Pats accused of under inflating game balls against the Colts (MOD WARNING #457)

Paully D · 19-01-2015 9:46am #1

Oh dear...

Breaking: A league source tells me the NFL is investigating the possibility the Patriots deflated footballs Sunday night. More to come.

— Bob Kravitz (@bkravitz) January 19, 2015

TheDoctor · 19-01-2015 10:03am

Paully D wrote: »

Oh dear...

Breaking: A league source tells me the NFL is investigating the possibility the Patriots deflated footballs Sunday night. More to come.

— Bob Kravitz (@bkravitz) January 19, 2015

Kick them out!

We'll play the Colts instead, no issue

kryogen · 19-01-2015 11:03am

Tut tut thats old news Paully D

And a load of cock tbf

bruschi · 19-01-2015 11:08am

kryogen wrote: »

Tut tut thats old news Paully D

And a load of cock tbf

any update on it? If the Patriots did indeed do it, then its ridiculously stupid and it would pi$$ me right off that they would do something so dumb that would make damn all difference.

However, if there is nothing to it, then that reporter should be brought to task for easy sensationalist "journalism" and taking the pot shot on the cheating Patriots.

ftse100 · 19-01-2015 11:21am

bruschi wrote: »

any update on it? If the Patriots did indeed do it, then its ridiculously stupid and it would pi$$ me right off that they would do something so dumb that would make damn all difference.

However, if there is nothing to it, then that reporter should be brought to task for easy sensationalist "journalism" and taking the pot shot on the cheating Patriots.

He's a reporter from Indianapolis so some bias there maybe.. It'd be awful if the Patriots actually did deflate the footballs. It surely mustn't be the case. How stupid could one be....

Jolly Red Giant · 19-01-2015 1:17pm

bruschi wrote: »

still think the Pats peaked in week 9?

Yep - they have just done a very good job in maintaining it - and there is still the SB to go.

bruschi · 19-01-2015 1:27pm

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Yep - they have just done a very good job in maintaining it - and there is still the SB to go.

that you expect Seattle to win comfortably.

I hope you are as wrong with that as you were in thinking the Patriots wouldnt get any better since then and that the Broncos would improve significantly.

clear thinking · 19-01-2015 2:48pm

Officials have their hands on the ball at every snap, one soft ball that was replaced would suggest that they didn't think there was a problem during 69 other snaps.

Two great games yesterday and especially entertaining to see the patriots think outside the box on eligible receivers. Seattle though have two weeks to work it out and maybe even use it themselves.

ftse100 · 19-01-2015 2:53pm

clear thinking wrote: »

Officials have their hands on the ball at every snap, one soft ball that was replaced would suggest that they didn't think there was a problem during 69 other snaps.

Two great games yesterday and especially entertaining to see the patriots think outside the box on eligible receivers. Seattle though have two weeks to work it out and maybe even use it themselves.

Has the makings of a great SB I reckon. Hope one team doesn't just thrash the other..

Areyouwell · 19-01-2015 3:25pm

Paully D wrote: »

Oh dear...

Breaking: A league source tells me the NFL is investigating the possibility the Patriots deflated footballs Sunday night. More to come.

— Bob Kravitz (@bkravitz) January 19, 2015

Believe me and it really pains me to say this as a Colts fan. In our last 4 meetings, the Pats have soundly thrashed us by an average 48 - 19. If anyone needed to be deflating balls it was us.

Jolly Red Giant · 19-01-2015 4:53pm

bruschi wrote: »

that you expect Seattle to win comfortably.

Nope - I think it will be a good game - Seattle are not as good as last year and the Pats are playing very well. I still expect the Seahawks to win - but I am expecting a close game (I would like it worth the effort of staying up to watch it)

bruschi wrote: »

I hope you are as wrong with that as you were in thinking the Patriots wouldnt get any better since then and that the Broncos would improve significantly.

I don't think the Pats have got better over the past number of games - they have been playing consistently well since week 9.

