Any planned protest marches?

feicim · 19-11-2010 6:26pm

Kevo wrote: »

Or you could just wait for the next election. It may still be a long way away but even suggesting removing them through force is complete idiocy.

Complete idiocy is the way we do things here in Ireland. Its the way of our people.

dreenman · 19-11-2010 6:27pm

As I posted in another thread - there is a great romance in the notion that the Irish are rebels but when you look at our history its just another myth.

Independance was fought for by a very small minority - a volatile coalition of Republicans (both catholic and protestants), Trade unionists, communists, free thinkers. We then spent as long fighting among ourselves after the Free State was formed.

The Catholic Church very effectively took over the occupation of the country without resistence and by grabbing education were able dictate the agenda for the next 70 years. They also quickly isolated and removed all the progressive elements that helped win independance.

Lets be honest - as a people we've always allowed ourselves to be dictated to by those in power.

There is no chance of any sizable anti-goverment protest taking to the streets of Dublin this week, this year or this century. We know our place!

Slozer · 19-11-2010 6:32pm

Kevo wrote: »

Or you could just wait for the next election. It may still be a long way away but even suggesting removing them through force is complete idiocy.

"And what country can preserve its liberties, if the rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms"

Thomas Jefferson

Slozer · 19-11-2010 6:36pm

feicim wrote: »

Complete idiocy is the way we do things here in Ireland. Its the way of our people.

Its the way of our Government at the moment

Faustino · 19-11-2010 9:51pm

ixtlan wrote: »

Hi Faustino,

while respecting your passion, which I say with some condescension, and some seriousness I have to criticise the above.

If people protest to remove the current government then I understand that. I agree with the desire, though like many others I would worry about the potential for violence. Still, it's a goal. Force an election and punish those politicians who have failed us. I'll leave aside for now the discussion on how much the public went along with the disastrous policies.

However to protest for the sake of protest, against all politicians, saying that the entire system is irrelevant is almost nihilistic.

People like you should be forming political parties that conform to how you want things to work. If you are convincing enough then you may succeed in changing the system. Do not tell me, as most people do, that the system cannot be changed. Democracy may have it's flaws but it's the least worst system of government. I do not want anyone, no matter whether they agree with my views, to be running things without public vote. No dictatorships for me. And preferably no anarchy either.

Ix.

I'm afraid you have things completely wrong, I have never said that a protest should be against the government.. for now that is totally pointless and whenever an election is called people will voice their opinion then.

What is happening now with the IMF coming in, that is what we should be protesting against.. we are fully funded and liquid for another year almost.. why should we take a massive bailout now just because the Germans want us to?

The quick turn of events was engineered in a meeting two weeks ago and the screw has been turning on Ireland ever since.. and now we are to ask for the help of the same people who caused this situation?

A protest may not achieve much but at least it would show that the Irish actually give two sh*t's about their own country and their own futures.

I have been totally disgusted with the indifference shown regarding such a massive issue.

The IMF aren't doing this out of the good of their hearts.. this is big business.. and unfortunately we're in their sights as the next huge opportunity for profit.

This isn't about our government, it's about the bigger picture.

HellFireClub · 19-11-2010 9:56pm

Faustino wrote: »

I'm afraid you have things completely wrong, I have never said that a protest should be against the government.. for now that is totally pointless and whenever an election is called people will voice their opinion then.

What is happening now with the IMF coming in, that is what we should be protesting against.. we are fully funded and liquid for another year almost.. why should we take a massive bailout now just because the Germans want us to?

The quick turn of events was engineered in a meeting two weeks ago and the screw has been turning on Ireland ever since.. and now we are to ask for the help of the same people who caused this situation?

A protest may not achieve much but at least it would show that the Irish actually give two sh*t's about their own country and their own futures.

I have been totally disgusted with the indifference shown regarding such a massive issue.

