"Thug who attacked dying Pole was on bail" (75 previous convictions)

Nijmegen · 26-05-2010 12:12pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Hotels? I stayed in a hotel once and unlike Mountjoy I wasn't put into a vermin-invested, 2-person room with a floor-mattress for a bed and 4 heroin addicts as room mates with one bucket between us to sh*t and p*ss in.

Prisons in Ireland are some of the most horrible in Europe, way worse in fact although perhaps some of the ones in Spain would give them a run for their money. Usually the people banging on about "holiday camps" have never been to a prison, nor do they know anyone who has been in one.

If they have a rat or mouse problem, I'd suggest releasing snakes into the building.

loldog · 26-05-2010 1:12pm

caseyann wrote: »

But have to take into account he is only a young lad,and he indeed i would say was not intending to murder anyone.

You might think differently if you had to meet him in your neighbourhood every day.

.

Laminations · 26-05-2010 1:19pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Hotels? I stayed in a hotel once and unlike Mountjoy I wasn't put into a vermin-invested, 2-person room with a floor-mattress for a bed and 4 heroin addicts as room mates with one bucket between us to sh*t and p*ss in.

Prisons in Ireland are some of the most horrible in Europe, way worse in fact although perhaps some of the ones in Spain would give them a run for their money. Usually the people banging on about "holiday camps" have never been to a prison, nor do they know anyone who has been in one.

I wouldn't knowingly check into a rat infested hell hole of a hotel. The same way I don't commit crime, knowing the consequences (in addition to my upbringing). If you end up in prison it is your own fault, or are you suggesting they are not responsible for their behaviour with no knowledge of right and wrong? Be very careful because if that's what you are suggesting that makes them even more of a danger to society. We have to give prisoners some amount of dignity in prison, this does not so much relate to conditions but to the opportunities available to them behind bars to rehabilitate themselves

AlekSmart · 26-05-2010 1:47pm

You might think differently if you had to meet him in your neighbourhood every day.

Loldog does raise a pertinent issue here.

It would appear that this little grouping were well known in the area and could be relied upon to be at the forefront of many other incidents.

On the few occassions that I visited the Chipper there was always a presence of surly young acting the twat outside.

It would be a very rare to be able to go into the shop without a snide comment or some other attempt to provoke a reaction.

So yes,Loldog might just have a point here.

FTA69 · 26-05-2010 2:02pm

Laminations wrote: »

I wouldn't knowingly check into a rat infested hell hole of a hotel. The same way I don't commit crime, knowing the consequences (in addition to my upbringing). If you end up in prison it is your own fault, or are you suggesting they are not responsible for their behaviour with no knowledge of right and wrong? Be very careful because if that's what you are suggesting that makes them even more of a danger to society. We have to give prisoners some amount of dignity in prison, this does not so much relate to conditions but to the opportunities available to them behind bars to rehabilitate themselves

I never said that people who end up in jail don't deserve to be there, most of the time they do. (Although why they ended up like that is a different question which also needs to be addressed.) How does massive overcrowding and a lack of facilities with sh*t conditions going to lead to rehabilitation?

Ardent · 26-05-2010 2:26pm

walshb wrote: »

More disturbing is that the filthy scum girls got away scott free.

BTW, it's the ****ing judges that need locking up, handing down
these disgusting lenient sentences.

You said it. Them and the DPP - the incompetents should be replaced.

Laminations · 26-05-2010 2:28pm

FTA69 wrote: »

I never said that people who end up in jail don't deserve to be there, most of the time they do. (Although why they ended up like that is a different question which also needs to be addressed.) How does massive overcrowding and a lack of facilities with sh*t conditions going to lead to rehabilitation?

It doesn't, the overcrowding could be dealt with without the need for state of the art facilities. Simple but secure locations would do, whether that's a tent village (ala maricopa county) or a sparse building. Overcrowding would not be such an issue if people did not demand the highest standards of buildings. What conditions are you referring to? If it's dirt and grime, the inmates should be on cleaning rotas, if it's slopping out (something I don't agree with) they can still do this more hygenically then now, as prisoners currently spill their buckets on landings etc in protest- ironically protesting the mess they got themselves into. They should be mainly responsible for the prisons upkeep and tidyness, a responsibility that would aid rehabilitation. They should also have courses with which to better themselves. So it's simple, if an inmate does not engage with their responsibilities in prison (e.g. Cleaning, cooking, learning and education) then they are in no way demonstrating that they are fit for release.you give them the opportunity to better themselves but they need to take an active role.

Edit: quite frankly the fact that 2put of 3 prisoners have/had mobile phones and the easy access to drugs in prison would be conditions I'd be more worried about

FTA69 · 26-05-2010 2:36pm

What conditions are you referring to?

Overcrowding is the single biggest detrimental condition, and clearly one which is preventing any sort of rehabilitative atmosphere. All it does is breed more drug abuse and more violence.

if it's slopping out (something I don't agree with) they can still do this more hygenically then now, as prisoners currently spill their buckets on landings etc in protest- ironically protesting the mess they got themselves into.

Putting people into a cramped cell with a bucket of sh*t is inhumane and isn't tolerated in most other European countries. Mountjoy should be knocked and new, modern prisons with adequate facilities should be constructed i.e along the lines of Dóchas.

They should also have courses with which to better themselves.

It's a bit difficult to have educational and training facilities when there is so little space people sleep in the showers.

Nijmegen · 26-05-2010 3:04pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Overcrowding is the single biggest detrimental condition, and clearly one which is preventing any sort of rehabilitative atmosphere. All it does is breed more drug abuse and more violence.

