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Sunshine, a curious little station

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    #32
    SimonMaher
    Registered Users Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭SimonMaher


    Good thread this, interesting stuff. Only got to read the full thing this evening.

    A few points from the perspective of someone who has part-owned and managed a niche radio station (Phantom) in my time.

    A few people made the point about small stations not being viable in a crowded market like Dublin. Others have replied and debunked that particular myth but just for emphasis here is my 2 cents! When we made our first application for a licence for Phantom we pitched a turnover of about 250k, the second pitched a turnover of about 700k and the third pitched a turnover of well over a million euro. In order to get the BAI to take us seriously at all they needed to hear the big Million Euro plus figures and so, we went into application number 3 with a setup fund of well over 1.5 million Euro. For a station of it's size, that was frankly nuts but a lot of money was floating around Irish radio at the time and raising the capital was as easy as buying a cup of coffee back in 2004.

    The issue arose not immediately, but in 2009 when the economy and the adspend went off a cliff. In the first couple of years of operation, Phantom was doing at least a million in revenue a year which was pretty flippin impressive but by 2009, the tap had stopped running and the station was in big trouble.

    The main issue was that the business model required by the regulator was far too grand for the available market size and for the rainy days that would inevitably arrive. As a man once said, we all partied and Phantom was no exception. We knew what we were doing and took the gamble with our eyes open.

    When the rain comes, businesses of all types have two options. First is to cut the costs, batten down the hatches and ride out the storm and the other is to try to spend its way out. In Phantoms case, no amount of battening could get the business down to a manageable size and what has happened since has been inevitable. Investors dropped out, another investor came in and (to bring this post back to the thread!), the central core of what the station stood for was lost (similar to Country/Mix/Sunshine). The station moved towards the centre in an attempt to bring in the euros and almost diluted itself out of existence. That is a very edited version but does the job until the book is published!

    Earlier this year, I and a number of others took a serious look at the opportunity that the Sunshine licence being advertised presented. A quarterly stats poster on this board provided us with some figures and advertising insight and we made a call not to proceed in the current climate but I am very interested to see that there have been 2 other applications. I'm happy to see there are other applications by the way - new players are healthy for a market, no matter how crowded it is. I just hope that the BAI are willing to accept a business model that is capable of survival for the duration of the licence and that the promoters have the bottle to stick to it. The format they choose may not be fashionable or immediately attractive the big advertising agencies but they will follow the listeners in the end. That really is the only sum that matters.

    Declaration of Interest: I was a founder shareholder and general manager of Phantom from its launch until February 2011 when I was relieved of my duties. The company I was a shareholder in subsequently sold its shares to the remaining shareholders in Phantom. I'm now a shareholder and MD at 8Radio.com

    Simon


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    #33
    Onthe3rdDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    Well in my humble opinion I think there is a difference between Phantom and Sunshine.


    When Phantom began its legal existence it tried to be something different, to serve the market it said it was going to serve. From day one I’m sure that some people would have complained it wasn’t the old Phantom. However, there was a real effort to serve a niche market. Unfortunately the real world got in the way and the station changed to survive.

    The Problem with Sunshine was that is was never the station that it was meant to be. If it had gone down the road of Country and Country and Irish it would (and still could be successful.)

    When the station started I tuned in whenever I was in Dublin. It never seemed to be playing country. It was always one step away. So it quickly fell between a rock and a hard place. Your hard core country fan gave up as did the Country and Irish fans. No one else was going to tune in because of the name Dublin’s Country which to any logical person meant Country music.

    From an outside point of view it looked like management got the licence and then though they’d be able to turn the station into something else that would get them more listeners. The bizarre thing here is that they probably ignored the biggest niche market available.

    They are there, even if you just count people who have moved to Dublin over the last 30 years. Almost every local station has some sort of Country and Irish show, some have quite a bit of country in their daytime playlist, so there’s a real market.