The IMF aren't doing this out of the good of their hearts.. this is big business.. and unfortunately we're in their sights as the next huge opportunity for profit.

This isn't about our government, it's about the bigger picture.

You'd no doubt be the first to complain if we ran out of cash next June, that we hadn't foreseen the event and borrowed more sooner...

Faustino · 19-11-2010 10:18pm

HellFireClub wrote: »

You'd no doubt be the first to complain if we ran out of cash next June, that we hadn't foreseen the event and borrowed more sooner...

So why can't we just get on with things until March or April.. the markets are volatile.. it's not unimaginable that things could have been a little better by then.

If things really are that bad by April, then ask for a bailout.
But if there's a slim chance that we can get through it ourselves, i'll take that chance any day over a shady organization like the IMF coming in.

namloc1980 · 19-11-2010 10:50pm

Faustino wrote: »

So why can't we just get on with things until March or April.. the markets are volatile.. it's not unimaginable that things could have been a little better by then.

If things really are that bad by April, then ask for a bailout.
But if there's a slim chance that we can get through it ourselves, i'll take that chance any day over a shady organization like the IMF coming in.

Because the ECB have said they are no longer willing to prop up the Irish Banks and the Banks are simply unable to raise funds themselves in the market. Ireland has guaranteed and owns large portions of those Banks, so from the markets' point of view the Banks' debt and the Sovereign debt are one and the same. There are tens of billions of Euro of bank debt due to mature over the coming months and if those Banks can't raise funds from the ECB or the markets then it is Ireland who must pay up. Clearly the State would be unable to raise that amount of money itself so that is why we need help NOW, we can't wait and see.

yosemite_sam · 19-11-2010 10:54pm

What are you going to protest about, the country is skint get over it

brian ireland · 19-11-2010 11:01pm

20Cent wrote: »

The ICTU are marching next weekend the 27th. Should be a big one.

Fcuk+ing Unions. They are only interested in members paying dues thats it. They don't do anything for anybody. Fecking wasters....

Faustino · 19-11-2010 11:06pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Because the ECB have said they are no longer willing to prop up the Irish Banks and the Banks are simply unable to raise funds themselves in the market. Ireland has guaranteed and owns large portions of those Banks, so from the markets' point of view the Banks' debt and the Sovereign debt are one and the same. There are tens of billions of Euro of bank debt due to mature over the coming months and if those Banks can't raise funds from the ECB or the markets then it is Ireland who must pay up. Clearly the State would be unable to raise that amount of money itself so that is why we need help NOW, we can't wait and see.

Have they said this? Look, I take your point that the situation is out of control.. but 3 weeks ago things seemed fine. Why the sudden drastic turn of events? The whole thing stinks

The government have enough cash to keep the show running until middle to end of next year, NAMA whether we agree with it or not are only just getting started.. we should really be waiting to see what happens.

colly10 · 19-11-2010 11:09pm

Whats the point in a protest. Is it to show people were not happy, think everyones fairly aware of the situation and there's little that can be done about it.
If people get on with it and accept the cuts then theres a chance we can turn this round in a few years, if everyone starts going on strike then the place will fall to pieces.

Why do I not strike? It's not that I don't care or I like to get ****ed by the government as some like to put it. It's that I don't want to make things any worse.

Things are the way they are, no use moaning about how we got here, just look at where we are and think about how best to go about improving things - in my mind that's shut up moaning and accept things are going to be tough for a few years

colly10 · 19-11-2010 11:13pm

Faustino wrote: »

the situation is out of control.. but 3 weeks ago things seemed fine.

I assume you must have just returned home to Ireland, things have changed quite a bit in the 3 years you were away

colly10 · 19-11-2010 11:15pm

Faustino wrote: »

... the French take to the streets at any sign of a cut.

