M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Reputable Rog · 28-04-2017 7:34pm

I drove from Dublin to Mallow last night and was struck by how much of an understaking it would be to construct a new interchange or alter the existing interchange to accommodate an M24, unless of course they go for the proposed brain dead solution of keeping it as it is, similar to the proposed M28/N40 junction at Bloomfield, and have the traffic reduced to a single lane.

Harry Palmr · 28-04-2017 7:35pm

marno21 wrote: »

It's nothing to do with a Rep of Cork mindset, nor an anti-Waterford mindset. It's what the feasibility study will say.

The N25 Cork-Waterford road needs dualling as far as Youghal anyway, and the N20 needs dualling to Mallow as a backlog scheme, as does the N24 Limerick-Pallasgreen. Given this, it makes sense to improve all 3.

I read that twice and then understood!

I think it's clear enough that the N24 will never be a contiguous DC of any grade alas. As for the N25 - how many years since the Dungarvan RR was mooted?

bear1 · 28-04-2017 7:38pm

KC161 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/no-funds-for-cork-to-limerick-motorway-says-government-787597.html

That's another million euro thrown away.
You can see what they are thinking, limerick to Cork via cahir.
Gob****es. Why can't they get funding through the eu for this?
Or are they hoping this could be some sort of spring board for a motorway to waterford?

Harry Palmr · 28-04-2017 7:38pm

KC161 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/no-funds-for-cork-to-limerick-motorway-says-government-787597.html

Dr James Ring, CEO of Limerick Chamber of Commerce, says a direct Cork to Limerick motorway is needed, however.

"Ireland needs a strong Dublin, but Dublin needs a strong region, and Cork, Limerick and Galway are dots on a map," he said.

"And on a global scale, we're non-players really. But bring the three of them together and you're starting to form a critical mass, up along the west coast of Ireland.

"The three cities should be working together to try and help the country, not trying to fight over the scraps off Dublin's table

Tells the South East where to go eh?

Idbatterim · 28-04-2017 8:05pm

Just heard this on the radio. Pathetic. WAtch them pull hundreds of millions out of their ass for a welfare increase this year, to the most generourous welfare system in the world. It's pathetic. It's Ireland

boardsuser1 · 28-04-2017 8:10pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Just heard this on the radio. Pathetic. WAtch them pull hundreds of millions out of their ass for a welfare increase this year, to the most generourous welfare system in the world. It's pathetic. It's Ireland

Careful now!

Those on welfare are ENTITLED to an increase before any important roads are built

Harry Palmr · 28-04-2017 8:14pm

Silly arguments abound, maybe a hospital or two could be put on hold as well.

marno21 · 28-04-2017 8:14pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I read that twice and then understood!

I think it's clear enough that the N24 will never be a contiguous DC of any grade alas. As for the N25 - how many years since the Dungarvan RR was mooted?

The traffic levels on the N25 Midleton-Youghal warrant a dual carriageway upgrade - especially to bypass Castlemartyr and Killeagh. The N25 is an important route anyway Cork-Waterford/Rosslare

bear1 wrote: »

That's another million euro thrown away.
You can see what they are thinking, limerick to Cork via cahir.
Gob****es. Why can't they get funding through the eu for this?
Or are they hoping this could be some sort of spring board for a motorway to waterford?

There is already EU funding on the table for the M21 and M28 (absolutely chronic at present) but there is no rush to build these either.

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Tells the South East where to go eh?

That's just referring to the fact that the Atlantic Corridor Patrickswell-Tuam is done and the missing piece, Limerick-Cork is a massively glaring gap in the national motorway network.

bear1 · 28-04-2017 8:21pm

If limerick to Cork is what 90km which would cost up to 1 billion and cahir to limerick is about 70km how much would that cost? 5/600 million?

marno21 · 28-04-2017 8:25pm

bear1 wrote: »

If limerick to Cork is what 90km which would cost up to 1 billion and cahir to limerick is about 70km how much would that cost? 5/600 million?

M7 - M8 at Cahir is about 55km.

Also need Mallow - Cork DC, Cork North Ring Road, Charleville Relief Road & Buttevant Relief road, along with a realignment of the Ballybeg bends, the bends near Anhid Cross etc.

