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Father says his raped "sex mad" 11 year old was "fully up for the experience"

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    #92
    abbir
    Registered Users Posts: 770 ✭✭✭abbir


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    No of course not. But a male rape victim still has no risk of pregnancy or all that follows that risk, creating even more risk. Abortion...birth...raising a child....And there is NO law that covers those risks.

    There is the risk that a male rape victim could get the rapist pregnant and then be forced into paying child support. Or does that sound too ridiculous to happen?

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/


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    #93
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I don't think it's that the current legal definition of rape is outdated. That's simply the terminology, and the maximum sentence for sexual assault is the same as that for rape. The problem is in sentencing, and the sentencing being handed down for sex crimes is simply far too lenient. The idea of a six month custodial sentence, suspended for two years, is ludicrous, and it would be just as ludicrous were the genders reversed.

    It's the sentencing that doesn't appropriately reflect the suffering of some victims (as was seen in this case where the effect on the child doesn't appear to have even been considered by the judge). The wrangling over legal definitions or gender biases is at best a distraction from the real issue which is the leniency of sentencing for sex crimes.

    This is really a linguistic complaint.

    The sentencing is not that different.

    It's that rape has a stronger punch than sexual assault, which is a spectrum,and doesn't carry the same resonance... So it really has nothing to do with sentencing but more to do with cultural recognition via language.


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    #94
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    abbir wrote: »
    There is the risk that a male rape victim could get the rapist pregnant and then be forced into paying child support. Or does that sound too ridiculous to happen?

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/

    Yeah that's nuts. still statutory though.


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    #95
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    It's that rape has a stronger punch than sexual assault, which is a spectrum,and doesn't carry the same resonance... So it really has nothing to do with sentencing but more to do with cultural recognition via language.
    No, rape carries a maximum life sentence, sexual assault does not (10 years maximum, I believe, but could be corrected).


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    #96
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,007 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The Guardian wrote:
    A judge has been criticised after deciding not to imprison a 21-year-old babysitter who admitted sexual activity with the 11-year-old boy she was looking after.

    the boy’s father spoke up for Hatt in court, claiming his son was “fully up for the experience

    Jesus H Christ, the "father" thought the kid was young enough to need a babysitter and old enough to have sex?! What the actual fúck??


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    #97
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Not if they're prepubescent. So by your logic, if there is no threat of pregnancy, it's not as severe a crime. Your logic, not mine.

    What's this nonsense? Shall we talk about the weather too if we want to go off topic?

    You didn't specify pre pubuscence. It's up to you to be specific. Pedophilia covers a range.... it is also more accurate to refer to sex offenders or sex offences.

    There are a number of factors which will determine how severe a crime it is, the consequence of pregnancy would be one of those, but so would the levels of co - ercion, the repetitions or once off. or the nature of the seduction.


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    #98
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    No, rape carries a maximum life sentence, sexual assault does not (10 years maximum, I believe, but could be corrected).

    Aggravated sexual assault is sexual assault involving serious violence or the threat of serious violence. In common with rape offences, the maximum sentence for aggravated sexual assault is life imprisonment.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/law_on_sex_offences_in_ireland.html

    Consider yourself corrected.


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    #99
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,657 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    For starters? You'll have to do better than that. Still waiting.


    Fair enough - the perpetrator committed multiple acts of rape against the victim in that case. In this case, according to the father's account of the events that took place, the victim was "well up for the experience", that went on for "45 seconds". The judge took the father's account into consideration in sentencing, and also in sentencing tried to put responsibility for the perpetrator's actions on the victim by claiming to acknowledge that the victim was mature for their age, and the perpetrator was immature for her age. In the case Nacho linked to, the judge placed no responsibility on the victim in determining sentencing for the perpetrator.

    Bollocksology. So a woman can 'peg' a boy with a strapon, but because the strap-on she uses is not a real penis, it's not rape. And the law should not compensate for such biological discrepancies, apparantly; grand let's abolish all laws that protect the rights of women on the basis of their biology then - if a woman gets let go when she falls pregnant, it's not discrimination, it's a 'discrepancy' now.


    Yeah, that's bollocksology alright, and even worse is the idea that I should entertain it. It has nothing to do with anything I said, more like you're trying to set up an argument and argue against that instead of actually making a counter-point to what I actually said.

    You're really grasping at straws where it comes to avoiding the notion that such discrimination exists.


    Discrimination exists alright, but what you're arguing should be recognised as discrimination in the legal system, doesn't. Discrimination exists in the courtroom, not so much in the legislation.

    Actually I have repeatedly done so; quoted and responded to your arguments, point by point. Please do not be so disingenuous.


    Far from being disingenuous, I'm actually wondering when you'll get around to actually addressing my arguments rather than simply responding to them with glib missives and strawman scenarios.