The Broncos most certainly had the potential to improve - they didn't - Manning aged rapidly and a rut set in with his inability to adapt to the more balanced offence. End result - the coaches were canned and Manning is probably done. I want Kubiak to set up his West Coast offence and see if Osweiler can become an NFL QB - Manning can't run the WCO and I think it will be a wasted year if he came back. If Os can't do the job then there is quite a few draft prospects that are capable of becoming NFL QBs.

Happy Monday · 19-01-2015 4:58pm

This SB will seal Brady's legacy I am hoping. Win or lose I just hope the Pats come out all guns blazing unlike in the last 2 dances. At least it's not Eli and the Giants we are playing this time.

Knex* · 19-01-2015 5:21pm

Happy Monday wrote: »

This SB will seal Brady's legacy I am hoping. Win or lose I just hope the Pats come out all guns blazing unlike in the last 2 dances. At least it's not Eli and the Giants we are playing this time.

With the recent state of the Giants, I think you'd be fine.

The Super Bowl will be an odd one for me. As a Giants fan, I don't particularly want the Pats to win, even though I am a Brady fan. But when I really think about it, it seems I have a dislike for the Seahawks more.

Why couldn't the Packers have just won last night? :mad::pac:

obriendj · 19-01-2015 6:14pm

Paully D wrote: »

Oh dear...

Breaking: A league source tells me the NFL is investigating the possibility the Patriots deflated footballs Sunday night. More to come.

— Bob Kravitz (@bkravitz) January 19, 2015

Can someone tell me how a deflated ball helps?
and would it not help both teams if they use the same ball?

And what about the dodgy kicking warm-up net the Seahawks provided for the Packers - it was coming apart.

Happy Monday · 19-01-2015 6:28pm

Knex. wrote: »

With the recent state of the Giants, I think you'd be fine.

The Super Bowl will be an odd one for me. As a Giants fan, I don't particularly want the Pats to win, even though I am a Brady fan. But when I really think about it, it seems I have a dislike for the Seahawks more.

Why couldn't the Packers have just won last night? :mad::pac:

Point is Patriots fans will wait before calling this.

It's going to be a bumpy ride!!

JaMarcusHustle · 19-01-2015 7:59pm

obriendj wrote: »

Can someone tell me how a deflated ball helps?
and would it not help both teams if they use the same ball?

And what about the dodgy kicking warm-up net the Seahawks provided for the Packers - it was coming apart.

Easier to catch, easier to hand off etc. Basically it makes ball control a lot easier.

It apparently also makes opposing teams forget how to tackle if last night is anything to go by.

Mr. Guappa · 19-01-2015 8:00pm

obriendj wrote: »

Can someone tell me how a deflated ball helps?
and would it not help both teams if they use the same ball?

And what about the dodgy kicking warm-up net the Seahawks provided for the Packers - it was coming apart.

My uneducated guess would be that a deflated ball would be an advantage to a run-heavy team, as it would have more impact on a team heavily favouring the pass.

The explanation is pretty obvious in any case: The huge, godzilla-like hands of Develin and Solder forced the air from the ball on their TD grabs.

JaMarcusHustle · 19-01-2015 8:48pm

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

My uneducated guess would be that a deflated ball would be an advantage to a run-heavy team, as it would have more impact on a team heavily favouring the pass.

Each team uses their own balls though, so Indy would not have been affected if the allegations are true.

poldebruin · 19-01-2015 9:19pm

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

Each team uses their own balls though, so Indy would not have been affected if the allegations are true.

...well they would have been affected in that they would not have had the advantage of using a deflated ball that is easier to throw and hold onto.

Even were they found to be slightly underinflated, how can the NFL prove intent? (and would they even want to?)

Son Of A Vidic · 20-01-2015 4:50am

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

My uneducated guess would be that a deflated ball would be an advantage to a run-heavy team, as it would have more impact on a team heavily favouring the pass.

