Irish soldiers in WW1

jos28 · 08-10-2011 7:17pm

Thanks Johnny, apologies for duplicating posts but I suppose I am anxious to find any scraps of information about my Grandad. He is the one person in family tree that I would love to have met. My Dad has passed on too and although we often spoke about his Dad, I am annoyed that I didn't get more information out of him.
I have no idea where William's medal are. He spent the remainder of his life in Dagenham working for Ford. I don't know if he came home for any length of time after the war. My Grandad went back to Tralee but could not stay there because he married a woman who was in Cumann na mBán. Her family were none too happy so my Grandparents moved to Dublin.
Just wondering about William's photo and what he was doing in Wales ? Might have been taken on the way to or from Holyhead ?

johnny_doyle · 09-10-2011 7:25pm

no prob re multiple posts - IMO it's one of the best ways to get info as different people look at the issue at different times and bring different data sources etc.

Pontypridd is South Wales and more on the route to Fishguard/Swansea rather than Holyhead. Even then, it's not a stop you would necessarily think about if doing London to Fishguard/Swansea so possibly some other reason he was there for the photo.

Have you got the baptism records for Bartholomew, William and their sister from the irishgenealogy.ie website?

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/df201e0494318

Ford seems to be celebrating it's history at the moment and it might be worth contacting them to see if they have any employment records that they would release.

http://www.ford.co.uk/AboutFord/News/CompanyNews/Image-of-the-week-39

I've delved a bit more into the service records on Ancestry but still not finding anything to identify your William Glover.

jos28 · 09-10-2011 7:58pm

Thanks again Johnny,
I have the details for William, Bart and Julia, thanks.
Must have been a woman that brought William to Wales

Thanks for the link to Ford, I will definitely drop them an email.
Cheers

pedroeibar1 · 10-10-2011 10:27am

I would be pleased if the experts here could throw some light on why a relative of mine, a Corkman living in England, would join a Canadian Regiment during WWI. Why not the Munster Fusileers or any of the other Irish regiments?
He was Patrick Kelly, service medal 24955, who joined the 13th Bn., Canadian Infantry (Quebec Regt.). He died on Saturday, 24th April 1915. I have bits of family lore, one that he was gassed, which, coupled with his date of death fits the Second Battle of Ypres in April 1915, when the German Army used chlorine gas for the first time and the Canadians held their line at great cost.

Thanks,
P.

enfield · 10-10-2011 10:34am

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc008/433744a.gif&id_nbr=497086

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc008/433744b.gif&id_nbr=497086

pedroeibar1 · 10-10-2011 12:03pm

Enfield, that was most kind of you. Complete surprise that he had prior service in the Irish Guards and that he enlisted in Canada! He had a reputation in the family as being 'a bit wild' and left home very young. (His family was not the type to have gone in for tatoos!:D )
Many thanks,
P.

who the fug · 10-10-2011 1:14pm

Just a general question

Was it normal for British officer to be court martialed when on returning from a POW CAMP?

johnny_doyle · 10-10-2011 10:04pm

it was normal for British officers released from captivity to write a report giving details of their capture for consideration "of exoneration for responsibility of capture".

An officers medal card might contain text such as "exonerated Officer's list" giving an indication that he spent time as a PoW and not to blame for his capture.

The UK National Archives now has some prisoner of war interview records available for search/download

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=20&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1

Some stats on court martials during and after WW1 can be found here

http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/all.htm

who the fug · 11-10-2011 10:10am

johnny_doyle wrote: »

it was normal for British officers released from captivity to write a report giving details of their capture for consideration "of exoneration for responsibility of capture".

An officers medal card might contain text such as "exonerated Officer's list" giving an indication that he spent time as a PoW and not to blame for his capture.