    It’s possibly the only niche market that could support a station in this climate and they’re ignored. They even named the station Sunshine which would not have been the choice of your typical Country and Irish fan in the 80's


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    #34
    Scaramanga 4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Scaramanga 4


    is it true that Dusty Rhodes is bidding for the licence for his all 80s station ?


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    #35
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,905 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    With Dab internet, and Tunein radio today, most can get the American Country stations.

    There is probably still a demographic that can't or won't use internet or smart phones, so there is a niche market out there.

    Country and Irish is the way for this station. The general listenership, if over 50 for example, are not in the same boat as the under 30s spend wise. So the ad agencies should acknowledge that. Sort of like the pink pound or the dinkies lol.

    My OH is a country man and it's his favourite, but even he gets fed up with the same thing over and over.

    Despite how uncool it might seem to some, there is a market out there for country and Irish, with maybe a bit of American thrown in for those not Internet savvy.


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    #36
    Onthe3rdDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    With Dab internet, and Tunein radio today, most can get the American Country stations.

    It's probably the one real Market here that would be slow to use the internet and various apps. Of course that will change but they're one audience that are still buying CD's.

    Any other genre that specialized has a problem, there are hundreds of 80's stations on-line,

    The Country and Irish audience over fifty are far less likely to surf for music. They're also the type that will stick with a station if they like it.


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    #37
    Trick of the Tail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,319 ✭✭✭Trick of the Tail


    They have already submitted a full licence application, as the deadline for applications was last Friday.

    The application is for a 'niche' licence, not necessarily country music. Given Sunshine's history of getting a licence to play country music then trying their hardest to do anything but, it will be interesting to see how this pans out.


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    #38
    Infoanon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭Infoanon


    SimonMaher wrote: »
    The main issue was that the business model required by the regulator was far too grand for the available market size and for the rainy days that would inevitably arrive.

    Has there been any indication that the regulator has changed its stance for new applicants ?
    If anything I would think that the regulator will require higher funded applicants then previous while the really expensive programs ie news , are required by law and so the regulator cannot give any relief.

    As for an 80s station - Sun101 and Real80s proved there is a market - but these were low cost illegal operations with no restrictions on playlists etc


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    #39
    musicboy
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭musicboy


    Originally posted by Infoanon
    Has there been any indication that the regulator has changed its stance for new applicants ? If anything I would think that the regulator will require higher funded applicants then previous while the really expensive programs ie news , are required by law and so the regulator cannot give any relief.

    Why would rules and regulations be a consideration for a future license holder after all Dublin's Country/Country Mix/Sunshine didn't concern themselves too much with rules and regulations and so far that doesn't seem to have done them any harm.


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    #40
    Infoanon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭Infoanon


    musicboy wrote: »
    Why would rules and regulations be a consideration for a future license holder after all Dublin's Country/Country Mix/Sunshine didn't concern themselves too much with rules and regulations and so far that doesn't seem to have done them any harm.

    Sunshine - like all legal operators - have to meet rules on speech%,news content, playlist content etc. - there is no evidence to suggest that they have not met these requirements.

    If you are referring to their licence application and their aspirations - has any station stuck to their initial application - Capital/Rock/FM104 promised a daily soap opera in their application !


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    #41
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Infoanon wrote: »
    Capital/Rock/FM104 promised a daily soap opera in their application !

    You mean the Phoneshow isn't one? :pac:


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    #42
    Radioman007
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Radioman007


    been listening to Sunshine for the last few weeks and seems they have almost given up on the idea of running a radio station.
    Mostly voice-tracked, and badly done. the music is dull and i cant see where it fits in as a niche radio station. There has to be a better option for the BAI than this... two other groups are in for this license and i would be shocked if one of them did not get it..we need a change in the Dublin radio market place and choice will be a big factor..
    As for country music, there is a big demand for it all over Ireland and this is a market the BAI should look at, a country music service covering most if not all the island would do very well.
    I for one will be watching the Easy FM bid as they have been knocking on the door for some time now and look to be the winners if there bid go's ahead.


