Think differently? Think again!

crockholm · 21-06-2014 1:00pm

donegal__road wrote: »

spot on crockholm.

From the Max Weber book, the Protestant Work Ethic...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic

Indeed, just don't tell the Belgians,Luxemburgers,French,Austrians,Bavarians,Southern Dutch and the other solvent Nations,provinces and areas with Catholic majorities that they are indeed catholic, or else they will all spend their Life savings on scratch cards !
:cool:

conorhal · 21-06-2014 1:08pm

strobe wrote: »

Maybe its a generational thing, or maybe a city versus more rural thing, I dunno, but I seemed to have slipped through the net of this 'think differently, think again' Ireland my entire life. Since I was a kid, right through to the age of 30 now, the most prevalent attitude I've experienced from Irish people towards myself and others has been 'if you're sound I like you, if you're not I don't' and its seems to apply to women, immigrants, all races, religions, creeds, sexualities, political persuasions and hair styles. I've come across people that weren't like that of course but they were very much the exception rather than the norm.

Have I lived my life in some weird and rare micro-climate of Irish attitude? Am I the only one here with this kind of experience of growing up and living in this country? Have I been just that abnormally lucky?

No, I'd say you're much like everybody else to be honest.
The 'groupthink' these days is largely liberal, so it's good groupthink, as opposed to that nasty horrible bad groupthink of the past.
Most groupthink in this country is largey created and encouraged by the media, be it creating a 'buy now before it's too late' consensus on property, or it's obsessive focus on past wrongs. The collective self-loathing the media encourages is one of the worst aspects of this nation.

21-06-2014 1:10pm

Barely There wrote: »

I agree with this fully.

What should we do instead?

Well they say greater diversity in groups means a less chance of group think occurring so that could be one suggestion

conorhal · 21-06-2014 1:19pm

Magaggie wrote: »

Self reflection/constructive self criticism at a national level is a good thing, an important thing; we have seen the results of this not being done/allowed - never good.
But this article is not self reflection/constructive self criticism - it is whingeing. It is bitching about everyone else who's Irish but the author somehow exempting herself... despite also being Irish. It is blamey. It is judgemental. It is arrogant.
It's the same as the "Irish people are sheeple" troglodytery of the reader comments to TheJournal.ie/Independent.ie/Facebook groups (and that is TOTAL groupthink) - just articulated better.

And I am a woman born and raised in Ireland - and I suspect a much older woman than Sinead. News to me that Ireland is a bad place to be a woman.
There was a time when Ireland wasn't a good place for a lot of women (although plenty of that was due to fellow women) but I think they'd find it laughable for someone to say things are as bad today.
Homophobia and racism - they exist in Ireland for sure. Look at these pages alone. But endemic in society? Perhaps pockets of Ireland, but I think it's unfair to say Ireland is a racist or homophobic society.

Some people however like looking for/manufacturing persecution. Maybe she grew up in a backwater but that doesn't represent all Irish people.

It does seem to be the case too that po-faced right-on people who are on a permanent crusade to find offence, have no issue with blanket slatings of people of their own nationality (not constructive criticism - blanket slatings; it should be easy to tell the difference) oblivious to the irony. Possibly because they think anything other than hostility towards their own country is what's required in order to look non nationalistic. This doesn't just apply to Irish people.
"Self flagellating", "self loathing" are spot-on phrases. "Self deprecating" - no; that's actually laudable and endearing.

Well said. The Guardian is the liberals cilice.

RDM_83 again · 21-06-2014 1:34pm

Copyerselveson wrote: »

That explains it all of course. It's the Brits bashing the plucky poor old Irish. Always is.

(apart from the fact that the author of the article is Irish and Roy Greenslade is one of the most pro-Irish and knowledgeable commentators about Ireland in the British media)

Roy Greenslade is simply giving her a platform its not his article. If you actually read my post you would see I was talking about the Guardian specifically since the Crash, the Telegraph which would be considered pretty negative towards Ireland is more balanced these days.

Copyerselveson wrote: »

The problem is when someone holds up a mirror to our faces, sometimes what we see back isn't all that pretty. There has long been a culture of groupthink in Ireland and who hasn't heard the expression "whose yer man?" at any time. Ireland remains a stiflingly conformist society. The long story of emigration from our country isn't simply an economic one, many of those who can't or won't conform simply leave.

And conversely Ireland both rural and urban is chock full of 'local characters' and eccentrics, so much so its actually another stereotype. What there is and its often dismissed as begrudgery is a lack of tolerance for pretension.

She makes a few cliche points that other better writers have developed and analysed and mixes it with a healthy dose of self loathing here is some choice quotes.

Ireland remains a society with a deeply small sense of self. It is a sort of weak-minded teenager desperate to keep up with the status quo. It's not what's said. It's who has said it.

Difference is confusing and thus threatening

Female sexuality is still feared. "Nice girls" don't enjoy sex.

