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Ireland to go down the Electric car route?

12467

Comments

  • #152
    cianof
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭cianof


    Whatever about the politics on our island. The world will will progress no matter what we do here. :)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2009/1028/1224257550001.html

    There's loads of recharge points already in place, keep an eye out for them they look like this.

    socket.jpg

    It's not about dominance at all. No one is suggesting that there be all electric cars, just a %.

    Electric cars won't suite everyones driving requirements.


  • #153
    akkadian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭akkadian


    cianof wrote: »
    Whatever about the politics on our island. The world will will progress no matter what we do here. :)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2009/1028/1224257550001.html

    There's loads of recharge points already in place, keep an eye out for them they look like this.

    socket.jpg

    It's not about dominance at all. No one is suggesting that there be all electric cars, just a %.

    Electric cars won't suite everyones driving requirements.

    Oil proces are rising. They are only going to continue to rise from here on in. There'a strong chance of OPEC countries defaulting in 2010.

    Ignore that nay-sayer plank that Miriam O'Callgahan had on today (the bearded one)
    Classic European negativity. Something has to be done. Hydrogen powered cars aren't developed enough. Bio-ethanol is not developed enough in Ireland but it's growing.

    This is a positive thing.


  • #154
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    I'ld like to see people in their pathetic electric vehicles doing motorway journeys.
    I bet they'll all be doing nothing more than 80kmph as to not use up all the battery juice and end up with a dead battery in the middle of the city!

    I'ld be up for electric cars in Ireland only if they plan to build it on the infrastructure I proposed in a thread here a while ago.

    Lemme find it, here this one: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055877174


  • #155
    mumblin deaf ro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 604 ✭✭✭mumblin deaf ro


    There is an interesting discussion on this here:

    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/04/13/dublin-to-cork-in-10-hours/

    (Richard Tol is the hairy guy who was arguing with Eamon Ryan on prime time this evening.)

    The sooner electric cars are being sold/marketed on their driving characteristics rather than their environmental/tax incentive attractions the better. All things considered i think electric vehicles are a model for leasing - maybe short-term leasing on a 3/6/12 month basis - rather than buying. This gets over the hump of people worrying about repairs, resale values, technology becoming obsolete etc. People might experiment with them for a few months or try them before buying a new car. It's not a commercial prospect in the short run, but would help break down any resistance to electric cars.


  • #156
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    To my knowledge there's not currently 1 recharge point in the whole of Dublin, the Greens will also be decimated at the next elections, the dominance of the electric car is a long long way away in this country :D
    http://www.esb.ie/main/press/press-release399.jsp


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  • #157
    Sikie
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭Sikie


    I have serious problem with our over priced electricity provider ESB dabbling in this. Their is a large capital investment required which is only coming from one source over inflated prices generating so call "profits" to invest in green energy. Wind energy comendable in terms of reducing dependance on fossil fuels is leaking money from this economy to the providers of equipment. I am not says we should ignore this problem but I am concerned about the fit for our country. Combustion technology is advancing just as rapidly 1.0L 3 cylinder diesel engines are in the pipeline to match the perfromance we would have associated with 2.0L engines of today. We should as a country be trying to develop biofuel solutions to feed next geneeration diesel engines. This could benefit the farming community and holders of small pieces of land who could grow fuel for themselves or sell their surplus.


  • #158
    Seweryn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,487 ✭✭✭Seweryn


    Sikie wrote: »
    We should as a country be trying to develop biofuel solutions to feed next geneeration diesel engines. This could benefit the farming community and holders of small pieces of land who could grow fuel for themselves or sell their surplus.
    There are two problems - we do not have enough land to grow the crops to provide the (bio)fuel even for 20% of our cars and secondly - (modern) Diesel engines are not designed to be run on that stuff.


  • #159
    Sikie
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭Sikie


    These 2 points need to be viewed as 2 real opportunities to develop “smart economy” solutions and put a broad spectrum of jobs in place from high end research to labouring as opposed to barriers.

