Protesters Filming Gardai Vs Garda right to protect their identity

culabula88 · 02-05-2008 10:37am #1

Just looking at some videos on youtube there and they latest craze seems to be for protestors to continue to film gardai , if they are stopped or asked questions.
Most gardai dont want to be filmed but is there a law whereby the garda can ask the person to put down the camera or take the camera off them. Gardai seem to be intimidated by the presence of the camera.

Ive seen other clips with the same scenario in Scotland for the g6 summit and the police are quoting the data protection act as a right to ask people to stop filming them but would this be a arrestable offence.

The only thing that Guards in this country could probably use is obstruction of garda in course of their duty or failure to comply with directions of garda , but would this hold up in court?

el_tiddlero · 02-05-2008 12:01pm

given that there's CCTV cameras everywhere that the Gardai can use the footage from to gather information/evidence the old adage "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" comes to mind.

If they're watching you, then you have every right to watch them back..

If filming them is the only way some people think they'll get a fair deal, then so be it, bad reputations have to come from somewhere, so to my mind, anything that allows people to see Gardai as more peaceful and honest has to be good. The more videos showing Gardai behaving reasonably and properly the better, no?

ojewriej · 02-05-2008 12:23pm

I can't see how the Gardai could stop people doing that. They are public servants working in public places.

I don't think they should be able to either, even though I can see how this can be annoiyng verging on obstructing sometimes.

culabula88 · 02-05-2008 1:22pm

But hasnt ever person a right to protect their identity and not to have their picture published on youtube and the like without their permission? it amounts to harrassment in most cases. take a look at youtube.

ojewriej · 02-05-2008 1:25pm

Not if the filming is being done in a public place as far as i know.

Plus Gardai are in a bit different situation - they are not just members of the public, but Civil Servants employed by the State. They have to have their number displayed on the epaulets anyway.

el_tiddlero · 02-05-2008 2:17pm

The rules on filming in public are something like this:
you may film people in public without permission so long as you don't show them going in or out of a premesis (i.e. their place of work or house or whatever)
So, if you film a Garda who's just on the street talking to you or walking around, then there's no problem... If, however, you were to film them going into their station or a house or anything like that, then you would need permission to use their image. However, as YouTube is largely unregulated, I don't see any effective way for this to be policed...

culabula88 · 02-05-2008 2:23pm

So if somebody decides to film somebody anybody from general public then there is nothing that person can do?

ojewriej · 02-05-2008 2:28pm

Pretty much. How and where the recording can be used is a whole different issue though.

Eru · 02-05-2008 7:56pm

culabula88 wrote: »

So if somebody decides to film somebody anybody from general public then there is nothing that person can do?

More or less but the right to privacy and harassment comes into play. Shouldnt be in my opinion but there you go.

As for Gardai, well for starters no person likes being recorded unless they are film stars. Just look at parties etc, everyone looking away "Get the camera off me".

In the clips you see on Youtube you will also note how many are edited to bits and usually posted and recorded in the first place purely to annoy Gardai, make them look bad and/or stupid. Then theres also those 'video vigilantes' that for some strange reason are just dying to catch something they can use against the Garda in question even when the Gardai are just doing their jobs (a job Mr Video wouldnt even attempt)

The video clips just showing Gardai arresting people, etc that the cameraman just happened to catch on a phone while out and about I dont think anyone minds however be advised that it could easily be seized as evidence.

In regards stations, you cannot video or take photos of Garda stations, Gardai coming and going and vehicles under the offences against the state Act 1939 / 1998. This could stretch to the faces of Gardai but to my knowledge it never has.

You can also not publish pictures of Gardai for commercial gain unless your accedited media.

Besides, how often are Gardai photographed without even knowing by tourists or even pose with people for a photo? I have been dozens of times however I have also demanded people remove photos from their cameras when they have simple walked up and rammed it in my face.

ojewriej wrote: »

Plus Gardai are in a bit different situation - they are not just members of the public

And your point is? Being state employed removes human rights? Or is it because you think tax payers pay our wages? If so then Im self employed because I pay tax. Push that further, do I pay Bill Gates wages? I have Windows XP. Can I run into a barbers and start snapping away? Afterall he serves me when I get a haircut.

ojewriej wrote: »

They have to have their number displayed on the epaulets anyway.

I dont see what that has to do with the subject at all.

culabula88 · 02-05-2008 8:14pm

im not really talking about tourists etc. thats different or people taking a photo for photo sakes e.g. tourists etc. but recording somebodies face and actions and then posting it on youtube is just wrong.it exploits the person and the fact that they are a garda just trying to do their duty.