The UK National Archives now has some prisoner of war interview records available for search/download

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=20&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1

Some stats on court martials during and after WW1 can be found here

http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/all.htm

thanks

From what I remember of the documents this was an offical court martial , must dig out his service records

jameswburke · 19-10-2011 10:58pm

jameswburke wrote: »

Appeal for information from Co. Kilkenny, Ireland

Kilkenny Photographic Society have assembled a touring exhibition on the theme of Kilkenny and the Great War 1914-18. We have a list of 467 men known to have been killed in the war and our exhibition features some of them, along with family photos kindly shown to us by living descendants. We also have a YouTube movie of the list, set to music of the time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH4fe8JOlRU

We would like any families willing to participate in our exhibition (Kilkenny only) to contact us. The exhibition will be shown in November 2011 at the County Buildings, John Street. Details can be left there too.

Finally, we have discovered a VC winner, Frederick W Hall, who emigrated to Canada and joined up there. He was killed at Ypres in 1915 whilst trying to rescue a wounded colleague. For this he received a VC. There is info on the Canadian Veteran's website but we would like to trace his birthplace in Co Kilkenny so any help would be greatly appreciated. James Burke Mob: 086 8197455

I have put together what we know so far about FW Hall VC into a YouTube video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRIENqeJ1i4

delbean · 14-11-2011 2:36pm

Regarding The Royal Engineers in Ireland.
The Royal Engineers were responsible for the Telegraph Lines in Ireland for some time before the First World War.My grandfather was a linesman prior to the war.He enlisted in the British Army after John Redmonds call.My grandfather joined the army I presume in Dublin.( He lived in Arklow).Whatever regiment he joined he was spotted by an Officer in the R.E. who told him they needed skilled men like him in the Engineers and got him transferred.He served in France and I know he was gassed at Arras.He survived this but it affected his breathing.I am trying to find what areas he served in.I have his medals and a copy of his medal roll.If anyone can help me or point me in the right direction it would be great.
His name is John w Smith Sapper 259720 .He was born on the 3rd of Jan 1890 in Arklow Co Wicklow.He got the Victory and British medal.
The Roll RE/101 B 132 and page 29207 (or 292117) is written on it.I would like to know are these refering to the medals or are they the Battalions he was in.I would love to find out more.
Thanks

R.Dub.Fusilier · 15-11-2011 11:38pm

i had a look on ancestry at service and pension records but could not find anything , John Smith is probably the hardest name to research , but maybe someone else might be able to help. i know you have his medal card but i have attached the colour one in case you dont have it.

johnny_doyle · 16-11-2011 8:35am

for an overview of the WW1 campaign medals, the National Archives page is good

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp

Like RDF, I can't find any more info re John W Smith. Would have expected to possibly see a pension record or a Silver War Badge if discharged before the end of WW1.

I have 2 Gt Grandfathers who served in the RE during WW1. Joe Niland from Dublin who was killed in 1917. Able to find out a bit about him because there are death records, a gravestone etc. John Shepley from Wheelock in Cheshire survived (but died in 1943 as a result of wounds received in November 1918 according to his death certificate). I've not been able to find out what unit he was with despite several years of ferreting thru records.

delbean · 16-11-2011 12:26pm

Thanks to R.Dub.Fusillier and Johnny Doyle for your help.
I found out that my grandfather was in the 34th Division Signal Company Royal Engineers.They arrived in France in Jan 1916 therefore missing out on the 14/15 star by a few weeks.
On the medal roll it has something written in the remarks that looks like 30/1/03 does anyone know what this means?
Thanks for your help

johnny_doyle · 16-11-2011 7:48pm

Delbean, where/how did you find he was in the 34th Division Signal Company?

He would have been near to my Gt Grandfather Joe Niland in the run up to the Somme. 179 Tunnelling Company were busy digging the mines that resulted in the Lochanagar and Y Sap Craters which were in the 34th Division area.