An under inflated ball would have no bearing on the run game. But it would effect a QBs grip on the ball, so it would have a marginal effect on the passing game. But one needs to apply some basic logic here. Brady is the best bad weather QB in the league and possibly of all time. So did he need an underinflated ball to beat the Colts? Well recent games suggest not. He also certainly has the best win ratio of all time in December and during the playoffs.

Then we ask ourselves, who were the Pats playing last night? The Colts. Now what is the Colts record against the Pats in recent meetings? Well it's as follows - 59-24 (2012), 43-22(2013), 42-20(2014) and 47-7(2014) = an average score of 47-18. Poor young Luck is 0-4 against Brady and all he has ever experienced while playing the Pats, is being comprehensively beaten and outplayed.

So that average scoreline in the last 4 meetings, should speak for itself. All balls are inspected and signed off on before the game by the Officials. They are also inspected throughout the game on a continuing basis and between snaps. Hence the reason one ball was taken out of play and that was in the the 3rd quarter. I don't think the Pats O line needed help last night from an under inflated football, as they bulldozed the Colts defensive front out of their way. It's a complete non-issue imo.

Former NFL official Jim Daopoulos, in an interview with ESPN on Monday morning, explained the process in which footballs are managed. Two hours and 15 minutes before each game, officials inspect 12 footballs from each team and put a mark on them to indicate they meet the proper requirements and are good for usage. Then those footballs are given to the ball attendant.

There also is a second set of six footballs, used specifically for the kicking game, that are marked appropriately and remain in the possession of officials at all times.

"Officials check balls as they go into the game, and if the ball doesn't feel perfect, they can throw it out," Daopoulos said. "There is always the possibility that balls can lose air due to the conditions."

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12193345/nfl-investigating-whether-new-england-patriots-deflated-footballs-indianapolis-colts?ex_cid=espnapi_public

TO. · 20-01-2015 5:45am

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

An under inflated ball would have no bearing on the run game. But it would effect a QBs grip on the ball, so it would have a marginal effect on the passing game. But one needs to apply some basic logic here. Brady is the best bad weather QB in the league and possibly of all time. So did he need an underinflated ball to beat the Colts? Well recent games suggest not. He also certainly has the best win ratio of all time in December and during the playoffs.

Not entirely true when it comes to the running game. It has been known in the past that teams deflated balls to help the runner maintain control of it better. The softer the ball the more grip one has of keeping it in their arms.

All of this talk of the Pats tampering with a ball is sheer nonsense. It is well known around both college and Pro football that QBs especially like to "weather" balls to their personal preference so its easier to throw and grip. Basically waring down the ball so its no longer "new"

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/sports/football/eli-mannings-footballs-are-months-in-making.html?_r=0

Some exerpts from the above link:

There are no new balls thrown around in an N.F.L. game. A new ball, despised for its sheen and waxy gloss, is as popular as a late hit.
For every N.F.L. game, each team has 12 to 20 balls that it has meticulously groomed and prepared according to the needs of its starting quarterback. The balls, brushed and primed using various obvious and semisecret techniques, bear the team logo and are switched out from sideline to sideline depending on which team is on offense.

That means that from series to series, the ball in play can feel wholly different, but each team’s quarterback always has a ball prepped by his equipment staff the way he likes it.

Eli Manning explaining this:

“I want a brand new ball that feels like it’s 10 years old,” Manning said Wednesday. “You want it to feel like it’s been in your house for 10 years, where you’ve been playing Saturday afternoon games with it for a long time.
“I want it broken in but it should still have nubs on it. The process has gotten better as we’ve changed some schemes and techniques. We’ve honed in what works.”

So anyone wanting to point fingers at the Pats because a routine check is happening on footballs that the refs passed fit for the game might want to look closer to home also.

But hey for those who want to call our team cheats fire right ahead nothing we aint used to at this point.

