Germany warns Greeks it won't be blackmailed in election

The Corinthian · 06-01-2015 3:43pm

BoatMad wrote: »

where was " fraud " involved , I see no court cases.

That's why I called his argument out as a straw man. He extended the logic to argue that even in a case of fraud the 'victim' would hold some responsibility, which was not what I said, but is typical of his discussion style.

In the case of Irish elections, people did not even question what politicians were saying to them, especially during the boom as they just wanted the good times to continue and asking questions was not desirable. As an electorate we were irresponsible and were even supportive of policies that made the housing bubble even worse (which were them implemented by our elected politicians). When it all went pear-shaped, we suddenly decided we had been misled all along - then we asked questions.

We got and reelected the government we deserved.

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 3:44pm

In the case of Irish elections, people did not even question what politicians were saying to them, especially during the boom as they just wanted the good times to continue and asking questions was not desirable. As an electorate we were irresponsible and were even supportive of policies that made the housing bubble even worse (which were them implemented by our elected politicians). When it all went pear-shaped, we suddenly decided we had been misled all along - then we asked questions.

We got and reelected the government we deserved

You get my full agreement here, the challenge is what we do to stop it continuing

Wurzelbert · 06-01-2015 3:45pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They shouldn't have been allowed in to the euro in the first place. [...]

yup, that is where the whole euro mess began, when too many economically (and often also politically) unstable countries were admitted to the euro zone...having said that, the mess really began when kohl’s german government initially agreed to the introduction of the euro, and it could be traced back further still...
it might be better to end it now with a bang than drag on for years and decades to come...

KomradeBishop · 06-01-2015 3:46pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's why I called his argument out as a straw man. He extended the logic to argue that even in a case of fraud the 'victim' would hold some responsibility, which was not what I said, but is typical of his discussion style.

In the case of Irish elections, people did not even question what politicians were saying to them, especially during the boom as they just wanted the good times to continue and asking questions was not desirable. As an electorate we were irresponsible and were even supportive of policies that made the housing bubble even worse (which were them implemented by our elected politicians). When it all went pear-shaped, we suddenly decided we had been misled all along - then we asked questions.

We got and reelected the government we deserved.

I never mentioned fraud - you said:
"If I go to a market place and buy some 'magic beans' because the man selling them told me they were magic, do I hold no responsibility for my credulity?"

And as I said in my last post:
We don't just tell a person who bought such a product, "tough luck" because they were stupid, we have laws that protect the buyer/victim, and the seller here will have broken the law and is the one that deserves the punishment, not the victim/buyer.

There's no straw-man in what I said, it was based directly off of what you said.

listermint · 06-01-2015 3:46pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not really. If I go to a market place and buy some 'magic beans' because the man selling them told me they were magic, do I hold no responsibility for my credulity?

Caveat emptor does not just apply to consumerism, but to pretty much all social interaction, including politics, and to absolve ourselves of all responsibility simply is not tenable in any mature society. It's 'victim culture' at its worst, TBH.

Does the Seller hold no responsibility in you're scenario based under modern standards and trading acts, not some childrens story tale.

You're analogy is somewhat flawed. And you and Seamus oh and the everyones a lefty brigade in the last two pages are victim blaming.

Sure the electorate shouldnt have worn that short skirt.

Two sides lads. but letting one off scott free is okay .........

lulz...sack

Piliger · 06-01-2015 3:49pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Indeed I didn't mention fraud, but what I was making the comparison to, was this:
"If I go to a market place and buy some 'magic beans' because the man selling them told me they were magic, do I hold no responsibility for my credulity?"

We don't just tell a person who bought such a product, "tough luck" because they were stupid, we have laws that protect the buyer/victim, and the seller here will have broken the law and is the one that deserves the punishment, not the victim/buyer.

I disagree. But following along the line of argument in a slightly different way I do agree that ALL of the blame is not on the electorate. And I don't believe people actually mean that.

What we have seen since the debacle in Ireland is a media and a numskul left wing agenda that puts 100% of the blame on those nasty politicians, and in response others, like me, say no .. it's the electorate who marched and demanded and voted for politicians who promised more and more and more pending and more borrowing.

The truth like most things life in somewhere in between. But the important things is that neither is completely innocent.

Few politicians in this country come to the electorate without a history. People knew they were voting for the manifesto and the record. When people chose to give NO votes to politicians who urged caution and who urged less spending, they have to take responsibility for that action.

