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Wind farms - ugly truths

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13567…47

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    #62
    fclauson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    AngryHippie wrote: »
    ..

    Statements like the OP's are typical of Hydrocarbon industry apologists, whose only goal is to delay action, deny obvious truths, hamper innovation and generally frustrate and misdirect any action to try and improve the direction we are travelling in as a species and a planet.

    Steady - my issues is from all the maths that I have seen Wind is not economic and not that carbon efficient

    degs and djbarry keep telling me I should look at facts an number - but no one has shown me any where wind really is that much better than say other methods

    Wind has a MASSIVE impact across out country with environmental impact (roads, steel, magnets, copper .... ) but it still classed as green. Then it cannot be relied upon unless we link up a huge set of inter connectors to share power - a good idea but no ROI has been shown for this. Its also having server community impact - speak to anyone who lives near a wind farm or has planning proposal for a wind farm.

    There are too many people each pitching there stall and very few which seem to clearly articulate

    Demand in Ireland is XX and will grow YY
    Currently we can get ZZ Mw/h from QQ power stations
    and the choices are

    a) Wind & Gas = cost €€€
    b) do nothing = cost €€€€
    c) coal + wind = €€€
    d) ....

    All of the ROI out there is spun by an interested party

    So given all the learned folks here - who could help put together a valid ROI with a set of priced options which are actually true and correct


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    #63
    fclauson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    AngryHippie wrote: »
    Correct, and it will also have a slack twice a day.
    Read about the rule of twelfths, and you will understand that it reaches peak flow for 2-4 hours per day, the rest of the time it is accelerating or decelerating. So to call tidal power constant, is also a misnomer, and to insinuate that we can just plug it into the grid any more than we can wind is equally disingenuous.
    So in that, Wind, and Tide have a common requirement, they both need capacity for storage, or for an intelligent rapidly switchable grid, or LV devices.
    The same will be true of most renewables. They are not constant. Solar - day and night. Tide - Ebb and Flow. Wind - Gust and Calm.
    The ultimate solution will be a combination of all of those available, with energy storage solutions to smooth out the peaks and troughs in order to make it suitable for some form of the distribution system we have today.
    Maybe I'm out of the box on this one, I'm not sure, but ruling out something that does work, but could be better, on the basis that something else might work and might be better is a pretty sure fire way to waste valuable time.

    we posted at the same time - agree with your points - but we need to build cost into the mix. It may be that using a hydrocarbon in the most efficient way - may actually prove better than tying to fit together all these other technologies.

    I just don't know - but my original post still holds - loads and loads of wind just ain't the answer


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    #64
    H3llR4iser
    Registered Users Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭H3llR4iser


    ted1 wrote: »
    Loads of inaccuracies there. Electric showers are in most cases actually more efficent.
    When I use my electric shower I heat the exact amount if water I use and not the full 300 litres of water In the tank and rads. Even after looking at the efficiency of how the electricity is generated and compare that to my boiler I reckon that the shower is still more efficent.

    Loads? Heating is better off running on gas - the efficiency is the same if not marginally better, the energy prices lower and it'd leave the electricity available for other tasks; Cooking should be the same - I have hardly ever seen a gas cooker in Ireland.

    If your boiler heats up the radiators when you take a shower, you have a broken diverter valve...a modern tankless one should only be heating the water that goes through the pipes and is used at the moment, more or less like the electric shower, only using a significantly more economical energy source.


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    #65
    dutopia
    Registered Users Posts: 583 ✭✭✭dutopia


    Sorry, but I can't take any argument seriously written in papyrus font with a lack of punctuation.


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    #66
    AngryHippie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    fclauson wrote: »
    Wind has a MASSIVE impact across out country with environmental impact (roads, steel, magnets, copper .... ) but it still classed as green. Then it cannot be relied upon unless we link up a huge set of inter connectors to share power - a good idea but no ROI has been shown for this. Its also having server community impact - speak to anyone who lives near a wind farm or has planning proposal for a wind farm.

