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Dublin school cancels workshop on homophobic bullying, saying “both sides should be r

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    #392
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,494 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    spikeS wrote: »
    It's just attention seekers do a dis service to those that really are suicidal. It makes it harder to know if some really is cause the attention seekers cry wolf so much

    Even if they don't end up in a critical condition people don't just make suicide attempts for the fun of it. Clearly they are going through sh!t and need help, and should be given it. Consider yourself lucky you've never had suicidal thoughts and have some respect for those who do and have to suffer their intensely sh!tty lives


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    #393
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,659 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    floggg wrote: »
    I'm going to respond to this somewhat out of sequence to avoid having to repeat myself.


    floggg I'm not cutting you short here but for the sake of avoiding getting into anything more serious, I'm going to take a step back from the thread and tbh I'd advise others to do the same for themselves.

    I'm not avoiding discussing the issues. It's just that on the internet is sometimes the most inappropriate medium for some of these discussions as none of us here are aware of what's going on in other posters' lives, and I for one don't feel comfortable with the turn this thread is taking.

    It's all too easy for discussions like this to get emotive and I don't want to unknowingly or otherwise offend anyone here so I'm stepping back from this thread now.


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    #394
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    Even if they don't end up in a critical condition people don't just make suicide attempts for the fun of it. Clearly they are going through sh!t and need help, and should be given it. Consider yourself lucky you've never had suicidal thoughts and have some respect for those who do and have to suffer their intensely sh!tty lives

    Who said I haven't had the thoughts and don't have my helium tank here waiting, just if I do it it will be done, I would never cry wolf


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    #395
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,494 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    spikeS wrote: »
    Who said I haven't had the thoughts and don't have my helium tank here waiting, just if I do it it will be done, I would never cry wolf

    Clearly you've never had suicidal thoughts if you speak about suicidal people with such little respect


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    #396
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    Clearly you've never had suicidal thoughts if you speak about suicidal people with such little respect

    Clearly I have considered it greatly and why I have so little respect for the attention seekers that use it for attention


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    #397
    conorh91
    Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    spikeS wrote: »
    It's just attention seekers do a dis service to those that really are suicidal. It makes it harder to know if some really is cause the attention seekers cry wolf so much
    I actually do think a lot of suicide attempts are cry for attention. In the same way that calling an ambulance is a cry for attention. Except with suicide, the sick person may not have the language to articulate his needs, or cannot access the resources to attend his needs.

    There is self-harm that is manifestly not intended to be fatal. But it's better-described as a cry for help. Failure to respond to that call for help is surely where the danger lies.

    I'd be interested in knowing how many suicide victims have a history of self harm that deliberately stopped short of being fatal. I'd say it's fcuking huuge.

    So calling it attention-seeking, although literally correct, is only attention-seeking in the same way as calling 999 after shattering a limb is 'attention-seeking'. You risk minimizing the self-harm and how healthcare professionals might use it as a warning signal in preventing suicide.


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    #398
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    Information for those in need of a little extra help


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    #399
    Venus In Furs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Venus In Furs


    All these posts from one person about attempted suicides being attention-seeking... looks pretty attention-seeking to me.


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    #400
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Daith wrote: »

    Now what issues in a LGBT workshop focused on homophobic bullying would some parents object to.

    They might have objected to workshops of any kind tbh. Given lost days already to strikes some parents might think that attending this is not the best use of their children's time, especially if they are in an exam year.

    When I was in school, I remember attending these kinds of things and they were a total waste of time. The bullies didn't listen, and the event was thought of as a doss class.


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    #401
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    conorh91 wrote: »
    I actually do think a lot of suicide attempts are cry for attention. In the same way that calling an ambulance is a cry for attention. Except with suicide, the sick person may not have the language to articulate his needs, or cannot access the resources to attend his needs.

    There is self-harm that is manifestly not intended to be fatal. But it's better-described as a cry for help. Failure to respond to that call for help is surely where the danger lies.

    I'd be interested in knowing how many suicide victims have a history of self harm that deliberately stopped short of being fatal. I'd say it's fcuking huuge.