    You. It's pretty clear given the responses, it's pretty much just you.


    Apparently it's not just me if your claims are that gender bias exists in the legal system. The legal system is more than just me. Far more people it seems than just me, simply don't see what you're seeing.

    Meaningless response. I'm the one presenting the elephant in the room, you're the one who's trying to tell us it's a gerbil.


    You're not presenting any elephant, you're expecting that I should ignore the forest because look at the trees. That's simply not going to happen, and I'm hardly alone in that regard if you claim that anyone who doesn't see what you see must mean they're part of the problem.


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    #100
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    You didn't specify pre pubuscence. It's up to you to be specific. Pedophilia covers a range.... it is also more accurate to refer to sex offenders or sex offences.
    What has prepubescence got to do with what you argued? You stated that because a penis can cause pregnancy then it is a more serious crime. So you brought the importance of pregnancy, and thus pubescence, into the discussion.

    You can hardly blame me because you hadn't thought through the implications of your own logic.
    There are a number of factors which will determine how severe a crime it is, the consequence of pregnancy would be one of those, but so would the levels of co - ercion, the repetitions or once off. or the nature of the seduction.
    Were that the case, could the fertility of a female rape victim not be used as a factor in sentencing? Could you let us know where this is the case?
    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Aggravated sexual assault is sexual assault involving serious violence or the threat of serious violence. In common with rape offences, the maximum sentence for aggravated sexual assault is life imprisonment.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/law_on_sex_offences_in_ireland.html

    Consider yourself corrected.
    Fair enough.

    @One eyed Jack; I just don't have the time or patience to argue with you any further. TBH, when you started to argue that gender based discrimination was instead 'discrepancy' I just gave up on you.


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    #101
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    What has prepubescence got to do with what you argued? You stated that because a penis can cause pregnancy then it is a more serious crime. So you brought the importance of pregnancy, and thus pubescence, into the discussion.

    .

    No it was because you wrongly assumed pedofilia wiped out the detail of pregnancy as an unequal consequence.

    You mention pedofilia ....I don't know about you but I still think of ten + as kids....

    So it was up to you to clarify kids under 10.

    And sex offenders is far more accurate in this debate.


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    #102
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    No it was because you wrongly assumed pedofilia wiped out the detail of pregnancy as an unequal consequence.

    You mention pedofilia ....I don't know about you but I still think of ten + as kids....
    That still has nothing to do with what you claimed. You made a claim. I pointed out how this claim does not pan out. Now, you're trying to change the goalposts.

    Ultimately, that the fertility of a victim bares no difference to the sentencing of the perpetrator shows that pregnant is not a factor in the seriousness of rape or sexual assault cases.

    The only area where threat of pregnancy still has an influence anywhere is in Ireland's medieval Romeo and Juliet laws.


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    #103
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    That still has nothing to do with what you claimed. You made a claim. I pointed out how this claim does not pan out. Now, you're trying to change the goalposts.

    Ultimately, that the fertility of a victim bares no difference to the sentencing of the perpetrator shows that pregnant is not a factor in the seriousness of rape or sexual assault cases.

    The only area where threat of pregnancy still has an influence anywhere is in Ireland's medieval Romeo and Juliet laws.

    Exactly.

    Ireland's Romeo and Juliet laws may be compensating for the fact that a girl cant have access to an abortion because that is illegal. She needs her parents permission to travel and if under 16 her parents will have to travel with ehr and also consent to it. So you imagine being 13 in that situation.


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    #104
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Ireland's Romeo and Juliet laws may be compensating for the fact that a girl cant have access to an abortion because that is illegal.
    Nah. It's because Ireland doesn't bother to update it's aging laws until decades after everyone else has. Homosexuality - more correctly sodomy - was illegal until the early nineties. Conversely marital rape was not legally recognized until around the same time.

    And the Romeo and Juliet laws make no difference to sentencing, which was central to your point, only that boys under the age of consent are still liable for charging while girls are immune, if they have sex with someone who's underage.


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    #105
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,657 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    @One eyed Jack; I just don't have the time or patience to argue with you any further. TBH, when you started to argue that gender based discrimination was instead 'discrepancy' I just gave up on you.


    You could have just done that then, instead of wasting both your time and my time. I understand where you're coming from alright, but when you choose to ignore the fact that it was a male parent and a male judge who ignored the impact upon a male victim of sexual assault, it was always going to be very hard to make the point that women should be held responsible for any perceived discrimination against men in the judicial system.

    Men have to take responsibility for their own attitudes towards other men, and that's not the responsibility of women either, because it's not women that perpetuate that attitude among men, it's men themselves that perpetuate that attitude among men.


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    #106
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Nah. It's because Ireland doesn't bother to update it's aging laws until decades after everyone else has. Homosexuality - more correctly sodomy - was illegal until the early nineties. Conversely marital rape was not legally recognized until around the same time.

