God a figment of an evil imagination?

StormWarrior · 17-05-2008 4:06pm #1

Have you ever noticed that the more religious a society is, the more cruel and punishing the justice system is towards even minor "crimes"? For example, Saudi Arabia is going to give a university professor 150 lashes for sitting in a cafe with a woman he was not related to.

On the other hand, the more secular a country, the more humanitarian they are, and the more the justice system focuses on rehabilitation rather than sheer punishment. For example, Sweden. Swedes try to remould the criminals to make them fit to enter society again, without abusing them unnecessarily.

It often seems that religious people are more cruel-minded and punishing than atheists. So perhaps this is why the God of the bible is so "fire and brimstone" and torment forever without hope of redemption, just for punishment's own sake. Maybe the people who wrote it were just cruel and enjoyed thinking of others being tortured?

PDN · 17-05-2008 4:13pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

Have you ever noticed that the more religious a society is, the more cruel and punishing the justice system is towards even minor "crimes"? For example, Saudi Arabia is going to give a university professor 150 lashes for sitting in a cafe with a woman he was not related to.

On the other hand, the more secular a country, the more humanitarian they are, and the more the justice system focuses on rehabilitation rather than sheer punishment. For example, Sweden. Swedes try to remould the criminals to make them fit to enter society again, without abusing them unnecessarily.

It often seems that religious people are more cruel-minded and punishing than atheists. So perhaps this is why the God of the bible is so "fire and brimstone" and torment forever without hope of redemption, just for punishment's own sake. Maybe the people who wrote it were just cruel and enjoyed thinking of others being tortured?

Yes, the Vatican State kills and tortures many more people each year than the humanitarian secular nations of China and North korea. :rolleyes:

Galvasean · 17-05-2008 5:05pm

What a waste of a thread.

Nerin · 17-05-2008 6:47pm

in fairness, the religions that one should respect (the ones with a good message) arent to blame. its the followers.
i mean,im not a christian, but i respect someone that follows jesus' peaceful teachings,whereas when i hear of some idiot(phelps example) totally getting it wrong, its more man than message thats to blame.

Zombrex · 17-05-2008 6:48pm

PDN wrote: »

Yes, the Vatican State kills and tortures many more people each year than the humanitarian secular nations of China and North korea. :rolleyes:

Given the population of the Vatican city is 821 one wouldn't expect much going on in that regard.

On the other hand the Vatican city did have capital punishment on the law books up until 1971 for the crime of assassination of the Pope. After the Pope criticised executions in other countries pressure built for the Pope to remove this law in the late 60s, lest he be seen as being hypocritical.

robindch · 18-05-2008 12:54am

PDN wrote: »

the Vatican State kills and tortures many more people each year than the humanitarian secular nations of China and North korea

hmm... an interesting slip -- I assume you mean "humanist" rather than "humanitarian"

Anyhow, it seems that the Vatican has one of the world's highest per-capita crime rates:

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0300163.htm

...while at 10% for petty-theft, its prosecution rate is rather low:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2639777.stm

And yes, while China's number one when it comes to executing its own citizens (the DPRK's rate is unknown), it would stretch the truth somewhat to refer to the next four on the list -- Iran, Saudi, Pakistan and the USA -- as "secular"!

.

PDN · 18-05-2008 9:22am

robindch wrote: »

hmm... an interesting slip -- I assume you mean "humanist" rather than "humanitarian"

No, I meant 'humanitarian' because that was the word used by the OP. Of course I had my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, as befitted such a silly thread.

PDN · 18-05-2008 9:27am

robindch wrote: »

hmm... an interesting slip -- I assume you mean "humanist" rather than "humanitarian"

Anyhow, it seems that the Vatican has one of the world's highest per-capita crime rates:

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0300163.htm

...while at 10% for petty-theft, its prosecution rate is rather low:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2639777.stm

And yes, while China's number one when it comes to executing its own citizens (the DPRK's rate is unknown), it would stretch the truth somewhat to refer to the next four on the list -- Iran, Saudi, Pakistan and the USA -- as "secular"!

.

The Vatican's high theft rate is exactly what I would expect. A prime tourist attraction with crowds of Americans with big cameras, big mouths & big wallets will attract plenty of pickpockets etc. Of course you may choose to believe that it is the residents of the Vatican that carry out the crime if you wish. the thought of all those Cardinals dipping into tourists' pockets is certainly one to savour.