Doesn't seem so cheap now does it?

Just build the ****ing M20 like everyone knows we need, and progress planning on the N24 Limerick-Cahir which is needed too.

road_high · 28-04-2017 9:29pm

marno21 wrote: »

M7 - M8 at Cahir is about 55km.

Also need Mallow - Cork DC, Cork North Ring Road, Charleville Relief Road & Buttevant Relief road, along with a realignment of the Ballybeg bends, the bends near Anhid Cross etc.

Doesn't seem so cheap now does it?

Just build the ****ing M20 like everyone knows we need, and progress planning on the N24 Limerick-Cahir which is needed too.

Sounds like when they were building the M8 and M9, they toyed with various tie ups and alternatives...in the end the logical choice was made to broadly follow the traditional N routes..I think the exact same will happen with the M20, this sounds like a side show to delay commitment to funding..

bear1 · 29-04-2017 1:17am

marno21 wrote: »

M7 - M8 at Cahir is about 55km.

Also need Mallow - Cork DC, Cork North Ring Road, Charleville Relief Road & Buttevant Relief road, along with a realignment of the Ballybeg bends, the bends near Anhid Cross etc.

Doesn't seem so cheap now does it?

Just build the ****ing M20 like everyone knows we need, and progress planning on the N24 Limerick-Cahir which is needed too.

Oh I agree with you. My point was more why the **** take precedence over a road which has less significance that connecting the 2nd and 3rd largest cities.
the government is a farce and the fact they are just pissing around with throwing a million around for a study is a shambles.
Connect Cobh with Cork then onto galway is a massive benefit.
They still act as if it were 2009 and the country was ****ed.
We've got a strong economy, brexit is a massive opportunity and yet here they are giving a children's hospital to the church.
Utter cnuts

AugustusMinimus · 29-04-2017 9:29am

It's fairly obvious at this stage that there is huge pressure coming from somewhere within government to stop this road from happening.

The less trafficked M17 and M18 have flown through. Cork as usual is getting seriously shafted. Never ever will I vote for FG again.

marno21 · 29-04-2017 9:40am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It's fairly obvious at this stage that there is huge pressure coming from somewhere within government to stop this road from happening.

The less trafficked M17 and M18 have flown through. Cork as usual is getting seriously shafted. Never ever will I vote for FG again.

I've been thinking the same, constant wheeling out of the "no money" for planning excuse but the last big ticket N5 scheme is racing through the planning process and there was lots of money for the Listowel bypass when Deenihan was in.

Harry Palmr · 29-04-2017 10:23am

Why would FG have anything against Cork of all places? It's a heartland for them. Simon Coveney has leadership ambitions for peters sake.

Isambard · 29-04-2017 11:42am

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Why would FG have anything against Cork of all places? It's a heartland for them. Simon Coveney has leadership ambitions for peters sake.

Well it's not necessarily anti Cork...could be anti Limerick couldn't it? Or Cork wanting to trade with Dublin more than Limerick? Who knows, there's something behind it

Harry Palmr · 29-04-2017 11:47am

Well as the road connects only those two cities, it would be damned strange to be anti one of them. Logically speaking.

FGR · 29-04-2017 11:53am

I still find it strange given that Michael Noonan is in charge of the purse strings yet won't put the pressure on to give a huge boost to his own constituency. You would think that Simon Coveney would also be pushing this with him.

cjpm · 29-04-2017 12:03pm

FGR wrote: »

I still find it strange given that Michael Noonan is in charge of the purse strings yet won't put the pressure on to give a huge boost to his own constituency. You would think that Simon Coveney would also be pushing this with him.

Coveney couldn't give 2 knobs of Goat sh1t about this as it isn't bothering his electorate (Cork South Central) too much.

Noonan is only waiting for his (excessive) pension.

It's the FG Rats in Cork North Central, Cork North West and Cork East as well as Limerick that should be shouting from the rooftops about it. But of course they haven't a pair of balls between the whole lot of them.

marno21 · 29-04-2017 1:13pm

Michael Creed (Cork North West) is putting all his effort into getting the Macroom bypass started. I understand that, he's from Macroom.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick) is Deputy Minister in the Department of Transport. Nothing from him, it's all about the N21 yet there's no movement on that either.