Poverty continues to be dehumanised. It is commonplace for middle class people to disdain travellers and to describe working class people as "knackers.

She is writing this in the UK, Ireland does have deep flaws in its treatment of the vulnerable but the treatment of class and poverty is miles better than the UK, take a look at the two social welfare systems of a nice example in the ROI you get a livable amount of money and plenty of opportunities for retraining, in the UK its a pittance even with their lower living costs and far less opportunity for training, until recently the UK equivalent of Jobsbridge was actually involuntary which says it all.
I have never ever heard anybody say working class people are knackers, people judge behavior that is anti-social and scumbagy as the mark of knackers not the fact they are in a blue-collar job.

The article overall reads that she must have spent her life in Ireland in a 1980's small midlands town before directly transitioning to the London Meeja scene

Shakespeare's Sister · 21-06-2014 2:01pm

sock puppet wrote: »

You're absolutely right. Anyone who disagrees with the blogger is engaging in groupthink.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY

strobe wrote: »

Maybe its a generational thing, or maybe a city versus more rural thing

I'd say very much so. I can imagine someone being pissed off about attitudes growing up in a rural village, but to ascribe this to the entire population of Ireland is just as smallminded, yet that kind of smallmindedness is ok, or something.

suicide_circus · 21-06-2014 2:03pm

The hairshirt is making a comeback!

crockholm · 21-06-2014 2:09pm

Magaggie wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY

I'd say very much so. I can imagine someone being pissed off about attitudes growing up in a rural village, but to ascribe this to the entire population of Ireland is just as smallminded, yet that kind of smallmindedness is ok, or something.

And yet you managed to take her condescending veiw of Ireland and use it on rural Ireland yourself.Bravo.

Shakespeare's Sister · 21-06-2014 2:09pm

old hippy wrote: »

I see. Speak out of turn, dissent and you're sent packing... sounds familiar....

Nobody has been "sent packing". Their point was: if you think Ireland is a terrible oppressive place for women and people who are different, spend time in a country where that's *actually* the case, in order to develop a bit of perspective.

Lots of Ireland *isn't* great for people who are a bit different, but to pretend all of it is that bad, is just another form of prejudice.

Shakespeare's Sister · 21-06-2014 2:11pm

crockholm wrote: »

And yet you managed to take her condescending veiw of Ireland and use it on rural Ireland yourself.Bravo.

Hardly a leap to conclude parts of rural Ireland are not open to difference? It's not meant as an insult.

crockholm · 21-06-2014 2:15pm

Magaggie wrote: »

Hardly a leap to conclude parts of rural Ireland are not open to difference? It's not meant as an insult.

Assume on,but do please explain to me how being seperated by the width of a brick from your neighbour can inherently change you and your whole weltanschauung?

Shakespeare's Sister · 21-06-2014 2:17pm

crockholm wrote: »

Assume on,but do please explain to me how being seperated by the width of a brick from your neighbour can inherently change you and your whole weltanschauung?

Arguing for the sake of it/looking for offence tbh.
You know full well there is a difference in outlooks between cities and very remote areas, generally speaking.

crockholm · 21-06-2014 2:26pm

Magaggie wrote: »

Arguing for the sake of it/looking for offence tbh.
You know full well there is a difference in outlooks between cities and very remote areas, generally speaking.

I'm not.I'm just challenging your assumptions about what rural people are/Think.

I very much disagree about the different Outlooks from an urban/rural divide-we all pretty much want the same things at the end of the day.

I just expected a Little more nous from an intelligent poster such as yourself.

Shakespeare's Sister · 21-06-2014 2:31pm

crockholm wrote: »

I'm not.I'm just challenging your assumptions about what rural people are/Think.

I very much disagree about the different Outlooks from an urban/rural divide-we all pretty much want the same things at the end of the day.

I just expected a Little more nous from an intelligent poster such as yourself.

I'm weary from the tedious "We Irish are so backward", "Ireland is SO parochial" stuff, believe me, so I don't make such observations without putting thought into them. But people who are, for instance, gay have had a harder time if growing up in a rural area or country town - that's why they move to a city as soon as possible and tend to be a lot happier.

crockholm · 21-06-2014 2:36pm

Magaggie wrote: »

I'm weary from the tedious "We Irish are so backward", "Ireland is SO parochial" stuff, believe me, so I don't make such observations without putting thought into them. But people who are, for instance, gay have had a harder time if growing up in a rural area or country town - that's why they move to a city as soon as possible and tend to be a lot happier.

Or maybe because the gay scene in Lyrecrompane isn't up to much.

Balmed Out · 21-06-2014 2:40pm

The notion that rural Ireland is this narrow minded, bigoted redneck utopia is in my experience very far of the mark. Moved to west cork some time ago and am constantly surprised by how open minded and accepting most people are. West Cork may however be not the norm but still I imagine theres plenty areas the same.

