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Faith healing church parents charged over toddler's death

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    #32
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    DinoBot wrote: »
    So your saying that the actual object of faith had nothing to do with the healing, a step forward to reality I think.

    No, in this particular case we were discussing a healing that was (sadly temporarily) a result of medical science and human compassion rather than any supernatural miracle. The parents may indeed see these things as answered prayer, but my point was that even the most churlish non-believer should be able to acknowledge that the parents are justified in ascribing praise to Jesus since the medical intervention occurred as the direct result of followers of Jesus obeying his principles and commands.
    If your christian praise Jesus or muslim praise Allah for the healing, not because either actually done anything but simply because the people who helped were of that faith.
    I would be more inclined to say that Jesus did something in the past (teaching, founding the church etc) that made the healing possible. This is similar to blacks in the USA praising Martin Luther King for making possible rights that they enjoy today.
    So, if your child was sick and a Muslims charity group provided money to get a required operation, who would you give the prise to ?
    I would praise God, since I believe God can motivate all kinds of people to be moved to compassionate acts. I would also praise the charitable group for their compassion and for their devotion to their prophet (even though I personally believe him to have been a false prophet). Unlike some others on these boards, I am happy to commend those with different beliefs to mine when their commitment to those beliefs produces positive results.


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    #33
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,235 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    PDN wrote: »

    I would be more inclined to say that Jesus did something in the past (teaching, founding the church etc) that made the healing possible.
    Thats a bit like saying alexander graham bell invented the internet.

    Do you give Jesus the blame when members of his church commit child abuse (or shield known child abusers allowing them to harm many more children or firebomb abortion clinics, or burn non believers and heretics in their houses, or deny contraceptives to women, or take away abused girls or unmarried mothers and then lock them up in a workhouse for the rest of their life for the sin of having premarital sex?

    All of these things were done on the name of christ by followers of christ.
    I would praise God, since I believe God can motivate all kinds of people to be moved to compassionate acts.
    Do you condemn god for motivating people to do evil acts? (even if they are misinterpreting gods will, he did nothing to prevent them, or to clarify his true wishes)


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    #34
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    PDN wrote: »
    my point was that even the most churlish non-believer should be able to acknowledge that the parents are justified in ascribing praise to Jesus since the medical intervention occurred as the direct result of followers of Jesus obeying his principles and commands.

    Take the community in question that helped the sick girl. How, in your opinion, would they have acted in the same situation if they had never heard of the teachings of Jesus?

    If you say that they would have still helped a sick girl get the necessary treatment then Jesus becomes optional to the equation and in my opinion utterly redundent.

    If you say they would have coldly allowed the girl to slowly die then you have a very low opinion of humanity. Even Neanderthals are known to have taken care of the sick and injured members of their community, why should Homo Sapiens be any different?


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    #35
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Nicely put. Also there are plenty of atheists who do good deeds under the assumption that there are no afterlife treats awaiting them. Altruism and a sense of community are the key. Perhaps the path is less important.

    Most people live by atruism A.K.A.-the second commandment. and it is to be commended. Alas, we as a society have forgotten about the first and most important commandment.


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    #36
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Haven't heard of a single verifiable miracle.

    You operate on the basis that there is no such thing as miracles, so how would you verify a miracle? I would bet that even with video evidence and 1,000's of witnesses to a miracle you would not accept it as such.


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    #37
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    . Even Neanderthals are known to have taken care of the sick and injured members of their community, why should Homo Sapiens be any different?

    There is even evidence suggesting that Tyrannosaurus rex took care of injured relatives and T.rex is history's greatest monster! :eek:


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    #38
    Sangre
    Registered Users Posts: 12,152 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    crotalus667 wrote: »
    It will be interesting to see if the law hey are charged with stands up if challenged on constitutional ground ‘s , another thing to ponder is that if someone gives advice that god will heal their child can they be charged in relation to the fact that they gave medical advice with out being entitled to ??
    It should be fine. If not the Courts would be effectively saying the right to freedom of religious practice takes precedent over the right to life and bodily integrity.


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    #39
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    PDN wrote: »
    but my point was that even the most churlish non-believer should be able to acknowledge that the parents are justified in ascribing praise to Jesus since the medical intervention occurred as the direct result of followers of Jesus obeying his principles and commands.

    Actually the medical intervention was a direct result of the doctors being able to do the surgery. The Christian community could have collected as much money as they wanted, but if there was no doctors then there would have been no surgery.
    Splendour wrote:
    Most people live by atruism A.K.A.-the second commandment. and it is to be commended. Alas, we as a society have forgotten about the first and most important commandment.
    Isn't the second commandment "Thou shalt have no false gods before me"? Do you have a different set of commandments? Whats the first?


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    #40
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Actually the medical intervention was a direct result of the doctors being able to do the surgery. The Christian community could have collected as much money as they wanted, but if there was no doctors then there would have been no surgery.
    And, by the same reasoning, if I give my daughter a laptop computer for Christmas she shouldn't thank me because I'm only the guy who paid for it. She should thank Dell who were good and kind enough to make the computer for her.
    Isn't the second commandment "Thou shalt have no false gods before me"? Do you have a different set of commandments? Whats the first?

    You are thinking of the 10 commandments in the Old Testament - although you've listed the first commandment instead of the second. The second is a prohibition against making graven images.

    Splendour is referring to the incident when Jesus was asked what was the greatest commandment.

    One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
    "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:28-31)


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    #41
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,235 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    You operate on the basis that there is no such thing as miracles, so how would you verify a miracle? I would bet that even with video evidence and 1,000's of witnesses to a miracle you would not accept it as such.

    All I want is for people who make the claim that there are miracles to defend those claims.


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    #42
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    You operate on the basis that there is no such thing as miracles, so how would you verify a miracle?
    The same way you verify anything else. All science works on the basis that a theory of something is inaccurate unless it is demonstrated otherwise. If something happens and you cry "Miracle", it should be assume that such a theory is inaccurate to the point of being wrong until reason is found otherwise.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I would bet that even with video evidence and 1,000's of witnesses to a miracle you would not accept it as such.

    A video and 1,000 witnesses wouldn't alone demonstrate something as a miracle, any more than a million people watching something been thrown out of a window verifies any guess over who in the room threw it over any other guess.


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    #43
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    PDN wrote: »
    And, by the same reasoning, if I give my daughter a laptop computer for Christmas she shouldn't thank me because I'm only the guy who paid for it. She should thank Dell who were good and kind enough to make the computer for her.

    No, read my sentence again. By my reasoning you could have given Dell as much money as you wanted, if they didn't make laptops then you wouldn't have been able to give one to your daughter. Besides your daughter would thank you for buying the laptop not making it, the parents of the girl should have thanked the people who gave them the money.


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    #44
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    I've been saying this for ages, even if miracles are real then they are a bad thing.

    Assuming for a minute that some claims are real most certainly arent so immediately more faith is placed in miracles than there should be. In turn they inspire sad unnecessary events like this threads topic. It also gives a market for all the fakes that span the globe. How many people have suffered the trip to lourdes instead of getting the medical attention that they need?

    Whatever way you look at it the negatives outweigh the positives.


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    #45
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Galvasean wrote: »
    There is even evidence suggesting that Tyrannosaurus rex took care of injured relatives and T.rex is history's greatest monster! :eek:

    Pre-history's greatest monster! History's greatest monster is that evil teenager from Coronation Street.


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