Putting people into a cramped cell with a bucket of sh*t is inhumane and isn't tolerated in most other European countries. Mountjoy should be knocked and new, modern prisons with adequate facilities should be constructed i.e along the lines of Dóchas.

It's a bit difficult to have educational and training facilities when there is so little space people sleep in the showers.

Rather than spending millions we don't have to house our prisoners, why not go for the big field, two fences, guard towers and tents approach?

It would solve overcrowding.

Laminations · 26-05-2010 3:13pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

Rather than spending millions we don't have to house our prisoners, why not go for the big field, two fences, guard towers and tents approach?

It would solve overcrowding.

Exactly, the overcrowding issue (which I agree with FTA69 is the single biggest detrimental condition) could be dealt with cheaply, but you'll find that those opposed to overcrowding will likely be opposed to sleeping/living quarters that do not have all the mod/cons.

A facilities building could have recreational activities (gym, tv room, games console, etc) for those on consistent good behaviour (rather than early release) and an educational/skills building could help with rehabilitation and should be where prisoners spend most of their day (9-5) rather than in their cells 23 hours a day. These two buildings would have to have investment but where the prisoners sleep should be sparse (aside from books) and its upkeep should completely be the responsibility of the prisoners

Liam Byrne · 26-05-2010 3:32pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Prisons in Ireland are some of the most horrible in Europe, way worse in fact although perhaps some of the ones in Spain would give them a run for their money. Usually the people banging on about "holiday camps" have never been to a prison, nor do they know anyone who has been in one.

Which is pretty much the way that it should be.

Yes, rehab and better facilities should be available to those involved in petty crimes, those who can be rehabilitated before they do more damage.

But for cases like the one this thread is actually about, forget "rehab"; he was given 75 previous chances (which is a chronic indictment of our legal system) and so should have been locked up and the lock welded shut and the key thrown away.

In fact, if it were a member of my family that got murdered like this, I would be contemplating legal action against the idiot that gave him every bail from the 10th upwards.

You give chances and rehab to those who deserve it; those who completely and repeatedly give the two-fingers to society should be treated like the dogs that they are.

FTA69 · 26-05-2010 3:39pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

Rather than spending millions we don't have to house our prisoners, why not go for the big field, two fences, guard towers and tents approach?

It would solve overcrowding.

So if we as a society are then serious about rehabilitation or ending the revolving door system for drug addicts etc how does one achieve that in a facility of tents etc?

In my opinion (and that of the likes of John Lonergan) the Dóchas women's prison was by far the most sophisticated attempt at it in this country, banging people into sh*tholes won't make the blindest bit of difference to be honest.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/nov/14/norway-prison-erwin-james

caseyann · 26-05-2010 4:00pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Caseyann,I can appreciate your desire to see a positive element in all of this sad spectacle,however at 21 years of age and with some serious violence related offences under his belt,this was no ordinary "young-lad" out for a bit of harmless craic.

One really does have to underline the views of Justice McKechnie and particularly the final sentance....
I cannot accept that watching an associate stick a screwdriver through another man`s skull and then kicking that victim in the head can demonstrate any intent other than to deprive that victim of his senses,and most likely life itself,as happened here.

A thug who deserves justice i never said he was not.Convictions over the years he may have,But who is at fault that this lad was not locked up in first place and given the chance at rehabilitation.Our system is failure prison is a failure.
The blame of death may lay at his and his friends feet.But also the interaction of the polish for not avoiding the confrontation and ringing the garda while staying inside their house.
On top of that do you think in the mind of both of them lads was i will kill him to die?
I am sure it was not in his mind i am sure anger resentment was.
No one argues that they aren't guilty but i will say it is possible they will have to live with that for rest of their lives what has happened.And perhaps as been only young they may have a chance to change.
Where does it all stem from go back to the route.
In some cases evil is just inside a person.In others it comes from a long life of hard ship or violence in their back round.And you can see from his long line of convictions he has tendency for problems and alot of anger.System should have dealt with him and alot of other people in this country long before it came to ruining whole families lives including their own.
But what do i know.

Nijmegen · 26-05-2010 4:09pm

FTA69 wrote: »

So if we as a society are then serious about rehabilitation or ending the revolving door system for drug addicts etc how does one achieve that in a facility of tents etc?

In my opinion (and that of the likes of John Lonergan) the Dóchas women's prison was by far the most sophisticated attempt at it in this country, banging people into sh*tholes won't make the blindest bit of difference to be honest.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/nov/14/norway-prison-erwin-james

Carrot and stick. Rehabilitation is not an excuse for all prisoners to receive good treatment. Like a job, where you're paid more than I am for being better at your job or being higher up, let's treat prisoners better or worse depending on their behaviour and willingness to rehabilitate.

I don't believe in molly coddling these people, because they bring terror onto our streets, in small as well as big ways.

It's an all up rethink we need, including better rehabilitation, but also better punishments: Full sentences for people, not this joke of concurrant; tent prisons to solve overcrowding; better accomodation and treatment for prisoners who play ball; and misery for those that don't.

caseyann · 26-05-2010 4:16pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

Carrot and stick. Rehabilitation is not an excuse for all prisoners to receive good treatment. Like a job, where you're paid more than I am for being better at your job or being higher up, let's treat prisoners better or worse depending on their behaviour and willingness to rehabilitate.

I don't believe in molly coddling these people, because they bring terror onto our streets, in small as well as big ways.

It's an all up rethink we need, including better rehabilitation, but also better punishments: Full sentences for people, not this joke of concurrant; tent prisons to solve overcrowding; better accomodation and treatment for prisoners who play ball; and misery for those that don't.