I would not be so silly as to suggest that cruel punishment is characteristic of religion or of atheism. Some forms of religion do indeed seem to specialise in cruelty, but then so do particular forms of atheism.

Zombrex · 18-05-2008 10:42am

PDN wrote: »

I would not be so silly as to suggest that cruel punishment is characteristic of religion or of atheism. Some forms of religion do indeed seem to specialise in cruelty, but then so do particular forms of atheism.

The cruel punishment seems to goes hand in hand with totalitarian states, the "do as we say, we know best" states.

These states are very often religious in nature, as religions (including Christianity and Islam) more often than not are formed around the idea of a system of "do as we say, we know best" systems of instruction, they know best because they claim the teaching comes from God.

But it is not exclusive to religious dogma. In the case of China, and North Korea the dogma is State Communism, which again says "do as we say, we know best"

Systems like these tend to allow for the assention of to power of quite nasty people, who are followed by the large population due to their claim to be representing the "correct" way, be that the teachings of Jesus or Karl Marx or Chairman Mao.

Galvasean · 18-05-2008 11:59am

robindch wrote: »

...while at 10% for petty-theft, its prosecution rate is rather low:

Probably turning the other cheek and forgiving.

robindch · 18-05-2008 6:04pm

PDN wrote: »

The Vatican's high theft rate is exactly what I would expect.

Well, I'd have thought that god would have looked after his own, or made sure that the thieves were caught, or at the very least, made sure that his representative on earth had a police force able to catch those who disappear into the shadows with the handbags and wallets of the One True Faithful.

I'd be interested to hear a religious reason as to why the Vatican's crime rate is apparently 20 times Greater Rome's, which presumably hosts all the Vatican's tourists, as well as its own.

PDN wrote: »

Of course you may choose to believe that it is the residents of the Vatican that carry out the crime if you wish.

Well, looking at the statistics again, that triple-murder in the Swiss Guards -- must have been eight or ten years ago -- overnight gave the Vatican the highest per-capita murder rate in Europe. Quis custodet custodes ipsos?

PDN wrote: »

The thought of all those Cardinals dipping into tourists' pockets is certainly one to savour.

An interesting thought, but perhaps superfluous, given the enthusiasm with which the faithful already and over their Pence to Peter?

irishsaint · 19-05-2008 12:26pm

Hmmm, very interesting.
.
Perhaps God is not a figment of evil imagination but rather a figment of controlling imagination.....

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What about Christianity though, lets assume GOD was created by a figment of imagination for whatever reason, the religious faiths, such as christianity which has be born out of that are the ideals that control the states. Not GOD as that is only an imagination, therefore, it is the religous faiths that are evil in that context.
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Secular states do not always conform to non torture and humanatarian ways, Turkey is a prime example of that. Its not a simple to say Christian / Moslem controlled states are bad and secular states are good. Its actually down to the ruling individuals and their belief or power mongering.
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I believe that religion born out of the creation of GOD was intended as a controlling method and because there are so many faiths, I believe all nations must be secular in order to allow real freedom to prevail for all its residents.
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You do not need a law against abortion passed to practice your faith
You do not need a law passed homosexuality to practice your faith
You do not need a law passed to enfore women to cover up to practice you faith.
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Secular nations are the only way to go

all the stars · 19-05-2008 12:51pm

PDN wrote: »

Yes, the Vatican State kills and tortures many more people each year than the humanitarian secular nations of China and North korea. :rolleyes:

Em, How many people have been murdered in the name of god? civilisations completely wiped out? come on now, its well documented! God himself doesn't do it - but people di it in his name... have been doing so for many, many, many years.

PDN · 19-05-2008 12:59pm

all the stars wrote: »

Em, How many people have been murdered in the name of god? civilisations completely wiped out? come on now, its well documented! God himself doesn't do it - but people di it in his name... have been doing so for many, many, many years.

It's well documented that both religious organisations and atheists have murdered people brutally. However, the OP appears to only be able to see one side of it, therefore I cited a very religious society today where there is no oppression worth talking about.

You get two kinds of extremes in these discussions. One tries to portray religion as oppressive and evil (the Crusades, inquisition etc) and atheism as humanitarian and enlightened. The other extreme is to pretend nothing bad was ever done by religious people and to point out the murder carried out by atheists such as Stalin, Mao etc. Both extremes are equally dishonest and fat-headed.