Is there something like offences against security of the state and you could argue that photographing a garda could identify them.I think there definately needs to be a law to stop protesters and general thugs recording gardai and putting them up on youtube when ever they like. Im not talking about general recording of say gardai on the beat or whatever, what im talking about is someone putting a camera into their faces and then putting it up on youtube.

If the garda did the same to these guys , all you would here would be civil liberties were infringed

maglite · 02-05-2008 8:38pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I have also demanded people remove photos from their cameras when they have simple walked up and rammed it in my face.

Can i ask what lets you demand, and what happens if they say so.

Mutz · 02-05-2008 9:37pm

maglite wrote: »

Can i ask what lets you demand, and what happens if they say so.

I presume he is using his right as a citizen to demand that they remove his image from someone elses camera.

I'd say he's "demanding" that they remove it on personal grounds.

If a Garda shoved a camera in your face and took a photo no doubt joe Duffy would be hearing about it!

Eru · 03-05-2008 10:17pm

maglite wrote: »

Can i ask what lets you demand, and what happens if they say so.

Presume you mean no. I would take the camera as evidence and arrest them for obstruction under Section 19, Criminal justice (Public order) Act 1994 considering the camera was literally 1 foot from my face and not only interfered but also obstructed my view while I was dealing with someone.

In relation to other circumstances You may also look at the following. Now I want to state now that the below would not always be applicable as I already stated in a previous post.

Section 7, Offences against the state Act 1939
Section 9, Offences against the state Act 1939
Section 12, Offences against the state Act 1939
Section 8, Offences against the state (Amendment) Act 1998

culabula88 · 03-05-2008 10:28pm

I wonder how many of the above would suffice in court. If a guard arrests the person , do they have the right to delete the images from the persons camera.

I think the situation of things going up on youtube needs to be stopped

Gavin · 05-05-2008 11:19pm

culabula88 wrote: »

I wonder how many of the above would suffice in court. If a guard arrests the person , do they have the right to delete the images from the persons camera.

I think the situation of things going up on youtube needs to be stopped

Why ? It's perfectly legal. There is nothing with the videoing/photographing of people in public places.

http://www.digitalrights.ie/2006/05/09/photographers-rights/

jill_valentine · 05-05-2008 11:43pm

Believe it or not, the vast majority of protesters use cameras not to try and catch anybody out, but because having a camera present guarantees everything runs smoothly. Everybody - from all corners - makes an effort to behave themselves when there's a camera on them. If trouble does kick off, it reflects badly on the groups protesting, because whatever issue they're trying to represent becomes associated with rent-a-mob half wits who want to play cops and robbers. Having a camera keeps manners on all involved, and stops that happening from the word go.

That said, I don't doubt it's frustrating from the point of view of a Guard to be filmed by a cameraman with a hostile agenda. I'm sure the large majority of Guards do their jobs just fine without Johnny Public recording them all the time. But...

... I remember the antics of the infamous Robocop a few years back, and if I hadn't seen that on video, I wouldn't have believed it.

The Gardai are the representatives of the State's law on ground level, and accept the public scrutiny that responsibilty brings with it every time they put on the uniform. A private citizen has no such responsibility. That is why this is an issue related to the epaulette numbers, because from the public point of view, it's a question of accountability.

afatbollix · 05-05-2008 11:55pm

Ive been asked to stop filming before by the gardai.

it was on o connell street and it was a professional tv shoot. basicly the gard at the GPO used the act that says if asked to move on you have to...

if they asked for my tape i wouldent of given it to them...
wouldent that be steeling if they took it? just asking of corse..

Gavin · 06-05-2008 12:09am

anto-t wrote: »

Ive been asked to stop filming before by the gardai.

it was on o connell street and it was a professional tv shoot. basicly the gard at the GPO used the act that says if asked to move on you have to...

A professional TV shoot would have obtained permission, or at least notified Gardai that they would be filming at a certain time/place. Yee were probably moved on for obstruction. (It being a public thoroughfare and all)

afatbollix · 06-05-2008 12:15am

naw you dont need permission.. it was only for a documentry not the next block buster film.. it was in the middle bit and there was a total of 6 people there.. anyway we went away got a cup of coffee and went back.. and then got what we wanted...

the gards normally are very helpfull tho when they see us.. one even got rid of a drunk knob who was annoying us one night..

the_syco · 06-05-2008 12:44am

Throw rocks at the Gardai for 5 minutes, and when they come over, whip out the mobile phone to video tape them forcing you to the ground, to stop you from throwing rocks at them. Mobile phone only shows the Gardai defending themselves, but as it doesn't show the rocks being thrown, the scumbags claim it was an unprovoked attacked. Pretty sure this is what happened in the Robocop case.

ojewriej · 06-05-2008 9:05am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

And your point is? Being state employed removes human rights? Or is it because you think tax payers pay our wages? If so then Im self employed because I pay tax. Push that further, do I pay Bill Gates wages? I have Windows XP. Can I run into a barbers and start snapping away? Afterall he serves me when I get a haircut.