I agree.
You hear of people doing to the day for a fine, every day given to them they will do to the letter, they are like the good people of Ireland.That is to them a nightmare of colossal proportions.
For hardened people who see no good in their lives and don't really give a **** about them selves never mind any one else,Its a walk in the park.
They are shoved in cells sometimes come out worse for the beating and rapes they have to endure from worse prisoners.
Prison is not a deterrent when things like that have happened to you.
I heard once someone say I go to prison to get a break from everything :eek:
There needs to be new standards of rehabilitation and sentencing and carried on after they are released.And maybe we wont get to this point of them becoming killers.

Dr Galen · 26-05-2010 4:16pm

for those suggesting tent prison camps, this might be an interesting read for you. It appears that the US methods may not actually be the best way to prevent reoccurring offending.

From TIME.com

By the time the trumpets sound, the candles have been lit and the salmon platters garnished. Harald V, King of Norway, enters the room, and 200 guests stand to greet him. Then a chorus of 30 men and women, each wearing a blue police uniform, launches into a spirited rendition of "We Are the World." This isn't cabaret night at Oslo's Royal Palace. It's a gala to inaugurate Halden Fengsel, Norway's newest prison.

Ten years and 1.5 billion Norwegian kroner ($252 million) in the making, Halden is spread over 75 acres (30 hectares) of gently sloping forest in southeastern Norway. The facility boasts amenities like a sound studio, jogging trails and a freestanding two-bedroom house where inmates can host their families during overnight visits. Unlike many American prisons, the air isn't tinged with the smell of sweat and urine. Instead, the scent of orange sorbet emanates from the "kitchen laboratory" where inmates take cooking courses. "In the Norwegian prison system, there's a focus on human rights and respect," says Are Hoidal, the prison's governor. "We don't see any of this as unusual."

Halden, Norway's second largest prison, with a capacity of 252 inmates, opened on April 8. It embodies the guiding principles of the country's penal system: that repressive prisons do not work and that treating prisoners humanely boosts their chances of reintegrating into society. "When they arrive, many of them are in bad shape," Hoidal says, noting that Halden houses drug dealers, murderers and rapists, among others. "We want to build them up, give them confidence through education and work and have them leave as better people."

Countries track recidivism rates differently, but even an imperfect comparison suggests the Norwegian model works. Within two years of their release, 20% of Norway's prisoners end up back in jail. In the U.K. and the U.S., the figure hovers between 50% and 60%. Of course, a low level of criminality gives Norway a massive advantage. Its prison roll lists a mere 3,300, or 69 per 100,000 people, compared with 2.3 million in the U.S., or 753 per 100,000 — the highest rate in the world.

Design plays a key role in Halden's rehabilitation efforts. "The most important thing is that the prison looks as much like the outside world as possible," says Hans Henrik Hoilund, one of the prison's architects. To avoid an institutional feel, exteriors are not concrete but made of bricks, galvanized steel and larch; the buildings seem to have grown organically from the woodlands. And while there is one obvious symbol of incarceration — a 20-ft. (6 m) concrete security wall along the prison's perimeter — trees obscure it, and its top has been rounded off, Hoilund says, "so it isn't too hostile."
(See the 25 crimes of the century.)

The cells rival well-appointed college dorm rooms, with their flat-screen TVs and minifridges. Designers chose long vertical windows for the rooms because they let in more sunlight. There are no bars. Every 10 to 12 cells share a living room and kitchen. With their stainless-steel countertops, wraparound sofas and birch-colored coffee tables, they resemble Ikea showrooms.

Halden's greatest asset, though, may be the strong relationship between staff and inmates. Prison guards don't carry guns — that creates unnecessary intimidation and social distance — and they routinely eat meals and play sports with the inmates. "Many of the prisoners come from bad homes, so we wanted to create a sense of family," says architect Per Hojgaard Nielsen. Half the guards are women — Hoidal believes this decreases aggression — and prisoners receive questionnaires asking how their experience in prison can be improved.

There's plenty of enthusiasm for transforming lives. "None of us were forced to work here. We chose to," says Charlott-Renee Sandvik Clasen, a music teacher in the prison and a member of Halden's security-guard chorus. "Our goal is to give all the prisoners — we call them our pupils — a meaningful life inside these walls." It's warmth like that, not the expensive television sets, that will likely have the most lasting impact.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html#ixzz0p35vYaaT

sickofwaiting · 26-05-2010 4:48pm

Most of these utter scumbags are beyond rehabilitation. Are they are too twisted and too moronic to contemplate a change of life. I think we should be looking more at prison as a way of keeping the scum off the streets for a very long time rather than letting them out early after trying to rehabilitate them and hoping it's worked.

In the States life means life as it should. Here it's about 12 years on average, it's a ****ing joke. Why not just call it '12 years'? What genius put the name 'life' on a prison sentence that averages out at 12 years? Concurrent sentencing is also a massive problem here. There have been so many incidents down the years where psychos who should have been locked away for 40 years+ are out in a fraction of that time and have committed more serious crimes because all their sentences ran concurrent.

**** rehabilitation of these scumbags, they should be locked up for life away from decent people.

caseyann · 26-05-2010 4:48pm

Dr Galen wrote: »

for those suggesting tent prison camps, this might be an interesting read for you. It appears that the US methods may not actually be the best way to prevent reoccurring offending.

From TIME.com

Never in million years would i agree with American prison system.The prisoners run them places there.Its a circus.
That Norwegian one as well,i think a bit to over the top.
The whole of this country sports education,opportunities for all young men and women should be looked into.So they can stop the route of the problem long before it gets to a problem.

sickofwaiting · 26-05-2010 4:52pm

caseyann wrote: »

The blame of death may lay at his and his friends feet.But also the interaction of the polish for not avoiding the confrontation and ringing the garda while staying inside their house.