    1) In relation to land we step back and harness skills within Teagasc around 2 research and development streams identifying suitable plants to be genetically modified to boost oil yield that suit Irish conditions and a second research stream around economically viable production technologies again to maximise yield.
    Moving forward with incentivising land to grow bio-fuel crops provides rural communities with another source of economy activity which diversifies the energy supply. Same as putting in charging points is building infrastructure.
    Even small pieces of land around non-farming houses could be utilised. Local contactors with similar equipment and skills as today could plant and harvest crops to be supplied as raw materials to fuel processing plants. Therefore x tons of raw material supplied = y litres of fuel to the suppliers.

    2) In relation diesel engines not being designed to run on the stuff is because it has not been forced onto the agenda. Existing engines vary widely between manufacturers on similar engines in terms of performance and emission depending on what technology is on board and/or specific design purposes there are such as hitting artificial emissions targets around tax bands. Developing the combustion technology to cater for both normal and bio-diesel is a potential niche area for the research and development in the green smart economy


  • #160
    John Brady 1
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭John Brady 1


    For information on the deployment of electric cars in Ireland, go to pluginireland.ie, Ireland's only independent and free electric vehicle resource guide.


  • #161
    Prabhu Deva
    Closed Accounts Posts: 75 ✭✭Prabhu Deva


    'scorthy wrote: »
    The government "say" that they (we) must invest in R&D to develop cleaner cars yet several major motor companies have come together with EV projects; how can an Irish company, even with R&D funding expect to compete as these guys have several years of a head start!
    http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0403/cars.html

    There is an Irish company manufacturing EV for the Dublin metropolitan area: http://www.greenaer.ie

    I like the look of those Tesla cars :eek:

    thats not an irish company making them. they are made in India and they are terrible


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  • #162
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    If Ireland gets a factory to Design, Develop and Build these Vehicles then Yes.
    I fully support it

    What will most likely happen though is that we will end up giving a Discount (such as the scrapping schema or similar) to people who change from fossil fueled cars to Eclectically powered cars.
    This is a Stupid Idea and is basically giving money to other countries.
    we wont be at the fore front of anything. We'll just be the test bed/ guinea pigs.

    I believe Electrical cars are the way forward but we do not have enough power stations in this country to support these Cars. We would need at least 3 more fossil fuel power plants (not going to happen) or a Nuclear power plant (we have legislation in place that means we cannot even open this topic for debate until 2015 I think, so that's defo out) which leave us with renewable energy. Of which the only design's proven so far are wind and hydro electric.
    We know the Greens love wind farms so be prepared to see ALOT more of these Eye-sores in the next couple of years.

    Electric cars also have quite a big problem at the moment... you cannot hear them. I would bet the road accident rate will go up when these cars start entering the market.

    just my 2 cents


  • #163
    mb1725
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭mb1725


    Then you have the electricity price increases and levies to come: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0810/1224276470844.html How long will it be before we see an excise tax on electricty?


  • #164
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    The introduction of electric cars in inevitable.

    I think it would be ideal if electric cars would be exempt from road tax/motor tax and had low insurance, free parking, free recharge stations, maybe even some government incentives to buy them like grants.

    This way you can afford to have the electric car for the daily work commute which is the only thing it can do. And for the longer journeys you can keep a normal car and I wouldn't mind paying a higher motor tax then. The people who can afford to keep a normal car along with a electric car, shouldn't mind paying more tax (for the maintenance of the roads). As when the country switches to electric, it'll take away all the unnecessary cars from the lesser used (and more interesting roads) as they'll only be used on the daily commuter routes.

    This way a lot of roads will be freed of motorists and the roads will be only for people who decide to pay more for the luxury of owning a normal car and going for long drives. So driving once again will become something of a recreational activity rather than a daily chore.

    The majority of people who don't like driving (and only do so because they have to) will have their electric cars to go to work and can use public transport if they want to occasionally travel long distance across the country.

    The few who like driving, will have the electric car for daily commute and a normal car for a spot of recreational driving pleasure. And you don't have to be extremely rich to avail this pleasure either as although you would be paying more to keep your normal car, you'ld be spending less to maintain it as you'll be driving it a lot less, only occasionally. This way the low cost of maintenance should balance the high price of petrol and the high taxes of owning such a luxury.

