What do teachers do when schools are off?

Iwasfrozen · 14-08-2014 11:17pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I'm not dying the ages are peanuts? At the moment.
If your ideas and policies were implemented, that's they way it would go, just like the in the uk where 1 in 3 teachers has left the profession within 3-5 years

8 weeks more work for the same pay?

23.8% more working days and nothing for it?

That's just completely unreasonable

Well yes, it's more work with no pay because frankly teachers are overpaid compared to jobs of equivalent skill/education level in the private sector. And that's before you take into consideration teachers only work 75% of the year.

The idea of keeping wages the same but cutting holidays by two months is to get more productivity out of them for the same cost. Students will benefit from two more months of school, especially 6th years.

I understand teachers have been hit a lot but you have to understand teachers are still overpaid relative to professionals in the private sector, working two more months will help address this imbalance.

poolsandles · 14-08-2014 11:17pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Frankly though I'd rather keep wages at the same level and cut summer holidays down to one month.

Why should the summer holidays be cut to one month?

evolving_doors · 14-08-2014 11:19pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Teachers do nothing over the summer holidays so they should be paid nothing. A 20% pay cut would be a good start.

ya sure id agree to a 20% cut on nothing...

I get paid for 167 days a year.. those days I dont work I don't get paid.

Maybe you should get a bazzillion% pay cut on the weekends you dont work!

Talib Fiasco · 14-08-2014 11:21pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well yes, it's more work with no pay because frankly teachers are overpaid compared to jobs of equivalent skill/education level in the private sector. And that's before you take into consideration teachers only work 75% of the year.

The idea of keeping wages the same but cutting holidays by two months is to get more productivity out of them for the same cost. Students will benefit from two more months of school, especially 6th years.

I understand teachers have been hit a lot but you have to understand teachers are still overpaid relative to professionals in the private sector, working two more months will help address this imbalance.

What jobs happen to have the equivalent skills as a teacher? It's as unique a job as any. You either can teach or you can't.

evolving_doors · 14-08-2014 11:22pm

thesimpsons wrote: »

the reason you do that is because you are a person who cares not because you are a teacher. don't confuse the two. many hundreds of people volunteer to run sports teams, guides, social clubs for children or young teen after they have completed a day's work (usually until 5 or 6pm), grab quick tea/dinner and head out to the activities.

Aye but try doing that voluntary work before, after and during your working day.

mirrorwall14 · 14-08-2014 11:23pm

Ireland already have one of the highest class contact hours in the OECD. In practical terms that means that we are actually working more than teachers in other countries. So we may have long holidays compared to them but we already work more than them within our working days even with the extra hold.

Iwasfrozen · 14-08-2014 11:24pm

Armelodie wrote: »

ya sure id agree to a 20% cut on nothing...

I get paid for 167 days a year.. those days I dont work I don't get paid.

Maybe you should get a bazzillion% pay cut on the weekends you dont work!

And that's why teachers are overpaid, they get 30-60k and only work 75% of the year.

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

What jobs happen to have the equivalent skills as a teacher? It's as unique a job as any. You either can teach or you can't.

Equivalent education level would be a better explanation.

poolsandles wrote: »

Why should the summer holidays be cut to one month?

Because it would benefit students and parents.

Inspector Coptoor · 14-08-2014 11:26pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well yes, it's more work with no pay because frankly teachers are overpaid compared to jobs of equivalent skill/education level in the private sector. And that's before you take into consideration teachers only work 75% of the year.

The idea of keeping wages the same but cutting holidays by two months is to get more productivity out of them for the same cost. Students will benefit from two more months of school, especially 6th years.

I understand teachers have been hit a lot but you have to understand teachers are still overpaid relative to professionals in the private sector, working two more months will help address this imbalance.

So when will 6th years do their exams?
Who will correct these exams if the correctors, ie teachers, are still working their day jobs and unable to take up contractual roles as examiners for the sec?

Who are you to say that 2 months more work would "help address this imbalance?"
Any research to substantiate this claim or are you simply pulling figures from your hole?