Sherlock has been mad about the M20 since he left Government. Peddling the usual no money line before that. Plenty of money for Michael Ring's wish list though

road_high · 30-04-2017 12:56am

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Why would FG have anything against Cork of all places? It's a heartland for them. Simon Coveney has leadership ambitions for peters sake.

Coveney is there every other day pumping the parish pump on Facebook. As well as several other junior and a Senior minister- cork is extremely well represented imo in this govt and cabinet.
The road infrastructure is below par (as it is almost everywhere). But in all other measures cork is doing very nicely indeed.

marno21 · 30-04-2017 12:58am

road_high wrote: »

Coveney is there every other day pumping the parish pump on Facebook. As well as several other junior and a Senior minister- cork is extremely well represented imo in this govt and cabinet.
The road infrastructure is below par (as it is almost everywhere). But in all other measures cork is doing very nicely indeed.

I would argue that Cork isn't really parish pump material. Most of what Cork has is deserved considering its size and population.

I would diagree that Cork is well represented, given the strain on various resources around the city, from transport to health.

road_high · 30-04-2017 1:07am

marno21 wrote: »

I would argue that Cork isn't really parish pump material. Most of what Cork has is deserved considering its size and population.

I would diagree that Cork is well represented, given the strain on various resources around the city, from transport to health.

In fairness all parts of the country have issues in both those areas. I appreciate Cork needs major Road investment for sure, but to claim it's not well represented is really stretching things. I live in a 5 seater with neither a senior minister nor junior minister. Cork has several, Coveney and Creed are as parish pump as you'd see- I follow both on fb and every other day they're both in cork launching something or other! If that's not parish pump I'm not sure what is.

Isambard · 30-04-2017 7:38am

the problem ids they are in the City and Cork is a huge County.

Calina · 30-04-2017 7:52am

road_high wrote: »

In fairness all parts of the country have issues in both those areas. I appreciate Cork needs major Road investment for sure, but to claim it's not well represented is really stretching things. I live in a 5 seater with neither a senior minister nor junior minister. Cork has several, Coveney and Creed are as parish pump as you'd see- I follow both on fb and every other day they're both in cork launching something or other! If that's not parish pump I'm not sure what is.

TBH, parish pump would be getting the road sorted, not turning up at opening events. Contrast with money routed to the N5, for example. Doesn't seem to be any delay there but arguably it is less strategically vital for the country as a whole than the M20 would be given that the M20 is part of a north south route along the west.

Isambard · 30-04-2017 9:53am

I imagine TDs are Dublin-centric. They already have a motorway to their Mothership , why would they need one to Limerick?

boardsuser1 · 30-04-2017 11:08am

I've tweeted this thread to the following:

Michèal Martin TD Cork south central
Dara Murphy TD Cork North Central
Tony Fitzgerald (incoming Lord Mayor of Cork)

No replies as yet.

01-05-2017 7:33pm

Serious dose of the tinfoil hat brigade lately in this thread

bear1 · 01-05-2017 7:56pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Serious dose of the tinfoil hat brigade lately in this thread

You can see why people are getting frustrated.
It's not like people are asking for a motorway connecting letterkenny to Derry.
It's an utter shambles and I struggle to think of another eu country where the second and third largest cities aren't connected with a motorway.
The ineptitude of the government when it comes to this project or any project of great expenditure is an utter joke.
These motorways should have been built ages ago, from the very North all the way to rosslare and back up to the border as they said they would.

jacksie66 · 01-05-2017 8:01pm

This post has been deleted.

boardsuser1 · 01-05-2017 8:49pm

The funny bit was when they had a celebration day for the refurbishment of the main street in Buttevant.

Part of the N20, thus main road, what do they decide to do, close it.

Absolute idiots in county hall.

The government is putting a price on lives by not building the road.

The reputed €1 billion price tag is justified in the long run.

Are there any other projects nationwide that come close to the M20 in terms of size and cost?

boardsuser1 · 01-05-2017 8:55pm

Probably wasting my time here, but anyway :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/CorkTruckDriver/status/859133822855720962

mrsoundie · 01-05-2017 10:58pm

KC161 wrote: »

Probably wasting my time here, but anyway :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/CorkTruckDriver/status/859133822855720962

I've liked and retweeted your tweet.