When people voted consistently for politicians who campaigned for more spending on health, education, roads, police etc etc etc ... they knew what they were doing and need to take responsibility.
Are the politicians partly to blame ? Of course they are ! But in the fiasco that befell this island there is PLENTY of blame to go around and personally I am totally sick of the merry-go-round and think we ought to accept that we ALL fcuked up and move on to get out out of the sh1t.

The Corinthian · 06-01-2015 3:50pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

We don't just tell a person who bought such a product, "tough luck" because they were stupid, we have laws that protect the buyer/victim, and the seller here will have broken the law and is the one that deserves the punishment, not the victim/buyer.

There's no straw-man in what I said, it was based directly of of what you said.

There is a straw man, because in the vast majority of cases no law will have been broken. Were I to bring someone to court for selling me 'magic beans', the case would be thrown out as a judge would rightly tell me that I should have more cop on than to believe they exist.

The law will not see those who fail to do due diligence as victims, so your argument falls down.

K-9 · 06-01-2015 3:50pm

Well that escalated quickly!

Victim blaming and short skirts!

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 3:50pm

Wurzelbert wrote: »

yup, that is where the whole euro mess began, when too many economically (and often also politically) unstable countries were admitted to the euro zone...having said that, the mess really began when kohl’s german government initially agreed to the introduction of the euro, and it could be traced back further still...
it might be better to end it now with a bang than drag on for years and decades to come...

There is only one of two options open to the EuroZone, full banking integration, i.e. effect monetary union, the germans have effectively said that will only happen after full political union, The other is a breakup of the whole EU which would follow a Eurozone collapse.

However the Germans really want both sides of the cake, full political union, so they can control everyone else but with loads of monetary provisos that in effect allow the Germans the right to keep a foot out of the door.

Its not the Brits that are the Euro skeptics by the way, its the Germans.

listermint · 06-01-2015 3:58pm

K-9 wrote: »

Well that escalated quickly!

Victim blaming and short skirts!

That's the type of semantic nonsense that comes out in defense of the indifference to standards in office.

excuse my prose

KomradeBishop · 06-01-2015 3:59pm

Piliger wrote: »

I disagree. But following along the line of argument in a slightly different way I do agree that ALL of the blame is not on the electorate. And I don't believe people actually mean that.

What we have seen since the debacle in Ireland is a media and a numskul left wing agenda that puts 100% of the blame on those nasty politicians, and in response others, like me, say no .. it's the electorate who marched and demanded and voted for politicians who promised more and more and more pending and more borrowing.

The truth like most things life in somewhere in between. But the important things is that neither is completely innocent.

Few politicians in this country come to the electorate without a history. People knew they were voting for the manifesto and the record. When people chose to give NO votes to politicians who urged caution and who urged less spending, they have to take responsibility for that action.

When people voted consistently for politicians who campaigned for more spending on health, education, roads, police etc etc etc ... they knew what they were doing and need to take responsibility.
Are the politicians partly to blame ? Of course they are ! But in the fiasco that befell this island there is PLENTY of blame to go around and personally I am totally sick of the merry-go-round and think we ought to accept that we ALL fcuked up and move on to get out out of the sh1t.

I don't think all of the blame has been put on the politicians. I think that the best way of making the public choose better in the next election, is to focus public discourse on the politicians, and to be ultra-critical of past/upcoming politicians harmful choices/promises, and have a good understanding of the correct choices.

Talking about how politicians have made harmful choices, helps both the public and future politicians make better choices - talking about how the public made harmful choices in the politicians they chose, usually just distracts from talking about the harmful choices those actual politicians made - that makes it more difficult for the public to be better informed next time.

KomradeBishop · 06-01-2015 4:00pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

There is a straw man, because in the vast majority of cases no law will have been broken. Were I to bring someone to court for selling me 'magic beans', the case would be thrown out as a judge would rightly tell me that I should have more cop on than to believe they exist.

The law will not see those who fail to do due diligence as victims, so your argument falls down.

It's not a straw-man, because in the exact case you provided, a law is broken - that's false advertising, at best.

There are plenty of laws, against sellers deceiving buyers about their product.