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    #43
    July Rain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 196 ✭✭July Rain


    http://radionation.ie/2013/11/bai-reveal-competitors-sunshine-license/#more-5307


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    #44
    Radioman44
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭Radioman44


    http://radiotoday.ie/2013/11/country-fm-uradio-bid-for-sunshine-licence/


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    #45
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,003 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    U Radio, according to their application, will play 100% Irish artists, will pre-record all of their output for the first 2 years of broadcast and will have just seven news bulletins a day of 2 1/2 minute, 5 days a week :eek:


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    #46
    July Rain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 196 ✭✭July Rain


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    U Radio, according to their application, will play 100% Irish artists, will pre-record all of their output for the first 2 years of broadcast and will have just seven news bulletins a day of 2 1/2 minute, 5 days a week :eek:

    U radio seems like a joke application


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    #47
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,003 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    July Rain wrote: »
    U radio seems like a joke application

    A very expensive joke. It costs several thousands to lodge an application for a licence, even for the community and niche/specialist licences.


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    #48
    July Rain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 196 ✭✭July Rain


    Martin Block is a real glutton for punishment , you would think after the disaster of 4fm he would be wiser with his money.


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    #49
    Infoanon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭Infoanon


    July Rain wrote: »
    Martin Block is a real glutton for punishment , you would think after the disaster of 4fm he would be wiser with his money.

    Martin Block has an excellent track record in obtaining licences and imho gives Country FM an advantage over the incumbent.

    U FM is arguebly the more realistic application in terms of news/costs etc but I could not see the application being successful.


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    #50
    peterobrien100
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭peterobrien100


    Just read through the 3 x applications ! U Radio is totally out of touch with the modern dynamics of preparing an application / tender document and seem to be only filling the sandwich to tick the box of 3 x applicants.

    Interesting to read the financial perspective where turnover at Sunshine is pitched very high close to 1 million which they should be able to gauge from the current business levels but from a shareholder perspective they need an injection of Euro 320,000 and then 3 x more years before they make a profit. That is not making sense as they already have had the majority of outlays with the existing station.

    Country FM seem to have a more structured approach but the cost numbers look a bit low as well. As they seem to be basing income from holding regular events / nights out such as concerts and awards ceremonies ?

    From a music point of view the Strategy of Country FM will defintely tick the boxes as Sunshine Music presentation is like their playlists a bit of everything with no major genre shining through.

    The most interesting aspect though of these applications is Martin Block (former Radio Nova) was with CEO / Startup Director at 4fm still holds shares and had a very public falling out with the board. The majority of the 4fm board Bay Broadcasting, David Harvey and Sean Ashmore all have sizeable shareholding in Sunshine 106.8.

    As the man says watch this space ! Funny times ahead let the battle comemnce !


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    #51
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Country FM application looks fairly solid on the content side, compared to URadios which... doesn't. I've a feeling URadio's application has lost some things in translation, e.g. some of their responses to headers make absolutely no sense.


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    #52
    Radioman007
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Radioman007


    Interesting note, talking to other station around the city and outside, a lot see country fm plans most likely to successfully win and build a credible station.


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    #53
    Onthe3rdDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    peterobrien100 wrote: »
    J

    Country FM seem to have a more structured approach but the cost numbers look a bit low as well. As they seem to be basing income from holding regular events / nights out such as concerts and awards ceremonies ?

    Smaller stations especially in the west appear to have promotional tie ins like this to generate income. It does appear to be a good if unsexy form of income.


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    #54
    Declan A Walsh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭Declan A Walsh


    Over the years, quite a few people have passed through the studio of Dublin Country 106.8 / Dublin's Country Mix 106.8 / Sunshine 106.8.

