Germany warns Greeks it won't be blackmailed in election

Kermit.de.frog · 05-01-2015 2:30pm #1

Also it seems they are not that bothered anymore if Greece falls out of the euro.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/germany-will-not-be-blackmailed-into-renegotiating-greek-rescue-1.2055194

The Greeks want to elect a party opposed to the whole bailout on the 25th. But there will be no renegotiation and Germany is not in the mood to tolerate blackmail from a people and it's government it believes over decades was feckless in how it ran it's affairs. And there will be no more money for them.

I hope the left parties do win in Greece later in the month so other PIIGS like Ireland can see the consequences of electing people with no real ideas or alternatives.

The 25th of January could be the start of the disintegration of the eurozone. And once one is forced out the market targets the next weakest link until they are kicked out because no one will believe they can stay.

Beano · 05-01-2015 2:41pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

...

I hope the left parties do win in Greece later in the month so other PIIGS like Ireland can see the consequences of electing people with no real ideas or alternatives.

agreed

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The 25th of January could be the start of the disintegration of the eurozone. And once one is forced out the market targets the next weakest link until they are kicked out because no one will believe they can stay.

i dont think this is a road we want to go down. What if that weakest link ends up being us?

Highflyer13 · 05-01-2015 2:43pm

The Greeks situation is very different to ours. They contributed sweet fook all to Europe and their taxation systems are all over the place. They have done very little to rectify their economy and have missed a few bailout targets. They deserve the talking down they get off Europe. Meanwhile good old Ireland does everything right, we have admitted our faults, taken the medicine, showing the highest level of growth in Europe and still we get treated like sh!t by our European masters. Also more austerity is being imposed on us under the cover of ............ well I wont say it. I fear we will be made pay further for the debts of other nations since we seem to have quite a spineless political class.

Slot Machine · 05-01-2015 2:45pm

Highflyer13 wrote: »

our European masters

The lizard people?

Mr.McLovin · 05-01-2015 2:49pm

the germans should just declare war and get it over with

bear1 · 05-01-2015 2:58pm

From what I've read, if that new Greek party is elected then they are going to ask for a large portion of their debt to be written off. Again.
Beyond a joke at this stage, they should have removed themselves from the Euro and gone back to the Drachma and devalued the currency to make them competitive again when it all started kicking off.
They are like small children who have been refused sweets so they stomp their feet and become sulky until they get what they want.
They already have had a haircut on their debt and yet want more.... maybe the EU should just wipe it all clean for them and tell them to fook off out of the EU altogether.

Kermit.de.frog · 05-01-2015 3:59pm

They shouldn't have been allowed in to the euro in the first place. The books were cooked to make it look like they passed the rules. They didn't. We see the result now for all for Europe.

SEPT 23 1989 · 05-01-2015 4:01pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They shouldn't have been allowed in to the euro in the first place. The books were cooked to make it look like they passed the rules. They didn't. We see the result now for all for Europe.

who helped them cook the books?

bear1 · 05-01-2015 4:03pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

who helped them cook the books?

Exactly.

Dyr · 05-01-2015 4:13pm

Mr.McLovin wrote: »

the germans should just declare war and get it over with

Var ist so last century, ve haff found ozer vays mein pixie headed friend.

bear1 · 05-01-2015 4:21pm

Mr.McLovin wrote: »

the germans should just declare war and get it over with

They already own Europe... no war needed.

Magico Gonzalez · 05-01-2015 4:22pm

bear1 wrote: »

Exactly.

Goldman Sachs, i thought that was a matter of record?

Connemara Farmer · 05-01-2015 4:24pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The 25th of January could be the start of the disintegration of the eurozone.

This is getting as tired a line as an English red top rag headline before every world cup.

Menas · 05-01-2015 4:24pm

Greece will become an even bigger basketcase of a country if they vote those loons in. But the greeks are sick of austerity and I suppose will vote for anyone who tells them they can improve things.

That the trouble with democracy like.

flanzer · 05-01-2015 4:56pm

Can someone tell me in plain terms what the difference is with Greece telling their European masters to fcuk off and Iceland telling the EU to fcuk off??

Iceland seem to be doing alright for themselves now, considering the early turmoil of burning their bondholders

bear1 · 05-01-2015 4:58pm

flanzer wrote: »

Can someone tell me in plain terms what the difference is with Greece telling their European masters to fcuk off and Iceland telling the EU to fcuk off??

Iceland seem to be doing alright for themselves now, considering the early turmoil of burning their bondholders

Well for starters Iceland doesn't belong in the Eurozone and Iceland didn't tell the EU to fcuk off they only told the UK and the NL to

BoatMad · 05-01-2015 4:59pm

flanzer wrote: »

Can someone tell me in plain terms what the difference is with Greece telling their European masters to fcuk off and Iceland telling the EU to fcuk off??

Iceland seem to be doing alright for themselves now, considering the early turmoil of burning their bondholders

Greece is presently in the euro, a eurozone country defaulting, has implications for all eurozone countries and its banking systems. Greece can't act unilaterally, ( nor could Ireland) , Iceland could. clubs are not all benefits, they have constraints too.