Every little helps

marno21 · 01-05-2017 11:11pm

Councillor calling for objections to M20 rerouting

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/247534/limerick-must-oppose-any-change-to-m20-route.html

spacetweek · 02-05-2017 1:57am

A lot of chitchat in the media and from politicians about the route. None of it helpful.

zulutango · 02-05-2017 9:46am

It is really senseless to route it via Cahir. They'd be turning a 100km journey into a 145km journey (although it would greatly improve the connectivity with Waterford).

If the motorway was routed via Mitchelstown it would be 117km, and would also provide benefits in terms of improving connectivity with Waterford.

Cookiemunster · 02-05-2017 9:51am

zulutango wrote: »

It is really senseless to route it via Cahir. They'd be turning a 100km journey into a 145km journey (although it would greatly improve the connectivity with Waterford).

If the motorway was routed via Mitchelstown it would be 117km, and would also provide benefits in terms of improving connectivity with Waterford.

But would still leave Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville needing bypasses and Mallow to Cork needing to be upgraded to handle the current traffic flows. No route other than a direct Limerick to Cork route makes sense. And TII knows this.

zulutango · 02-05-2017 9:57am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

But would still leave Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville needing bypasses and Mallow to Cork needing to be upgraded to handle the current traffic flows. No route other than a direct Limerick to Cork route makes sense. And TII knows this.

For me the greatest argument by far to build the motorway is to connect the two cities (and Waterford and Galway too) as it is the key piece of infrastructure required to enable the significant growth of these. The bypass argument is small when set against this. In any case, the volumes going through those towns would be a lot less if the Cork-Limerick traffic is removed. Can bypasses be justified on the basis of the residual traffic volumes?

Reputable Rog · 02-05-2017 10:46am

zulutango wrote: »

It is really senseless to route it via Cahir. They'd be turning a 100km journey into a 145km journey (although it would greatly improve the connectivity with Waterford).

If the motorway was routed via Mitchelstown it would be 117km, and would also provide benefits in terms of improving connectivity with Waterford.

Improved connectivity to Waterford should be via Youghal and Dungarvan in the first instance. It's more important for Limerick and Waterford to have good connectivity to Cork than it is to each other.

marno21 · 02-05-2017 10:50am

The feasability study in 2008/9 said that approximately 2,500 cars would be removed from the N20 should the new road be built by Mitchelstown/Cahir.

That means that we still need bypasses of Charleville and Buttevant, and Mallow-Cork dualling. May as well just build the M20 so.

I can't understand how anyone would think Limerick-Waterford or Galway-Waterford connectivity should come before Cork-Limerick connectivity.

Cork-Limerick should be #1. The amount of traffic between Galway and Waterford is negligible in comparison.

grogi · 02-05-2017 10:53am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

But would still leave Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville needing bypasses and Mallow to Cork needing to be upgraded to handle the current traffic flows. No route other than a direct Limerick to Cork route makes sense. And TII knows this.

If there was a motorway taking the Cork-Limerick traffic out of those towns, why would you need a bypass?

zulutango · 02-05-2017 10:55am

Current traffic volumes are only part of the reason why a motorway should be built. This kind of infrastructural project will have a huge bearing on the development of the cities at either end of it and also on those that are not on it. It's about future planning. It may make sense that Limerick and Waterford are developed into major population centres, ahead of Cork, for example. I'm not saying that's the case, but this kind of long term analysis should come into the decision making process.

marno21 · 02-05-2017 10:59am

zulutango wrote: »

Current traffic volumes are only part of the reason why a motorway should be built. This kind of infrastructural project will have a huge bearing on the development of the cities at either end of it and also on those that are not on it. It's about future planning. It may make sense that Limerick and Waterford are developed into major population centres, ahead of Cork, for example. I'm not saying that's the case, but this kind of long term analysis should come into the decision making process.

Long term, Cork and Limerick need a direct motorway link, and in the future perhaps a direct rail link, and there are plenty of places along the way that need a direct link too (Dairygold, Lidl in Charleville etc).

Limerick and Waterford need linking too, but that should be via 2+2 on the N24.