That's a terrible thing to say. The polish guys had absolutely no blame to take for what happened. They were targetted from start to finish by complete and utter twisted scumbags looking to inflict serious harm. All the polish guys were 'guilty' of were standing up for themselves against these knackers after they had already given one of the polish guys a pretty severe beating only 10 minutes earlier.

caseyann · 26-05-2010 4:55pm

sickofwaiting wrote: »

That's a terrible thing to say. The polish guys had absolutely no blame to take for what happened. They were targetted from start to finish by complete and utter twisted scumbags looking to inflict serious harm. All the polish guys were 'guilty' of were standing up for themselves against these knackers after they had already given one of the polish guys a pretty severe beating only 10 minutes earlier.

They should not have approached them.They should have not stood up to them.They should have took their own safety into account.Rang the Garda not acted like blokes.
Which led to their own deaths.

Laminations · 26-05-2010 5:27pm

Dr Galen wrote: »

for those suggesting tent prison camps, this might be an interesting read for you. It appears that the US methods may not actually be the best way to prevent reoccurring offending.

From TIME.com

There's plenty of enthusiasm for transforming lives. "None of us were forced to work here. We chose to," says Charlott-Renee Sandvik Clasen, a music teacher in the prison and a member of Halden's security-guard chorus. "Our goal is to give all the prisoners — we call them our pupils — a meaningful life inside these walls." It's warmth like that, not the expensive television sets, that will likely have the most lasting impact.

I agree it is the opportunity for rehabilitation that makes an impact on rates of recidivism. So like the last part of that article states, it shouldn't matter much whether prisoners are bettering themselves in hotel-standard accommodation or in a tented field, its how they are treated while there. AND their own behaviour while there (i.e. engagement with programes and respect for staff) should play a part in determining how they are treated. The article suggests covering high prison walls with trees - no need to do that in a well fortified field.

SeanW · 26-05-2010 5:35pm

caseyann wrote: »

They should not have approached them.They should have not stood up to them.They should have took their own safety into account.Rang the Garda not acted like blokes.
Which led to their own deaths.

That's right. Blame the victim, and of course as you suggested above the crinimal scumbags who drove screwdrivers into their brains were really only harmless misguided youths.

Crazy. tbh I'm really tempted to tell you what I really think of your attitude but I'd probably also earn a red card for it.

So suffice to say I disagree, quite strongly, both with your appraisal of the perps and your view of the victims.

caseyann · 26-05-2010 5:47pm

SeanW wrote: »

That's right. Blame the victim, and of course as you suggested above the crinimal scumbags who drove screwdrivers into their brains were really only harmless misguided youths.

Crazy. tbh I'm really tempted to tell you what I really think of your attitude but I'd probably also earn a red card for it.

So suffice to say I disagree, quite strongly, both with your appraisal of the perps and your view of the victims.

I didn't blame them,but stupid thing to do confronting people who are aggro.Meaning they went out there looking for aggro also.unfortunately their actions let to their deaths.
Just because i say that doesn't mean i think they aren't guilty.

Liam Byrne · 26-05-2010 5:50pm

caseyann wrote: »

They should not have approached them.They should have not stood up to them.They should have took their own safety into account.Rang the Garda not acted like blokes.
Which led to their own deaths.

I'd be very curious to see if you have a similar opinion on any reports of rape.

caseyann · 26-05-2010 5:55pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'd be very curious to see if you have a similar opinion on any reports of rape.

How on earth would this scenario become the same as someone getting raped?
Are you trying to say men or women can see they are going to get raped?

Complete opposites here.They knew the guilty parties were out for a fight.The polish lads were been typical polish lads thinking they were going to kick their asses.And out of their pure lack of thinking, it ended very badly.

Liam Byrne · 26-05-2010 6:01pm

caseyann wrote: »

How on earth would this scenario become the same as someone getting raped?
Are you trying to say men or women can see they are going to get raped?

Complete opposites here.They knew the guilty parties were out for a fight.The polish lads were been typical polish lads thinking they were going to kick their asses.And out of their pure lack of thinking they it ended very badly.

What ????

You claimed that the victim was to blame.

"out of their pure lack of thinking" ????? That's right.....the Polish guy was one of those sci-fi people who can move items with their minds, and could have deflected a repeat-offender scumbag's screwdriver if only he'd been "thinking" :rolleyes:

Standing up for yourself is not a crime.

How the hell was the Polish guy to know that this was an unreformable violent repeat offender ?

Just as a girl might not know that the guy she met at the bar was a rapist.

I mean, the guy at the bar couldn't possibly have raped 75 other people, because the justice system would surely have ensured that people like that aren't on the streets, wouldn't it ?

Maybe you'd prefer if we all rolled over and let these thugs take over everything ?

caseyann · 26-05-2010 6:07pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What ????

You claimed that the victim was to blame.

"out of their pure lack of thinking" ????? That's right.....the Polish guy was one of those sci-fi people who can move items with their minds, and could have deflected a repeat-offender scumbag's screwdriver if only he'd been "thinking" :rolleyes:

Standing up for yourself is not a crime.

How the hell was the Polish guy to know that this was an unreformable violent repeat offender ?

Just as a girl might not know that the guy she met at the bar was a rapist.

I mean, the guy at the bar couldn't possibly have raped 75 other people, because the justice system would surely have ensured that people like that aren't on the streets, wouldn't it ?

Maybe you'd prefer if we all rolled over and let these thugs take over everything ?