Not exactly what we need right now, maybe i'm wrong but it didn't seem to work too well for the Greeks

Faustino · 19-11-2010 11:21pm

colly10 wrote: »

I assume you must have just returned home to Ireland, things have changed quite a bit in the 3 years you were away

Don't take me literally.. i mean 3 weeks ago this was not headline news.. 2 weeks ago there's a big Eurozone meeting.. the Germans throw doubt into the market by their comments.. then for the last 2 weeks almost the whole of Europe have turned on us.. and mark my words, this bailout will come with conditions and we can kiss out corporation tax levels goodbye.

You would question the motives of the other nations.

colly10 · 19-11-2010 11:31pm

Faustino wrote: »

Don't take me literally.. i mean 3 weeks ago this was not headline news.. 2 weeks ago there's a big Eurozone meeting.. the Germans throw doubt into the market by their comments.. then for the last 2 weeks almost the whole of Europe have turned on us.. and mark my words, this bailout will come with conditions and we can kiss out corporation tax levels goodbye.

You would question the motives of the other nations.

Yep I would say the bailout will come with conditions, corporation tax will not be touched though. The EU/IMF would not be able to justify it as we need to keep it low in order to recover. Also FF would pretty much agree to anything but that, most people accept that we need cuts, probably job losses, lower dole, lower minimum wage, ps reform but noone would accept that we should increase corporation tax.
It could be never spun in such a way that it would be positive for our country, none of our politicians believe it (well except maybe Sinn Fein) and the EU couldn't justify it either.

Put it this way, if corporation tax was increased then forget what I said earlier about not striking, i'd be looking at getting the first flight out too

namloc1980 · 19-11-2010 11:34pm

Faustino wrote: »

Have they said this? Look, I take your point that the situation is out of control.. but 3 weeks ago things seemed fine. Why the sudden drastic turn of events? The whole thing stinks

The government have enough cash to keep the show running until middle to end of next year, NAMA whether we agree with it or not are only just getting started.. we should really be waiting to see what happens.

Yes the ECB want to stop funding Irish Banks link. The Banks have been relying primarily on the ECB for at least 6 months at this stage for their funding as the markets won't lend to them. It is not the ECB's role to prop up Banks so they want out. However Fianna Failure have been feeding us BS for months and telling us everything was grand, they must have known months ago this was coming down the tracks.

Faustino · 19-11-2010 11:37pm

colly10 wrote: »

Yep I would say the bailout will come with conditions, corporation tax will not be touched though. The EU/IMF would not be able to justify it as we need to keep it low in order to recover. Also FF would pretty much agree to anything but that, most people accept that we need cuts, probably job losses, lower dole, lower minimum wage, ps reform but noone would accept that we should increase corporation tax.
It could be never spun in such a way that it would be positive for our country, none of our politicians believe it (well except maybe Sinn Fein) and the EU couldn't justify it either.

Put it this way, if corporation tax was increased then forget what I said earlier about not striking, i'd be looking at getting the first flight out too

Well to quickly browse through the google news section regarding the bailout, our corporation tax levels are mentioned many times.. it's definitely on the agenda.

In order to keep a hold of our own countries I would suggest a drastic cut in the dole.. i read somewhere that a €30 a week cut across the board would raise 3bn.. then why not cut it by €50.. until we get things back on track. It would raise a huge amount of money.

Scofflaw · 19-11-2010 11:47pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Yes the ECB want to stop funding Irish Banks link. The Banks have been relying primarily on the ECB for at least 6 months at this stage for their funding as the markets won't lend to them. It is not the ECB's role to prop up Banks so they want out. However Fianna Failure have been feeding us BS for months and telling us everything was grand, they must have known months ago this was coming down the tracks.