I didn't say anything about who is paying your wages. What I meant is that public has more rights to a more transparency when it comes to work of Civil Servants, Gardai included, than when it comes to work done by employees of some private company.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I dont see what that has to do with the subject at all.

OP was talking about their right to privacy. I just pointed out that they don't work anonymously, as they can be identified by the numbers displayed on their shoulders.

metman · 06-05-2008 4:31pm

the_syco wrote: »

Throw rocks at the Gardai for 5 minutes, and when they come over, whip out the mobile phone to video tape them forcing you to the ground, to stop you from throwing rocks at them. Mobile phone only shows the Gardai defending themselves, but as it doesn't show the rocks being thrown, the scumbags claim it was an unprovoked attacked. Pretty sure this is what happened in the Robocop case.

I had this very instance not so long ago. We got a report of a male being abusive outside a well known boozer. Turn up and this idiot has already been bottled in said boozer for his big mouth. As I start to speak to this bloke, a Canadian built like a short brick *hithouse, it becomes readily apparent that he is an obnoxious idiot that cannot hold his liquor and is heavily under the influence of drink and drugs. He rapidly begins to mouth off to me and no sooner than a black member of the public has walked past his racist views come to the fore. At this point I've had enough and want nothing more than to bring him in so I place a cuff on him and nick him; he goes off big style. I've since watched some nice cctv of me dropping the bloke with a bit of old school jiu-jitsu (always useful) but it wound up taking six of us to get this guy under any semblance of control. He was a real handful. As I was struggling with this violent racist, drugged up, p*ssed up asshole I distinctly remember a crowd gathering to watch the goings-on and I remember hearing a number of people say, as I was struggling to restrain this numpty; "Bloody Police brutality. Look at that, police brutality". I don't know what surprised me more, the strength of this geezer or the fact that the public not only stood around and watched but also thought I was beating him up! It took six coppers to get the twat into a caged van.

What the public didn't see was that this bloke was a violent racist asshole and had resisted arrest. They also didn't see him try to headbutt a colleague, or kick me in the head, nor did they see him try to spit blood into my face or that of my colleagues......among other things. Nope we were being true to form and brutalising this poor man. As we in the Police are prone to do :rolleyes:

However, I'm happy to say that this person met the Met.

Eru · 06-05-2008 4:32pm

ojewriej wrote: »

OP was talking about their right to privacy. I just pointed out that they don't work anonymously, as they can be identified by the numbers displayed on their shoulders.

And in McDonalds they were name tags. Its simple because your dealing with the public not about transparancy and shoulder numbers were originally an internal id for the Gardai. Remember its only in the last couple of years that they have been introduced outside the DMR.

ojewriej wrote: »

I didn't say anything about who is paying your wages. What I meant is that public has more rights to a more transparency when it comes to work of Civil Servants, Gardai included, than when it comes to work done by employees of some private company.

Why?

metman · 06-05-2008 4:45pm

Originally Posted by ojewriej
I didn't say anything about who is paying your wages. What I meant is that public has more rights to a more transparency when it comes to work of Civil Servants, Gardai included, than when it comes to work done by employees of some private company.

What a lot of people forget is that members of the police are also members of the public. Similarly what a lot of people forget is that police officers are also tax payers and pay their own wages. So saying 'I PAY YOUR WAGES' to a copper won't cut much ice. My response to this statement is usually one of two stock answers:

(1) Thanks for the boots, I like em! By the way I also pay taxes you stupid <insert expletive>.

(2) You don't pay my wages, you're unemployed, I pay your <insert expletive> social you waste of space <insert expletive>.

Fyr.Fytr · 06-05-2008 4:56pm

My Da's favorite one

Oh so your that tight ******x I've been meaning to talk to you

vasch_ro · 07-05-2008 9:28am

I just ask for a raise !!

ojewriej · 07-05-2008 9:42am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

And in McDonalds they were name tags. Its simple because your dealing with the public not about transparancy and shoulder numbers were originally an internal id for the Gardai. Remember its only in the last couple of years that they have been introduced outside the DMR.

And can you take your number off or hide it when you are on duty? Because McDonald employees can.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Why?