    Think about it. The electric car might just save the petrol car industry!
    Instead of producing tons of boring petrol hatchbacks, the car manufacturers can shift to producing tons of boring electric cars and the electric car industry can help support the manufacturers to build proper interesting petrol cars. Also fewer petrol cars means less oil is consumed, environment is happy, due to low demand, the oil prices should be low as well and we'll have a few more hundred years to enjoy petrol before it runs out!!


  • #165
    Gestapo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭Gestapo


    kleefarr wrote: »
    I'm hearing reports on the radio this morning, that Ireland are possibly thinking about going down the electric car route in a big way and becoming the leading country in this field.

    Personally I don't think we're ready. Where will this electricity come from? I doubt it will be from renewable sources. So the switch to electric cars won't help the environment much, as the pollution produced will be coming from the plants that provide the electricity for the cars in my opinion.

    Would you vote for all electric cars in Ireland?

    I wouldn't. Not yet anyway. Would it be better to go the way of Honda and hydrogen?

    Great idea.
    All you have to do is "pull the plug" on all the idiots driving on the roads out there!!!


  • #166
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    This way a lot of roads will be freed of motorists and the roads will be only for people who decide to pay more for the luxury of owning a normal car and going for long drives. So driving once again will become something of a recreational activity rather than a daily chore.

    I disagree with you.

    People will still need to get where they are going.

    research needs to be done on making electric cars go further for long and charge quicker. That's the long and the short of it.

    we have seen this government before remove services perks/hike up the price of owning something that you need without offering any alternative.

    And it has been a Disaster. And I'm not just talking about cars and transport. its everything!

    back to my first point.

    It is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL we develop and build this new generation of vehicle. we are one of the few countries in the world that have dumped massive amounts of money into scientific research and your 3rd level education. In my eyes it's now time to see a return on that investment.

    And Building these vehicles is one way of getting.


  • #167
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    grahambo wrote: »
    research needs to be done on making electric cars go further for long and charge quicker. That's the long and the short of it.
    Storage capacity and battery life are pretty much the two major hurdles. When we have a battery (it's a matter of time) that can hold 600km of charge with replacement cycles of about 8 years, then that's the last major hurdle over. In reality petrol engines will have little benefit over electric ones for the end-consumer.

    Even the quick-charge may not be as necessary as we think.

    The problem is that we're used to using most of our tank, pulling into a petrol station, filling up in 3-5 minutes and then heading off again for another 600km before repeating the cycle.

    Instead, if we get ourselves used to plugging in the vehicle every evening when we get home (or developing induction-charge technology which doesn't even require a plug), then it will be very, very rare that we ever use up our vehicle's entire charge in a single day. I've certainly never used a fuel tank of petrol in a day, though I expect that salesmen and taxi drivers often come close.

    Of course this will still be an issue in the States and other large landmasses where people may routinely do 10 or 15 hours hours a day @ 100km/h, so unless charging stations can replenish 90% of battery power in 10 minutes or less, gasoline will still win out in those markets.


  • #168
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    grahambo wrote: »
    I disagree with you.

    People will still need to get where they are going.

    research needs to be done on making electric cars go further for long and charge quicker. That's the long and the short of it.

    we have seen this government before remove services perks/hike up the price of owning something that you need without offering any alternative.

    And it has been a Disaster. And I'm not just talking about cars and transport. its everything!

    back to my first point.

    It is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL we develop and build this new generation of vehicle. we are one of the few countries in the world that have dumped massive amounts of money into scientific research and your 3rd level education. In my eyes it's now time to see a return on that investment.

    And Building these vehicles is one way of getting.

    An electric car can never beat a petrol car in terms of range and performance. Yes the electric motor gives you maximum torque from 0rpm as they say it but the biggest problem with them performance wise is that the battery pack makes the car too heavy. And then there's the whole lack of excitement and drama you get from a normal petrol car. Which is why I say the electric car can never replace the petrol car.

    The whole point of the petrol car is that you can drive on for miles and when you're low on fuel, you simply pull into a petrol station, fill it up and drive off again. In a car where you've got to rent out a BnB before you can set out to drive again will never work. And how much expensive would those "high-performance" batteries be which can recharge in a few minutes. Factor in the costs of the years of RnD which will go into developing such batteries. No reason electric cars are so expensive.