Nerin · 19-05-2008 1:01pm

PDN wrote: »

It's well documented that both religious organisations and atheists have murdered people brutally. However, the OP appears to only be able to see one side of it, therefore I cited a very religious society today where there is no oppression worth talking about.

You get two kinds of extremes in these discussions. One tries to portray religion as oppressive and evil (the Crusades, inquisition etc) and atheism as humanitarian and enlightened. The other extreme is to pretend nothing bad was ever done by religious people and to point out the murder carried out by atheists such as Stalin, Mao etc. Both extremes are equally dishonest and fat-headed.

have to agree here,that a very good point.
its frustrating when either side of an argument buries their head in the sand

seamus · 19-05-2008 1:11pm

PDN wrote: »

You get two kinds of extremes in these discussions. One tries to portray religion as oppressive and evil (the Crusades, inquisition etc) and atheism as humanitarian and enlightened. The other extreme is to pretend nothing bad was ever done by religious people and to point out the murder carried out by atheists such as Stalin, Mao etc. Both extremes are equally dishonest and fat-headed.

Indeed, while it may have been possible at one point to say, "Look, all the major genocidal acts have been carried out by religion", communism has shown us that totalitarian regimes tend towards these acts, regardless of belief. It's the totalitarianism that creates the acts, not the religion. Religion is often just used as a convenient method of maintaining the totalitarianism.

robindch · 19-05-2008 1:28pm

PDN wrote: »

One tries to portray religion as oppressive and evil (the Crusades, inquisition etc) and atheism as humanitarian and enlightened. The other extreme is to pretend nothing bad was ever done by religious people. Both extremes are equally dishonest and fat-headed.

And it's equally dishonest to suggest that a sensible compromise lies half way between the two extremes.

PDN · 19-05-2008 1:50pm

robindch wrote: »

And it's equally dishonest to suggest that a sensible compromise lies half way between the two extremes.

A sensible compromise is a secular society where people have the freedom to practice whatever religion, where people have the freedom to be atheists, and we all have the freedom to discuss our views with each other.

robindch · 19-05-2008 2:03pm

PDN wrote: »

A sensible compromise is a secular society where people have the freedom to practice whatever religion, where people have the freedom to be atheists, and we all have the freedom to discuss our views with each other.

quite right, but that glides by the point the OP was making, which is that religious societies tend to the coercive. It also ignores my question -- whether religion, on balance, is beneficial or harmful.

At some point, equivocating ceases to have much benefit and an informed decision should be made.

PDN · 19-05-2008 2:44pm

robindch wrote: »

quite right, but that glides by the point the OP was making, which is that religious societies tend to the coercive. It also ignores my question -- whether religion, on balance, is beneficial or harmful.

At some point, equivocating ceases to have much benefit and an informed decision should be made.

No, the OP was making more of a point than that. He was saying that religious societies are more coercive, and that secular societies are kinder. That in itself betrays faulty reasoning because a society can be both secular and religious. Secular does not equate with atheist.

Then he went on to make the leap of logic that therefore religious people are crueller and more punishing than atheists. I, quite reasonably responded that we can look at societies that are overwhelmingly religious and repressive (eg Saudi Arabia) and others that are overwhelmingly religious and tolerant (eg Vatican City). Also you can have overwhelmingly atheist societies that are oppressive (eg North Korea) and overwhelming atheist societies that are tolerant ( eg ...... er... uhm ... help me someone!)

all the stars · 19-05-2008 2:52pm

PDN wrote: »

You get two kinds of extremes in these discussions. One tries to portray religion as oppressive and evil (the Crusades, inquisition etc) and atheism as humanitarian and enlightened. The other extreme is to pretend nothing bad was ever done by religious people and to point out the murder carried out by atheists such as Stalin, Mao etc. Both extremes are equally dishonest and fat-headed.

taking it pesonal much...
so , was just making the point... Im not anti-religion, i think it does give a nice template of how to live life - i struggle with the rest of it.
I wasn't trying to suggest athiests and pagans didn't add to the body count, meerly saying dont be forgetting that plenty have died for this through christianity....

iUseVi · 19-05-2008 3:20pm

PDN wrote: »

No, the OP was making more of a point than that. He was saying that religious societies are more coercive, and that secular societies are kinder. That in itself betrays faulty reasoning because a society can be both secular and religious. Secular does not equate with atheist.