    Its this simple:
    It has a fixed cost of installation, with a calculable carbon footprint, and forecastable maintenance cost. The output generated from it does not depend on an input from any further carbon inputs, beyond the maintenance, which can be broken down to an "overhead"

    Hydrocarbon based power, on the other hand, has a fixed cost of installation, and a variable maintenance cost (depending on use, quality of fuel, duty cycles etc) and the output generated is 100% dependent on carbon inputs, the price, quality and availability of which will all fluctuate wildly based on supply and demand.

    If you can accept the above statement as being more or less correct, then you can appreciate that our current system is a very high risk prospect for the future, and as such we should be doing everything we can (both in terms of investment incentives and research incentives) to future proof our energy supply.
    It being a "live" system, it is never going to be as simple as lets make a plan now and roll it out over three years, particularly given where we are on the learning curve regarding renewable energy systems (and have been for most of the current millenium because the hydrocarbon industry is stifling it at every turn, from climate change denial, to fcuking proxy wars all over the world).
    We need to move on from the assumption, and evolve our system. If that means we need to change the way we live, and the way we use power, then that needs to happen too. But at the rate we are going, we are fcuked.:(


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    #67
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    ted1 wrote: »
    See I think that wind is the lazy option that hampers innovation. It tricks people into thinking were using clean energy and that we have an answer.
    I think that has to be the most ridiculous argument against harnessing wind power that I’ve come across to date.


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    #68
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    fclauson wrote: »
    Steady - my issues is from all the maths that I have seen Wind is not economic and not that carbon efficient
    How about some maths to back up that statement?
    fclauson wrote: »
    degs and djbarry keep telling me I should look at facts an number - but no one has shown me any where wind really is that much better than say other methods
    Well you obviously haven’t been looking very hard. The cost of onshore wind has repeatedly been shown to be competitive with conventional generation technologies:

    http://en.openei.org/apps/TCDB/index.php?pMin=2009&pMax=2013&dMin=2009&dMax=2012&gf=h&dol=0&l=n&pub=&t=lcoe&ct=b
    fclauson wrote: »
    loads and loads of wind just ain't the answer
    Nobody has said that it is.


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    #69
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    H3llR4iser wrote: »
    Loads? Heating is better off running on gas - the efficiency is the same if not marginally better, the energy prices lower and it'd leave the electricity available for other tasks; Cooking should be the same - I have hardly ever seen a gas cooker in Ireland.

    If your boiler heats up the radiators when you take a shower, you have a broken diverter valve...a modern tankless one should only be heating the water that goes through the pipes and is used at the moment, more or less like the electric shower, only using a significantly more economical energy source.

    There's a large section of the market who have older heating systems where it's either on or off and the capital cost to change the system makes not financially viable


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    #70
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I think that has to be the most ridiculous argument against harnessing wind power that I’ve come across to date.

    It makes perfect sense, people are being told turbines are the future that we have loads of wind power and will be exporting it, that keeps them happy. There not told that the remaining 70% of the time we have to use fossil fuel .


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    #71
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    AngryHippie wrote: »
    Correct, and it will also have a slack twice a day.
    Read about the rule of twelfths, and you will understand that it reaches peak flow for 2-4 hours per day, the rest of the time it is accelerating or decelerating. So to call tidal power constant, is also a misnomer, and to insinuate that we can just plug it into the grid any more than we can wind is equally disingenuous.
    So in that, Wind, and Tide have a common requirement, they both need capacity for storage, or for an intelligent rapidly switchable grid, or LV devices.
    The same will be true of most renewables. They are not constant. Solar - day and night. Tide - Ebb and Flow. Wind - Gust and Calm.
    The ultimate solution will be a combination of all of those available, with energy storage solutions to smooth out the peaks and troughs in order to make it suitable for some form of the distribution system we have today.
    Maybe I'm out of the box on this one, I'm not sure, but ruling out something that does work, but could be better, on the basis that something else might work and might be better is a pretty sure fire way to waste valuable time.
    The difference is I can pick up tide tables in the shop that will give me the tide for the next few years. I can now plan my generation capacity and put a schedule in place. This leads to a much better form of generation than having spinning reserve ready for unpredictable wind energy.