Highflyer13 · 06-01-2015 4:10pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Putting an efficient and cost effective socialised health system in place has deified better and richer countries that Ireland. Its not simply " reforming the HSE and cutting the waste and driving efficiency" Thats just a sound bite

You have many issues in the health service

( a) Legacy management issues , from HSE back to county councils
(b) Salaries in the medical service , consultants
(c) The use of trauma hospital beds for long term palliative care( this is a big one) in the absence of hospice or resourced home care solutions
(d) The interaction between public and private activities in public hospitals
(e) The proliferation of small hospitals with inadequate facilities in a small country

These are not simple to resolve and simply adopting a bull in a china shop approach risks destabilising the system. Merely parroting " management efficiency" is to ignore the difficult systemic issues.

Well I understand they are not easy to resolve, but I would have expected a task force of sorts to be set up and the problem alleviated at this stage. Bring Private Sector management into get it working better with new ideas. How and ever our health system is sinking into further deterioration as the years go by. FG and Labour are stagnated on the matter. Leo made an attempt to call out the problems in the HSE and was effectively told to shut up and humiliated by Enda. Enda doesn't give a rats about the state of the health system. It doesn't fit in well with his close knit Economic Management Councils ambitions. Its disgusting and people are dieing because of it. Whatever about looking after our debts we must put our own people first.

The Corinthian · 06-01-2015 4:12pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It's not a straw-man, because in the exact case you provided, a law is broken - that's false advertising, at best.

Go try prosecute such a case and see how far you get.

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 4:17pm

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Well I understand they are not easy to resolve, but I would have expected a task force of sorts to be set up and the problem alleviated at this stage. Bring Private Sector management into get it working better with new ideas. How and ever our health system is sinking into further deterioration as the years go by. FG and Labour are stagnated on the matter. Leo made an attempt to call out the problems in the HSE and was effectively told to shut up and humiliated by Enda. Enda doesn't give a rats about the state of the health system. It doesn't fit in well with his close knit Economic Management Councils ambitions. Its disgusting and people are dieing because of it. Whatever about looking after our debts we must put our own people first.

Actually, if you talk to most management in the HSE and in hospitals privately , most will tell you what the issues are and what should be done. The difficulty , is in trying these solutions , you risk breaking the whole health system

I really think "Enda doesn't give a rats about the state of the health system" is just nonsense political rhetoric, I have met many politicians privately over the years from FF FG SF Lab and others, most are truely concerned about the same issues you and I are, but they are severely confined by the system they find themselves in .

People "maybe" dying because of our health system, but its the difficulty in implementing radical change without causing even more people to die thats the issue.

I was once quoted by a well known politician at a dinner, " Its all very well forcing change , with the resulting industrial disputes, but few people in Ireland have the stomach for a fight , while their mother is dying on a trolly as the nurses are outside with placards "

( for nurses insert any health public worker group )

KomradeBishop · 06-01-2015 4:18pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Go try prosecute such a case and see how far you get.

Here you go - a company using a falsified scientific study, to sell 'magic' coffee beans for weightloss, which got fined by the FTC in the US for making baseless claims:
http://www.livescience.com/48375-dr-oz-cited-bogus-study.html

Highflyer13 · 06-01-2015 4:23pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Actually, if you talk to most management in the HSE and in hospitals privately , most will tell you what the issues are and what should be done. The difficulty , is in trying these solutions , you risk breaking the whole health system

I really think "Enda doesn't give a rats about the state of the health system" is just nonsense political rhetoric, I have met many politicians privately over the years from FF FG SF Lab and others, most are truely concerned about the same issues you and I are, but they are severely confined by the system they find themselves in .

People "maybe" dying because of our health system, but its the difficulty in implementing radical change without causing even more people to die thats the issue.

I was once quoted by a well known politician at a dinner, " Its all very well forcing change , with the resulting industrial disputes, but few people in Ireland have the stomach for a fight , while their mother is dying on a trolly as the nurses are outside with placards "

( for nurses insert any health public worker group )

Nonsense, if the correct contingencies are in place for transitioning and implementing solutions into different sectors of the HSE the system wont be broken. Also it doesn't have to be radical change, it can be well planned, staggered over a period of time change. If they are truly concerned as I am, why does their seem to be so little action and a worsening problem by the year? It sounds to me from your post there is little appetite from politicians to make the neccessary changes in the HSE and PS in general.

The Corinthian · 06-01-2015 4:26pm

Piliger wrote: »

What we have seen since the debacle in Ireland is a media and a numskul left wing agenda that puts 100% of the blame on those nasty politicians

Fianna Fail... the 21st Century's version of 800 years of British oppression.

and in response others, like me, say no .. it's the electorate who marched and demanded and voted for politicians who promised more and more and more pending and more borrowing.