You claim to understand teachers have been a hit a lot, why kick a group of people when they are down?
How many teachers have mortgages based on the wages they were earning before the 24% pay cuts and are struggling to to make ends meet and you either want them to take a 20% pay cut or do 20% more work for no pay?

If you read the terms of the Haddington road agreement and look at how much extra work we are already doing, you might just become more aware of the situation.

It is NOT a 9-3:30 job and with all parent teacher meetings taking place outside school hours and all of the extra meetings, substitution and supervision, we are working an extra 4 weeks already.

poolsandles · 14-08-2014 11:26pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The idea of keeping wages the same but cutting holidays by two months is to get more productivity out of them for the same cost. Students will benefit from two more months of school, especially 6th years.

You are thinking of schools as businesses. They are not businesses where productivity needs to be increased. You are dealing with children, who have a wide range of issues and every one of them is different. Schools cannot be run as businesses for that reason.

Certainly not at primary level I think reducing the holidays to one month would have no benefit at all. Pupils need that time off to relax, unwind and spend time with their families. During this time they get opportunities to develop life skills and social skills that they cannot do at school.

As for it benefiting parents, schools are there to educate children, not raise them. In my experience most parents don't have an issue with the length of the summer holidays. The ones that do are the ones that have no interest in their child's education anyway, are unsupportive, late collecting their child but the first to drop their child off etc. Heaven forbid when the summer holidays come they might actually have to spend some time with their children.

I don't get paid for any of the holidays just so you know. There is a substantial amount of teachers that don't.

spurious · 14-08-2014 11:27pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And that's why teachers are overpaid, they get 30-60k and only work 75% of the year.

They get paid for the '75%' of the year over the full year. Not sure why this concept is so hard for some to grasp.

Inspector Coptoor · 14-08-2014 11:28pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And that's why teachers are overpaid, they get 30-60k and only work 75% of the year.

Equivalent education level would be a better explanation.

Because it would benefit students and parents.

Are teachers not also parents?
How would it benefit them?

How would it benefit non teacher parents?

Children need a childhood.
11 months a year in school is a terrible idea and would lead to a decrease in productivity levels in both students and teachers

evolving_doors · 14-08-2014 11:28pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well yes, it's more work with no pay because frankly teachers are overpaid compared to jobs of equivalent skill/education level in the private sector. And that's before you take into consideration teachers only work 75% of the year.

The idea of keeping wages the same but cutting holidays by two months is to get more productivity out of them for the same cost. Students will benefit from two more months of school, especially 6th years.

I understand teachers have been hit a lot but you have to understand teachers are still overpaid relative to professionals in the private sector, working two more months will help address this imbalance.

Go on so fella name the job that matches it in the almighty private sector...

Btw 4yrs degree+year hdip (now 2)+ 2yrs part time masters ...

Even nurses and guards get paid during their training..did they have to beg for a few scraps of hours when they graduated?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-08-2014 11:32pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Teachers do nothing over the summer holidays so they should be paid nothing. A 20% pay cut would be a good start.

You suggested this on a different thread: I pointed out that it would lead to good teachers going into different fields nad others pointed out the problems of teachers haveing to either relocate or take higher paid jobs for the summer and then not bothering to going back into teaching.

I don;t remember you solutions to these potential problems..?

Iwasfrozen · 14-08-2014 11:32pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

So when will 6th years do their exams?
Who will correct these exams if the correctors, ie teachers, are still working their day jobs and unable to take up contractual roles as examiners for the sec?

Who are you to say that 2 months more work would "help address this imbalance?"
Any research to substantiate this claim or are you simply pulling figures from your hole?

You claim to understand teachers have been a hit a lot, why kick a group of people when they are down?
How many teachers have mortgages based on the wages they were earning before the 24% pay cuts and are struggling to to make ends meet and you either want them to take a 20% pay cut or do 20% more work for no pay?

If you read the terms of the Haddington road agreement and look at how much extra work we are already doing, you might just become more aware of the situation.

It is NOT a 9-3:30 job and with all parent teacher meetings taking place outside school hours and all of the extra meetings, substitution and supervision, we are working an extra 4 weeks already.