I'm not sure that's quite the case - Merkel's comments were because she's up against it politically in her own country, and they sparked off a panic. The Germans were, by all accounts, asked not to start discussing the post-2013 arrangements right now, but for domestic political reasons Merkel couldn't do so. Meanwhile, the ECB is seeing a probable rise in inflation, and that's their actual mandate, not propping up the Irish banks, so they're keen to close them out. Comments from people like Patrick Holohan fed into the panic, and then the Portugese and Spaniards got jittery, because they have to go to the bond markets in January/February. There's also quite a lot of prequel material to the panic, with Goldman Sachs saying they'd rather see the Irish get a bailout, the Irish banks releasing figures that show they've been bleeding capital, and so on, so the markets were already pretty unhappy. There's an element of all the people currently propping us up - and rather weary of it - seeing this as an opportunity to give us a big loan and tell us to sort ourselves out, rather than spending so much time with the problem.

Still, the fact that the situation was that volatile shows that it was always likely - this isn't a "perfect storm", instead it's a perfectly ordinary storm in extraordinary circumstances. It has essentially been a miracle that Ireland hasn't already been priced out of the bond markets - not something the government could say, naturally, without having exactly that happen. They were gambling that things would calm down again before we needed to go back to the markets, but the egg has fallen off the spoon.

cordially,
Scofflaw

irishh_bob · 20-11-2010 12:04am

Faustino wrote: »

Don't take me literally.. i mean 3 weeks ago this was not headline news.. 2 weeks ago there's a big Eurozone meeting.. the Germans throw doubt into the market by their comments.. then for the last 2 weeks almost the whole of Europe have turned on us.. and mark my words, this bailout will come with conditions and we can kiss out corporation tax levels goodbye.

You would question the motives of the other nations.

while i disagree with your planned protest , i agree with you about germany and the wreckless ( and convenient ) lending by thier banks , the tone certainly changed in the past two weeks , the whole thing shifted several gears and suddenly ireland was the biggest global story , it doesnt really make sense , the ( non bank ) economy is no worse now than it was six months ago , its better in fact , i could be wrong but i believe the events of the last week were probabley building for a while ( behind the scenes ) , beit our own citizens or foreign account holders , thier has obviously been a run on the banks for a while now , public figures made statements in the past fortnight and the rate of withdrawls greatly instensified and all of a sudden , it was the man in the streets biggest concern , the british and especially the germans , fearing a domino effect caused by insolvent irish banks , hit the panic button and decided that ireland would be made to suffer in order to protect the prescious eurozone project , sending in the IMF is the aliby , we are being potrayed as being in need of charity and while our debt issue was a serious one , within the space of a week , we were being compared to argentina circa 2001 or some 3rd world country which the IMF assett strips every other week , it troubles me greatly that irish people,s fear and subsequent mass withdrawl of savings may have greatly accelerated the drastic measures we now see being taken , i myself took out some savings and i feel bad about it now , it was only in the past two days that i realised the extent to which british and german banks were dependant on the survival of the irish banking system , its now blatantly obvious that savings were never in the slighest bit of trouble , not because our goverment were capable of preventing such an outcome or because the british are such a good neighbour but because were we to head over the cliff , we were taking the most powerfull european countries with us , they could not afford to let us fail ,( kelvin mc kenzie said those exact words on queston time uk the other night ), we are now pawns in a continential game of chess and the nominated lambs to the slaughter

having said all that stuff about europe , i belive had this wretched goverment stepped down two years ago or at least two months ago , the people could have gave a new mandate to the next goverment and would have been willing to move on , such was the distrust for this goverment and such was thier cynicism , the public adopted the same cynicism and an every man for himself policy was adopted , to hell with the country , im getting my savings , cowens thick stuborness and lennehans slyness are the main reasons we find ourselves in a such a mess , its truly mind boggling how things could have gotten to this stage , i find it hard to take it all in , ive never been so uncertain in my own country and although im not a religous man , i pray some leadership will appear and inspire us to rebuld our country , spirit and charechter

its going to be a long road back

colly10 · 20-11-2010 12:08am

Faustino wrote: »

Well to quickly browse through the google news section regarding the bailout, our corporation tax levels are mentioned many times.. it's definitely on the agenda.