Because like it or not, Public is your boss. Members of the public trusted you with certain powers other people don't have, like power of arrest, and it's only normal they have a right to see how do you use this powers.

And I'm not talking about "I pay your wages" BS here, it's a stupid statement to make, and i don't blame any cop who gets annoyed when someone says that to him.

And I know, LEOs are themselves members of the public, but that doesn't change anything.

Elessar · 07-05-2008 11:26am

I was filming a piece for a documentary once just outside the GPO. There were two guards in the shot and one of them obviously didn't like being filmed so he shouted over to me "DID YOU ASK ME DID I WANT TO BE FILMED?!!"

Considering his tone I was not going to get into an argument, so I just said "no, sorry" and walked off.

Question is, do I need to ask?

Gavin · 07-05-2008 12:10pm

No.

lostexpectation · 07-05-2008 9:36pm

the_syco wrote: »

Throw rocks at the Gardai for 5 minutes, and when they come over, whip out the mobile phone to video tape them forcing you to the ground, to stop you from throwing rocks at them. Mobile phone only shows the Gardai defending themselves, but as it doesn't show the rocks being thrown, the scumbags claim it was an unprovoked attacked. Pretty sure this is what happened in the Robocop case.

that is not what happened they were no rocks thrown.

there were few empty cans and plastic bottlse thrown by people not really associated with the event when the gardai surrounded the group

it doesn't justify chasing people to baton them.
that is not what happened, it doesn't justify batoning people already lying prone on the ground

it doesn't justify batoning random passers by and journalists trying to do they job, that sort of stuff clearly shows the gardai were out of control that day.

it was a unusual situation but just imagine all the beatings not caught on camera.

Eru · 08-05-2008 7:43am

ojewriej wrote: »

And can you take your number off or hide it when you are on duty? Because McDonald employees can.

Im not sure where your going with this one, Staff are supposed to wear name tags, I know I worked there. Shoulder numbers, despite popular myth, is not a legal requirement. Theres no law stating that I must wear or display them. Its an internal discipline matter the same as McDonalds is.

ojewriej wrote: »

Because like it or not, Public is your boss. Members of the public trusted you with certain powers other people don't have, like power of arrest, and it's only normal they have a right to see how do you use this powers.

And I'm not talking about "I pay your wages" BS here, it's a stupid statement to make, and i don't blame any cop who gets annoyed when someone says that to him.

And I know, LEOs are themselves members of the public, but that doesn't change anything.

So it does come down to, "I pay your wages", how else do you consider the public to be my boss?

On that basis you can sack me, discipline me, negotiate my wages and tell me what jobs to do or not do? No you cant because your not my boss anymore than I am Bill Gates boss and a good thing to or policing would be a complete waste of time considering my boss wouldnt let me arrest him, give him a ticket or in fact take any action he didnt like.

Which come to think of it, makes me wonder which boss I should listen to, the guy that got punched shouting for his assailant to be arrested or my other boss, the puncher who is screaming to let him go. Who is the Vice president and who is the Senior president in this company?

If you want to compare us to other areas then I suggest you consider yourself a customer and as such are entitled to a certain level of service in terms of manners and product delivery. Not however, in terms of seeing how the company is run or who is paid what or how much money the company spends in certain areas. Microsoft dont tell you that nor do you get an input into the decision making and neither do you have such an insight into the police.

lostexpectation wrote: »

that is not what happened they were no rocks thrown.

there were few empty cans and plastic bottlse thrown by people not really associated with the event when the gardai surrounded the group

it doesn't justify chasing people to baton them.
that is not what happened, it doesn't justify batoning people already lying prone on the ground

it doesn't justify batoning random passers by and journalists trying to do they job, that sort of stuff clearly shows the gardai were out of control that day.

it was a unusual situation but just imagine all the beatings not caught on camera.

Im sorry, whats this in relation to?

Would it have anything to do with the events that resulted in Gardai being charged with assault? I suspect so but then again, Im fuzzy on the whole thing. Wasnt 'Robocop' found innocent on all charges by a jury of citizens of the state?

Sounds like a case of a man being wrongly accused to me considering we do believe in innocent until proven guilty dont we? Maybe we should have a tribunal and see if certain people on the day perjured themselves in court and contaminated video evidence? the juries decision would seem to indicate that this may have happened.

ojewriej · 08-05-2008 9:08am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Im not sure where your going with this one, Staff are supposed to wear name tags, I know I worked there...

I worked in McDonalds as well. Name on my name tag changed every week. Can Gardai fake numbers?