    If Ireland is going to go electric, then the government needs to put down some serious strong incentives for people to buy electric. No motor tax, free recharge stations, free parking, stuff that like. Or else people will continue to buy mass produced micras and polos which can do upto 70mpg and you pay 100eur motor tax for. Why would you pay €35k for a Nissan Leaf when you can get a micra for less than half the price.


    I'm not against the electric car. Infact I quite like the idea of charging it overnight and going to work in it. It'll work perfectly for the 90% of people who have no interest in driving and only do so because they have to.

    And so I say car manufactures should start focusing on producing mass produced cheap electric cars. No need to focus on fancy new technology. The existing technology will do fine. 100mile range, 6hr recharge time, Li-ion battery pack powering a simple electric motor is all they need. Its not very expensive to build an electric car. They're much simpler than petrol cars. What's expensive is the research that goes into building a replacement for the petrol car. Which is what I think the car manufacturers need to stop doing. Just accept it that the electric car will never be able to replace the petrol car (cuz if it could, it would have had 100years ago) and stop spending millions trying to develop new more efficient battery packs and electric motors.

    So when car manufacturers start making cheap electric cars, couple that with government incentive and everyone will quickly make the switch. People who are not interested in driving will get the electric cars for their commute.
    People who are interested in driving will get to keep their petrol car as a 2nd car for recreational and long distance use. Problem solved!


  • #169
    langdang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,857 ✭✭✭langdang


    I agree with af, dirt cheap purpose specific electric cars are whats needed - who really wants to spend money on one? A radio and a heater. Low tax and insurance, half rate parking. If only for use in a 50kph zone then reduced impact protection etc for lower weight - the onus would have to be on ICE engined vehicles to be extra careful in 50kph zones.


  • #170
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    langdang wrote: »
    I agree with af, dirt cheap purpose specific electric cars are whats needed - who really wants to spend money on one? A radio and a heater. Low tax and insurance, half rate parking. If only for use in a 50kph zone then reduced impact protection etc for lower weight - the onus would have to be on ICE engined vehicles to be extra careful in 50kph zones.

    Exactly. A G-wiz costs something like €10k. It shouldn't be very hard to build something more decent the size of a Micra for €15-20k. Add €2-3k government grant + incentives and you have an affordable replacement for the Micra.
    For most people the daily commute is no more than 30-40miles. Free charging at workplace + charging overnight at home should make a leccy car with even a 60-80miles range perfect for the daily commuter.

    No point spending millions trying to build powerful battery packs which can last for 200miles and electric motors which can do over 120mph. We already have petrol cars which can do that easily. We don't need high performance electric cars. What we need are replacements for the micras and polos and yaris and all those dreary hatchbacks people use to get from home to work and back.


  • #171
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    8K for a G-wiz is a shocking price, even at half that its far too much. Considering what a nice car you can get for 8k you arent going to convince the general public with the likes of the G-wiz.

    Its actually £8k, which is even more.
    But yeah thats electric cars are expensive even when they're something as simple and basic as the G-Wiz. Probably cause they aren't mass produced. Once a big company like VW or Nissan starts mass producing electric cars instead of the polos and micras, then the prices should come down. Still the government needs to intervene to make them more favorable than buying a cheap hatchback.

    Though before that the Li-ion battery infrastructure needs to get bigger as well as there will be a sharp raise in Lithium demand (Good news for Chile and Bolivia!). Just the battery manufacturers need to start working with what they already have (the not very longlasting but widely used Li-ion batteries) and stop wasting their time and money trying to develop a replacement for Petrol.


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  • #172
    unknownlegend
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 375 ✭✭unknownlegend


    seamus wrote: »
    Storage capacity and battery life are pretty much the two major hurdles. When we have a battery (it's a matter of time) that can hold 600km of charge with replacement cycles of about 8 years, then that's the last major hurdle over. In reality petrol engines will have little benefit over electric ones for the end-consumer.

    Even the quick-charge may not be as necessary as we think.

