Government defeats byelection motion

gandalf · 19-05-2010 2:05pm #1

Government wins byelection vote

EOIN BURKE-KENNEDY

The Government has narrowly defeated a Dáil motion calling for an immediate byelection in Waterford.

The Coalition voted down the joint Fine Gael and Labour motion calling on the Government to set a date for the byelection by 77 votes to 72, maintaining a majority of only five.

These elections have to be held and the Government know they are going to get stamped on whenever they hold why do they not just set a date and get them over with.

All they are doing is adding fuel to the fire that they are being undemocratic and are not allowing people in the effected constituencies have full representation.

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny said his party planned to bring a private members' bill before the Dáil next week calling for all byelections to be held within six months of the vacancy occurring.

Why six months the positions should be filled as soon as possible with a maximum time to call the elections at 3 months.

Then again if we had a list system then the seat would be filled by the next person on the list of candidates that the parties submitted before the general election without the need for another wasteful by-election.

Full Story is here.

Cookie_Monster · 19-05-2010 2:14pm

:mad:

Democracy me hole, why can't they even get them all to turn up for a vote like this

77 votes to 72

= 149 of (166-3=)163 :mad: Lazy ****ers, where are the others today?

I can't see how FF TD's can just blindly follow the whip on this one, the whole thing is anti-democratic

gandalf · 19-05-2010 2:19pm

What's galling is the response of one of the FF TD's for one of the areas under-represented?

Waterford Fianna Fáil TD Brendan Kenneally claimed the electorate was more concerned with the management of the economy than holding the three pending byelections in Waterford, Donegal South West and Dublin South.

While everyone is worried about the economy it shouldn't be used as a shield to hide from having these by-elections. What next no general election in 2012 because everyone is worried about the economy!!

Nice representation of his constituents by that FF TD as well. The voters of Waterford should remember that at the next General Election.

Cookie_Monster · 19-05-2010 2:21pm

What he should have said if anything

Waterford Fianna Fáil TD Brendan Kenneally claimed the electorate was more concerned with the mis-management of the economy than holding the three pending byelections in Waterford, Donegal South West and Dublin South.

unaetoile · 19-05-2010 3:19pm

Is this a dictatorship or a democracy. The lack of a by-election is clear sign of the former. If these seats do not merit a democratically elected representative of the people, why not just eliminate and reduce the number of TDs by this 3 (a starting point to reform the number of non-productive members of the Dail).

Banned Account · 19-05-2010 3:23pm

Our democracy will always be a dictatorship - if you have a majority in the Dail, you will win all votes and defeat all private members bills. Thsi is why we should be expanding the powers of the Seanad and not talking about dismantling it - checks and balances folks.

wes · 19-05-2010 3:28pm

This is a sorry state of affairs. Not holding these By-elections, is clearly a part of a desperate move, by a government, that know damn well it will get a pasting, so is going the undemocratic route to cling to power as long as possible.

Fuhrer · 19-05-2010 3:31pm

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Our democracy will always be a dictatorship - if you have a majority in the Dail, you will win all votes and defeat all private members bills. Thsi is why we should be expanding the powers of the Seanad and not talking about dismantling it - checks and balances folks.

If people voted in one party to the dail, wouldnt the Seanad get the same percentage representation?

Pride Fighter · 19-05-2010 3:39pm

Democracy, Fianna Fail style.

Banned Account · 19-05-2010 3:40pm

Fuhrer wrote: »

If people voted in one party to the dail, wouldnt the Seanad get the same percentage representation?

Not necessarily - the majority of the Seanad are elected by sitting and ex-politicians and councillors, you then have Cowen's choice and the Uni vote. The reality is that the make up seldom differs from that in the Dail.

There is a provision for a different method of election but it has not been used since Dev got the hump. The real idea is that the Seanad should be drawn from different interest groups, divorced from traditional party political lines. If they were granted the power to strike down and/or amend legislation as opposed to just dely it, it may force a change in the way in which the Dail operates.

Taxipete29 · 19-05-2010 3:40pm

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Our democracy will always be a dictatorship - if you have a majority in the Dail, you will win all votes and defeat all private members bills. Thsi is why we should be expanding the powers of the Seanad and not talking about dismantling it - checks and balances folks.

Govt also has an in-built majority in the Seanad

Banned Account · 19-05-2010 3:45pm

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Govt also has an in-built majority in the Seanad

See the above post - there is a constitutional remedy for this already in existance.

scr123 · 19-05-2010 3:51pm

Pointless holding the byeelections when its very possible the next Budget will fail to pass in the house and there will be a GE on Xmas Eve that will confirm the opposition to FF will have all the answers and we can all enjoy Xmas knowing the country is in great hands and all our problems are solved
Roll on Xmas !