Of course the politicians are to blame, as are the bankers and indeed an entire chain of incompetence and failure, but in a democracy this ends with the electorate.

My personal bugbear is where people begin to whine that they didn't vote for those politicians personally, or those politicians told them it was all fine and they took them at their word and so they feel they not only should not hold any responsibility and someone else should bail them out.

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Here you go - a company using a falsified scientific study, to sell 'magic' coffee beans for weightloss, which got fined by the FTC in the US for making baseless claims:
http://www.livescience.com/48375-dr-oz-cited-bogus-study.html

When I said 'magic' I meant literally 'magic'. If you are willing to trust someone who sells you that, you will be laughed out of court if you sue.

Wurzelbert · 06-01-2015 4:28pm

BoatMad wrote: »

There is only one of two options open to the EuroZone, full banking integration, i.e. effect monetary union, the germans have effectively said that will only happen after full political union, The other is a breakup of the whole EU which would follow a Eurozone collapse.

However the Germans really want both sides of the cake, full political union, so they can control everyone else but with loads of monetary provisos that in effect allow the Germans the right to keep a foot out of the door.

Its not the Brits that are the Euro skeptics by the way, its the Germans.

nobody in germany (or anywhere) would want a full political union across the euro zone...and germans would have every reason to be euro-sceptical, after all the whole thing was designed to control them by further eroding germany’s sovereignty through the abolition of its highly successful currency...
what has been said is that a monetary union could only ever have worked after a political union, which will never happen, and that therefore the euro is basically doomed...

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 4:35pm

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Nonsense, if the correct contingencies are in place for transitioning and implementing solutions into different sectors of the HSE the system wont be broken. Also it doesn't have to be radical change, it can be well planned, staggered over a period of time change. If they are truly concerned as I am, why does their seem to be so little action and a worsening problem by the year? It sounds to me from your post there is little appetite from politicians to make the neccessary changes in the HSE and PS in general.

for example , look at the difficulty in tacking the consultants issues, the government could not contenance a strike or a withdrawal of labour in that case, they basically folded.

Look at the trauma beds issue. that requires the construction of quite a number of palliative care hospices or large amounts iof home care, very very expensive and a long time line

Look at the political and local gerrymandering when the experts recommend concentrating hospitals,

Then you have the privileged position of public service workers, backed by the vice grip of the unions, will any party take them on, will SF , of course not.

Unless you can fire people, you cannot manage , a business must be able to grow and shrink and re-order resources to achieve proper outcomes, in the public sector thats all but impossible.

Thats to leave out the enormous cost of they health service and whether we can afford it at all.

Yes Im not surprised politicians run from it, we the people , will not stomach , what is necessary to fix it.

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 4:41pm

Wurzelbert wrote: »

nobody in germany (or anywhere) would want a full political union across the euro zone...and germans would have every reason to be euro-sceptical, after all the whole thing was designed to control them by further eroding germany’s sovereignty through the abolition of its highly successful currency...
what has been said is that a monetary union could only ever have worked after a political union, which will never happen, and that therefore the euro is basically doomed...

Right now the Eurozone is progressing towards a banking union, that requires even more political union, we will have Eurobonds and the ECB as a bank of last reserve in the next 10 years.

The germans want the Euro, its in their interest as an exporting nation to effectively sell in their own currency the problem is the German people scarred by the war and the Weimar financial issues are hamstrung in seeing what needs to be done.

The EU and eurozone in particular, can only move forward if you share not only the good things but the bad things too ( like having weak parts )

I dont agree the euro is doomed, the strength of the German economy is fading as its beset by the same issues all of Europe is facing. There is only " strength through Unity "

Wurzelbert · 06-01-2015 5:04pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Right now the Eurozone is progressing towards a banking union, that requires even more political union, we will have Eurobonds and the ECB as a bank of last reserve in the next 10 years.

The germans want the Euro, its in their interest as an exporting nation to effectively sell in their own currency the problem is the German people scarred by the war and the Weimar financial issues are hamstrung in seeing what needs to be done.

The EU and eurozone in particular, can only move forward if you share not only the good things but the bad things too ( like having weak parts )

I dont agree the euro is doomed, the strength of the German economy is fading as its beset by the same issues all of Europe is facing. There is only " strength through Unity "

the euro certainly has some advantages as well, as everybody travelling in europe will have noticed, yet let’s not forget that germany was a very strong exporting nation with solid growth long before the euro...so i would say those who say germany needs the euro - and i mean politicians and economists etc. who have a say in things - are simply lying, usually for political or ideological reasons...and you are absolutely right in that the germans are ****ed up by 1918-45, or otherwise there would be no euro...