So you are saying to me ok?
If two guys who you had previously fought with or had an altercation with,you would walk out and fight him because you wont take that from thugs?
Yeah because in Poland they never let the thugs back out on the street?
They used the logic of we can beat their asses and they shouldn't have they should have used Their minds not their aggression.
Their lack of thinking led them to their deaths.
Ofc they couldn't have known they had a weapon,but out of common sense and not bravado they should not have approached the situation at all.
There is no point in going on about what they should have done because to late now anyway.
But hopefully other people will realise fighting with someone who is obviously out to cause damage to you is better off to ring authorities and keep yourself safe.

Your scenario is completely different.

Liam Byrne · 26-05-2010 6:14pm

caseyann wrote: »

Yeah because in Poland they never let the thugs back out on the street?

Irrelevant.

caseyann wrote: »

They used the logic of we can beat their asses

Did they now ? Were you talking to them just prior to the murder ?

caseyann wrote: »

their lack of thinking led them to their deaths.

A scumbag with a screwdriver led to the death. Period.

caseyann wrote: »

But hopefully other people will realise fighting with someone who is obviously out to cause damage to you is better off to ring authorities and keep yourself safe.

That is true (although I stand over anyone's right to stand up to scum).....however the main point of the thread is that "people" (and I use the term lightly) like the murderer who have 75 previous convictions should not be on the streets.

caseyann wrote: »

Your scenario is completely different.

No, it's not. You're claiming that their actions contributed to the reaction, which is the usual claim thrown at rape victims. And you're not even remotely applying the same criteria to the scumbag, who could equally have walked away if he "was thinking".

But the scumbag chose to murder.

The main point, however, is that someone with 75 previous convictions shouldn't be out on the streets; they should probably have been put down.

caseyann · 26-05-2010 6:31pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Irrelevant.

Did they now ? Were you talking to them just prior to the murder ?

A scumbag with a screwdriver led to the death. Period.

That is true (although I stand over anyone's right to stand up to scum).....however the main point of the thread is that "people" (and I use the term lightly) like the murderer who have 75 previous convictions should not be on the streets.

No, it's not. You're claiming that their actions contributed to the reaction, which is the usual claim thrown at rape victims. And you're not even remotely applying the same criteria to the scumbag, who could equally have walked away if he "was thinking".

But the scumbag chose to murder.

The main point, however, is that someone with 75 previous convictions shouldn't be out on the streets; they should probably have been put down.

No it is obvious why else would they have bothered to go out there in first place.It was not to calm it down and have a chat.
They did not think of their safety,they thought of only fighting.

And 75 convictions ofc he shouldn't have been on street,after two he shouldn't have been on streets.He should have been getting some sort of counseling long before to stop it from getting to 75 convictions and then walking around.In this case he should have had a monitor and a perimeter of where and where can not go.
Like i said back there the system failed again.And the whole system for kids growing up and interests and social interaction and education need to be over hauled again.
I would say he is uneducated and lack of any proper social etiquette or respect for himself or life.

Ofc he chose to cause harm and it resulted in death which is murder.

I never said no one has a right to stand up for them selves(especially if you can not escape the situation) but better they dont as we can see in this situation of what the outcome was.

Liam Byrne · 26-05-2010 6:35pm

caseyann wrote: »

I would say he is uneducated and lack of any proper social etiquette or respect for himself or life.

You're making an awful lot of excuses for, and suppositions about, the murderer, and feck-all for the victim.

Strange, that.

BTW, the "system" might fail small-time criminals, but serious repeat offenders ?

No matter what "social etiquette" or education you have, there is no excuse for 75 convictions and driving a screwdriver through someone's neck.

caseyann · 26-05-2010 6:39pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You're making an awful lot of excuses for, and suppositions about, the murderer, and feck-all for the victim.

Strange, that.

BTW, the "system" might fail small-time criminals, but serious repeat offenders ?

No matter what "social etiquette" or education you have, there is no excuse for 75 convictions and driving a screwdriver through someone's neck.

I am not making any excuses for them at all.They killed two people which is awful same as that poor lad Daniel mcanaspie.
The system failed as both those lads are obviously very unhappy troubled young men.And alot of it is to do with social and education in life.
They weren't serious offenders all along.

SeanW · 26-05-2010 6:48pm

caseyann wrote: »

They weren't serious offenders all along.

Yes they were. One of them had 75 previous convictions by the age of 21, and had been out on bail for yet another crime (or crimes more likely) when they did (or got involved in) the murder of those two Polish men.

You have to be born and bred scumbag to have that kind of record.

Nermal · 26-05-2010 6:58pm

caseyann wrote: »

The system failed

The criminals failed our system.

The problem was not this life sentence, which is absolutely proportionate. The problem was that a life sentence was not imposed for any of the previous 74 convictions.

caseyann · 26-05-2010 7:32pm

SeanW wrote: »

Yes they were. One of them had 75 previous convictions by the age of 21, and had been out on bail for yet another crime (or crimes more likely) when they did (or got involved in) the murder of those two Polish men.

You have to be born and bred scumbag to have that kind of record.

Criminal damage, stealing cars, public order and road traffic offences?
Hardly murderous?

Scum bags are not born they are created by society,ofc they have to take some responsibility for themselves.But when did they start such criminal acts?(sounds very young beginning and that is sad)Should have been dealt with a long time ago.

Keogh's family apologised to the families of the two Polish men and expressed their 'deep and heartfelt' sorrow.
Keogh also expressed his 'deep, deep remorse' and said he hoped both his family and the victims' families could get on with their lives.

So partly our system should be held accountable that someone who had so many convictions was in fact out on the streets and not under house arrest?
In the main reason was he considered a dangerous criminal and would be dangerous to others?

caseyann · 26-05-2010 7:35pm

Nermal wrote: »

The criminals failed our system.