    The problem is that we're used to using most of our tank, pulling into a petrol station, filling up in 3-5 minutes and then heading off again for another 600km before repeating the cycle.

    Instead, if we get ourselves used to plugging in the vehicle every evening when we get home (or developing induction-charge technology which doesn't even require a plug), then it will be very, very rare that we ever use up our vehicle's entire charge in a single day. I've certainly never used a fuel tank of petrol in a day, though I expect that salesmen and taxi drivers often come close.

    Of course this will still be an issue in the States and other large landmasses where people may routinely do 10 or 15 hours hours a day @ 100km/h, so unless charging stations can replenish 90% of battery power in 10 minutes or less, gasoline will still win out in those markets.

    Interesting what you say about pulling into the station and filling up with petrol in a few minutes. I think it could be the case that you pull into a station and "change" battery packs. E.g. drive over some sort of docking bay that your old battery sinks into and a new fully charged one replaces it. Sounds a bit far fetched perhaps but the technology will get there someday.


  • #173
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    i dont mind if they bring in electric cars, if they make the drivers of them pay road tax for the infrastructure and not a single penny more is taken off us in the vroom vroom power camp .

    personally unless somebody can buuld me something the likes of a range rover or a toyota hilux that can match both the performance and range of their diesel cousins and recharge in less than an hour and not look like a fúcking faglord curved bell end prius type thing , I WILL NEVER BUY AN ELECTRIC CAR


  • #174
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    An electric car can never beat a petrol car in terms of range and performance. Yes the electric motor gives you maximum torque from 0rpm as they say it but the biggest problem with them performance wise is that the battery pack makes the car too heavy. And then there's the whole lack of excitement and drama you get from a normal petrol car. Which is why I say the electric car can never replace the petrol car.

    The whole point of the petrol car is that you can drive on for miles and when you're low on fuel, you simply pull into a petrol station, fill it up and drive off again. In a car where you've got to rent out a BnB before you can set out to drive again will never work. And how much expensive would those "high-performance" batteries be which can recharge in a few minutes. Factor in the costs of the years of RnD which will go into developing such batteries. No reason electric cars are so expensive.

    If Ireland is going to go electric, then the government needs to put down some serious strong incentives for people to buy electric. No motor tax, free recharge stations, free parking, stuff that like. Or else people will continue to buy mass produced micras and polos which can do upto 70mpg and you pay 100eur motor tax for. Why would you pay €35k for a Nissan Leaf when you can get a micra for less than half the price.


    I'm not against the electric car. Infact I quite like the idea of charging it overnight and going to work in it. It'll work perfectly for the 90% of people who have no interest in driving and only do so because they have to.

    And so I say car manufactures should start focusing on producing mass produced cheap electric cars. No need to focus on fancy new technology. The existing technology will do fine. 100mile range, 6hr recharge time, Li-ion battery pack powering a simple electric motor is all they need. Its not very expensive to build an electric car. They're much simpler than petrol cars. What's expensive is the research that goes into building a replacement for the petrol car. Which is what I think the car manufacturers need to stop doing. Just accept it that the electric car will never be able to replace the petrol car (cuz if it could, it would have had 100years ago) and stop spending millions trying to develop new more efficient battery packs and electric motors.

    So when car manufacturers start making cheap electric cars, couple that with government incentive and everyone will quickly make the switch. People who are not interested in driving will get the electric cars for their commute.
    People who are interested in driving will get to keep their petrol car as a 2nd car for recreational and long distance use. Problem solved!

    We're running out of oil. We don't just use oil for petrol and diesel either. It would be nice to have some oil left over for producing laptops, iphones, tyres and just generally anything we use plastic for.... which is a lot of things!

    ICE vehicles will still have niche roles and will also be used more for recreational purposes, just as horses are now used primarily for recreational purposes. Also most likely at some point in the future we'll probably be able to produce hydrogen cheaply enough which can be used in petrol cars.

    Research into battery technology will continue regardless, as my laptop or phone doesn't run on petrol or hydrogen. A hydrogen fuel cell would be nice, but those would be used with electric vehicles.

