2017 6:14pm

looking for 50e trade if someone is interested,now.PM

DeSelby83 · 05-04-2017 8:34am

Have been loosely following some of the other coins and it seems litecoin is on its way to activating a segwit. Does anyone think it is a good time to dabble in LTC in the hope that a segwit will bump the price up?

makeorbrake · 05-04-2017 11:57am

DeSelby83 wrote: »

Have been loosely following some of the other coins and it seems litecoin is on its way to activating a segwit. Does anyone think it is a good time to dabble in LTC in the hope that a segwit will bump the price up?

Not in any way up to speed on alt-coins but from what I understand, there's some merit in the belief that they're acting as a testing environment for BTC. That's what is suggested here in this instance of testing of SegWit on Litecoin.

I'm unfamiliar with it - but does Litecoin have a current (immediate) scaling issue which would benefit from SegWit? Otherwise, could it be that BTC will be in the stronger position as a consequence of this - as they can evaluate any issues arising before implementing on BTC?

pro_gnostic_8 · 05-04-2017 9:42pm

Litecoin is very close now to Segwit activation (71% signalling today -- will reach the critical 75% in a day or two I reckon). This, no doubt, has driven the sharp price increase.
Now, if imminent Segwit has caused Litecoin to more than double in value in a few days, what would Segwit do for Bitcoin's price!

cnocbui · 05-04-2017 9:54pm

That would be nice, since I just grabbed some more today. Got them from Belgacoin about 12 hrs after initiating the SEPA transfer, so same day. Rabo seem pretty good at being timely with their transfers, but then they aren't an Irish bank.

Segwit looks to be only 5% behind Unlimited now.

makeorbrake · 05-04-2017 11:33pm

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

Litecoin is very close now to Segwit activation (71% signalling today -- will reach the critical 75% in a day or two I reckon). This, no doubt, has driven the sharp price increase.
Now, if imminent Segwit has caused Litecoin to more than double in value in a few days, what would Segwit do for Bitcoin's price!

Impossible question to answer completely - but is there an expected timeframe that this whole debacle will rumble on for? I guess what I mean is - what sort of duration of testing on litecoin is likely to be needed at a minimum before SegWit could be activated on btc?

There are a few of you here that have followed btc much more closely - and for longer - so you may have a better idea of how these things roll.....

Prezatch · 06-04-2017 8:40am

Interesting fact:

If the starter of this thread 'Brendan86' had bought what he said he wanted to buy on the day he started the thread he would have turned 1000 EUR into 25,136 had he sold on 1st of March this year (less some charges and currency fluctuation)... such is the rollercoaster of bitcoin

https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=Linear&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1488409200000&chddm=1858826&q=CURRENCY:BTCUSD&ntsp=1&ei=1_HlWJiqGcaYUM-qmNgE

I'm sure there are others on this forum that have made substantially more from it also

pro_gnostic_8 · 06-04-2017 9:17am

In early April 2013 I bought 50 bitcoins at $30 each with the proceeds of a very fortunate yankee on the horses. A total cost of $1,500.
By mid-June of the same year the price had rocketed to $100 and at that price I sold out. A return of $5,000 -- a profit of $3,500. I was chuffed to bits.
Then, the bitcoin price really started its rocket to the moon and touched $1,000 just two months after I sold.
I know I shouldn't look at it in this way, but I have always since considered that I lost 46,500 euro over a space of seven weeks. A sum bigger than my entire life savings.
I must be the world's worst "investor".

pro_gnostic_8 · 06-04-2017 9:20am

The above monetary amounts were actually in euro, but when I try to type euro -- "cntrl / alt + 4" -- it comes out as gobbledygook on here. :rolleyes:

pro_gnostic_8 · 06-04-2017 9:22am

cnocbui wrote: »

That would be nice, since I just grabbed some more today. Got them from Belgacoin

Looks like you're already up by about 40-50 euro in profit per coin since yesterday. Niiiiiiice.

pro_gnostic_8 · 06-04-2017 9:29am

makeorbrake wrote: »

Impossible question to answer completely - but is there an expected timeframe that this whole debacle will rumble on for? I guess what I mean is - what sort of duration of testing on litecoin is likely to be needed at a minimum before SegWit could be activated on btc?

But there won't be any testing on Litecoin, makeorbrake. When a 75% consensus or more signals Segwit for the duration of 2016 blocks ( one to two weeks), then, Segwit will be activated permanently.

How long it will take the Bitcoin community to decide on Segwit or B.U., I have no idea. That would be a guessing game or a crap shoot.

cnocbui · 06-04-2017 10:16am

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

Looks like you're already up by about 40-50 euro in profit per coin since yesterday. Niiiiiiice.

Thanks, normally my investing in something is usually the kiss of death for it, but that certainly was something nice to wake up to.

I just found this, and though aware of the basics, the article really sheets home how your typical greed and the relentless pressure towards monopolistic principles really seems to be behind Bitcoin Unlimited: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/mining-manufacturer-blocking-segwit-benefit-asicboost/

If it weren't for actually having skin in the game, I think I rather like the idea from the developers of re-writing the code so as to pull the plug on ASICS and democratise the mining process again, the way it was originally intended. In which case buying shares in AMD might be a good move, for those able to.

makeorbrake · 06-04-2017 11:13am

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

But there won't be any testing on Litecoin, makeorbrake. When a 75% consensus or more signals Segwit for the duration of 2016 blocks ( one to two weeks), then, Segwit will be activated permanently.

My fault for not clarifying what I meant. i.e. that the Bitcoin Core Dev's see the Alt-coins as a test bed - and therefore, this implementation on Litecoin can be seen to them as a 'test' in terms of their consideration of using SegWit on BTC.

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

How long it will take the Bitcoin community to decide on Segwit or B.U., I have no idea. That would be a guessing game or a crap shoot.

I knew I was asking a how long is a piece of string question but just wondered if we could get that to a ballpark figure i.e. likely to be decided upon within the next month, 3 months, 6 months, year, etc.

I started to buy some 6 months post-mtgox - and continued to buy modestly on a weekly basis for the next year and a half. Have not traded anything since in either direction - just held.

cnocbui · 06-04-2017 11:43am

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

In early April 2013 I bought 50 bitcoins at $30 each with the proceeds of a very fortunate yankee on the horses. A total cost of $1,500.
By mid-June of the same year the price had rocketed to $100 and at that price I sold out. A return of $5,000 -- a profit of $3,500. I was chuffed to bits.
Then, the bitcoin price really started its rocket to the moon and touched $1,000 just two months after I sold.
I know I shouldn't look at it in this way, but I have always since considered that I lost 46,500 euro over a space of seven weeks. A sum bigger than my entire life savings.
I must be the world's worst "investor".

I have learned to not sell out 100% of positions. Call me chicken.

The Cuban · 06-04-2017 12:00pm

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

In early April 2013 I bought 50 bitcoins at $30 each with the proceeds of a very fortunate yankee on the horses. A total cost of $1,500.
By mid-June of the same year the price had rocketed to $100 and at that price I sold out. A return of $5,000 -- a profit of $3,500. I was chuffed to bits.
Then, the bitcoin price really started its rocket to the moon and touched $1,000 just two months after I sold.
I know I shouldn't look at it in this way, but I have always since considered that I lost 46,500 euro over a space of seven weeks. A sum bigger than my entire life savings.
I must be the world's worst "investor".

Profit is profit always remember that. Its not easy to predict the crypto-currencies, its speculation. Price could loose 90% of its value very easily if things go wrong or do not get done.
No point dealing in the what ifs.

Buying bitcoins

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