Then he went on to make the leap of logic that therefore religious people are crueller and more punishing than atheists. I, quite reasonably responded that we can look at societies that are overwhelmingly religious and repressive (eg Saudi Arabia) and others that are overwhelmingly religious and tolerant (eg Vatican City). Also you can have overwhelmingly atheist societies that are oppressive (eg North Korea) and overwhelming atheist societies that are tolerant ( eg ...... er... uhm ... help me someone!)

Ha ha, very funny. For your information countries that the census says are mostly irreligious (over 50%)

1. Sweden (up to 85% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)
2. Vietnam
3. Denmark
4. Norway
5. Japan
6. Czech Republic
7. Finland
8. France
9. South Korea
10. Estonia (up to 49% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)

Of course all these countries are terribly intolerant and just awful places to live....:D

robindch · 19-05-2008 3:38pm

PDN wrote: »

others that are overwhelmingly religious and tolerant (eg Vatican City).

Sir's sense of humor is running away with itself

PDN wrote: »

No, the OP was making more of a point than that. He was saying that religious societies are more coercive, and that secular societies are kinder.

I think the OP -- please correct me if I'm wrong -- was using the usual, but slightly sloppy, shorthand to describe what happens in countries with high levels of public religiosity and countries with low levels of public religiosity, aka "religious" and "secular".

You're familiar enough with the stats which show that high levels of public religiosity are positively correlated with high levels of many kinds of social dysfunction, that it's probably not worth rehashing them again.

PDN · 19-05-2008 3:46pm

iUseVi wrote: »

Ha ha, very funny. For your information countries that the census says are mostly irreligious (over 50%)

1. Sweden (up to 85% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)
2. Vietnam
3. Denmark
4. Norway
5. Japan
6. Czech Republic
7. Finland
8. France
9. South Korea
10. Estonia (up to 49% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)

Of course all these countries are terribly intolerant and just awful places to live....:D

I didn't ask about irreligious - I asked about overwhelmingly atheist.

I find it interesting that you list Estonia at 49%. That means that even when you lump the agnostics in with the atheists they are still in the minority. Of course 50 years ago Estonia would have boasted much higher figures of atheist. I do hope it hasn't become less tolerant since those halcyon days of the Soviet Union.

According to official government statistics, in 2005 South Korea's population was composed of 29% Christians and 23% Buddhist. So, again, hardly fits the description of overwhelmingly atheist, does it?

85% of the Norwegian population are members of the State Lutheran church. This means that a proportion of Norwegians are both religious and atheists since 25% of the population also claim to be atheist. But again, hardly overwhelmingly atheist.

The Czech republic would seen fairly tolerant - unless of course you're either Jewish or Gypsy in which case the neo-Nazism there is rather frightening.

Vietnam's record of persecuting Christians is really pretty shameful. I would be genuinely scared of anyone who holds Vietnam up as an example of enlightened tolerance!

As for countries like France, Denmark and Sweden - consider this. Have these countries become more tolerant because of the increasing percentage of atheists and agnostics there? Or, have they seen an increase in the number of atheists and agnostics due to the secular tolerance that already exists?

Japan is an interesting case which could probably keep an entire thread busy for months. The official membership of religious organisations in Japan add up to over 140% of the population

. Other surveys indicate that only 10% of the Japanese believe in God. So perhaps we have some more religious atheists there?

iUseVi · 19-05-2008 4:38pm

PDN wrote: »

I didn't ask about irreligious - I asked about overwhelmingly atheist.

I find it interesting that you list Estonia at 49%. That means that even when you lump the agnostics in with the atheists they are still in the minority. Of course 50 years ago Estonia would have boasted much higher figures of atheist. I do hope it hasn't become less tolerant since those halcyon days of the Soviet Union.

What's your point here? 50 years ago? You mean during the German occupation then. Ok I won't argue for that one, it just happened to come in the bottom of the list, I don't know much about Estonia's history.

PDN wrote: »

According to official government statistics, in 2005 South Korea's population was composed of 29% Christians and 23% Buddhist. So, again, hardly fits the description of overwhelmingly atheist, does it?

Hardly a beacon for Christ though is it. I see you are starting from the bottom up. Clever tactic.