One of the Division signallers :

http://www.richardvanemden.com/thomas-dewing.html

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80018218

and some threads from the GWF (the latter one with a unit photo)

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=52165

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97473

delbean · 16-11-2011 10:59pm

Thanks for that Johnny
I am registered with the greatwarforum but have problems opening the photos etc.
I sent an e-mail to the guy who runs the site www.reubique.com which is dedicated to the Engineers.I gave him my Grandfathers details and he was able to tell me that he was in the 34th signals.He also sent me a list of the areas he was in.If you send your grandfathers details and no to him he will do the same for you.I said in earlier post my grandfather was gassed at Arras he was not discharged and finished the war.Obviously he did not suffer the full effects but it was enough to trouble him in later life.He still had a long life dying on the 22nd Jan 1978.
Regards

johnny_doyle · 16-11-2011 11:15pm

thanks for that DelBean. Not I site I know of but will give it a try re John Shepley's unit.

delbean · 17-11-2011 3:43pm

Johnny
I have found a Joseph Niland in Dublin 1911 Census he was 38 living in Summerhill Mountjoy Dublin Wife Jane 32 Ellen 4 and Mary anne 3. look up www.census.nationalarchives.ie the 1901 census is also on line. Dublin church records are on line as well www.irishgenealogy.ie hope these are of use .If you need help just ask.
Regards

johnny_doyle · 17-11-2011 7:49pm

thanks DelBean. I've most of Joe's info already plus a few other relations in Dublin/Wexford as well as the wife's in Dublin/Tipp/Cork/Limerick. Joe's father Hugh was with the 2nd Bombay Regiment of European Infantry 1854-59 at the time of the Indian Mutiny, flitted to Canada/USA during the US Civil War (not sure if he fought) and then back to Ireland where he married/settled. I tried a while back to see if there were any links between my Niland's and the Niland brothers who were the backdrop to Saving Private Ryan but nothing so far.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Niland&GSfn=Joseph&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=12481935&df=all&

My cousin Ramon was on the radio a short while ago being interviewed by Ryan Tubridy. Ryan's grandfather Christopher Andrews was a neighbour of Joe Niland's in Summerhill.

enfield · 17-11-2011 9:17pm

Just a stab in the dark here...would the name also be spelled Nealon or Neilon?
Cheers.
Tom.

delbean · 17-11-2011 11:26pm

Joe must have had family working in Guinness if he got a job there .I would say they have records for him.I will ask a friend of mine who has retired from Guinness.He is big into genealogy and would like to help.I liked the job you done on his memorial.
Regards

enfield · 17-11-2011 11:39pm

Enjoy.
http://www.guinness-storehouse.com/en/GenealogySearch.aspx

johnny_doyle · 18-11-2011 12:28am

the name has been spelt several different ways in birth, marriage and death certs (Nilan, Neilan, Neyland, etc). I believe it originated from Co Mayo/Galway/Clare. The Niland's from Tonawanda (Saving Private Ryan) are from Co Mayo. One of Joe Niland's medal index cards is recorded as Miland. One of my "people of interest" from the Easter Rising is Lt Gerald Neilan and his rebel brother Anthony because it's a spelling variation (and because he and his family were living in Harold's Cross)

I was at the Guinness archives several years ago and have Joe and his family records from there. The archivist Eibhlin Roche is a great help for anyone researching Guinness family ties. I have a connection to her on LinkedIn.

Both of Joe's sons worked at Guinness. Joe Niland junior worked there till his death in 1966. Edward Niland worked there for a short time on and off. Australian author D'Arcy Niland and his wife made a journey from Australia some time ago (late 1950's?) and made the connection to the family via the Guinness archives/meeting Joe/Edward - his Gt Grandfather had been a cooper at Guinness and emigrated to Oz in 1841. UCD has the coopers guild archives which is where I got the info re Hugh Niland flitting to Canada/US. The British Library had Hugh Niland's discharge papers from the Honourable East India Company (of which the 2nd Bombay Regt was a part) which had his occupation as a cooper before enlistment. Hugh had 2 other sons, Hugh and John, both coopers who spent some time at Guinness.