The problem was not this life sentence, which is absolutely proportionate. The problem was that a life sentence was not imposed for any of the previous 74 convictions.

Previous convictions are not allowed to be used in sentencing for completely different cases.And they did not want to drag it all into the case or would have been dragged out for alot longer.

What should have been imposed on him is prison sentence and counseling of some sort for his lack of respect for others.

Liam Byrne · 26-05-2010 7:45pm

caseyann wrote: »

What should have been imposed on him is prison sentence and counseling of some sort for his lack of respect for others.

"lack of respect" ???? Is that what you call it ? :eek:

I have a severe lack of respect for most of the current Government, but I still wouldn't drive a screwdriver through their neck!

The level to which you're diluting the crime and avoiding recognising their choices and actions is insane!

johnnyskeleton · 26-05-2010 8:44pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

IMHO this young chap should have got life too for his part in the assault leading to death.
...
The only way to avoid this is harsh sentences.

The only way he could have got life for his part in it, is if the jury convicted him of murder or manslaughter. But they didn't do that. So arguing for harsher sentences on foot of this particular case doesn't make logical sense.

johnnyskeleton · 26-05-2010 9:06pm

Laminations wrote: »

Johnnyskeleton can I ask you if you think the sentence was fitting (not in a legal sense i.e. It was almost the max allowed) but does 4.5 years fit the crime?

If he was convicted of murder he should have gotten life. If he was acquitted of all charges then she shouldn't serve any time. He pleaded guilty to section 3 assault. Asking what sort of sentence he should have got, "not in a legal sense" is a strange question because the person should be sentenced for the crime(s) they are convicted of, not those that they are acquitted of.

Laminations wrote: »

And although the judge may be limited by maximum sentences here, how do you explain the doling out of concurrent sentences

I must have missed that part of the sencence. I thought the only conviction before the court was the section 3, and this was made consecutive to the sentence he is currently serving, no?

Laminations wrote: »

or the fact that some judge, on this scums 75th conviction, thought it appropriate to let this guy out on bail?

Was it a judge, or was it station bail? Did the gardai object to bail? These are important issues to know.

What were his previous convictions for? If they were for minor enough road traffic offences and no section 2 objection to bail was made, then how exactly, other than with your powers of 20:20 hindsight vision, would the judge know what he was about to do?

Laminations wrote: »

Bail is a sign of judgement that the offender is not a danger to society. The amount of crimes committed on bail shows very poor judgement from our judiciary, a judiciary that are accountable to no one. At least we can and will fire the minister come next election

No it isn't. I'm amazed at how many people express definitive views on what judges should do without even understanding fairly basic concepts like bail. Bail is an entitlement of every person accused of a crime (for which they are presumed innocent) and can only be refused if they are likely not to stand trial, to interfere with the course of justice, or, ONLY WHERE THE GARDAI MAKE AN APPLICATION pursuant to section 2 of the bail act, where they are likely to commit further serious offences while on bail. Nothing to do with an assessment that a person is not a danger to society.

irishh_bob · 26-05-2010 9:44pm

caseyann wrote: »

I didn't blame them,but stupid thing to do confronting people who are aggro.Meaning they went out there looking for aggro also.unfortunately their actions let to their deaths.
Just because i say that doesn't mean i think they aren't guilty.

you sure know how to equivocate

caseyann · 26-05-2010 10:08pm

irishh_bob wrote: »

you sure know how to equivocate

I wasnt aware i was that smart to attempt that.

SLUSK · 26-05-2010 11:06pm

The probability for repent offenses if you execute a prisoner is very low. However not many people seem to think executions are a good idea.

I personally believe we should both bring back the death penalty and corporal punishment. Justice must be done.

Singapore is one of the safest places in the world because they have executions and corporal punishment

AlekSmart · 27-05-2010 1:40am

I`m quoting the following from caseyann`s posts as I am having such difficulty coming to terms with whatever thinking may be behind them.....

But also the interaction of the polish for not avoiding the confrontation and ringing the garda while staying inside their house.

Yeah because in Poland they never let the thugs back out on the street?
They used the logic of we can beat their asses and they shouldn't have they should have used Their minds not their aggression.
Their lack of thinking led them to their deaths.

No it is obvious why else would they have bothered to go out there in first place.It was not to calm it down and have a chat.
They did not think of their safety,they thought of only fighting.

They should not have approached them.They should have not stood up to them.They should have took their own safety into account.Rang the Garda not acted like blokes.
Which led to their own deaths.

I didn't blame them,but stupid thing to do confronting people who are aggro.Meaning they went out there looking for aggro also.unfortunately their actions let to their deaths.

Complete opposites here.They knew the guilty parties were out for a fight.The polish lads were been typical polish lads thinking they were going to kick their asses.And out of their pure lack of thinking, it ended very badly.

There is to me something chillingly grotesque about the tone and content of the posts.

As a matter of Interest caseyann,are you from the area where the executions took place ?

Did you know these particular Polish Men in any way,as in have you an inclination as to their personalities ?

What is a "Typical Polish lad" like as a person ?

Perhaps it`s time to draw a veil over this particular crime,as it now seems there may be a campaign afoot to airbrush it from the collective memory.

It`s worth considering that as far as the State is concerned the job is done and dusted.
Justice has been served and those who were prosecuted have been punished appropriately.

It`s also worth considering that at least one of the guilty parties will be a free-man within the next 3 years.

There remain serious issues surrounding the decisions of the DPP and the level of disagreement between his office and the investigating Gardai in respect of the two female`s who were central to the entire scenario.

However,time will move on and lives will be lived,memories will fade and people will continue to read into it what they will.

When she(?) moves away from the issue of the behaviour of the Polish men,caseyann touches on some rather more basic human nature stuff about the inate goodness within us all etc.