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Shoulder numbers, despite popular myth, is not a legal requirement. Theres no law stating that I must wear or display them. Its an internal discipline matter the same as McDonalds is..

I thought it was a legal requrement tbh. Especially that there is a bit of an uproar in the media whenever gardai are caught removing/covering their numbers. So what was the reason behind it then? Why did the GS mgmt decided that the numbers have to be displayed?

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

So it does come down to, "I pay your wages", how else do you consider the public to be my boss?.

This is how:

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

... consider yourself a customer and as such are entitled to a certain level of service in terms of manners and product delivery. Not however, in terms of seeing how the company is run or who is paid what or how much money the company spends in certain areas. Microsoft dont tell you that nor do you get an input into the decision making and neither do you have such an insight into the police.

That's exactly a point I'm trying to make. I'm not expecting to have a say in the way GS is being run. I also understand that there is a lot of confidential stuff going on. But GS shouldn't have anything to hide when it comes to their everyday dealings with general public.
I think UK forces understand that - hence there is a lot of british cop shows lately. Transparency helps to create trust.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Microsoft dont tell you that nor do you get an input into the decision making and neither do you have such an insight into the police.

The difference between Microsoft and GS is crucial: I can choose not to use Microsoft, but I can't stop paying taxes, therefore I can't stop being GS' "customer".

Eru · 08-05-2008 6:19pm

ojewriej wrote: »

I worked in McDonalds as well. Name on my name tag changed every week. Can Gardai fake numbers?

Anythings possible but it would require a level of planning plus if you were caught your job would be gone and god help anyone that gets a complaint using my numbers!

ojewriej wrote: »

I thought it was a legal requrement tbh. Especially that there is a bit of an uproar in the media whenever gardai are caught removing/covering their numbers. So what was the reason behind it then? Why did the GS mgmt decided that the numbers have to be displayed?

First off, when where Gardai caught removing and/or hiding their numbers? You phrase this in a way which implies you believe this is a regular occurance. Numbers have to be displayed for identification purposes but it a management decision.

ojewriej wrote: »

That's exactly a point I'm trying to make. I'm not expecting to have a say in the way GS is being run. I also understand that there is a lot of confidential stuff going on. But GS shouldn't have anything to hide when it comes to their everyday dealings with general public.
I think UK forces understand that - hence there is a lot of british cop shows lately. Transparency helps to create trust.

In what way should we be more open? What aspect is it your unhappy about? Remembering that the people we interact with are entitled to a level of confidentiality and knowing the ins and outs of how we operate benefits criminals far more than decent people.

ojewriej wrote: »

The difference between Microsoft and GS is crucial: I can choose not to use Microsoft, but I can't stop paying taxes, therefore I can't stop being GS' "customer".

Accepted but I pay tax too and it goes to a hell of a lot more things than just policing. How do you feel about your tax money supporting lazy dicks who couldnt be bothered getting a job or worse still, criminals? How about solicitors who are getting paid fro tax money to defend career criminals? Or translators because people refuse to speak English? The list goes on and on.

metman · 08-05-2008 7:21pm

That's exactly a point I'm trying to make. I'm not expecting to have a say in the way GS is being run. I also understand that there is a lot of confidential stuff going on. But GS shouldn't have anything to hide when it comes to their everyday dealings with general public.
I think UK forces understand that - hence there is a lot of british cop shows lately. Transparency helps to create trust.

I think reality cop shows are a good thing too in this respect. Yep sure we have tons of reality cop shows here in the UK. But we're a nation of 60 million people. London alone has about 3 times the population of Ireland. Now factor in the budgets of tv companies here as compared to that in Ireland? Conspiracy to hide the evil practices of the Gardai? More likely not much money to be made from such a show. Sorry to burst the bubble of the anti-Garda brigade.

ojewriej · 08-05-2008 9:39pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Anythings possible but it would require a level of planning plus if you were caught your job would be gone and god help anyone that gets a complaint using my numbers!

First off, when where Gardai caught removing and/or hiding their numbers? You phrase this in a way which implies you believe this is a regular occurance. Numbers have to be displayed for identification purposes but it a management decision.

Whether it is the law that require you to display the number, or the management decision, bottom line is you have to display your number, otherwise you will get into trouble.
Why is that, why did the management made that decision?

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

In what way should we be more open? What aspect is it your unhappy about? Remembering that the people we interact with are entitled to a level of confidentiality and knowing the ins and outs of how we operate benefits criminals far more than decent people.