My other RE Gt Grandfather John Shepley was married in Dublin (no idea why he was there but suspect it was to do with the railways) to Jane Maria McCullen from Portaferry. Didn't find their marriage records on the irishgenealogy website but did find her parents marriage

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/3f456b0541670

R.Dub.Fusilier · 18-11-2011 1:39am

JD i was in Glasnevin cemetry recently and got this pic of Lt Gerald Neilans grave. his brother is buried in the same plot. sorry the pic of the head stone is not great as there is a big shrub on it that i had to hold back so i could get the picture.

johnny_doyle · 18-11-2011 8:26am

thanks very much for this RDF. Would you have any objection to my adding these images to his Findagrave entry?

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=neilan&GSfn=gerald&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=37603704&df=all&

There was a thread on Rootschat re Gerald and family a while back

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,407796.10.html

and Corisande has put some info online

http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/battaliions/10-batt/officers/neilan/family/neilan-family.html

The photo of the gravestone confirms that the brother Leo died young.

enfield · 18-11-2011 11:00am

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=164888&pid=1603407&st=0&#entry1603407

enfield · 18-11-2011 11:03am

G A Neilan

delbean · 18-11-2011 11:39am

Johnny
It seems you have a lot of info and know all the routes.My friend got this item from Guinness hope it is new for you
Regards

johnny_doyle · 18-11-2011 6:41pm

enfield wrote: »

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=164888&pid=1603407&st=0&#entry1603407

forgot about that thread.

My signature on the GWF lists most of my WW1 family links. A strange collection of regiments.

johnny_doyle · 18-11-2011 6:50pm

delbean wrote: »

Johnny
It seems you have a lot of info and know all the routes.My friend got this item from Guinness hope it is new for you
Regards

thanks DelBean. Yes, I have a copy of that document.

The Guinness records gives a brief description their accommodation in Summerhill, some details re the kids and there is a letter from Jane trying to get the boys into Guinness. Jane Niland and the 4 kids moved to Mountain View Avenue, Harold's Cross from Summerhill in the late 1920's early 1930's.

R.Dub.Fusilier · 18-11-2011 6:50pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

thanks very much for this RDF. Would you have any objection to my adding these images to his Findagrave entry?

your welcome JD, you help out pleanty of people here. use the photos in what ever way you want, just sorry the photo is not that great.

johnny_doyle · 18-11-2011 9:09pm

thanks RDF. I've added the gravestone photo. Will leave the medal card for the moment as the National Archives might get a bit stroppy.

johnny_doyle · 18-11-2011 9:50pm

prompted by the recent discussion I decided to have a quick search for Hugh Niland in the US again and found him in the US Navy in 1862!!

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-14750-2929-35?cc=1825347

P. Breathnach · 19-11-2011 1:05am

I hope people don't mind my coming in here with a request for help. Herself is stuck in her efforts to get at an ancestor's service record, and we have people in this thread who seem to know their way around.

Can anybody help with Joseph M. O'Brien, born to a service family in Malta about 30/7/1894 (for some purposes, he seems to have claimed to have been born in Dublin). Educated in the Royal Hibernian Military School, he left on 30/8/1911 to enlist in the 2nd Liverpool Regiment. It seems that he served for 8 years and 6 months, obviously including the entire period of the 1914-18 war. Family tradition has it that he was wounded, and ended up with a steel plate in his head.

She can find nothing about his life between enlistment and discharge. Can any of the cognoscenti here come up with anything?

johnny_doyle · 19-11-2011 9:27am

does your wife have any of his medals to confirm serial number/regiment?

There is a medal card for a Joseph M O'Brien, Liverpool Regt number 11153. Entered theatre 5 G(1) - Indian Frontier - April 1915. Awarded 1915 Star, BWM and Victory Medal as well as the Indian General Service Afghanistan/North West Frontier medal.

The Long, Long Trail indicates that the 2nD Liverpool were in India throughout the war.
http://www.1914-1918.net/kings.htm

A Joseph O'Brien born Malta approx 1895 shows up on the 1901 Guernsey census.