Sadly the behaviour of the youthful pack in the lead-up to the executions is now quite readily recognisable to any resident of an Irish,village,town or city.

Both of the convicted men represent a type of humanity that is now replicated all over our land.

A type of individual always ready with the verbal lash,the sneaky thump,or eventually,the thrust of the blade or the pull of a trigger.

That comfort with violence is what sets them apart from their peers and in modern Ireland,the Cullen and the Keogh mentality is predominant within the disadvantaged youth.

Yes caseyann may be correct when she bemoans the lack of facilities,understanding and resources for these youthful types.

However,I fear that is only a small part of the equation,but the part which is easiest to espouse and one which will have many wise heads nodding sagely in response.

However,these executions,may perhaps indicate a deeper malaise within the community at large...what that may be is open to question,but there is something very badly wrong here.

It`s all too easy to point to lack of facilities for our young people,but one needs to realize that one of Dublins largest and best run Community Youth Centre`s lies only metres from where this youthful pack hunted down and executed Pawel Kalite and Marius Szwajkos.

I remain puzzled and not a little saddened at caseyann`s line of thinking...I hope that i`m reading it wrong

Liam Byrne · 27-05-2010 2:21am

Great (if saddening) post by Alex.

I remember at one stage wondering what was going wrong.

Growing up, we had feck-all - facilities-wise or, to a large extent, money-wise.

The only thing we had going for us was a damn good mum and dad.

Now, forgive me for stating the obvious, but the state can't provide those, and can't compensate for them by providing "facilities".

I remember sitting in the pub chatting about some crime that had happened, and the agreement was that we weren't out mugging old ladies.....not because of deterrents or the law, but because we just damn-well wouldn't do it. Even if there were no law against it, or associated punishment, we damn well wouldn't do it.

I'm sorry, but lack of facilities, etc, does not cause anyone to commit crimes; not serious ones, anyway.

They choose to do so.

Anyone who commits 75 crimes (actually : correction : has been convicted of 75 crimes, and therefore has probably done many more) should not be on the streets imposing their will on law-abiding citizens.

And anyone that commits anything as sickening as this one deserves to be locked up for life; or even, as someone suggested, re-introducing capital punishment.

The system did fail, but only - as I said earlier - it failed the victim and the public, badly; people who should be able to walk the streets or stand up for themselves without worrying whether they're confronting a psychopathic killer who has a well-known track record.

Does anyone know why this murderer was given bail so many times ?

I know someone mentioned earlier that previous crimes are viewed as irrelevant, but surely this doesn't / shouldn't apply as soon as someone hits, say, 10 convictions ?

Surely that would indicate that yes, if they were let out / given a chance there was a damn good chance that they would commit another crime ?

Who didn't someone call stop ?

Because - the murderer's choice and final responsibility aside - whoever didn't shout stop also contributed to this man's death.

Nijmegen · 27-05-2010 8:53am

Alex - I only wish I could thank your post twice.

Laminations · 27-05-2010 11:07am

Caseyann are you saying that because of their upbringing (victim card) that Keogh and Cullen couldn't tell the difference between right and wrong?

I believe strongly in social responsibility, providing opportunities for people to better themselves, because people can't simply choose rich or poor, it's about the circumstance they find themselves in. However I believe everyone of sound mind can choose between good and bad and know the difference between right and wrong, maybe not in the level of admitting you got too much change back but definitely on the level of stabbing vs. not stabbing someone through the head with a screwdriver. Even knowing before this that it us wrong to carry a screwdriver 'casually'. So either they knew this and are completely to blame or they didn't and are not of sound mind. The latter seems to be what you are suggesting and makes them far more dangerous, acting like animals unconscious of the damage they are causing, either way none of this is the Polish mens fault

irishh_bob · 27-05-2010 11:27am

AlekSmart wrote: »

I`m quoting the following from caseyann`s posts as I am having such difficulty coming to terms with whatever thinking may be behind them.....

There is to me something chillingly grotesque about the tone and content of the posts.

As a matter of Interest caseyann,are you from the area where the executions took place ?

Did you know these particular Polish Men in any way,as in have you an inclination as to their personalities ?

What is a "Typical Polish lad" like as a person ?

Perhaps it`s time to draw a veil over this particular crime,as it now seems there may be a campaign afoot to airbrush it from the collective memory.

It`s worth considering that as far as the State is concerned the job is done and dusted.
Justice has been served and those who were prosecuted have been punished appropriately.

It`s also worth considering that at least one of the guilty parties will be a free-man within the next 3 years.

There remain serious issues surrounding the decisions of the DPP and the level of disagreement between his office and the investigating Gardai in respect of the two female`s who were central to the entire scenario.

However,time will move on and lives will be lived,memories will fade and people will continue to read into it what they will.

When she(?) moves away from the issue of the behaviour of the Polish men,caseyann touches on some rather more basic human nature stuff about the inate goodness within us all etc.

Sadly the behaviour of the youthful pack in the lead-up to the executions is now quite readily recognisable to any resident of an Irish,village,town or city.

Both of the convicted men represent a type of humanity that is now replicated all over our land.

A type of individual always ready with the verbal lash,the sneaky thump,or eventually,the thrust of the blade or the pull of a trigger.

That comfort with violence is what sets them apart from their peers and in modern Ireland,the Cullen and the Keogh mentality is predominant within the disadvantaged youth.

Yes caseyann may be correct when she bemoans the lack of facilities,understanding and resources for these youthful types.

However,I fear that is only a small part of the equation,but the part which is easiest to espouse and one which will have many wise heads nodding sagely in response.