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    #72
    fclauson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    Ditto

    and when the wind does not blow I'll import it from somewhere else in Europe - and if they have no wind then I'll have to rely on their nuclear/fossil plants - and if they don't have enough capacity within those plants for their own market then they will not sell to ireland and ireland goes dark

    not a good plan


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    #73
    fclauson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    ted1 wrote: »
    It makes perfect sense, people are being told turbines are the future that we have loads of wind power and will be exporting it, that keeps them happy. There not told that the remaining 70% of the time we have to use fossil fuel .

    the stats support we get less than 15% of the installed capacity from wind on average so given the average Ireland load of around 4500M/w we will need 18,000 installed capacity which costs €€€€€€€ - and is useless if there is no wind

    and by the way going through the approval process is some 25000

    it all just does no add up


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    #74
    Mr Chuckles
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭Mr Chuckles


    I don't think wind turbines are sustainable. According to a UK report, they have a life span of between 10 and 15 years. There are questions whether the concrete foundation, at about 1000 tonnes a go, will survive the life of the turbine without cracking, due to fatigue. Then there is the cost of connecting wind farms to the grid.


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    #75
    fclauson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    I'll accept the abuse this is not peer reviewed

    but it does show madness if its true -

    BoUYogWCQAA5pjU.png:large


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    #76
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    ted1 wrote: »
    It makes perfect sense, people are being told turbines are the future that we have loads of wind power and will be exporting it...
    People are being told this by whom exactly?
    ted1 wrote: »
    The difference is I can pick up tide tables in the shop that will give me the tide for the next few years. I can now plan my generation capacity and put a schedule in place. This leads to a much better form of generation than having spinning reserve ready for unpredictable wind energy.
    We can’t have wind and tidal?


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    #77
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Mr Chuckles wrote: »
    I don't think wind turbines are sustainable. According to a UK report, they have a life span of between 10 and 15 years.
    What report is this?


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    #78
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    fclauson wrote: »
    and when the wind does not blow I'll import it from somewhere else in Europe - and if they have no wind then I'll have to rely on their nuclear/fossil plants - and if they don't have enough capacity within those plants for their own market then they will not sell to ireland and ireland goes dark

    not a good plan
    No, it’s not, which is precisely why EU-wide collaboration on the matter is what is required and it's certainly attainable.
    fclauson wrote: »
    the stats support we get less than 15% of the installed capacity from wind on average…
    What stats are these?
    fclauson wrote: »
    I'll accept the abuse this is not peer reviewed

    but it does show madness if its true -
    Does it? How?

    A screenshot of a graph you’ve made in Excel does not an argument make.


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    #79
    fclauson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    djpbarry wrote: »
    No, it’s not, which is precisely why EU-wide collaboration on the matter is what is required and it's certainly attainable.
    ok - but we are a long way off that
    What stats are these?
    http://www.eirgrid.com/media/All-Island_Wind_and_Fuel_Mix_Report_Summary_2013.pdf
    and the graph
    System Average Monthly Wind Penetration %
    Does it? How?

    A screenshot of a graph you’ve made in Excel does not an argument make.

    Ok - take a look at the graph - why has capacity increased with no demand increase


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    #80
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    fclauson wrote: »
    http://www.eirgrid.com/media/All-Island_Wind_and_Fuel_Mix_Report_Summary_2013.pdf
    and the graph
    System Average Monthly Wind Penetration %
    But you said "we get less than 15% of the installed capacity from wind on average".

    That report suggests an average capacity factor of about 30%. You're confusing penetration with capacity factor.
    fclauson wrote: »
    Ok - take a look at the graph - why has capacity increased with no demand increase
    You think capacity should only increase in response to demand?


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    #81
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    djpbarry wrote: »
    People are being told this by whom exactly?
    the Media, government etc.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    We can’t have wind and tidal?