Son Of A Vidic · 05-01-2015 5:06pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

who helped them cook the books?

The same criminal scum who advised & fooled Lenihan into bailing out the gamblers Banks.

KomradeBishop · 05-01-2015 5:07pm

flanzer wrote: »

Can someone tell me in plain terms what the difference is with Greece telling their European masters to fcuk off and Iceland telling the EU to fcuk off??

Iceland seem to be doing alright for themselves now, considering the early turmoil of burning their bondholders

Greece are using the Euro as their currency, so when they leave the EU, they have to transition to a new local currency - this is an incredibly chaotic and destructive event, which will result in large-scale capital flight, and possibly economic sanctions since they will effectively be defaulting their debts by redenominating them.

However, that's only destructive in the short/medium-term; staying in Europe means the long-term destruction of their economy/country/democracy effectively, and an exit means a lot of short/medium-term economic destruction, with a return to fully sovereign democracy and economic recovery down the line.

They should have left Europe 5-7 years ago; if they leave now, and Ireland stays in Europe, it could easily happen that Greece may well fully recover within a decade, with Ireland still plodding along with economic stagnation (don't believe anyone who says we are 'recovering' - Europe is about to slip into deflation, and we're all fúcked then, as that means Japanese-style multiple lost decades).

If this party gets voted in, Greece will finally be showing some balls. The economic policies forced upon them, have destroyed their country - and by exiting Europe, they can regain the control needed, to start the (long and slow) effort towards true recovery.

BoatMad · 05-01-2015 5:10pm

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

The same criminal scum who advised & fooled Lenihan into bailing out the gamblers Banks.

where goldman sachs involved in that !

flanzer · 05-01-2015 5:15pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Greece are using the Euro as their currency, so when they leave the EU, they have to transition to a new local currency - this is an incredibly chaotic and destructive event, which will result in large-scale capital flight, and possibly economic sanctions since they will effectively be defaulting their debts by redenominating them.

However, that's only destructive in the short/medium-term; staying in Europe means the long-term destruction of their economy/country/democracy effectively, and an exit means a lot of short/medium-term economic destruction, with a return to fully sovereign democracy and economic recovery down the line.

They should have left Europe 5-7 years ago; if they leave now, and Ireland stays in Europe, it could easily happen that Greece may well fully recover within a decade, with Ireland still plodding along with economic stagnation (don't believe anyone who says we are 'recovering' - Europe is about to slip into deflation, and we're all fúcked then, as that means Japanese-style multiple lost decades).

If this party gets voted in, Greece will finally be showing some balls. The economic policies forced upon them, have destroyed their country - and by exiting Europe, they can regain the control needed, to start the (long and slow) effort towards true recovery.

That's what I'm looking for. Thanks for that

GO GREECE! We're rooting ya!

BoatMad · 05-01-2015 5:17pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Greece are using the Euro as their currency, so when they leave the EU, they have to transition to a new local currency - this is an incredibly chaotic and destructive event, which will result in large-scale capital flight, and possibly economic sanctions since they will effectively be defaulting their debts by redenominating them.

However, that's only destructive in the short/medium-term; staying in Europe means the long-term destruction of their economy/country/democracy effectively, and an exit means a lot of short/medium-term economic destruction, with a return to fully sovereign democracy and economic recovery down the line.

They should have left Europe 5-7 years ago; if they leave now, and Ireland stays in Europe, it could easily happen that Greece may well fully recover within a decade, with Ireland still plodding along with economic stagnation (don't believe anyone who says we are 'recovering' - Europe is about to slip into deflation, and we're all fúcked then, as that means Japanese-style multiple lost decades).

If this party gets voted in, Greece will finally be showing some balls. The economic policies forced upon them, have destroyed their country - and by exiting Europe, they can regain the control needed, to start the (long and slow) effort towards true recovery.

Overly simplistic situation,

Firstly leaving the euro, would mean that Greece's debt would mushroom as it would be denominated in Euros and have to be repaid in devalued Drachma, potentially bankrupting the state.

The effect would cause massive capital flight and would undoubtably bankrupt several greek banks, causing widespread personal hardship for greeks.

The situation in greece is much worse then Iceland.

The meltdown would imperil banks in Europe, possibly leading to significant turmoil.

Externbal credit would virtually dry up for Greece, leading possibly to decades of austerity.

Greeces fundamental issue is it has a chaotic revenue collection system, and massively cooked the states books.

IN comparison , Ireland is a wealthy country, and despite all the whinging, the lattes are still flying out the door in starbucks, and the property prices are climbing. The " poor mouth" is a common feature.

Were it not for the transfer of bank debt to public debt, Ireland would never have experienced any issues, and the problems would have been dealt with by the ECB. As it was we committed self-immolation.

SpaceTime · 05-01-2015 5:18pm

Iceland is also absolutely tiny. The scale of what went on there is vastly over estimated.
Greece is 36 times bigger.

County Cork is 200,000 people bigger than Iceland!

Also they took a huge hit in their currency rates resulting in a loss of almost half their spending power.