I'm aware of the Haddington road agreement, in university I stayed in diggs with to teachers so I know quite a lot about it. That doesn't change the reality that compared to other professionals teachers are overpaid and underworked.

Working two more months wouldn't affect a teacher's mortgage, of course teachers aren't going to support working two more months but if the government decided to do this they'd just have to roll with it, simple as that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You suggested this on a different thread: I pointed out that it would lead to good teachers going into different fields nad others pointed out the problems of teachers haveing to either relocate or take higher paid jobs for the summer and then not bothering to going back into teaching.

I don;t remember you solutions to these potential problems..?

If highly skilled teachers feel the need to move to another section then that is of course their choice but teachers shouldn't be keep 3 month long paid holidays just to keep them. Most teachers won't leave, it's very hard to reskill in another area when you've spent your whole professional career as a teacher. There are barriers to entry in other professions that will stop teachers jumping ship.

Armelodie wrote: »

Go on so fella name the job that matches it in the almighty private sector...

Btw 4yrs degree+year hdip (now 2)+ 2yrs part time masters ...

Even nurses and guards get paid during their training..did they have to beg for a few scraps of hours when they graduated?

I think you mean 3 years degree + 2 years masters, and last year it was 3 years degree + 1 year H Dip.

evolving_doors · 14-08-2014 11:32pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Are teachers not also parents?
How would it benefit them?

How would it benefit non teacher parents?

Children need a childhood.
11 months a year in school is a terrible idea and would lead to a decrease in productivity levels in both students and teachers

maybe he's suggesting we work through more of the holidays but have a shorter working day like other European schools... !

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-08-2014 11:36pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm aware of the Haddington road agreement, in university I stayed in diggs with to teachers so I know quite a lot about it. That doesn't change the reality that compared to other professionals teachers are overpaid and underworked.

Working two more months wouldn't affect a teacher's mortgage, of course teachers aren't going to support working two more months but if the government decided to do this they'd just have to roll with it, simple as that.

If highly skilled teachers feel the need to move to another section then that is of course their choice but teachers shouldn't be keep 3 month long paid holidays just to keep them. Most teachers won't leave, it's very hard to reskill in another area when you've spent your whole professional career as a teacher. There are barriers to entry in other professions that will stop teachers jumping ship.

Exactly how many hours a work does a teacher do a week? In school time and say, the last week in August?

Inspector Coptoor · 14-08-2014 11:36pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm aware of the Haddington road agreement, in university I stayed in diggs with to teachers so I know quite a lot about it. That doesn't change the reality that compared to other professionals teachers are overpaid and underworked.

Working two more months wouldn't affect a teacher's mortgage, of course teachers aren't going to support working two more months but if the government decided to do this they'd just have to roll with it, simple as that.

How are you measuring:
1. That we're overpaid?
What's the comparative job in your beloved private sector?
Where in the private sector does an employee act as an educator, counsellor, coach, mentor, parent (as in we are in loco parentis) and role model all in the same role?

2. That we are underworked?
Are you measuring this simply based on number of hours and days worked?
Does quality have no bearing over quantity with you?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-08-2014 11:38pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If highly skilled teachers feel the need to move to another section then that is of course their choice but teachers shouldn't be keep 3 month long paid holidays just to keep them. Most teachers won't leave, it's very hard to reskill in another area when you've spent your whole professional career as a teacher. There are barriers to entry in other professions that will stop teachers jumping ship.

1) Then there will be as shortage of teachers, and 2) A large proportion of teachers are young enough to do something else.

You really, genuinely, don't see any consequences whatsoever of this idea, do you?

evolving_doors · 14-08-2014 11:40pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm aware of the Haddington road agreement, in university I stayed in diggs with to teachers so I know quite a lot about it. _That doesn't change the reality that compared to other professionals teachers are overpaid and underworked.

Working two more months wouldn't affect a teacher's mortgage, of course teachers aren't going to support working two more months but if the government decided to do this they'd just have to roll with it, simple as that.

Could you provide a link to this reality you speak of? ..oh sorry, you can't get a web address to someones jealous fantasy...

what are these other professions you speak of?