    We can put at the moment we are putting all our eggs in the wind basket. We need to scale back wind projects.


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    #82
    Mr Chuckles
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭Mr Chuckles


    fclauson wrote: »
    the stats support we get less than 15% of the installed capacity from wind on average so given the average Ireland load of around 4500M/w we will need 18,000 installed capacity which costs €€€€€€€ - and is useless if there is no wind

    and by the way going through the approval process is some 25000

    it all just does no add up

    I wonder if that 25000 takes into account, that the project to build wind farms in the midlands to export "green" energy to England, is now not going ahead (thankfully).


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    #83
    Mr Chuckles
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭Mr Chuckles


    djpbarry wrote: »
    What report is this?

    The study by Gordon Hughes. I can't post a link, but search for
    "Wear and Tear Hits Wind Farm Output and Economic Lifetime"


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    #84
    deegs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭deegs


    I was dismayed to see this going to its 6th page without the OP referencing any science and just randomly posting nonsense...

    Then I thought feckit... if you can't beat em!

    So anyway, a recent report said that wind power cost less than any other type of power ever invented and that for long term sustainability it actually costs less than all other sources combined.
    Whats more the training required to setup and maintain these things can actually increase a countries GDP by over 10% by educating staff an importing experts.
    Research is well underway where whole offshore wind farms can be be combined with tidal and wave systems to form floating cities that have a negative cost to build.

    Basically in the next five years all houses will actually be built with a 1800ft wind turbine baloons attached to our houses to give us free power....
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsHUALU--Wc

    And, even though I can't actually reference any of the above, you gotta believe me... cos its true!!!!!!! Honest.

    And the best bit!!! The more wind farms the more romance in your life (see attached for PROOF)


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    #85
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    ted1 wrote: »
    the Media, government
    Can you be a bit more specific? Maybe link to a particular government report, for example?


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    #86
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Mr Chuckles wrote: »
    The study by Gordon Hughes. I can't post a link…
    Why not?


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    #87
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Can you be a bit more specific? Maybe link to a particular government report, for example?


    I never said reports, Reports are for industry. Statements are for public, Most Irish people don't read reports, they read snippets and statements.



    http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2012/Wind+power+is+key+to+Irish+energy+future+and+Announcement+of+REFIT+2.htm

    http://www.epa.ie/researchandeducation/education/educ/sustainableresourceuse/windenergy-poweringthefuture/#.U39fctJdVXE


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    #88
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    ted1 wrote: »
    I never said reports, Reports are for industry. Statements are for public, Most Irish people don't read reports, they read snippets and statements.



    http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2012/Wind+power+is+key+to+Irish+energy+future+and+Announcement+of+REFIT+2.htm

    http://www.epa.ie/researchandeducation/education/educ/sustainableresourceuse/windenergy-poweringthefuture/#.U39fctJdVXE
    Right. So what's the problem with those two pages you've linked to?


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    #89
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Right. So what's the problem with those two pages you've linked to?

    the very headline Wind power is key to Irish energy future


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    #90
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    ted1 wrote: »
    the very headline Wind power is key to Irish energy future
    You think that headline "tricks people into thinking we're using clean energy and that we have an answer"?

    Because to me, all it says is that wind power will play an important role.


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    #91
    mister gullible
    Registered Users Posts: 463 ✭✭mister gullible


    It's unbelievable that a country on the windswept edge of Europe with many areas of sparse population is not generating massive amounts of electricity from wind. It is a vast untapped resource. Seems obvious that heavy wind generation, when the wind blows, will more than cancel out the loss of efficiency in ramping conventional backup plants up and down. A visit to the massive wind farm south of Glasgow is interesting - the turbines are an impressive feature of the landscape and the maintenance/access roads are open to hikers/bikers etc with good parking supplied (free). Whenever I travel through the midlands and west I wonder where are all the windmills? And they should be generating power for ordinary Irish people, not for other countries. Let's not go down the road of selling off our resources cheaply as has been done in the past to profit major corporations. Power to the people!!


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