Yes the EU resent it, all parties want it to stay though and it's the main condition we have, it would be beyond disaster for this country for us to change it, it's not going to happen

Faustino · 20-11-2010 12:10am

irishh_bob wrote: »

while i disagree with your planned protest , i agree with you about germany and the wreckless ( and convenient ) lending by thier banks , the tone certainly changed in the past two weeks , the whole thing shifted several gears and suddenly ireland was the biggest global story , it doesnt really make sense , the ( non bank ) economy is no worse now than it was six months ago , its better in fact , i could be wrong but i believe the events of the last week were probabley building for a while ( behind the scenes ) , beit our own citizens or foreign account holders , thier has obviously been a run on the banks for a while now , public figures made statements in the past fortnight and the rate of withdrawls greatly instensified and all of a sudden , it was the man in the streets biggest concern , the british and especially the germans , fearing a domino effect caused by insolvent irish banks , hit the panic button and decided that ireland would be made to suffer in order to protect the prescious eurozone project , sending in the IMF is the aliby , we are being potrayed as being in need of charity and while our debt issue was a serious one , within the space of a week , we were being compared to argentina circa 2001 or some 3rd world country which the IMF assett strips every other week , it troubles me greatly that irish people,s fear and subsequent mass withdrawl of savings may have greatly accelerated the drastic measures we now see being taken , i myself took out some savings and i feel bad about it now , it was only in the past two days that i realised the extent to which british and german banks were dependant on the survival of the irish banking system , its now blatantly obvious that savings were never in the slighest bit of trouble , not because our goverment were capable of preventing such an outcome or because the british are such a good neighbour but because were we to head over the cliff , we were taking the most powerfull european countries with us , they could not afford to let us fail ,( kelvin mc kenzie said those exact words on queston time uk the other night ), we are now pawns in a continential game of chess and the nominated lambs to the slaughter

having said all that stuff about europe , i belive had this wretched goverment stepped down two years ago or at least two months ago , the people could have gave a new mandate to the next goverment and would have been willing to move on , such was the distrust for this goverment and such was thier cynicism , the public adopted the same cynicism and an every man for himself policy was adopted , to hell with the country , im getting my savings , cowens thick stuborness and lennehans slyness are the main reasons we find ourselves in a such a mess , its truly mind boggling how things could have gotten to this stage , i find it hard to take it all in , ive never been so uncertain in my own country and although im not a religous man , i pray some leadership will appear and inspire us to rebuld our country , spirit and charechter

its going to be a long road back

Great post.. nail on head about being caught in a game of chess.

Cheap Thrills! · 20-11-2010 12:11am

Haven't read the whole thread. Every time there's a national scandal and AH invaders (like me I only ever come to the politics forum when something big goes on) come into here, the politics forum, people put forward all kinds of intelligently argued reasons why marching is a bad idea.

Normally it's we dont want to spook the markets or invoke a bank run, but now all that has already happened. At this stage all I can't see what we have to lose.

Ok, the usual crew of 'rent-a-mob' gobsh!tes will probably turn up. But, so what, let the Guards deal with them. There are a huge amount of normal decent people who would love to march out and show our unequivical loss of confidence in this Government. Yes, yes we know there is no-one better etc etc yada, yada. We don't care.

We want our voice. We want our election. We want AN END TO THE FF MELODRAMA.

We need relief. We want to hit the bottom and get on with the work of getting back up.

Can we please just as a nation for once in an organised and peaceful fashion march out IF this time next week (after the Donegal by-Elections) the Goverment has not gone to the country.