    So calling it attention-seeking, although literally correct, is only attention-seeking in the same way as calling 999 after shattering a limb is 'attention-seeking'. You risk minimizing the self-harm and how healthcare professionals might use it as a warning signal in preventing suicide.


    Word.


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    #402
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    Venus In Furs wrote: »
    All these posts from one person about attempted suicides being attention-seeking... looks pretty attention-seeking to me.

    By gyd you are right, the shame of it all, how will I live this shame down best to go and never post again.

    see you space cowboy


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    #403
    Undergod
    Registered Users Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    K4t wrote: »
    There is no other bullying. There is only bullying.

    That's silly.


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    #404
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    conorh91 wrote: »
    Does anyone seriously believe the concerned parents wanted a homophobic bully there to defend homophobic bullying?

    I would assume that is agreed, but as I say I haven't read the (very long) thread entirely.

    I've never heard of any parents who would want to defend bullying of any sort here, but in the US it would not be uncommon to see some parents reacting negatively to any action whatsoever which would be seen as condoning homosexuality - including anti-bullying initiatives.

    E.g. see her regarding response to the Day of Silence event they have in schools to protest homophobic bullying:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_Silence#Opposition

    The see anything which prevents them telling LGBT youth that they will burn in hell as attacking their rights.

    There have also been various attempts to protect the right of "christians" to harass LGBT youths in schools encoded into law - e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stacey_Campfield#.22Classroom_protection.22_bill

    So its not as absurd as we would all like to think


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    #405
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    Why are you trying to downplay the struggles of lgbt youth in ireland? Just because there aren't as widely available irish statistics as there are american ones on the subject doesn't mean the same thing isn't going on here. As an lgbt youth lving in ireland I can tell you life is fcking hard, even if it is 'only' 9% that is still an extraordinarily high number of suicide attempts! if my college class of 80 people were all gay that means approx 8 of them would make 'genuine' attempts to end their life because they're gay, do you not find that incredibly disturbing???:confused:

    IIRC Little CuChulainn opposed legislating for the X Case, I guess that might explain his callousness towards mental health in general.


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    #406
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    You make it sound like 6% isn't a lot

    The point is, we don't know if it is a lot as there is nothing to compare it to.
    bb1234567 wrote: »
    Why are you trying to downplay the struggles of lgbt youth in ireland? Just because there aren't as widely available irish statistics as there are american ones on the subject doesn't mean the same thing isn't going on here. As an lgbt youth lving in ireland I can tell you life is fcking hard, even if it is 'only' 9% that is still an extraordinarily high number of suicide attempts! if my college class of 80 people were all gay that means approx 8 of them would make 'genuine' attempts to end their life because they're gay, do you not find that incredibly disturbing???:confused:

    I'm not trying to downplay anything. I'm asking whether it's necessary to dedicate a workshop solely to lgbt issues or would a more general workshop be just as effective in preventing orientation based bullying and help more people as well.


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    #407
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    The point is, we don't know if it is a lot as there is nothing to compare it to.



    I'm not trying to downplay anything. I'm asking whether it's necessary to dedicate a workshop solely to lgbt issues or would a more general workshop be just as effective in preventing orientation based bullying and help more people as well.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1054139X11000541

    Suicide disproportionately affects LGBT youth. Homophobic bullying is widely recognized by educationalists as being rampant and particularly pernicious (of course not all victims of homophobic bullying are gay).


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    #408
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    The point is, we don't know if it is a lot as there is nothing to compare it to.



    I'm not trying to downplay anything. I'm asking whether it's necessary to dedicate a workshop solely to lgbt issues or would a more general workshop be just as effective in preventing orientation based bullying and help more people as well.
    RCSI study investigated suicide among LGBT students in Ireland, reporting a "Striking" relationship between LGBT status and ill mental health.
    The author; Prof. Cannon concluded from the study “There were high rates of depression and about 50% [of LGBT students] had engaged in an act of deliberate self harm, such as minor cutting and overdoses, compared with less than 20% for the rest [heterosexual students]. It appears if you are of minority sexual orientation you are at a tenfold risk of self-harm behaviours.”
    The Irish National Suicide Research Council had similar findings, reporting that "young people with worries about their sexual orientation and who were bullied had higher rates of self-harm. The disapproval of family members may also be a factor."