Now you are just putting words in my mouth. All I said is that the GS shouldn't have anything to hide, when dealing with General Public. Remember, the subject of this thread is whether we should be able to film Gardai working on the street. All my arguments are posted here to support that and only that. I don't think we should be able to film inside the station for example.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Accepted but I pay tax too and it goes to a hell of a lot more things than just policing. How do you feel about your tax money supporting lazy dicks who couldnt be bothered getting a job or worse still, criminals? How about solicitors who are getting paid fro tax money to defend career criminals? Or translators because people refuse to speak English? The list goes on and on.

I don't like it. So? This doesn't have anything to do with this thread.

metman wrote: »

Yep sure we have cop shows here in the UK. But we're a nation of 60 million people. London alone has about 3 times the population of Ireland. Now factor in the budgets of tv companies here as compared to that in Ireland? Conspiracy to hide the evil practices of the Gardai? More likely not much money to be made from such a show. Sorry to burst the bubble of the anti-Garda brigade.

No the Garda don't have film crews following em around week in week out but that's more to do with money than Garda conspiracies.

First of all, I never suggested or implied any Garda conspiracy, just to be clear. I don't know why there is no Garda show similar to the ones in UK, and I'm not going to speculate. I brought it up only as an example of transparency in the Police Force.

I don't buy the money argument though. Cop shows are niche programs which develop steady following all over the world, and have no problems attracting advertisers. Back home, we had a show in which cameras followed policeman working in the sleepy town with 300.000 people living in it. It was for local TV station only, so quite a small market, but it was actually a very profitable project.

Traumadoc · 08-05-2008 11:49pm

There was a program that followed 4 interns around St Vincents last year, showed up a lot of the issues related to their work, Same with the program "surgeons" that followed Consultants. Cannot see why you would not have the same with Gardai, Might show a lot of people the realities of abuse that you have to deal with.

cushtac · 09-05-2008 1:18am

Traumadoc wrote: »

Cannot see why you would not have the same with Gardai, Might show a lot of people the realities of abuse that you have to deal with.

The Garda brass don't trust RTE to do something like that after they got shafted by Prime Time.

afatbollix · 09-05-2008 2:12am

metman wrote: »

I think Cop shows are a good thing too in this respect. But here's a shocker for the general public. The Garda Siochana aint doing anything different than we're doing here in the Met (as seen on Street Crime UK/Cops with Cameras/Sky Cops/Traffic Cops/*Cops....don't mention The Bill...) or what TVP are doing (Road Wars) or what the PSNI are doing (Derry City Beat).

Yep sure we have cop shows here in the UK. But we're a nation of 60 million people. London alone has about 3 times the population of Ireland. Now factor in the budgets of tv companies here as compared to that in Ireland? Conspiracy to hide the evil practices of the Gardai? More likely not much money to be made from such a show. Sorry to burst the bubble of the anti-Garda brigade.

No the Garda don't have film crews following em around week in week out but that's more to do with money than Garda conspiracies.

As a 'transparent' Uk Copper with a lot of friends in the Gardai I can tell you the lads and lassies in Eire aint doing much different to what we're doing here day to day. Cops are cops. Love us or hate us.

nope, not about money... ive tryed myself aswell as about 4 other people this year, the top brass and that i mean the minister of justice wont allow it.. its all down to not having a good pr department.. (sending in gardai that arent trained to deal with the press and they got slautered) must also be them not trusting there own members to put on a good legal show maybe???

Eru · 09-05-2008 6:50am

anto-t wrote: »

nope, not about money... ive tryed myself aswell as about 4 other people this year, the top brass and that i mean the minister of justice wont allow it.. its all down to not having a good pr department.. (sending in gardai that arent trained to deal with the press and they got slautered) must also be them not trusting there own members to put on a good legal show maybe???

What are you talking about?

Ojewriej,
Your not giving anything that supports your arguement at all. All your saying is that people should be allowed shove cameras in the face of Gardai because were state employees and paid via tax money. What name tags, numbers, etc have to do with it I dont know. I in turn have tried to show you where tax money goes and in fact, we all pay eachothers wages and as a result are in fact eachothers bosses using your reasoning.

As for the rest, Im trying to explain why Gardai cannot be transparant and allow people to follow us with cameras. I presume you realise that criminals arent morons and as such will use whatever they can to get at or around the police.

You have then gone on about removing shoulder numbers and in my opinion, have implied that Gardai are untrustworthy and require watching.

DublinWriter · 09-05-2008 7:18am

el_tiddlero wrote: »

given that there's CCTV cameras everywhere that the Gardai can use the footage from to gather information/evidence the old adage "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" comes to mind.

If they're watching you, then you have every right to watch them back..