Come to think of it whats your own ' profession' ? lets compare shall we..i could be an expert too as I once went to college with other humans.

Talib Fiasco · 14-08-2014 11:41pm

It's clear Iwasfrozen's brain hasn't thawed out yet.

Iwasfrozen · 14-08-2014 11:42pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

How are you measuring:
1. That we're overpaid?
What's the comparative job in your beloved private sector?
Where in the private sector does an employee act as an educator, counsellor, coach, mentor, parent (as in we are in loco parentis) and role model all in the same role?

2. That we are underworked?
Are you measuring this simply based on number of hours and days worked?
Does quality have no bearing over quantity with you?

To be honest I don't really have a problem with the wages, yes you are overpaid compared to say an accountant who has had to pass waaay more exams than you, were teachers to work 2 more months it would help address that imbalance but it would also help parents with thie costs of childcare and the child themselves as the ciriculum would be expanded by 1/6.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-08-2014 11:44pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To be honest I don't really have a problem with the wages, yes you are overpaid compared to say an accountant who has had to pass waaay more exams than you, were teachers to work 2 more months it would help address that imbalance but it would also help parents with thie costs of childcare and the child themselves as the ciriculum would be expanded by 1/6.

... and yet you're advocating a 20% cut?

Also, in addition to telling me how many hours you think a teacher works, can you tell me how many exams a teacher has to pass?

poolsandles · 14-08-2014 11:45pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

T it would also help parents with thie costs of childcare and the child themselves as the ciriculum would be expanded by 1/6.

As I said in my earlier post, this is a terrible idea. Schools are there to educate children, not raise them. The curriculum is already overloaded as it is.

Talib Fiasco · 14-08-2014 11:45pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To be honest I don't really have a problem with the wages, yes you are overpaid compared to say an accountant who has had to pass waaay more exams than you, were teachers to work 2 more months it would help address that imbalance but it would also help parents with thie costs of childcare and the child themselves as the ciriculum would be expanded by 1/6.

My brother is almost a qualified accountant. I'm a student teacher. By the time he's 30 he'll probably have earned more money than I will as a teacher in my entire lifetime.

evolving_doors · 15-08-2014 12:08am

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

My brother is almost a qualified accountant. I'm a student teacher. By the time he's 30 he'll probably have earned more money than I will as a teacher in my entire lifetime.

Oh but he'll have done wauyyyy more exams than you don't you know.

I bet when your brother starts working his boss doesn't say "shur I'll give you 8hrs a week and you should be glad of that, and good luck to ya next year... cutbacks and all that, you understand"...

Maybe it would comfort iwasfrozen to know that theres a school in Emyvale, Co Monaghan offering a full time teaching position as part of jobbridge... who's overpaid now eh! !

Hotfail.com · 15-08-2014 12:59am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And that's why teachers are overpaid, they get 30-60k and only work 75% of the year.

Why does if matter how many days they work? They provide a valuable service to society, and most of them are decent, hard-working people. If they do their job the way they should then they deserve their pay, and in fairness the vast majority of them do.

They don't get paid for their holidays btw.

shruikan2553 · 15-08-2014 1:09am

So the idea is to make teaching a job where you become unemployed for awhile every year. Who would go into teaching then?

evolving_doors · 15-08-2014 10:59am

shruikan2553 wrote: »

So the idea is to make teaching a job where you become unemployed for awhile every year. Who would go into teaching then?

Thats not the point .... the point is it would make him feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside if he knew teachers and students were in school more. Then he could go back to complaining about children eating ice cream and sunny weather.

evolving_doors · 16-08-2014 5:24pm

And so my dear friends, that was our quarterly session of "teachers grrrrrr I went to school and I would have gotten away with it Too if it weren't for those pesky teachers".

Any more questions before the bell rings?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-08-2014 10:08pm

Armelodie wrote: »

And so my dear friends, that was our quarterly session of "teachers grrrrrr I went to school and I would have gotten away with it Too if it weren't for those pesky teachers".

Any more questions before the bell rings?

No, just the ones I asking Iwasfrozen, but I have a feeling he's bunking off.

What do teachers do when schools are off?

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