KrazeeEyezKilla · 19-05-2010 3:52pm

deadtiger wrote: »

While everyone is worried about the economy it shouldn't be used as a shield to hide from having these by-elections. What next no general election in 2012 because everyone is worried about the economy!!

Don't go giving them ideas. They'll probably say that it would destabilise the economy and that the markets wouldn't like it.

Fuhrer · 19-05-2010 3:58pm

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

. The real idea is that the Seanad should be drawn from different interest groups, divorced from traditional party political lines.

Oh, **** that.

So, Unions, Pro-Lifers and Joe Duffy listeners should get powers to run the country?

No thanks, sounds much worse.

Banned Account · 19-05-2010 4:01pm

Fuhrer wrote: »

Oh, **** that.

So, Unions, Pro-Lifers and Joe Duffy listeners should get powers to run the country?

No thanks, sounds much worse.

And of employers, the self employed etc etc?

Fuhrer · 19-05-2010 4:08pm

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

And of employers, the self employed etc etc?

Special interest groups rarely represent great swathes of people, just usually the most militant and outspoken out there. Therefore ti stands to reason that minority interests would be served if they were given power rather then majority.

Banned Account · 19-05-2010 4:31pm

Fuhrer wrote: »

Special interest groups rarely represent great swathes of people, just usually the most militant and outspoken out there. Therefore ti stands to reason that minority interests would be served if they were given power rather then majority.

You are assuming that politicians are not a special interest group;)

Marshy · 19-05-2010 4:32pm

Even thought there's no credible reason government can give for delaying the by-elections, its naive to think any other government would act differently and not protect its own interests.

If they held the elections over the summer and inevitably lost all 3, the majority would be precarious. Its political reality that governments will protect themselves, unsatisfactory as it might be.

Mr.Micro · 19-05-2010 4:39pm

Marshy wrote: »

Even thought there's no credible reason government can give for delaying the by-elections, its naive to think any other government would act differently and not protect its own interests.

If they held the elections over the summer and inevitably lost all 3, the majority would be precarious. Its political reality that governments will protect themselves, unsatisfactory as it might be.

Since Biffo and Co. believe that he and they are doing the right thing in managing the economy and country, so what do they have to fear then from the electorate in these 3 constituencies as the voters will surely agree with them? Its a disgrace in a democracy that these 3 constituencies are not represented all because it is the shambolic FF putting its interests before democracy and the interests of the nation.

Marshy · 19-05-2010 4:46pm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Since Biffo and Co. believe that he and they are doing the right thing in managing the economy and country, so what do they have to fear then from the electorate in these 3 constituencies as the voters will surely agree with them?

They wouldn't be that blind to ignore the fact people don't like cutbacks and tax hikes, regardless of whose in charge.

Its a disgrace in a democracy that these 3 constituencies are not represented all because it is the shambolic FF putting its interests before democracy and the interests of the nation

As I say though, thats political reality, its not just a FF phenomenon. In the UK, the new government is already putting forward a proposal whereby a 55% majority would be required to dissolve the House of Commons.

Biggins · 19-05-2010 4:49pm

No surprise there then it was defeated.
Self-interest wins again.

average_runner · 19-05-2010 4:56pm

Ye guys are so funny.

Get FF out etc. Who you going to vote in that will make a difference?

Give it one year after the general election whenever it is and the same lot of ye be moaning about that goverment!

I aint a FF but I aint naive to below any of the other parties will make a difference.

So many people on here believe they know alot and maybe they do and fair play but why not start a new party in what ye believe in:)

Biggins · 19-05-2010 5:08pm

average_runner wrote: »

Ye guys are so funny.

Get FF out etc. Who you going to vote in that will make a difference?

Give it one year after the general election whenever it is and the same lot of ye be moaning about that goverment!

I aint a FF but I aint naive to below any of the other parties will make a difference.

So many people on here believe they know alot and maybe they do and fair play but why not start a new party in what ye believe in:)

Some of us are trying to - and in the meanwhile while we are trying to do so, should we shut the hell up about these cowardly self-interest dictators (in all but name)?

...I think not!

baalthor · 19-05-2010 5:37pm

Marshy wrote: »

They wouldn't be that blind to ignore the fact people don't like cutbacks and tax hikes, regardless of whose in charge.

As I say though, thats political reality, its not just a FF phenomenon. In the UK, the new government is already putting forward a proposal whereby a 55% majority would be required to dissolve the House of Commons.

That's to complement the fixed term parliamemt proposal.

Marshy · 19-05-2010 5:45pm

baalthor wrote: »

That's to complement the fixed term parliamemt proposal.

Yes, still would make it harder to defeat a government.

Sulmac · 19-05-2010 6:05pm

Fine Gael are now proposing that by-elections should be made take place within six months of a vacancy by law. The announcement is here.

danman · 19-05-2010 6:14pm

If anyone on here had a vote on whether they would get the sack, which way would you vote?