At least one member is assigned record the proceedings on camcorder during the break-up of protests, such as the Shell-to-Sea guys. I'd imagine the idea is to present the scene from the garda point-of-view.

The guards also did this en-masse during Bush's visit here in 2004.

ojewriej · 09-05-2008 10:10am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Ojewriej,
Your not giving anything that supports your arguement at all. All your saying is that people should be allowed shove cameras in the face of Gardai because were state employees and paid via tax money. What name tags, numbers, etc have to do with it I dont know.

All I'm saying is that I don't see why members of the public should be forbidden to film Gardai performing their dutties on the street. Not only because it's a public place, but also because Gardai are state employees, and members of the public have a right to see how their money is being spent.
Requirement to display the ID numbers serves as a proof that Garda Management sees the need of transparency as well.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I in turn have tried to show you where tax money goes and in fact, we all pay eachothers wages and as a result are in fact eachothers bosses using your reasoning.

A think it's a common knowledge that a lot of income from taxes is being wasted. I don't see how what does this have to do with this subject. Especially that I never implied that the GS is wasting the taxpayers money.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

As for the rest, Im trying to explain why Gardai cannot be transparant and allow people to follow us with cameras. I presume you realise that criminals arent morons and as such will use whatever they can to get at or around the police.

I made it very clear, that all I'm talking about is filming the beat Gardai on the street. Obviously certain things can't be revealed.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

You have then gone on about removing shoulder numbers and in my opinion, have implied that Gardai are untrustworthy and require watching.

In your opinion. I brought it up only to show why I thoiught that displaying ID numbers is a legal requirement. How did you get that I think that Gardai are untrustworthy from that is beyond me.

To be honest, I think you are taking it all a bit too personally. If you read my posts carefully, you will see that I didn't criticize GS once in this thread, I never said I had a problem with the way they do their thing, and that they should implement changes. I repeat: all I'm saying is that I don't see why Gardai can't be filmed. The rest is you jumping to conclussions and putting words in my mouth.

culabula88 · 09-05-2008 11:51am

Getting back to the start of the thread, what im saying is that everybody should have a right to protect their image and face from being used by somebody else regardless of what job they have.

What I am specifically talking about is about clips of people putting cameras right into the faces of gardas and then posting them on youtube without their permission. This should not happen to anybody regardless if they are a garda or civil servant or anybody. Their is a line between filiming the gardai to ensure that no mistreatment can take place & filiming them so closely that their faces can be seen just for sake of it & to promote ridicule.

Regarding the proposed documentary for the Garda, I think that prime time did one a few years back & I thought it was good. While I like these shows and find them interesting ,I dont think it would be a good idea for the guards to have one. Firstly Ireland is a smaller country .There is a big issue of insurance. The duty of the Garda is to police not to provide TV entertainment for the rest of the nation.A garda shouldnt be under any obligation to participate in these shows. We all know what happens every saturday night in every town - no need for a TV show.

Some people here think that TV shows will give transparency to the Guards - a TV show wouldnt make any difference in any respect- its purpose is entertainment. The GSOC is supposed to look after transparency issues.

Finally, if you are really that interested in the work of the Garda why dont you go and sign up for the garda reserve & see first hand how it really happens instead of sitting comfortably in your armchair.

cushtac · 09-05-2008 12:16pm

anto-t wrote: »

(sending in gardai that arent trained to deal with the press and they got slautered)

Wherever possible members from the Garda Press Office, who have the appropriate training, deal with the press or advise those officers who are dealing with them.

Eru · 09-05-2008 4:26pm

Ojewriej,
If your allowed follow me with a camera then does this also apply the other way? Am I allowed follow you around with a camera? How about nurses? Eircom staff? ESB staff? My bank manager? The list goes on and on until your left with no personal privacy.

You consistantly refer to taxpayers money but then claim your not going down that road. As I said, I probable in some way pay your wages in the same way as you pay mine. Have I a right to see how my money is being spent by you? What are you paid per annum? How long do you get for a break? Take a smoke break or a coffee break? Chat to colleagues?

If you limit it too Gardai on the beat then it still applies to all other occupations in the same way. Should we therefore allow people to follow prison officers around the jail? Stand beside your bank manager or doctor all day while he works?

Lets not forget that by filming Gardai you are seeing Garda operations such as plain clothes, armed units and Surveillance. Then your seeing Gardai coming and going, shift changes, who is coming in and who is going home which therefore increases the risk of Gardai being targeted off duty.

This will then lead to Gardai being identified off duty which poses a risk to their families. This all happens as it is but by allowing cameras to follow Gardai and get nice clear views of their faces, etc it will be drastically increased.