Son Of A Vidic · 20-01-2015 7:50am

TO. wrote: »

Not entirely true when it comes to the running game. It has been known in the past that teams deflated balls to help the runner maintain control of it better. The softer the ball the more grip one has of keeping it in their arms.

I am aware of those practices, but just looking at it from a mechanics point of view. A QBs only area of contact/grip on the ball, is with the palm of his hand. Whereas a RB will use his hand, forearm & intercostal area to secure the ball. Then of course they can use the opposing hand/forearm to secure & cradle the ball. So based on that, for me it's more of an issue for a QB than a RB. Like playing with a glove or no glove, it may give better grip, but if you're playing crap & being outplayed then I don't think it makes any difference.

TO. · 20-01-2015 8:05am

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I am aware of those practices, but just looking at it from a mechanics point of view. A QBs only area of contact/grip on the ball, is with the palm of his hand. Whereas a RB will use his hand, forearm & intercostal area to secure the ball. Then of course they can use the opposing hand/forearm to secure & cradle the ball. So based on that, for me it's more of an issue for a QB than a RB. Like playing with a glove or no glove, it may give better grip, but if you're playing crap & being outplayed then I don't think it makes any difference.

My point is it was a tactic used in the past over the many years in the NFL and football in general. The premise being cradling a fully pumped ball is hard to knock out of a ball carriers arms but trying to knock a ball out that is now softer and now more snug where you thread the needle on the point of the ball with your fingers the softer ball is more secure.

Many of the points made by the media is that the ball deflation was to aid the running game and grip of the ball in general due to the bad weather. Also the points raised that the ball is easier to catch. QB wise it will help their grip like the RB and WR but I don't buy into the fact the ball is easier to throw as I have seen first hand QBs throwing soft footballs and its not pretty especially when windy. The more air you take out the more the ball spirals out of control.

A Soft ball may help a QBs grip but will throw like sh1t hence why as per my article above QBs dont tamper with the density of the ball but play around with the grip of the ball. Modern QBs dont need to make any adjustments to the density like Eli above they have guys dedicated to weathering the ball.

Son Of A Vidic · 20-01-2015 8:45am

TO. wrote: »

My point is it was a tactic used in the past over the many years in the NFL and football in general. The premise being cradling a fully pumped ball is hard to knock out of a ball carriers arms but trying to knock a ball out that is now softer and now more snug where you thread the needle on the point of the ball with your fingers the softer ball is more secure.

Many of the points made by the media is that the ball deflation was to aid the running game and grip of the ball in general due to the bad weather. Also the points raised that the ball is easier to catch. QB wise it will help their grip like the RB and WR but I don't buy into the fact the ball is easier to throw as I have seen first hand QBs throwing soft footballs and its not pretty especially when windy. The more air you take out the more the ball spirals out of control.

A Soft ball may help a QBs grip but will throw like sh1t hence why as per my article above QBs dont tamper with the density of the ball but play around with the grip of the ball. Modern QBs dont need to make any adjustments to the density like Eli above they have guys dedicated to weathering the ball.

Tbh, we probably shouldn't even be giving this non-issue any oxygen. so I'll share Gronks thoughts on the matter....

Knex* · 20-01-2015 9:56am

Had never really thought about the ball thing, and having them worn in to suit your quarterback, etc. Pretty interesting.

kryogen · 20-01-2015 10:59pm

former supervisor of NFL referees Jim Daopoulis on to discuss the situation. Does he believe the Patriots are in trouble?

"I don't believe so. I think this is a non issue," Daopoulis said. "Completely a non-issue. I just can't imagine something like this happening.

"Basically what happens is the officials get the footballs before the game. They mark the footballs, they check the pressure of the footballs. There are so many issues going on, so many people out on the field. People that come out of the office in New York that are just walking around the field. And I don't believe ball boy that is making $10 an hour is going to stand there with a needle in his hand taking air out of the ball. And how do they know which ball they're gonna send in there? And basically if a referee or an official doesn't like the feel of the ball, he's going to throw it out. So I just think it's a non-issue right now."