The money is there, it's why they're completely unwilling to spend a whole €15m on the planning for the M20 is what I want to know. No problem in finding money for Kenny & Ring and Deenihan's pet projects.

serfboard · 02-05-2017 11:10am

marno21 wrote: »

The money is there, it's why they're completely unwilling to spend a whole €15m on the planning for the M20 is what I want to know. No problem in finding money for Kenny & Ring and Deenihan's pet projects.

Yes, that question really does need to be asked.

When answering any of these questions one should always ask Cui Bono - i.e. who benefits from the funding not being allocated?

Tinfoil hats aside, you would have to wonder why a Minister For Finance would not be pushing for funding for this, if he thought it would benefit his home city, given, as you say, how many other less important projects have leapfrogged over it. However, if you imagine that his perspective was that this would not benefit Limerick, then you might understand why nothing has happened. Remember, this is a guy who, through his protege and fellow Limerickman John Moran (former Sec. Gen of Dept. of Finance), were putting forward the idea of Limerick as a counter-weight to Dublin, seeing as it is between Cork and Galway.

However, if one's perspective is that, in the event of an M20 being built, that projects/jobs would go to Cork (or maybe Galway) and Limerick would lose out, I think the inertia might be more easily understood.

marno21 · 02-05-2017 11:18am

serfboard wrote: »

Yes, that question really does need to be asked.

When answering any of these questions one should always ask Cui Bono - i.e. who benefits from the funding not being allocated?

Tinfoil hats aside, you would have to wonder why a Minister For Finance would not be pushing for funding for this, if he thought it would benefit his home city, given, as you say, how many other less important projects have leapfrogged over it. However, if you imagine that his perspective was that this would not benefit Limerick, then you might understand why nothing has happened. Remember, this is a guy who, through his protege and fellow Limerickman John Moran (former Sec. Gen of Dept. of Finance), were putting forward the idea of Limerick as a counter-weight to Dublin, seeing as it is between Cork and Galway.

However, if one's perspective is that, in the event of an M20 being built, that projects/jobs would go to Cork (or maybe Galway) and Limerick would lose out, I think the inertia might be more easily understood.

Thankfully said Minister for Finance is currently hurtling rather quickly towards the exit door from his position. Hopefully with someone else at the helm there might be some sort of movement with the scheme.

zulutango · 02-05-2017 11:49am

Anyone have any thoughts about the impact of autonomous vehicles on the decision to build roads such as the M20? The arguments around traffic volumes and congestion could become null and void in a scenario, say 10 years from now, where private car ownership collapses. In a decade or so we may getting from A to B by requesting a car through our phones, it picks us up and brings us to our destination, and then it then heads off away to pick somebody else up. There just would only be a need for a fraction of the amount of cars that we currently have.

It might seem fanciful, but it's not really given the technological advances in recent years and it should be analysed in the context of major road construction projects such as the M20, which wouldn't come on stream for another 10 years at least.

grogi · 02-05-2017 12:52pm

zulutango wrote: »

Anyone have any thoughts about the impact of autonomous vehicles on the decision to build roads such as the M20? The arguments around traffic volumes and congestion could become null and void in a scenario, say 10 years from now, where private car ownership collapses. In a decade or so we may getting from A to B by requesting a car through our phones, it picks us up and brings us to our destination, and then it then heads off away to pick somebody else up. There just would only be a need for a fraction of the amount of cars that we currently have.

It might seem fanciful, but it's not really given the technological advances in recent years and it should be analysed in the context of major road construction projects such as the M20, which wouldn't come on stream for another 10 years at least.

In 25 years maybe, not in 10.

zulutango · 02-05-2017 1:12pm

grogi wrote: »

In 25 years maybe, not in 10.

Why do you say 25? Autonomous vehicles are already driving around in many jurisdictions. And car sharing with autonomous vehicles is also being piloted. From what I've read this situation isn't that far away at all.

marno21 · 02-05-2017 1:15pm

MOD: Autonomous vehicles have zero bearing on whether the M20 will be built or not, and as such are off topic for this thread. Can we return to discussing the M20

zulutango · 02-05-2017 2:32pm

As outlined above, they clearly should be a factor in the decision making process, especially if we're back to square one.

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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