And Im not even going into the basic human right to privacy. Now I know your not talking about doindg this but by allowing Gardai to be filmed and watched this is what will happen because as I said before, criminals will gain much more than your average citizen.

Terrontress · 09-05-2008 4:30pm

How do people ridicule Gardai if they are not doing anything ridiculous?

It seems on youtube that there is a grave problem with the public perception of the Gardai. People pushing them in the lake, talking about gremlins in phone lines, dancing to music. It doesn't seem as prevalent for other forces yet the Gardai are quite a small force.

I think the Gardai should work on improving their public image and not give people something to look at on youtube. The people who are put on television / radio to discuss important matters rarely inspire confidence and mispronounce the simplest of words and use outmoded expressions which leads them open to further ridicule. And these are senior officers!

Open surveillance seems to be a bigger and bigger part of policing. I haven't seen it in Ireland yet but there are vans with cameras on top circling round. If police can video the public with no suggestion of any wrong-doing then why should it not work the other way round?

Gardai behaving in a ridiculous fashion is a separate matter entirely.

ojewriej · 09-05-2008 4:44pm

Karlito

Again, you are making awfull jumps here.

What I'm saying applies to uniformed gardai on the street only. While on duty. Not in the station, not plainclothes, just uniforms in public places.

As for Garda being identified off duty - can't they not be identified off duty without being recorded?

I work for th US company - explain to me how do you contribute to my wages?

Salary scales for all of the Public service jobs are available to public. You can check how much a nurse or a doctor in a public hospital can earn. Same goes for firemen, gardai, from the street sweeper all the way to taoiseach really. Why do you think is that? And why you won't find my salary scale anywhere?

Lilibet · 09-05-2008 5:34pm

If I,a member of the public, am interacting with a Garda on the street,I would take great offence to anyone filming it and saying they have a right to do so because the Gardai are public servants.I would be even more offended if the Garda had to allow it to be filmed.My confidence in the confidentiality of the Garda would be seriously undermined through no fault of the Garda.
I feel that people who like to film the Gardai on the street,would take offence if someone were to film them being treated by a nurse in a hospital.After all a hospital is a public place and nurses are public servants too.

ojewriej · 09-05-2008 6:12pm

Lilibet wrote: »

If I,a member of the public, am interacting with a Garda on the street,I would take great offence to anyone filming it and saying they have a right to do so because the Gardai are public servants.I would be even more offended if the Garda had to allow it to be filmed.My confidence in the confidentiality of the Garda would be seriously undermined through no fault of the Garda.
I feel that people who like to film the Gardai on the street,would take offence if someone were to film them being treated by a nurse in a hospital.After all a hospital is a public place and nurses are public servants too.

If you want privacy and confidentiality- find a private space or go the the Garda Station. Everyone has a right to be and even film in a public space.If you are a focus point of the recording, there are limitations how it can be used. But if you are just part of the background, it can be used without limitations as far as i know.

Lilibet · 09-05-2008 7:06pm

So let me get this right....If I am attacked on the street and go to a Garda I see on the beat to report it,anyone can film the Garda dealing with me in my distress and the Garda can't stop them.!!! They can then post it on the internet under the guise that they were filming the Garda,that the Gardai are public servants and the event was in a public place.Someone please tell me that this cannot possibly be right or just.
As for finding a private place or going to a Garda station to report something,atttacks don't happen conveniently and the first Garda I might see could be one on a public street.

Gavin · 09-05-2008 7:52pm

Have a read of the link I posted previously. It's targeted at photography, but I would imagine that video is legally treated much the same as photography. (Although I do not actually know this)

A relevant quote from the document

Photographs in a Public Place

You are not allowed to harass people in the course of your photography - stalking someone, or repeatedly blocking their way to take a photograph of them could be construed as harassment; simply taking a photograph of them probably won’t. Taking photographs of people in public is generally allowed - however, an exception is made where the subject would have a reasonable expectation of privacy. You’re perfectly entitled to take a photograph of someone walking down the street - but hiding in a tree to take a photo of them in their home may get you into trouble.

In your example above, reporting something may be construed as a reasonable expectation of privacy. Maybe. We need some solicitors.

Terrontress · 09-05-2008 8:00pm

Would you feel so aggrieved if you were assaulted on the street and someone videoed that, which subsequently led to their arrest?

Would you feel aggrieved if you were stopped speeding and video evidence was bought to court and displayed in that most public of places? Or put on a tv show about police doing their job?

Protesters Filming Gardai Vs Garda right to protect their identity

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