The video where he is interviewed is here http://www.csnne.com/blog/patriots-talk/ex-ref-deflategate-non-issue

nerd69 · 21-01-2015 6:30am

im still unsure of just how big an impact it would have but the nfl have confirmed that 11 of 12 pats ball where under-inflated by 2lbs.

this is a major stick people will use to beat the organisation either way theres still people quiestioning earlier superbowls due to spygate and as insignificant as this would seem giving how the game went its a stigma that will stick with the organisation for a while

poldebruin · 21-01-2015 7:58am

Well I wasn't going to comment on it before the investigation is complete, but if the reports that are coming out this morning are true and the integrity of the game/league is called into doubt, then I think there will be (and should be) severe sanctions coming New England's way.

What will be interesting is where the order to under inflate the balls (break the rules) came from; Belicheck? Brady? A rogue ball boy? As with the Saints and Bountygate, the league may claim the cover up/conspiracy is the main issue here as opposed to what rule was broken.

And if the figure of two lbs is true, that is a seriously soft football - it's no wonder a Colts player felt it. Now why the officials did not, even though they are handling both Patriots and Colts footballs - towelling them off etc. is strange to say the least.

21-01-2015 8:29am

Yeah.

In all the posts above about the advantages to be gained by it and how it affects the ball, I was wondering one thing only. Did it happen or not, and if it did, did it take the ball outside the regulation size. If it happened, it doesn't matter what we think are the advantages, there is an issue. If they were still within regulations, the issue should be minor, like a soccer team that let's the grass grow longer or waters the pitch a lot before a certain game, it's gamesmanship but not wrong. But if regulation sizes and specs were broken there is a problem.

TO. · 21-01-2015 9:31am

Posted this in the Pats thread. Rules for those who don't know them with regards the ball.

So at its full point the ball should have the air pressure of 12.5 to 13.5 pounds per square inch. According to the sources the Patriots 11 footballs were 2 pounds too light.

Here is the rule on the ball for what its worth.

Section 1
BALL DIMENSIONS
The Ball must be a “Wilson,” hand selected, bearing
the signature of the Commissioner of the League, Roger Goodell.
The ball shall be made up of an inflated (12 1/2 to 13 1/2 pounds) urethane bladder enclosed in a pebble grained, leather case
(natural tan color) without corrugations of any kind. It shall have the form of a prolate spheroid and the size and weight shall be: long axis, 11 to 11 1/4 inches; long circumference, 28 to 28 1/2 inches; short circumference, 21 to 21 1/4 inches; weight, 14 to 15 ounces.

The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications. A pump is to be furnished by the home club, and the balls shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the ball attendant just prior to the start of the game.

Section 2
BALL SUPPLY
Each team will make 12 primary balls available for testing by the Referee two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of
the game to meet League requirements. The home team will also make 12 backup balls available for testing in all
stadiums. In addition, the visitors, at their discretion, may bring 12 backup balls to be tested by the Referee for games
held in outdoor stadiums. For all games, eight new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer to
the Referee, will be opened in the officials’ locker room two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game.

These balls are to be specially marked by the Referee and used exclusively for the kicking game.

In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper
ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball. Any such circumstances must be reported to the
Commissioner.
In case of rain or a wet, muddy, or slippery field, a playable ball shall be used at the request of t
he offensive team’s center.
The Game Clock shall not stop for such action (unless undue delay occurs).
Note: It is the responsibility of the home team to furnish playable balls at all times by attendants from either side of the playing
field

OU812 · 21-01-2015 9:36am

I think the colts fans should be pushing for either a rematch or to take the patriots place in the Super Bowl.

If they have a rematch & still don't go through fair enough, but there should be a severe penalty to the patriots.

How many other games did this happen in that wasn't spotted?

Pats accused of under inflating game balls against the Colts (MOD WARNING #457)

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