Piliger · 06-01-2015 5:31pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Actually, if you talk to most management in the HSE and in hospitals privately , most will tell you what the issues are and what should be done.

They may very well claim that they know - but that doesn't mean they are correct. Most of the HSE management are clueless and pen pushers.

Piliger · 06-01-2015 5:36pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes Im not surprised politicians run from it, we the people , will not stomach , what is necessary to fix it.

THAT !

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 5:36pm

Wurzelbert wrote: »

the euro certainly has some advantages as well, as everybody travelling in europe will have noticed, yet let’s not forget that germany was a very strong exporting nation with solid growth long before the euro...so i would say those who say germany needs the euro - and i mean politicians and economists etc. who have a say in things - are simply lying, usually for political or ideological reasons...and you are absolutely right in that the germans are ****ed up by 1918-45, or otherwise there would be no euro...

Just like its suits the US to have trade denominated in dollars, it mighty suits the German economy to have trade carried out in Euros, The alternative would have been a rapidly appreciating Dmark and with it the difficulties in selling high value service and products that the German economy does well.

For example BMW will benefit if its customers deal in the same currency it does , thats obvious, it suffers greatly if its say French customers, now can't afford to buy the same car, cause they have Francs.

while this is clear to german business people and politicians, its perhaps loess clear to the average german , who like many Europeans has had a bad job of having it explained to them.

Some of the problems baked into the Euro are directly tied to German obsessions about inflation and rogue currencies, its a powerful race memory. However those concerns have directly hampered the ECB in trying to deal with the current recession and the recent issues with banks and the Euro.

Its worth noting that the ECB has managed to wriggle quite successfully in recent times around those restrictions, which means in general the German political classes know what has to be done , even if the public don't.

Qualitymark · 06-01-2015 5:40pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Actually, if you talk to most management in the HSE and in hospitals privately , most will tell you what the issues are and what should be done. The difficulty , is in trying these solutions , you risk breaking the whole health system

What do the management tell you, and how is it a solution if it's going to break the health system?

This article

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/03/syriza-future-greece-europe-radical-left

says about Syriza, the party that looks set to be voted in by the Greek people:

These people capture the two sides of the Greek left. On one, the civil war refugees – leftists exiled in barren islands and hostile mountainsides, the imprisoned and executed – who finally found themselves on the winning side. Manolis Glezos, the 92-year-old man who lowered the swastika from the Acropolis in June 1941 and spent a large part of his life in prison, received close to half a million votes, by far the largest number. On the other side, stands the 60% of young people aged 18-24 who are unemployed, along with the squeezed middle-aged and middle-class people, all of whose lives have been devastated by austerity and who stood up and resisted.

and then on its policies:

Between the breakthrough 2012 and the 2014 elections the party has developed a set of policies to kick off economic growth and political renewal. A governing Syriza will raise the minimum wage, reintroduce collective bargaining, and repeal the measures that have led to economic collapse and a humanitarian crisis. It will ask for a substantive haircut of the debt to make it viable – at the start of the crisis the debt was 120% of GDP, after four years of austerity it stands at 175% – and will peg repayment of the rest on economic growth.

Furthermore, the party will defend national sovereignty against the neocolonial policies of the troika, which have suspended the minimum guarantees of the rule of law and the social state. National identity can be radical and patriotic, or exclusionary and xenophobic. To stop the rise of extreme rightwing ideologies, which are an acute problem in Greece, the left must redefine the meaning of patriotism and rescue it from racists.

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 5:40pm

Piliger wrote: »

They may very well claim that they know - but that doesn't mean they are correct. Most of the HSE management are clueless and pen pushers.

This is just "red top " populist nonsense. Of course there are any number of layabouts , but equally there are senior people which decades of exposure to the issues. to say these people don't know what the issues are is nonsense

The next time you can , meet a senior HSE manager, a hospital registar, etc and have an off the record chat . You'll be amazed

Its far to easy to go around saying " its managements fault" it absolves the sayer of any examination of whats really going wrong and sound good to the ill informed listener

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 5:44pm

Between the breakthrough 2012 and the 2014 elections the party has developed a set of policies to kick off economic growth and political renewal. A governing Syriza will raise the minimum wage, reintroduce collective bargaining, and repeal the measures that have led to economic collapse and a humanitarian crisis. It will ask for a substantive haircut of the debt to make it viable – at the start of the crisis the debt was 120% of GDP, after four years of austerity it stands at 175% – and will peg repayment of the rest on economic growth.