You will have plenty of people who may be ignorant but as soon as they meet a gay black muslim or whatever all preconceptions are forgotten and they might even become bussom buddies. People do like to gossip but they like new gossip, someone comes out people chat for two days then someone crashes a car and they switch to the new news.
Ive been at house parties with local farmers etc mingling with ex-pats from england, germany, switzerland etc. Most of the ex-pats would be fairly alternative but they all mingle and get along grand. Most obvious difference being locals are drinking while non locals are smoking spliffs as well as drinking.

Anything new is commented on and then very quickly accepted. They seem far more interested in working out a six degrees of separation between people then any kind of scandalous gossip.

Shakespeare's Sister · 21-06-2014 2:44pm

Balmed Out wrote: »

The notion that rural Ireland is this narrow minded, bigoted redneck utopia is in my experience very far of the mark.

Yeh it's certainly not applicable to all of rural Ireland. West Cork is particularly bohemian though.

Balmed Out · 21-06-2014 2:51pm

Magaggie wrote: »

Yeh it's certainly not applicable to all of rural Ireland. West Cork is particularly bohemian though.

It is but it still shows how rural Irish people react to different people. 50 years ago I imagine it was the same as every other rural area. Far more inquisitive and wanting to know everything about everybody then interested in condemning anybody for pretty much anything. There may be a smirk about the yellow dress the local crossdresser was wearing last week doing the shopping but no one would move over or ignore him in the local pub. The nosiness which is a little annoying at first kind of bonds people together into a fairly tight accepting community as at the end of the day no ones perfect and without fault.

crockholm · 21-06-2014 3:03pm

Balmed Out wrote: »

It is but it still shows how rural Irish people react to different people. 50 years ago I imagine it was the same as every other rural area. Far more inquisitive and wanting to know everything about everybody then interested in condemning anybody for pretty much anything. There may be a smirk about the yellow dress the local crossdresser was wearing last week doing the shopping but no one would move over or ignore him in the local pub. The nosiness which is a little annoying at first kind of bonds people together into a fairly tight accepting community as at the end of the day no ones perfect and without fault.

That has been my experience of rural Ireland too,but Christ,try telling that to someone from a Town of 10,000+,and they call bs on it and still tell me it's all twitching curtains, yellow teeth and mass on sunday with an all powerful priest telling us what to do.

And as far as I'm convinced,much of the article in the op is a crock of shyte

Grayson · 21-06-2014 3:07pm

conorhal wrote: »

It's the 'everything is shoite, we're shoite, nothing changes because... shoite' liberal self-flagilation groupthink of that article that I find it hard to deal with.

they're as annoying as the "everything grand" crowd.

Grayson · 21-06-2014 3:08pm

Magaggie wrote: »

Nobody has been "sent packing". Their point was: if you think Ireland is a terrible oppressive place for women and people who are different, spend time in a country where that's *actually* the case, in order to develop a bit of perspective.

You mean a place like Ireland in the 1900's

:pac:

Shakespeare's Sister · 21-06-2014 3:19pm

Grayson wrote: »

You mean a place like Ireland in the 1900's :pac:

Or Ireland even later.

kupus · 21-06-2014 3:23pm

Balmed Out wrote: »

The notion that rural Ireland is this narrow minded, bigoted redneck utopia is in my experience very far of the mark. Moved to west cork some time ago and am constantly surprised by how open minded and accepting most people are..

Ah you see thats west cork, and the biggest thing on the mind of a person from west cork is how come meath can get a west meath, and cork cant.
It takes up their whole lives and even when they venture out of west cork the first thing they'll tell people is they're from west cork, not cork. You never have to ask. Its like people telling you they go to trinity, or they own an iphone. Its a thing you never ask but never mind you're going to be told anyway. Even if the subject never comes up.
Open minded you say. A one track mind in support of a county west cork I say.

!!!!

jimgoose · 21-06-2014 6:30pm

Balmed Out wrote: »

The notion that rural Ireland is this narrow minded, bigoted redneck utopia is in my experience very far of the mark...

For sure. Rural Ireland is indeed a redneck utopia - you should see my farmer's tan right now - but it is neither particularly bigoted nor narrow-minded. Rural people tend to be interested in folk, as "folk" are relatively rare. Beyond that, you'll find a healthy blend of neighbourliness and "mind your own gods-dam business".

jimgoose · 21-06-2014 6:31pm

kupus wrote: »

Ah you see thats west cork, and the biggest thing on the mind of a person from west cork is how come meath can get a west meath, and cork cant.
It takes up their whole lives and even when they venture out of west cork the first thing they'll tell people is they're from west cork, not cork. You never have to ask. Its like people telling you they go to trinity, or they own an iphone. Its a thing you never ask but never mind you're going to be told anyway. Even if the subject never comes up.
Open minded you say. A one track mind in support of a county west cork I say.

!!!!

Aroo floggin' dat fukkan Treaty of 'oors agin??

griffdaddy · 29-06-2014 11:15am

I noticed she's amended the end of the article to something a little less extreme

Think differently? Think again!

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