    And the Romeo and Juliet laws make no difference to sentencing, which was central to your point, only that boys under the age of consent are still liable for charging while girls are immune, if they have sex with someone who's underage.

    You are bringing in Romeo and Juliet laws....I am only guessing its because they havent fixed their abortion laws.... so if a minor gets pregnant she cant travel, needs parental consent...it's a mess....

    My point was that there is no legal consequence whatseover for getting a minor pregnant...there is for the sex act but not for the pregnancy.

    You were arguing that sex offence laws are discrimnatory against men, and no this is not the case when they are the same as rape laws.

    And by the way its men who made these laws, and it was a father who mitigated the sentencing and it was a male judge who executed them.


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    #107
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You could have just done that then, instead of wasting both your time and my time.
    And still he wants the last word.
    Men have to take responsibility for their own attitudes towards other men, and that's not the responsibility of women either, because it's not women that perpetuate that attitude among men, it's men themselves that perpetuate that attitude among men.
    There go those goalposts...

    Go on, have the last word now.


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    #108
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    My point was that there is no legal consequence whatseover for getting a minor pregnant...there is for the sex act but not for the pregnancy.
    Maintenance. Civil case for medial fees and damages.
    And by the way its men who made these laws, and it was a father who mitigated the sentencing and it was a male judge who executed them.
    Dead men. So what?


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    #109
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Maintenance. Civil case for medial fees and damages.

    Dead men. So what?

    His dad was not dead, nor was the judge.

    Maintenace... you're funny. Medical fees and damages ah yeah right. How is someone who is in jail for statatory rape going to get the money for medical fees and damages... or if something goes wrong in child birth...or having to drop out of school...and having your future at 14 completely demolished.

    Now you are in legal/science fiction territory.


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    #110
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,657 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    And still he wants the last word.

    There go those goalposts...

    Go on, have the last word now.


    Nothing in any of the above actually presents a counter-point to anything I said, in spite of you complaining that I still had to have "the last word", yet the very fact that you felt the need to reply to my post, without even addressing the points I made, suggests otherwise.


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    #111
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Maintenace... you're funny. Medical fees and damages ah yeah right. How is someone who is in jail for statatory rape going to get the money for medical fees and damages... or if something goes wrong in child birth...or having to drop out of school...and having your future at 14 completely demolished.
    Ask OEJ - it's probably just a 'discrepancy'.


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    #112
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    jungleman wrote: »
    Yeah you're basically saying that men feel pressurised into going around raping people. We're all a big bunch of rapists, trying to be cool.

    "All the guys are doing it, c'mon man, let's go for a rape. You wanna be cool, don't you?" is pretty much how I translated your post.

    Nonsense.

    Yeah pretty much....

    "http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/02/12/lad-culture-harmful-male-students-sexual-predators_n_4774250.html

    Young males are being peer pressured into becoming sexual predators at university by a lad culture which is "rife" in sports teams, according to researchers."


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    #113
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,657 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Ask OEJ - it's probably just a 'discrepancy'.


    Or, you could just address their points, refute them, present a counter-argument, many other ways to address their points, without trying to drag me into your argument and then claim I was trying to get in 'the last word' like we're having a domestic.


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    #114
    jungleman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Yeah pretty much....

    "http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/02/12/lad-culture-harmful-male-students-sexual-predators_n_4774250.html

    Young males are being peer pressured into becoming sexual predators at university by a lad culture which is "rife" in sports teams, according to researchers."

    Okay, first of all:
    Lad Culture Is Harmful For Men Too: Males Peer Pressured Into Becoming Sexual Predators

    I nearly didn't bother reading it after seeing this outrageous headline. It's stupid. It's an insight into how bad the article is, however.
    according to researchers
    This opening line gives the impression that there was some actual research done in relation to this. Unfortunately, the writer thinks that by simply mentioning the word "researchers", that it lends credibility to the article. It doesn't.
    Lad culture is rife in sports teams initiations. I've heard reports of young males at one university being forced to take roofies [a date rape drug] and run naked through areas of the city notorious for anal rape
    This is a quote given by one of these "researchers". Purely anecdotal. It's absolute nonsense. She might as well be saying "I heard a story of a unicorn who farts star dust". It's just nonsense.
    But men are tiring of the stigmatisation which comes which being linked to lad culture. In a blog post for HuffPost UK, Gloucestershire University student William Davie said sites such as LadBible and UniLad made him want to "tear my own eyes out".
    Oh we are tiring of it, are we? Well according to HuffPost UK, apparently we ALL are. How did they come to this mass generalisation? Oh yeah, from a fúcking blog post from ONE student.