    From a social aspect it would be nice to stroll down O'Connell street in Dublin and not have to listen to noisy vehicles. Everyone is used to all the noise, but I think most people would enjoy the silence electric vehicles bring. I say that as someone who considers themselves a petrol-head, I have a nice A6 Avant Quattro Sport and I own quite a loud Ducati motorcycle. But a quiet city would be very nice and I don't see how ICE vehicles could ever accomplish that.

    I took my first test drive in an electric car the other day, the Nissan Leaf. I can't disagree more with your point about cheap crap cars like the G Wiz. People don't want to make difficult lifestyle changes, most people still want a nice car. A car that is similar in size and build quality to current cars, only it is quieter and much more friendly to the planet. As someone who enjoys fast cars and motorcycles, I can tell you the Leaf for a mid sized family hatchback is fast enough and plenty of fun to drive. I wouldn't be so critical of electric cars until you've tried one like the Leaf.


  • #175
    Elessar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,256 ✭✭✭Elessar


    As someone already mentioned, the biggest hurdles to electric vehicles really becoming mainstream are battery capacity (i.e. range) and charge times. I have absolutely no doubt that eventually we will have batteries that will charge in minutes flat and last as long as a current diesel tank (new generation capacitor batteries for example). It's only a matter of time.

    For the moment, the best middleground IMO will be cars like the upcoming Opel Omega. An entirely electric vehicle but with a 1.4L petrol engine which is only used to charge the batteries when they get low (i.e. doesn't drive the wheels at all). They claim 175MPG. It's not perfect, but it solves the problem of having to wait hours to recharge your vehicle.

    If I was a family man, that would be the next car on my list. I can see it really taking off. A good middleground no doubt?


  • #176
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    Elessar wrote: »
    As someone already mentioned, the biggest hurdles to electric vehicles really becoming mainstream are battery capacity (i.e. range) and charge times. I have absolutely no doubt that eventually we will have batteries that will charge in minutes flat and last as long as a current diesel tank (new generation capacitor batteries for example). It's only a matter of time.

    For the moment, the best middleground IMO will be cars like the upcoming Opel Omega. An entirely electric vehicle but with a 1.4L petrol engine which is only used to charge the batteries when they get low (i.e. doesn't drive the wheels at all). They claim 175MPG. It's not perfect, but it solves the problem of having to wait hours to recharge your vehicle.

    If I was a family man, that would be the next car on my list. I can see it really taking off. A good middleground no doubt?

    If range is an issue, then yes I completely agree with you. I'd be interested in the Opel as well. However there is a trade off! One advantage of an electric car is that electric "engines" are very simple and need little maintenance. Coolant, oil, filters they all don't exist in an electric car. That sort of hybrid gains a range advantage but loses the simplicity advantage. A trade off I might be willing to make myself :)


  • #177
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,486 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    That sort of hybrid gains a range advantage but loses the simplicity advantage. A trade off I might be willing to make myself :)
    True, but the engine operates only as a way of powering a generator, and (presumably) runs at fixed (relatively low) rpm and constant load, so would suffer less stress and could be a lot simpler than a typical IC engine in a traditional car resulting in better reliability. Maybe :) I'd certainly be interested in one when it comes out too.


  • #178
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,790 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    ...... there will be a sharp raise in Lithium demand (Good news for Chile and Bolivia!).

    ....yeah, about that: if anyone thinks we're currently hostage to a dozen or so oil-producing countries, some of which have a semblance of stability, can you even contemplate being held to greater hostage, by two mad-as-hat's regime's like Chile and Bolivia ?

    It won't be batteries that'll make/break electric cars - it'll be politics.

    Aka, money.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #179
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    Alun wrote: »
    True, but the engine operates only as a way of powering a generator, and (presumably) runs at fixed (relatively low) rpm and constant load, so would suffer less stress and could be a lot simpler than a typical IC engine in a traditional car resulting in better reliability. Maybe :) I'd certainly be interested in one when it comes out too.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2010/0707/1224274174107.html

    A bit early to say for sure, but if it is the same price as the Leaf, I think Opel might be getting my money! 175mpg with the petrol engine generating power for the electric motor is very good fuel economy.