1911 census he (or someone on his behalf) does appear to have put his birthplace down as Malta.

P. Breathnach · 19-11-2011 6:35pm

Thanks, Johnny.

The personal stuff - medals, documents, and the like - are long lost. This is a mystery man, and Herself is trying to fill in a big gap in the family history.

She had found that the 2nd Liverpool were Peshawar at the outbreak of the war, and that the regiment stayed in India throughout the war. She does not know what the likelihood is of an individual soldier remaining with the regiment. Might some of the more experienced troops, professional soldiers such as he was, have been transferred to other units? Or was there enough action on the NW frontier to keep the battalion fully committed?

If the medal record is for the same individual, which seems likely, does that set of medals suggest that he might not have seen action in Europe?

We wonder about the veracity of the family tradition that he had a steel plate in his head as the result of war wounds. Is there a medal equivalent to the US Purple Heart that tells that a person was wounded in action?

You have the right person in the 1901 and 1911 census returns. Military families moved about a lot.

P. Breathnach · 20-11-2011 12:44am

A bit of digging has given me this:
The 2nd Battalion of the King's Liverpool Regiment was posted to Peshawar in August 1914.
They saw action against local Muslim forces in April and August 1915 which qualified for the 1915 Star, the British War Medal, and the Victory Medal.
They took part in the third Afghan War in 1919 which qualified for the Indian General Service Afgh/NWF medal.
So it looks as if the Joseph M. O'Brien whose medal record includes that set was in India throughout the 1914-18 war and a bit beyond.

Herself's ancestor served from 30/8/1911 to about February 1920. She has a fix on him in Dublin in late 1920 as an ex-soldier.

There is certainly no conflict between the two sets of data. It looks like a nearly-there situation. If we can tie something further to the service number, we might have a clincher.

johnny_doyle · 20-11-2011 12:05pm

on the Liverpool Museum database he is listed as a Lance Corporal.

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/kingsreg/index.aspx

O'BRIEN JM JOSEPH L CORPORAL 11153

A newspaper report suggests that the 2nd Liverpools move to Peshawar in February 1913.

http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Article/singfreepressb19130219.2.13.aspx

As a co-incidence, Simon Jones who has help me with information re 179th Tunnelling Company, RE, was curator of the Liverpool (Kings) Regiment Museum and I think was involved in the database mentioned above.

P. Breathnach · 20-11-2011 2:10pm

Thanks, again, Johnny (from Herself as well as from me).

The database is particularly helpful. Herself had discovered that there were medal records for three J O'Briens in the Liverpools during the 1914-18 period. One died in action, so is not her ancestral one. The medal records did not give a middle name or initial for another, but the database index does (JA) so he can now be ruled out. That leaves just the one. So she has recategorised the person we are looking at from probable to just about certain.

arnhem44 · 20-11-2011 2:47pm

The service number 11153 would most likely of enlisted in the summer months of 1911.According to the Army Service Numbers website the number 11102 joined on 15th March 1911 and 11226 joined on 12th February 1912,these are taken from the 1st and 2nd battalion Liverpool Regiment so the Joseph M O'Brien Johnny has listed would be bang on.

P. Breathnach · 20-11-2011 3:54pm

It's all coming together very neatly.

Thanks from Herself and from me.

johnny_doyle · 20-11-2011 6:11pm

it's a great pity there doesn't appear to be a service record or pension record left to confirm his service.

P. Breathnach · 20-11-2011 6:22pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

it's a great pity there doesn't appear to be a service record or pension record left to confirm his service.

Apart from the fact that we can't find anything online, is there any reason for believing that no record survives?

johnny_doyle · 20-11-2011 8:28pm

if he was in a Guards regiment, then it would (should) be available offline.