We have been voiceless long enough. Saturday 27th I will be marching out if the two Brians OR cock-up Coughlan are still in charge. :cool:

irishh_bob · 20-11-2010 12:18am

Faustino wrote: »

Great post.. nail on head about being caught in a game of chess.

its long and quite muddled but im sincere when i say im dumbfounded at how the game has shifted , one minute we were another western country with a major imbalance between income and expendeture , next minute were a project for the IMF which is facing a landscape shift both politically and economically

colly10 · 20-11-2010 12:19am

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

Haven't read the whole thread. Every time there's a national scandal and AH invaders (like me I only ever come to the politics forum when something big goes on) come into here, the politics forum, people put forward all kinds of intelligently argued reasons why marching is a bad idea.

Normally it's we dont want to spook the markets or invoke a bank run, but now all that has already happened. At this stage all I can't see what we have to lose.

Ok, the usual crew of 'rent-a-mob' gobsh!tes will probably turn up. But, so what, let the Guards deal with them. There are a huge amount of normal decent people who would love to march out and show our unequivical loss of confidence in this Government. Yes, yes we know there is no-one better etc etc yada, yada. We don't care.

We want our voice. We want our election. We want AN END TO THE FF MELODRAMA.

We need relief. We want to hit the bottom and get on with the work of getting back up.

Can we please just as a nation for once in an organised and peaceful fashion march out IF this time next week (after the Donegal by-Elections) the Goverment has not gone to the country.

We have been voiceless long enough. Saturday 27th I will be marching out if the two Brians OR cock-up Coughlan are still in charge. :cool:

Basically we have potentially something to loose (markets, trouble) and nothing to gain (were not going to get an election and even if we did I don't think Enda Kenny's going to come in and turn things round in the morning)

Cheap Thrills! · 20-11-2010 12:30am

colly10 wrote: »

Basically we have potentially something to loose (markets, trouble) and nothing to gain (were not going to get an election and even if we did I don't think Enda Kenny's going to come in and turn things round in the morning)

No. Enough scaremongering. I don't care who the new (temporarily elected) puppet is. Professionals (with no interest in us as a people) are now in charge. And things had got so bad that I am actually relieved. I know there is pain coming and I've no love for Enda or Gormley but I cannot stomach any more FF.

Either they go to the country or I'm marching. Bring it.

O'Coonassa · 20-11-2010 5:24am

People on YouTube and various other places are claiming that there is a global day of protest on Budget Day to show the money men and the banksters who is actually in charge of this whole system.

Apparently the plan is simply to cause a massive run on the banks. There is a facebook group here http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=137793666269183

Even Eric Cantona, of all people, is involved but the economic analyst Max Kaiser and the ranting Alex Jones are involved in it also as are some French protest groups.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uop5R7E314

Do people think this is a good idea? Can we really make the banksters and our leaders sit up and take notice?

snow ghost · 20-11-2010 5:31am

Marxism couldn't defeat capitalism, so I doubt a facebook campaign will.

It has already imploded all by itself, so tbh this would be a bit like locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.

O'Coonassa · 20-11-2010 5:50am

Yes maybe, I don't know, maybe the bailouts are locking the proverbial door too late? There is also this I came across which is connected to this protest

http://www.examiner.com/finance-examiner-in-national/the-buy-one-ounce-of-physical-silver-drive

Since it is a crime to call for a bank run, other means must be devised as a protest when our legislators will not listen to their citizens, as was the case when TARP was initiated. Economist Max Keiser has thought up just such a protest, and the potential to end the fraud of banks such as JP Morgan in manipulating the markets.
It is the buy one ounce of silver drive. If every person in America bought just one ounce of physical silver (current spot price is at $26.06), it would put a massive squeeze on the banks, and force them to cover and end the manipulation.
One ounce x 310 million people. Since the Comex has already admitted that the banks have sold or shorted over 100 times in paper the amount of physical silver there is above ground, removing all available physical silver from the markets will exacerbate the pressure and potentially bring the silver futures market manipulation to a screeching halt.

I really don't have a clue what bringing the silver futures market manipulation to a screeching halt might do but it sounds interesting.

Mister men · 20-11-2010 9:39am

I'd like to partake but all my money has already been moved out of the banks.