Furthermore, the party will defend national sovereignty against the neocolonial policies of the troika, which have suspended the minimum guarantees of the rule of law and the social state. National identity can be radical and patriotic, or exclusionary and xenophobic. To stop the rise of extreme rightwing ideologies, which are an acute problem in Greece, the left must redefine the meaning of patriotism and rescue it from racists.

I didn't know SF where organising in Greece, sounds the same policies to me

of course just who'll pay for "raise the minimum wage,", "reintroduce collective bargaining","repeal the measures", etc

of course it will "ask" for a "substantive haircut of the debt" and be refused like every other Eurozone nation

Furthermore, the party will defend national sovereignty against the neocolonial policies of the troika

Brits out

Rightwing · 06-01-2015 5:44pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Just like its suits the US to have trade denominated in dollars, it mighty suits the German economy to have trade carried out in Euros, The alternative would have been a rapidly appreciating Dmark and with it the difficulties in selling high value service and products that the German economy does well.

For example BMW will benefit if its customers deal in the same currency it does , thats obvious, it suffers greatly if its say French customers, now can't afford to buy the same car, cause they have Francs.

while this is clear to german business people and politicians, its perhaps loess clear to the average german , who like many Europeans has had a bad job of having it explained to them.

Some of the problems baked into the Euro are directly tied to German obsessions about inflation and rogue currencies, its a powerful race memory. However those concerns have directly hampered the ECB in trying to deal with the current recession and the recent issues with banks and the Euro.

Its worth noting that the ECB has managed to wriggle quite successfully in recent times around those restrictions, which means in general the German political classes know what has to be done , even if the public don't.

The Germans know what they are doing, unlike the Greeks, Spanish or Irish.

I'd prefer the Germans running the show. That's really the bottom line.

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 5:47pm

Rightwing wrote: »

The Germans know what they are doing, unlike the Greeks, Spanish or Irish.

I'd prefer the Germans running the show. That's really the bottom line.

unfortunately history shows that not true, they just look good at the start

we on the other hand, are not bad at economic development , given the hand we were dealt, have a look at any of our external weightings and indexes

Rightwing · 06-01-2015 5:53pm

BoatMad wrote: »

unfortunately history shows that not true, they just look good at the start

we on the other hand, are not bad at economic development , given the hand we were dealt, have a look at any of our external weightings and indexes

:eek:

We gave bankers. politicians and developers free reign for a decade to do what they wanted. Let's just say it didn't end pretty.

Piliger · 06-01-2015 5:56pm

Rightwing wrote: »

The Germans know what they are doing, unlike the Greeks, Spanish or Irish.

I'd prefer the Germans running the show. That's really the bottom line.

It's hard to argue with that. We demonstrated a total inability to act responsibly in terms of spending and regulation and the EU and Euro zone must move to tighter regulation of borrowing and debt, but there is no need for banking unification or tax unification either.
The principle should be to establish the minimum possible envelope in which individual countries can operate as they chose.

Piliger · 06-01-2015 5:57pm

Rightwing wrote: »

:eek:

We gave bankers. politicians and developers free reign for a decade to do what they wanted. Let's just say it didn't end pretty.

.. but mainly the electorate.

Rightwing · 06-01-2015 5:59pm

Piliger wrote: »

It's hard to argue with that. We demonstrated a total inability to act responsibly in terms of spending and regulation and the EU and Euro zone must move to tighter regulation of borrowing and debt, but there is no need for banking unification or tax unification either.
The principle should be to establish the minimum possible envelope in which individual countries can operate as they chose.

Agreed. Stricter controls needs to be placed on banks and tax harmonisation isn't as bad as people think.

Piliger wrote: »

.. but mainly the electorate.

The Irish are great for blaming everyone else.

Korat · 06-01-2015 6:04pm

Good cop - Bad cop Economics.

The EU is beautifully dysfunctional.

Piliger · 06-01-2015 6:19pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Agreed. Stricter controls needs to be placed on banks and tax harmonisation isn't as bad as people think.