It's simply human nature.
Nothing more.

Biggins · 19-05-2010 6:19pm

Sulmac wrote: »

Fine Gael are now proposing that by-elections should be made take place within six months of a vacancy by law. The announcement is here.

I think thats only right.
It should be on the first of news laws to be updated when change comes.

Spiritoftheseventies · 19-05-2010 6:21pm

Yes heard a fianna fail senator on last word saying we didnt to hold the by elections because there were too many TDS as it was and then went off on a tangent about Fine Gael celebrity tds in Dun Laoghaire.
The law is an absolute ass on this. Electorate voted in a td for a purpose, if that seat is vacated it should be filled ASAP

DeVore · 19-05-2010 7:05pm

Its a frackin' disgrace and if people want to march and protest over something, it should be THAT.

The problem of course is who do we put in instead of them?

DeV.

Liam Byrne · 19-05-2010 7:06pm

danman wrote: »

If anyone on here had a vote on whether they would get the sack, which way would you vote?

It's simply human nature.
Nothing more.

Firstly, FF seem to believe that they're doing the right thing. If they truly believe this, then they should actually be convinced that they wouldn't get the sack.

In their deluded minds, they didn't cause this, so (in there) the reason most of us hate their guts and can't wait to see the back of them doesn't exist.

Secondly, it doesn't matter what "human nature" is.....if those with the power to right a wrong don't, and it's because it's in their own vested interests, then it's corruption.

Marshy · 19-05-2010 7:23pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Firstly, FF seem to believe that they're doing the right thing. If they truly believe this, then they should actually be convinced that they wouldn't get the sack.

What they say and what they actually believe are two different things though. I'm sure they don't actually think this move can be rationalised but they have to at least be seen to legitimise it in some way.

dlofnep · 19-05-2010 7:27pm

I'm dissappointed with this. I live in Waterford and we need representation. This is a terrible move by FF and it's going to cost them here, where they normally enjoy a strong vote.

gandalf · 19-05-2010 7:39pm

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Yes heard a fianna fail senator on last word saying we didnt to hold the by elections because there were too many TDS as it was and then went off on a tangent about Fine Gael celebrity tds in Dun Laoghaire.
The law is an absolute ass on this. Electorate voted in a td for a purpose, if that seat is vacated it should be filled ASAP

I agree with him there are too many TD's but that is for a referendum to change not the current government.

As for Senators we have too many of those, as in all of them. Part of the Referendum should be the dissolution of the Seanad.

Spiritoftheseventies · 19-05-2010 8:17pm

DeVore wrote: »

Its a frackin' disgrace and if people want to march and protest over something, it should be THAT.

The problem of course is who do we put in instead of them?

DeV.

Are you telling me between Labour, FG and the independents we cant put together a decent opposition?

Liam Byrne · 19-05-2010 8:22pm

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Are you telling me between Labour, FG and the independents we cant put together a decent opposition?

They'd want to be better independents than the shower that have helped the Greens prop up FF and voted with all their sickening agendas!

Spiritoftheseventies · 19-05-2010 8:27pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

They'd want to be better independents than the shower that have helped the Greens prop up FF and voted with all their sickening agendas!

I think there are some good people on the opposition. Richard Bruton, Joan Burton etc. I just hope people dont fall for the same Fianna Fail ploy of putting down FG to make themselves look better.

aDeener · 19-05-2010 8:40pm

DeVore wrote: »

Its a frackin' disgrace and if people want to march and protest over something, it should be THAT.

The problem of course is who do we put in instead of them?

DeV.

if only he was still around........ :pac:

Spiritoftheseventies · 19-05-2010 8:53pm

deadtiger wrote: »

These elections have to be held and the Government know they are going to get stamped on whenever they hold why do they not just set a date and get them over with.

All they are doing is adding fuel to the fire that they are being undemocratic and are not allowing people in the effected constituencies have full representation.

Why six months the positions should be filled as soon as possible with a maximum time to call the elections at 3 months.

Then again if we had a list system then the seat would be filled by the next person on the list of candidates that the parties submitted before the general election without the need for another wasteful by-election.

Full Story is here.

Five votes is a very small minority. FF really digging in their heels now.

Liam Byrne · 19-05-2010 9:18pm

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

I think there are some good people on the opposition. Richard Bruton, Joan Burton etc. I just hope people dont fall for the same Fianna Fail ploy of putting down FG to make themselves look better.

No argument there.

But I specifically mentioned independents, and I hope the incoming government doesn't have to rely on the same scummy independents that sold us out on NAMA, Anglo and the various votes of confidence.

Spiritoftheseventies · 19-05-2010 9:21pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No argument there.

But I specifically mentioned independents, and I hope the incoming government doesn't have to rely on the same scummy independents that sold us out on NAMA, Anglo and the various votes of confidence.