As far as I'm aware, the remaining WW1 service and pension records should be available online though some soldiers who served on after 1920 may still have records with the Ministry of Defence.

johnny_doyle · 24-11-2011 2:22am

enfield wrote: »

Just a stab in the dark here...would the name also be spelled Nealon or Neilon?
Cheers.
Tom.

having just had a major breakthrough with Hugh Niland and his 1862/64 US Navy records, I discovered my Joseph Niland's birth date and another spelling variation

Name: Joseph Nighland
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 23 Sep 1872
Birth Place: Dublin City, Dublin, Ireland
Father's Name: Hugh Nighland
Mother's Name: Ellen Hawkins

and can now work out his exact age when he was killed in March 1917.

enfield · 03-11-2014 11:04pm

179th Tunnelling Company, Royal Engineers, (SDGW). Dublin Joseph Niland Sapper Royal Engineers 179th Field Company. 95796 28/03/1917 Aged;43 Born-Dublin Enlisted-Dublin Killed in action Husband of Jane Niland, of 32, Summer Hill, Dublin. II. L. 21. Faubourg D’Amiens Cemetery, Arras, France.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mountjoy/Summerhill/29509/

jos28 · 05-11-2014 11:28pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

I can see 1 medal card for a Bartholomew Glover, Sapper, Royal Engineers, number 25418. Entered France 12/6/1915. Awarded 1915 Star, Victory Medal and British War Medal. Discharged but no date given. Not seeing anything else.

I think you already have this info based on a Rootschat thread and a posting in the WW1 forum.

There are a load of cards for William Glover. Nothing to show which one might have been from Tralee. There are 16 with Royal Engineer medal cards; if they'd joined together then their numbers would be close but the nearest is 28335 who was from Staffordshire and died of wounds. Any medals in the family belonging to William?

The photo of William on the WW1 forum shows him wearing a Silver War Badge rather than a Royal Engineers badge

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/49848/97657.jpg

This photo taken by Thomas Forrest and Sons who operated out of a studio (Cambrian Studios) at 14 Market St, Pontypridd, Glamorgan, from 1868 through to 1926.

Long overdue update on my search for William - I found his grave near Dagenham and got his death cert from that (DOD 1931). I always believed he lived alone but was delighted to find that he married a girl from Tralee in 1916. According to the register at St John's, Tralee, William was living in Pembroke, Wales at the time of marriage. Well done Detective Doyle !
That ties in nicely with the photo They stayed in England after the war and had 3 children. 2 of those children are still alive and I have been in touch with his daughter

:D. She confirmed everything I had discovered, she is living in Surrey and we will be meeting up in Tralee in the new year. Delighted the way it all turned out and I couldn't have done it without all the help I got here.

Jesus. · 06-11-2014 12:03am

How many Irishmen really died in that conflict? Was it 30k or 50k?

Peregrinus · 06-11-2014 7:21am

Jesus. wrote: »

How many Irishmen really died in that conflict? Was it 30k or 50k?

Short answer: It depends on what you mean by "Irishmen". And, even if you define that, it may still be difficult to know the answer.

Slightly longer answer: There was of course no separate category of "Irish citizen" in existence at the time. The British forces did, I think, record the place of birth of people enlisting, but lots of people who were born in Britain of Irish parents would have considered themselves, and called themselves, Irish. Conversely people born in Ireland of English, Scottish or Welsh parents might not have identified as Irish. The British army also had records of the places in which people had enlisted. And of course it also had records of people who served in regiments which traditionally recruited in Ireland, such as the Royal Irish Rifles or the Irish Guards.

So, does "Irishman" mean people who were born in Ireland? People who identify as Irish on cultural/ethnic grounds? People who enlisted in Ireland? People who served in Irish regiments?

And what about Irish people, however defined, who served in the US forces in 1917/18?

In other words, depending on how you count, you can come up with strikingly different figures, and on some counts it may be difficult to come up with any precise figure at all.

Jesus. · 06-11-2014 12:48pm

Come on Pereginus, cut the bullsh*t. We all know everything "depends" on all sorts of things.

Just give me a figure for people who were born in Ireland and who died fighting in WW1

Irish soldiers in WW1

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