Actually it is a disaster for periphery countries like Ireland and Kenny is absolutely right to say never. We need to be able to set our own taxes within the EU.

mollymosfet · 06-01-2015 6:19pm

BoatMad wrote: »

This is what is so scary about Ireland, this perspective that somebody else is to blame and the conclusion that someone else is therefore responsible for fixing it.

what's scary about Ireland is the fact that "politics" seems to go hand in hand with yet more right wing ignorance and posturing and general distance from reality.

people haven't really had a credible alternative and the number of u-turns from election promises is enormous. i'm sure the greeks haven't fared much better.

Rightwing · 06-01-2015 6:26pm

Piliger wrote: »

Actually it is a disaster for periphery countries like Ireland and Kenny is absolutely right to say never. We need to be able to set our own taxes within the EU.

It's not a disaster, the current system is unsustainable. The citizens are propping up some of the biggest companies in the world. That's why we are so heavily taxed. Contrast this to the US, where it is the corporations that pay the higher tax.

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 6:28pm

mollymosfet wrote: »

what's scary about Ireland is the fact that "politics" seems to go hand in hand with yet more right wing ignorance and posturing and general distance from reality.

people haven't really had a credible alternative and the number of u-turns from election promises is enormous. i'm sure the greeks haven't fared much better.

what do you mean,

the suffering in Greece is orders of magnitude worse then anything experienced here.

Are you saying we didn't cause our problems, or is this the usual 'blame the troika" stuff

mollymosfet · 06-01-2015 6:32pm

Politics is largely based on selling people an idea, and that involves a certain degree of deception. In particular, the branch of economics practiced by the likes of the Troika, influenced by the Austrian school, almost always goes hand in hand with scare tactics and manipulation of the public conscience. In particular there is a much higher degree of narcissism and sociopathy amongst top capitalists. The fact that western capitalism seems to favour these personality traits is very telling of how this world seems to work.

Right wing economics has almost always been about duping the lower classes into believing the correct and more intellectual thing to do is to accept policies that hurt them and bolster supposed "Wealth generators" despite there being clear evidence that lowering the burden on these supposed job creators(such as the US has done, drastically since the 70s) does nothing to offset the effects of recession or do anything it claims.

People are bullied into accepting these policies. I can't blame the general public because ultimately politics is a manipulation game.

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 6:34pm

It's hard to argue with that. We demonstrated a total inability to act responsibly in terms of spending and regulation and the EU and Euro zone must move to tighter regulation of borrowing and debt, but there is no need for banking unification or tax unification either.
The principle should be to establish the minimum possible envelope in which individual countries can operate as they chose.

besides just hearing the sound of tanks in you argument, you can only have uniform policies if you have fiscal transfers between the richer areas and poorer ones. IN the same way that the tax system "attempts" to even out income distribution, so must the fiscal policies transfer wealth to poorer regions,

Otherwise , the regions with advantages of geography, resources etc, will simply get richer and richer while the poorer regions fall into the mire.
That means for example regional policies at EU level that force / incentivise BMW to say build cars in Athens rather then Munich etc etc ,
Until you accept a system of fiscal transfers , then you cannot have Tax harmonisation and it would be disastrous for countries like Ireland to accept that

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 6:41pm

Originally Posted by Piliger View Post
Actually it is a disaster for periphery countries like Ireland and Kenny is absolutely right to say never. We need to be able to set our own taxes within the EU.
It's not a disaster, the current system is unsustainable. The citizens are propping up some of the biggest companies in the world. That's why we are so heavily taxed. Contrast this to the US, where it is the corporations that pay the higher tax.

Our system of taxes manifestly benefits multinational job creation in this country, we are extremely good at it, as is demonstrated by the jealousy of our various EU neighbours. 25% of ALL world-wide US investment is in Ireland, what the US invests in the rest of Europe hardly amounts to anything.

You would tamper with that at your peril

Equally we are not " heavily taxed" , Ireland is in the median in that regard and thats only after the recent changes, before that we we're criticised as having too low a personal tax rate , with a dependance on windfall taxes like house stamp duty.

The recent property tax etc are an attempt to rebalance the exchequer income away from income tax and windfall taxes. In the US property taxes are a major contribution to taxes.

Right now , without full political union and fiscal transfers , Ireland would be mad in the head to consider surrounding control of taxes.

" out of our cold dead hands" should be our present motto

LuckyLloyd · 06-01-2015 6:51pm

BoatMad wrote: »

The post first war german government, decided to pay for the war costs by borrowing, (* unlike the French , which imposed its first ever income tax) so they removed themselves from the gold standard and started printing money ( like was suggested for the greece, i.e. don't need external currency) .