  • #180
    Sikie
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭Sikie


    We are green dreaming too early on this one the auto industry is only developing this technology even in ten year best projections would be 10% pure electric displacing IC engines of today or IC/Electric hybrids. Overpriced electicity and tax rebates subsiding a small miniority while we attempt totest technology for MNCs


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  • #181
    GhanGee
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭GhanGee


    so, how BIG a wind turbine would need to be to recharge an electrical car over night 8-) so there's something I could use Irish wind for. Hehe


  • #182
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    Blitzkrieger wrote: »
    You must be joking - what about the enviornmental impact of all those batteries?

    Hydrogen fuel cell ftw.....

    Fuel cells require precious metals to manufacture, though like batteries they can be recycled after use. However, current fuel cells are about 50% efficient at converting H2 to electricity compared with about 85-90% for Battery to electric motor.

    A quick comparison of the primary energy to wheel lufecycle..

    Hydrogen Car -

    Fuel --> Electricity --> H2 --> Storage --> Fuel Cell --> Electricity --> Motor --> Wheels

    Versus

    Electric Car -

    Fuel --> Electricity --> Battery --> Motor --> Wheels


    Guess which is more efficient.


  • #183
    akkadian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭akkadian


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    Fuel cells require precious metals to manufacture, though like batteries they can be recycled after use. However, current fuel cells are about 50% efficient at converting H2 to electricity compared with about 85-90% for Battery to electric motor.

    A quick comparison of the primary energy to wheel lufecycle..

    Hydrogen Car -

    Fuel --> Electricity --> H2 --> Storage --> Fuel Cell --> Electricity --> Motor --> Wheels

    Versus

    Electric Car -

    Fuel --> Electricity --> Battery --> Motor --> Wheels


    Guess which is more efficient.

    That's just efficiency in terms of number of steps. It's the bottom line in terms of energy and resource consumption that is the most important consideration IMO. Bicycles win!


  • #184
    stevenmu
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    So basically what we need is a hydrogen fuel-cell / battery hybrid?


  • #185
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    Guess which is more practical :)

    In the short to medium term (at least) I would say direct electric cars. Battery and other storage technologies are advancing faster than H2 storage and distribution technologies. Also H2 storage tech is very expensive due to the high pressures involved and risk of explosion.


  • #186
    alias no.9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,336 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    In the short to medium term (at least) I would say direct electric cars. Battery and other storage technologies are advancing faster than H2 storage and distribution technologies and cost a lot less.

    Park a battery powered car up for a week and come back, what percentage of the charge is left?


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  • #187
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    How so, drive your electric car to its maximum range and then what do you do? Wait 6hrs for it to recharge (if you have somewhere to plug it in) or in a H powered car pull up to a service station and refill.

    Currently, 80% recharge in 10 - 30 minutes depending on battery technology. This is improving fast.

    The ESB will have 1500 public charge points nationwide by the end of this year, how many filling stations will be selling H2? :)
    Battery tech is no overtaking H storage, we have been storing/transporting using H for over a century.

    This is like comparing the storage of H2O and H2! Liquid hydrocarbons like petrol and diesel are a lot easier and safer to transport store than hydrogen.
    In regard to the safety issues the high capacity batteries arent the safetest things in the world either, if they get penetrated the can cause an awful mess. Just check online for videos of people messing about with Lithium Polymer batteries.

    Check out Hindenburg and other H2 explosion videos. The Honda H2 car stores 400L of H2 under 380 atmospheres pressure - a very big bang if something goes wrong!


  • #188
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    alias no.9 wrote: »
    Park a battery powered car up for a week and come back, what percentage of the charge is left?

    Depends on the battery


  • #189
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    Current electric cars dont charge 80% in 10-30 minutes and that included the Volt\Ampera. I doubt that ESB will have that many charging point but I could be wrong. Batteries can explode in just as brilliant and fancy way btw, I cant open Youtube but there are plenty of videos of exploding. Remember all those notebooks that were recalled due to exploding batteries.

    Nissan Leaf battery charges to 80% in 30 minutes. Can't find links to the faster charge, think it might be Tesla but I'll check.