PDN wrote: »

85% of the Norwegian population are members of the State Lutheran church. This means that a proportion of Norwegians are both religious and atheists since 25% of the population also claim to be atheist. But again, hardly overwhelmingly atheist.

Indeed they are registered into this Church of Norway at birth by default. So this is entirely meaningless. Kind of like all the Catholics in this country...;)

PDN wrote: »

The Czech republic would seen fairly tolerant - unless of course you're either Jewish or Gypsy in which case the neo-Nazism there is rather frightening.

Oh yes, huge majorities of the population are neo-nazi. Hardly. Besides all neo-nazis are atheists? I think not, in fact I suspect they would tend to be religious, but I don't have any figures for that.

PDN wrote: »

Vietnam's record of persecuting Christians is really pretty shameful. I would be genuinely scared of anyone who holds Vietnam up as an example of enlightened tolerance!

Ok I know nothing of Vietnam so I can't respond to that.

PDN wrote: »

As for countries like France, Denmark and Sweden - consider this. Have these countries become more tolerant because of the increasing percentage of atheists and agnostics there? Or, have they seen an increase in the number of atheists and agnostics due to the secular tolerance that already exists?

Makes no difference which way around it happened. Chicken or egg; it makes no difference. These countries have high levels of atheist(and growing) right now, and these countries right now are accepted as among the most tolerant. In other words, tolerant societies with high levels of atheists in them. My my, whatever next?!:pac:

PDN wrote: »

Japan is an interesting case which could probably keep an entire thread busy for months. The official membership of religious organisations in Japan add up to over 140% of the population . Other surveys indicate that only 10% of the Japanese believe in God. So perhaps we have some more religious atheists there?

Japan is interesting indeed. The main "religion", has no holy writings, no founders, no canon. Its more like a collection of interesting mythologies and folklore. Tolerant certainly. Atheist? Maybe. Religious? Sort of. As you said, interesting case.

JimiTime · 19-05-2008 6:03pm

i can't believe people indulge in this drivel talk. Bad things have been done in the name of religion, yadda, yadda, yadda. Bad things have been done by people of all sorts throughout the ages. If religion never existed, i guarantee it would be no better! Bad people are the problem not bad religion! End of!

IMO.:)

PDN · 19-05-2008 6:41pm

iUseVi wrote: »

What's your point here? 50 years ago? You mean during the German occupation then. Ok I won't argue for that one, it just happened to come in the bottom of the list, I don't know much about Estonia's history.

No, if you think it was occupied by Germany in 1958 then I don't think you do.

DublinWriter · 19-05-2008 6:59pm

PDN wrote: »

Yes, the Vatican State kills and tortures many more people each year than the humanitarian secular nations of China and North korea. :rolleyes:

Well, they used to: the death toll of the Spanish Inquisition was pretty impressive considering the limited technology available to them at the time.

...and if the First and Second Crusades weren't Ethnic Cleansing, I'll eat my hat.

Damn those Godless tolerant Danes and Belgians, they're all going to hell.

iUseVi · 19-05-2008 7:32pm

PDN wrote: »

No, if you think it was occupied by Germany in 1958 then I don't think you do.

he he. oopps. :eek: my mistake. so 1 + 1 != 3?

StormWarrior · 20-05-2008 12:44pm

PDN wrote: »

85% of the Norwegian population are members of the State Lutheran church. This means that a proportion of Norwegians are both religious and atheists since 25% of the population also claim to be atheist. But again, hardly overwhelmingly atheist.

Norwegians are automatically considered members of the church unless they opt out. Most simply cannot be bothered to go to the hassle of officially opting out. I lived in Norway and can assure you nowhere near 85% of them are Christians. I never met one.

As for the vatican being tolerant, I was quite annoyed to hear that the pope declared contraception against church laws despite evidence to the contrary. So the pope would rather have women stuck at home popping a kid out every year, despite the fact that the bible does not demand this. Very tolerant of him.

Galvasean · 20-05-2008 12:46pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

Norwegians are automatically considered members of the church unless they opt out. Most simply cannot be bothered to go to the hassle of officially opting out. I lived in Norway and can assure you nowhere near 85% of them are Christians. I never met one.

I did not know this. Ive been to Norway and they didn't seem all that religious to me.

God a figment of an evil imagination?

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