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    #409
    Greenmachine
    Registered Users Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Greenmachine


    Just read today on independent.ie that some parents did not want their children to attend the workshop, and the parent were concerned that their children would be victimised for not attending. Oh the irony, raising your kids with bigoted intolerant opinions, and then only expressing concerning when it appear they might be called out for their inappropriate opinions. These are transition year students, at that age, it should, be up to them, to elect whether they want to be there.


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    #410
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    Just read today on independent.ie that some parents did not want their children to attend the workshop, and the parent were concerned that their children would be victimised for not attending. Oh the irony, raising your kids with bigoted intolerant opinions, and then only expressing concerning when it appear they might be called out for their inappropriate opinions. These are transition year students, at that age, it should, be up to them, to elect whether they want to be there.

    Well the biggest victims of homophobia are the homophobes after all.


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    #411
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    Just read today on independent.ie that some parents did not want their children to attend the workshop, and the parent were concerned that their children would be victimised for not attending. Oh the irony, raising your kids with bigoted intolerant opinions, and then only expressing concerning when it appear they might be called out for their inappropriate opinions. These are transition year students, at that age, it should, be up to them, to elect whether they want to be there.
    Bullying of those with homophobic views is just as bad as homophobic bullying. Worse in fact.


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    #412
    Bio Mech
    Registered Users Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭Bio Mech


    K4t wrote: »
    Bullying of those with homophobic views is just as bad as homophobic bullying. Worse in fact.

    I didn't realise bullying had a scale of acceptability.

    So bullying someone with bigoted views is worse than bigots bullying innocent people for having a natural persuasion? How is that?


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    #413
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    K4t wrote: »
    Bullying of those with homophobic views is just as bad as homophobic bullying. Worse in fact.

    Really?


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    #414
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,494 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    K4t wrote: »
    Bullying of those with homophobic views is just as bad as homophobic bullying. Worse in fact.

    thats a joke right


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    #415
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Bio Mech wrote: »
    I didn't realise bullying had a scale of acceptability.
    It doesn't. Bullying is bullying.


    I should have said in my opinion it is worse to bully someone because of their views than to bully someone because of their sexual orientation, especially in a society where said views are in the minority and someone's sexual orientation is generally accepted.


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    #416
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,494 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    K4t wrote: »
    It doesn't. Bullying is bullying.


    I should have said in my opinion it is worse to bully someone because of their views than to bully someone because of their sexual orientation, especially in a society where said views are in the minority and someone's sexual orientation is generally accepted.

    Poor oppressed minority homophobes :( somebody light a candle for them


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    #417
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Bullying someone for the opinions they hold or for expressing their views is a dangerous activity. Bullying someone because of their sexual orientation is just plain idiotic and most intelligent people know that. Both are obviously unacceptable.


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    #418
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,494 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    K4t wrote: »
    Bullying someone for the opinions they hold or for expressing their views is a dangerous activity. Bullying someone because of their sexual orientation is just plain idiotic and most intelligent people know that. Both are obviously unacceptable.

    If I haven't done anything to offend these people, yet they hold a view that Im a lesser person than them before we've even met due to something I cannot control, then why shouldn't I have the right to bully them for their ignorant opinion


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    #419
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    So...... how far back did this thread go off the rails?


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    #420
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,659 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    If I haven't done anything to offend these people, yet they hold a view that Im a lesser person than them before we've even met due to something I cannot control, then why shouldn't I have the right to bully them for their ignorant opinion


    Beautiful. Just beautiful.


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    #421
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    If I haven't done anything to offend these people, yet they hold a view that Im a lesser person than them before we've even met due to something I cannot control, then why shouldn't I have the right to bully them for their ignorant opinion

    Bully them all you like but understand that you are a hypocrite if you also believe homophobic bullying is wrong.


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