The big difference is Iceland's and Ireland's bubbles were largely just that - a big fat bubble built on top of and swamping small but very progressive, effective and modern economies.

Greece was very poor before the bubble and the bubble was the economy.
When it burst it caused total chaos where as here it caused us to tumble back to a fairly sustainable reality. It hurt but it didn't completely kill us.

The situations aren't really comparable.

Greece might also benefit big time from being a cheap tourism destination again, as would Southern Spain. Ireland wouldn't really have that benefit. We'd just drive down our purchasing power and find life suddently very miserable.

I've been in Iceland, they've a recovery going on but they're a LOT poorer now and also because the population is so tiny 10,000 people emigrating to Scandinavia can totally change the UE figures. A lot of people also stopped looking for jobs and are retraining or no longer economically active too (housewives and househusbands etc)

BoatMad · 05-01-2015 5:18pm

flanzer wrote: »

That's what I'm looking for. Thanks for that

GO GREECE! We're rooting ya!

you mean the answer you wanted to hear or the real reality.

KomradeBishop · 05-01-2015 5:22pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Overly simplistic situation,

Firstly leaving the euro, would mean that Greece's debt would mushroom as it would be denominated in Euros and have to be repaid in devalued Drachma, potentially bankrupting the state.

The effect would cause massive capital flight and would undoubtably bankrupt several greek banks, causing widespread personal hardship for greeks.

The situation in greece is much worse then Iceland.

The meltdown would imperil banks in Europe, possibly leading to significant turmoil.

Externbal credit would virtually dry up for Greece, leading possibly to decades of austerity.

Greeces fundamental issue is it has a chaotic revenue collection system, and massively cooked the states books.

IN comparison , Ireland is a wealthy country, and despite all the whinging, the lattes are still flying out the door in starbucks, and the property prices are climbing. The " poor mouth" is a common feature.

Were it not for the transfer of bank debt to public debt, Ireland would never have experienced any issues, and the problems would have been dealt with by the ECB. As it was we committed self-immolation.

No, Greece would redenominate its debts in 'New Drachma' - if they allowed their debts to stay denominated in Euro, you'd likely get Weimar-style hyperinflation, as they'd be forced to print-and-exchange once reserves of Euro ran out.

Once Greece has its own currency, it has no need for external credit - though it does have a need for external trade.

Kermit.de.frog · 05-01-2015 5:25pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I've been in Iceland, they've a recovery going on but they're a LOT poorer now and also because the population is so tiny 10,000 people emigrating to Scandinavia can totally change the UE figures. A lot of people also stopped looking for jobs and are retraining or no longer economically active too (housewives and househusbands etc)

Don't forget Iceland's government has restricted market access for money and they only get it at punitive rates.

Ireland currently pays just over 1% to borrow for 10 years. Iceland pays over 6% - loan shark territory basically. Iceland is busted and untrustworthy.

You can't default without consequences. It's basically Argentina in the north Atlantic.

KomradeBishop · 05-01-2015 5:27pm

flanzer wrote: »

That's what I'm looking for. Thanks for that

GO GREECE! We're rooting ya!

An exit would still be an horrendously ugly event though - so what we aught to root for, is a softening of policies from Europe (especially Germany), which does not require any country exiting; very unlikely though, given Germany's policies thus far.

seamus · 05-01-2015 5:27pm

You can't redenominate external debt and decide to pay back your creditors in coal rather than gold.

Well, you can, but you will instantly find yourself without any coal or gold and nobody willing to give you any.

The exit of Greece could return some stability and growth to the Eurozone in the medium-term.

BoatMad · 05-01-2015 5:27pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

No, Greece would redenominate its debts in 'New Drachma' - if they allowed their debts to stay denominated in Euro, you'd likely get Weimar-style hyperinflation, as they'd be forced to print-and-exchange once reserves of Euro ran out.

Once Greece has its own currency, it has no need for external credit - though it does have a need for external trade.

Greece cannot demoninate existing bonds or loans in " new drachma" it has legal obligations to repay in euros.

What it would then be faced with is default. That brings massive implications

Greece needs access to the money markets , after a default it would find that hard to impossible , especially without eurozone support.

NOt to mention the fallout effect in the eurozone generally,

Nor does any party in greece really want to leave the Euro

BoatMad · 05-01-2015 5:29pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

An exit would still be an horrendously ugly event though - so what we aught to root for, is a softening of policies from Europe (especially Germany), which does not require any country exiting; very unlikely though, given Germany's policies thus far.

The germans are living with QE, thats a start, then well see Eurobonds in time, ultimately the germans need the eurozone and they just have to grow up and start living with the cousins cooking garlic,.

KomradeBishop · 05-01-2015 5:30pm

seamus wrote: »

You can't redenominate external debt and decide to pay back your creditors in coal rather than gold.

Well, you can, but you will instantly find yourself without any coal or gold and nobody willing to give you any.

It's effectively the same as defaulting - no sane country would ever accept foreign-denominated debts as large as Greece's debt would be; that's a recipe for hyperinflation.

Germany warns Greeks it won't be blackmailed in election

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