However,these executions,may perhaps indicate a deeper malaise within the community at large...what that may be is open to question,but there is something very badly wrong here.

It`s all too easy to point to lack of facilities for our young people,but one needs to realize that one of Dublins largest and best run Community Youth Centre`s lies only metres from where this youthful pack hunted down and executed Pawel Kalite and Marius Szwajkos.

I remain puzzled and not a little saddened at caseyann`s line of thinking...I hope that i`m reading it wrong

what lies behind casey anns thinking is a particular idealogical value system , pollitically correct left liberalism , its a value system which allows someone to be absolved of blame for almost anything providing they fit a particular social demographic , race , gender or religon , in this particular instance , its the category of disadvantaged wellfare class , hence the excuses about how the screwdriver wielding murderer wasnt hugged enough by his mom while growing up or couldnt afford grinds

caseyann · 27-05-2010 11:28am

AlekSmart wrote: »

I`m quoting the following from caseyann`s posts as I am having such difficulty coming to terms with whatever thinking may be behind them.....

There is to me something chillingly grotesque about the tone and content of the posts.

As a matter of Interest caseyann,are you from the area where the executions took place ?

Did you know these particular Polish Men in any way,as in have you an inclination as to their personalities ?

What is a "Typical Polish lad" like as a person ?

Perhaps it`s time to draw a veil over this particular crime,as it now seems there may be a campaign afoot to airbrush it from the collective memory.

It`s worth considering that as far as the State is concerned the job is done and dusted.
Justice has been served and those who were prosecuted have been punished appropriately.

It`s also worth considering that at least one of the guilty parties will be a free-man within the next 3 years.

There remain serious issues surrounding the decisions of the DPP and the level of disagreement between his office and the investigating Gardai in respect of the two female`s who were central to the entire scenario.

However,time will move on and lives will be lived,memories will fade and people will continue to read into it what they will.

When she(?) moves away from the issue of the behaviour of the Polish men,caseyann touches on some rather more basic human nature stuff about the inate goodness within us all etc.

Sadly the behaviour of the youthful pack in the lead-up to the executions is now quite readily recognisable to any resident of an Irish,village,town or city.

Both of the convicted men represent a type of humanity that is now replicated all over our land.

A type of individual always ready with the verbal lash,the sneaky thump,or eventually,the thrust of the blade or the pull of a trigger.

That comfort with violence is what sets them apart from their peers and in modern Ireland,the Cullen and the Keogh mentality is predominant within the disadvantaged youth.

Yes caseyann may be correct when she bemoans the lack of facilities,understanding and resources for these youthful types.

However,I fear that is only a small part of the equation,but the part which is easiest to espouse and one which will have many wise heads nodding sagely in response.

However,these executions,may perhaps indicate a deeper malaise within the community at large...what that may be is open to question,but there is something very badly wrong here.

It`s all too easy to point to lack of facilities for our young people,but one needs to realize that one of Dublins largest and best run Community Youth Centre`s lies only metres from where this youthful pack hunted down and executed Pawel Kalite and Marius Szwajkos.

I remain puzzled and not a little saddened at caseyann`s line of thinking...I hope that i`m reading it wrong

My line of thinking?
What could have been avoided ended in death?
So to make other people aware of what these Polish men did by returning to the confrontation,others now may think twice before they attempt the same thing? Do you not think so?
Its sad they died this is true.
Answer me this Alex what do you think was going through the two polish guys thoughts when they walked straight into that argument?
No fight?
Typical polish guys alot more than an Irish guy will have more bravado and not back down.

caseyann · 27-05-2010 11:31am

Laminations wrote: »

Caseyann are you saying that because of their upbringing (victim card) that Keogh and Cullen couldn't tell the difference between right and wrong?

I believe strongly in social responsibility, providing opportunities for people to better themselves, because people can't simply choose rich or poor, it's about the circumstance they find themselves in. However I believe everyone of sound mind can choose between good and bad and know the difference between right and wrong, maybe not in the level of admitting you got too much change back but definitely on the level of stabbing vs. not stabbing someone through the head with a screwdriver. Even knowing before this that it us wrong to carry a screwdriver 'casually'. So either they knew this and are completely to blame or they didn't and are not of sound mind. The latter seems to be what you are suggesting and makes them far more dangerous, acting like animals unconscious of the damage they are causing, either way none of this is the Polish mens fault

No they cant play the card anymore.But hopefully there is a way back for them,to live and not harm any other person.
Most people who have 75 convictions under their belt dont show they are of sound mind at all!

Laminations · 27-05-2010 11:42am

caseyann wrote: »

No they cant play the card anymore.But hopefully there is a way back for them,to live and not harm any other person.
Most people who have 75 convictions under their belt dont show they are of sound mind at all!

My question was, I suppose, do you think they knew the difference between right and wrong?

Laminations · 27-05-2010 11:47am

caseyann wrote: »

My line of thinking?
What could have been avoided ended in death?
So to make other people aware of what these Polish men did by returning to the confrontation,others now may think twice before they attempt the same thing? Do you not think so?
Its sad they died this is true.
Answer me this Alex what do you think was going through the two polish guys thoughts when they walked straight into that argument?
No fight?
Typical polish guys alot more than an Irish guy will have more bravado and not back down.

so we are to live in communities wher we avert our gaze so as not to 'antagonize' scum and receive a 'what the fvck you lookin at?' , we are not to answer back or defend ourselves? We are to run and hide, avoid going to the local shops/chipper/offlicence? We are to accept their insults and smart remarks because doing otherwise is asking fir trouble, after which we have only ourselves to blame. Should we really just sheepishly hand our neighbourhoods over to teenage thugs?

"Thug who attacked dying Pole was on bail" (75 previous convictions)

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