Furthermore the also had to repay external debt in the increasingly devalued mark , which required even more printing of money. we know what the outcome was of all that.

fiat currencies are built on trust, once you remove that they are literally not worth the paper they are printed on.

greece would find this out horrifying fast

Meh, defaulting has utterly dreadful short term consequences. But within a decade you can stabilise with the new currency and people start viewing you positively again and start lending to you again because they see that you can repay.

There have been many cases of national defaults and return to eventual normality. The questiom, as always, is can you tolerate that short term chaos for long term gain.

Piliger · 06-01-2015 6:57pm

Rightwing wrote: »

It's not a disaster, the current system is unsustainable. The citizens are propping up some of the biggest companies in the world. That's why we are so heavily taxed. Contrast this to the US, where it is the corporations that pay the higher tax.

Most of the biggest corporations in the US pay virtually no tax.

No we are not propping up anyone. These multinationals are bring huge benefits in employment, training, wages and paying huge amounts of employment taxes. Countries like France and Germany hate this and want to strong arm us into increasing our CT so that they can attract more of them into the centre of Europe where they would go if we didn't have a flexible tax regime to attract them here.

Piliger · 06-01-2015 7:00pm

BoatMad wrote: »

besides just hearing the sound of tanks in you argument,

That is just outdated hyperbole.

you can only have uniform policies if you have fiscal transfers between the richer areas and poorer ones. IN the same way that the tax system "attempts" to even out income distribution, so must the fiscal policies transfer wealth to poorer regions,

We don't want or need uniform policies.

Otherwise the regions with advantages of geography, resources etc, will simply get richer and richer while the poorer regions fall into the mire.

Hence we need to stay in control of our economy and tax regime WITHIN reasonable boundaries.

Rightwing · 06-01-2015 7:01pm

Piliger wrote: »

Most of the biggest corporations in the US pay virtually no tax.

No we are not propping up anyone. These multinationals are bring huge benefits in employment, training, wages and paying huge amounts of employment taxes. Countries like France and Germany hate this and want to strong arm us into increasing our CT so that they can attract more of them into the centre of Europe where they would go if we didn't have a flexible tax regime to attract them here.

That's because they come to cowboy places like here. If you only have operations in the US, you will pay tax at a high rate.

Irish companies provide tens of thousands of jobs in the US. It's just the way of globalisation.

lufties · 06-01-2015 7:03pm

Mr.McLovin wrote: »

the germans should just declare war and get it over with

I'm sure the jewish bankers would be more than ready to fund them again

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 7:05pm

Rightwing wrote: »

That's because they come to cowboy places like here. If you only have operations in the US, you will pay tax at a high rate.

Irish companies provide tens of thousands of jobs in the US. It's just the way of globalisation.

cloud cuckoo land , your living in , irish companies provide " tens of thousands " of jobs in the US .... come of it.

Why do you see your own country as "cowboy places". why does the looney left want to dismantle this nation to simply prove a point

Piliger · 06-01-2015 7:06pm

mollymosfet wrote: »

Politics is largely based on selling people an idea, and that involves a certain degree of deception.

Eh nope it doesn't

In particular, the branch of economics practiced by the likes of the Troika, influenced by the Austrian school, almost always goes hand in hand with scare tactics and manipulation of the public conscience. In particular there is a much higher degree of narcissism and sociopathy amongst top capitalists. The fact that western capitalism seems to favour these personality traits is very telling of how this world seems to work.

When it comes to narcissism and sociopathy there is a lot more among the top socialist classes.

Right wing economics has almost always been about duping the lower classes into believing the correct and more intellectual thing to do is to accept policies that hurt them and bolster supposed "Wealth generators" despite there being clear evidence that lowering the burden on these supposed job creators(such as the US has done, drastically since the 70s) does nothing to offset the effects of recession or do anything it claims.

No. Left wing economics has always been about duping the public into thinking that their pseudo economics will actually work despite a hundred years of evidence to the contrary.

People are bullied into accepting these policies. I can't blame the general public because ultimately politics is a manipulation game.

It seems you are no mean player of that game yourself.

BoatMad · 06-01-2015 7:07pm

Piliger wrote: »

Hence we need to stay in control of our economy and tax regime WITHIN reasonable boundaries.

which we have today, we are constrained by eu rules on the application of tax , state aid to business etc

thank you , Im in agreement

Germany warns Greeks it won't be blackmailed in election

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