Hard to know which way the independent will go but I dont think they will make that much of a difference to Fianna Fails numbers this time.
I can really see FF being decimated in next election along with the Greens.

Liam Byrne · 19-05-2010 9:26pm

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Hard to know which way the independent will go but I dont think they will make that much of a difference to Fianna Fails numbers this time.
I can really see FF being decimated in next election along with the Greens.

I think you misunderstood me.....what I mean is that I hope they don't be required for the incoming government....nothing to do with FF.

But I don't want any of the "independent" weasels that sold us out involved in the new government either.

Spiritoftheseventies · 19-05-2010 9:28pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I think you misunderstood me.....what I mean is that I hope they don't be required for the incoming government....nothing to do with FF.

But I don't want any of the "independent" weasels that sold us out involved in the new government either.

You know the deal with independents though. They will get the best deal for their constituents by making whatever deal they can.
Which is always the problem. One constituency benefits while another one suffers.

Inquitus · 19-05-2010 9:28pm

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Hard to know which way the independent will go but I dont think they will make that much of a difference to Fianna Fails numbers this time.
I can really see FF being decimated in next election along with the Greens.

Indeed they will likely be decimated.

Though Labour completely fail to put forward any coherent economic plan, indeed this crap about reversing the paycuts would be simply ruinous.

And then there's FG who just sit on the fence and don't really put forward any plans for how they'll deal with the National Debt.

The sad fact is we are cursed with some of the most useless political parties and politicians in the world, and there's quite alot of evidence that FG/Lab are even less qualified to sort this mess out then the muppets who got us here in the first place......

sdanseo · 19-05-2010 9:31pm

unaetoile wrote: »

Is this a dictatorship or a democracy. The lack of a by-election is clear sign of the former. If these seats do not merit a democratically elected representative of the people, why not just eliminate and reduce the number of TDs by this 3 (a starting point to reform the number of non-productive members of the Dail).

Constitution defines the number of TDs that must be elected pro rata of population. Think its not less that 1 per 30,000 and not more than 1 per 20,000. Dunno would 3 less affect that?]

Bunreacht na h&#201 wrote: »

1° Dáil Éireann shall be composed of members who represent constituencies determined by law.

2° The number of members shall from time to time be fixed by law, but the total number of members of Dáil Éireann shall not be fixed at less than one member for each thirty thousand of the population, or at more than one member for each twenty thousand of the population.

3° The ratio between the number of members to be elected at any time for each constituency and the population of each constituency, as ascertained at the last preceding census, shall, so far as it is practicable, be the same throughout the country.

maynooth_rules · 19-05-2010 9:48pm

This issue really should not be let die. It doesn't surprise me that Fianna Fail don't want it to happen, but yet again the lapdogs at the Greens show why they wont be returning a single TD in the next election. This is as undemocratic as it gets. If Biffo is that convinced that the people are happy with his leadership, then he should have no issues about holding these by elections. But he knows damn well the people of this country do not want this unelected dreadful man leading us. Therefore a GE should be called.

danman · 19-05-2010 9:52pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Firstly, FF seem to believe that they're doing the right thing. If they truly believe this, then they should actually be convinced that they wouldn't get the sack.

In their deluded minds, they didn't cause this, so (in there) the reason most of us hate their guts and can't wait to see the back of them doesn't exist.

Secondly, it doesn't matter what "human nature" is.....if those with the power to right a wrong don't, and it's because it's in their own vested interests, then it's corruption.

Liam, there is a big difference between believing that you're doing the right thing and believing that your popular.
So that argument doesn't stake up.
I've read this argument a few times on this forum.

Was it Dermot Aherne recently, that admitted that FF would loose the next election.
I think they know exactly were they stand.

Given that, they are hanging onto their jobs by their fingernails, would any other person on here vote for themselves to loose their jobs?

I actually want the Donegal by election. Simply because SF think that they have it in the bag. They are in for a rude awakening.
They think that because Pearse Doherty just missed out in the GE, that he will get in now. Forgetting that the 2 main parties have more support between them and he will only get first preferances and very little transfers.

maynooth_rules · 19-05-2010 9:59pm

In effect some of those gombeen independents, and the spineless worthless greens are denying democracy to the people of Ireland. Id expect nothing less from Fianna Fail

Liam Byrne · 19-05-2010 10:15pm

danman wrote: »

Liam, there is a big difference between believing that you're doing the right thing and believing that your popular.

I'm aware of that.

My point is that they have proven time and time again that they have no interest in doing "the right thing".

The "right thing" is to hold the by-elections.

And since they're putting themselves first and not doing that, it just begs the question what else they're doing in their own interests.......NAMA, Anglo, etc ?

Brussels Sprout · 19-05-2010 10:21pm

So how long can they hold out for. I mean hypothetically can they put this off until the next General Election?

Government defeats byelection motion

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