    Jesus give me strength, like.
    "I think it definitely harms male students," Christie says. "Many males I knew at university didn't actually agree with the actions, opinions and words spoken by a lot of the other guys but peer pressure is something that shouldn't be underestimated.
    Yet more anecdotal "evidence". Yawn.

    Seriously. This article does not support whatever you point you have. It's gutter journalism at best.


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    #115
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    jungleman wrote: »
    Okay, first of all:



    I nearly didn't bother reading it after seeing this outrageous headline. It's stupid. It's an insight into how bad the article is, however.


    This opening line gives the impression that there was some actual research done in relation to this. Unfortunately, the writer thinks that by simply mentioning the word "researchers", that it lends credibility to the article. It doesn't.


    This is a quote given by one of these "researchers". Purely anecdotal. It's absolute nonsense. She might as well be saying "I heard a story of a unicorn who farts star dust". It's just nonsense.


    Oh we are tiring of it, are we? Well according to HuffPost UK, apparently we ALL are. How did they come to this mass generalisation? Oh yeah, from a fúcking blog post from ONE student.

    Jesus give me strength, like.


    Yet more anecdotal "evidence". Yawn.

    Seriously. This article does not support whatever you point you have. It's gutter journalism at best.

    Well then why dont you talk to some more experts like William Pollack over at Harvard or the Mens Project.


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    #116
    jungleman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Well then why dont you talk to some more experts like William Pollack over at Harvard or the Mens Project.

    I'm not arsed.

    It's kind of up to you to provide material like that to support your points, not me.


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    #117
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    jungleman wrote: »
    I'm not arsed.

    It's kind of up to you to provide material like that to support your points, not me.

    Neh...not interested in educating you.


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    #118
    tritium
    Registered Users Posts: 7,420 ✭✭✭tritium


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Yeah pretty much....

    "http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/02/12/lad-culture-harmful-male-students-sexual-predators_n_4774250.html

    Young males are being peer pressured into becoming sexual predators at university by a lad culture which is "rife" in sports teams, according to researchers."

    I'd be very slow to just accept much of what is pased off as research in the gender studies sphere. A lot of it is basically peer reviewed in a circle jerk where concepts like scientific method are left on the shelf. The Mary Kroos 1in 4 rape 'study' (I use the term loosely) is probably the earliest well known example, but a quick search of similar threads in AH will give a range of these from a large number of colleges and even government agencies on occasion

    I note another poster has already pointed out some of the obvious weaknesses in this particular one :)


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    #119
    NachoBusiness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭NachoBusiness


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The overall circumstances of that case were completely different. The intrinsic difference wasn't simply the gender of the perpetrator at all.

    Of course the overall circumstances were different. Nobody said or suggested they were the same. Do you really expect someone to find a case of a male babysitter who has sex with an 11 year old, is a little slow and who used to shag the child's mother? Ffs! I wouldn't mind, but you specifically said you were not look for the exact same circumstances:
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    If you can find me a case with similar circumstances (I'm even being generous in asking for similar and not the exact same circumstances) with only the genders reversed as the intrinsic difference between the two, then I'll accept your point.

    You even admitted yourself that there were similarities:
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    ..there are some similarities between the two cases...

    No doubt you'll argue now that 'similarities' does not mean 'similar circumstances'..

    You say the boy wasn't even an adult. Yes, that's right, he wasn't but that's a plus for my argument, not yours for heaven sake, as you would expect a court to be more understanding of a child who rapes, than an adult that does, obviously, but the court wasn't, they jailed him for four years and even if there was an EXACT case where the sexes were the intrinsic difference, you would still most likely not take the point and respond with something along the lines of 'Ah well, sure there will always be crazy judges') or some other such nonsense.

    Lets try this again shall we:

    How about a young homeless guy, who had a stoke when he was young and now has the mental age of a teenager as a result of it and finds himself living rough in a tent. We don't even have to go as far as finding a case where the child was only 11, as his crime was having consensual sex with a 15 year old (which of course is just a few months shy of the age of consent in the UK). So: a guy living a "lonely existence" has consensual sex, with a girl that was mere months from the legal age of consent, has severe immaturity issues resulting from a stroke, which the Judge is more than happy to take into consideration. Now, how understanding do you think the courts were with him? Wel, not very, he was jailed for two years and four months.


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    #120
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    jungleman wrote: »
    Yeah you're basically saying that men feel pressurised into going around raping people. We're all a big bunch of rapists, trying to be cool.

    "All the guys are doing it, c'mon man, let's go for a rape. You wanna be cool, don't you?" is pretty much how I translated your post.

    Nonsense.

    It really does get obvious what prejudices people are bringing with them into conversations when they manage to so spectacularly misread posts.


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    #121
    jungleman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    Rosemary Plain Tripod wrote: »
    It really does get obvious what prejudices people are bringing with them into conversations when they manage to so spectacularly misread posts.

    Are you saying that I misread Zeffabelli's post?


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