    They include: Greg Gaughren (Radio Nova), Ernie Gallagher (Radio Nova), Bob Conway (East Coast FM), Tommy Greene (East Coast FM), Jim McCabe (4FM), Niall Boylan (4FM), Stephen Keogh (KFM), Chris Barry (FM104), Gerry Wilson (ex-2FM), Mike Maloney (ex-Radio Nova (and 2FM) ), Hugh O'Brien (ex-Radio Nova (and 2FM) ), Alan Corcoran (South East Radio), Keith Shanley (Easy FM and Christmas FM), Mike Ryan (Easy FM), David Dennehy and the sadly departed - Noel McCaul, Bob Gallico and Ian McKeever
    https://forumofgames.com/




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    #55
    Radioman007
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Radioman007


    Onthe3rdDay wrote: »
    Smaller stations especially in the west appear to have promotional tie ins like this to generate income. It does appear to be a good if unsexy form of income.

    Think there application says they plan a mix of income from advertising and other income including events and sponsership.
    this is a normal part of a lot of stations. i.e 2fm and highland radio, mid-west radio-radio kerry. by no mean small stations.
    sunshine have lost a lot of money over there time and have never got the product right. hard to see how they are going to change things if they win the license.


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    #56
    Onthe3rdDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    Radioman007 wrote: »
    Think there application says they plan a mix of income from advertising and other income including events and sponsership.
    this is a normal part of a lot of stations. i.e 2fm and highland radio, mid-west radio-radio kerry. by no mean small stations.
    sunshine have lost a lot of money over there time and have never got the product right. hard to see how they are going to change things if they win the license.

    When I said smaller stations I meant Highland Radio and Radio Kerry. They're great stations doing what they say on the tin but have a limited audience because of lack of population. Highland is one that has always had a lot of events tied in with the station, such as tours and concerts.

    County Kerry has a population of about 150,000. Radio Kerry does good business with a sizeable amount of that amount listening in, plus of course some who listen in Cork and Limerick.

    It is a little harder to make a station work on more than just advertising but it can be done.


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    #57
    ford fiesta
    Registered Users Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭ford fiesta


    Sunshine, though repetitive, do play some great music


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    #58
    Proview
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭Proview


    ford fiesta wrote: »
    Sunshine, though repetitive, do play some great music


    Interesting! To say the least ,,,,,,,


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    #59
    Infoanon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭Infoanon


    I was listening to Mellow moments on Sunshine last night, the music was good BUT all the song endings were being cut which imho is not a policy that suits that style of music.
    I assume the programme was voice tracked - 8.30pm - it certainly sounded voice tracked.


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    #60
    gavindowd
    Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭gavindowd


    Infoanon wrote: »
    I was listening to Mellow moments on Sunshine last night, the music was good BUT all the song endings were being cut which imho is not a policy that suits that style of music.
    I assume the programme was voice tracked - 8.30pm - it certainly sounded voice tracked.

    Yep, I'd nearly be certain that it's voice tracked. At one stage they had mellow moments 'till 3am with a presenter!?! - One would wonder if it was ever worth the expense...

    With regards to the song endings, if the show was voice tracked its probable that the automation software (myriad) was chopping off the endings so that they could get to the news at the top of the hour. I believe that sunshine takes communicorps news feed at night which means that their timings have to be spot on to avoid the news being cut-off/ the news being played over the ads. And unfortunately from what I have heard at other stations using Myriad while in automation, the song endings seemingly get hacked-off, and not in a smooth or seamless fashion.


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    #61
    Infoanon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭Infoanon


    gavindowd wrote: »
    Yep, I'd nearly be certain that it's voice tracked. At one stage they had mellow moments 'till 3am with a presenter!?! - One would wonder if it was ever worth the expense...

    With regards to the song endings, if the show was voice tracked its probable that the automation software (myriad) was chopping off the endings so that they could get to the news at the top of the hour. I believe that sunshine takes communicorps news feed at night which means that their timings have to be spot on to avoid the news being cut-off/ the news being played over the ads. And unfortunately from what I have heard at other stations using Myriad while in automation, the song endings seemingly get hacked-off, and not in a smooth or seamless fashion.

    I would agree - either the ending/fade points are incorrect or the software is at fault, every song ending was chopped, there's software in use on other stations that don't chop every track and still hit the news on time. 4FM used to have awful problems with their automation but havd it sorted now.


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