    Future prospect of a 10 second charge! http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/03/lithium-breakthrough-could-charge-batteries-in-10-seconds.ars


    ESB Map - http://www.esb.ie/main/ecars/e-charging/map-of-charge-points.jsp Now show me the H2 filling station map :)


  • #190
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    Also, don't forget that batteries are commodity items, while fuel cells are not - the amount of money being pumped into the development of batteries is several orders of magnitude greater than that of fuel cells.


  • #191
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    Current electric cars dont charge 80% in 10-30 minutes and that included the Volt\Ampera. I doubt that ESB will have that many charging point but I could be wrong. Batteries can explode in just as brilliant and fancy way btw, I cant open Youtube but there are plenty of videos of exploding. Remember all those notebooks that were recalled due to exploding batteries.

    Those would be vids of Lipo batteries, which are not used in e-cars.


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  • #192
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    No point linking articles from 2009, from that map I can only see a handful of actually installed points.

    I linked a 2009 article as that technology should be closer to production. Only a few public charge points now, but the ESB say on that page that there will be 1500 charge points at the end of this year - not that far away. There's another map on the Nissan website with private charge points owned by filling stations etc.
    I am not saying that we should switch to H powered cars over night but I think electric cars arent the way foward.

    Hydrogen fuel cell cars are electric but energy is stored in a gas tank rather than a battery. I think BMW make a H2 fuelled car with an engine which actually burns the hydrogen but I don't know much about that.

    Who knows what we'll be driving in 10 years time - I grew up expecting to have a flying car by 2011 :D


  • #193
    BULLER
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭BULLER


    Zube wrote: »
    Yes, that's as real as electric cars get: a €150,000 two seat sports car.

    Correct, thats as real as an electric sports car gets (until its mass produced).

    And for 0-60 in 3.7seconds its not bad!

    tesla-model-s.jpg

    Will go on sale for $50,000 next year.

    Saloon car that does 0-60 in 6secs,
    has a 450km range
    and has a high voltage charge time of 20 minutes.

    tesla-model-s-interior-screen.jpg

    One word: Slick!

    The perception that electric cars are **** boxes will go out the door when these cars come onto the market.


  • #194
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    alias no.9 wrote: »
    Tell me, where does the hydrogen come from?

    Hydrogen can be made by splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen.
    This can be achieved using solar energy and because hydrogen is storable energy, you can make hay while the sun shines, so, unlike electricity for the grid, demand and availability don't have to coincide.
    Hydrogen would have to be made in sunnier climes than this, of course.
    So you split up water using solar energy, run cars on it and these cars emit water.
    This is the way forward, how anyone can not see that is beyond me.
    To run a planet on water is the only way.
    And, some time into the future, nuclear fusion.
    This whole idea of electric cars being run of our turf and coal fired antique power stations is just more 19th century nonsense, the same as combustion engines.
    Battery powered noddy cars are already obsolete, nothing but a stop gap measure and I will be waiting for hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles before getting out of my diesel.


  • #195
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    gotta love that tesla model S.

    I voted an all electric future for cars in Ireland. It will take time but it will most likely happen.
    Then the enthusiasts can enjoy their V8's or whatever they like at the weekends! Thats a good thing right?:)
    If an all electric scenario doesn't happen, it will be some other technology like H2 etc. In the end, it will be an energy carrier of some sort.
    I don't know the figures re: emissions, cost etc in relation to battery power or H2 power so i can't say which is cleaner. I'd err on the side of H2 but it's a guess. Batteries use a lot of chemicals and metals and last a few years. Maybe get recycled at the end of life??? But there is a cost involved in that.
    An H2 fuel cell should last a lot longer so it is mostly down to the cost of H2 extraction and getting it to the end user.

    I found a table that breaks down the costs (in USD) of the different power sources:
    http://www.buchmann.ca/Article1-page1.asp


  • #196
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Hydrogen can be made by splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen.
    This can be achieved using solar energy...


    This is the way forward, how anyone can not see that is beyond me.
    To run a planet on water is the only way.

    The electrolysis process that you just described is only 50% efficient- that is why this is not the way forward.

    Using that same energy to charge a battery is much more efficient and makes much more sense.

    Also, don't forget that storing H in a tank is a nightmare.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agSUjWsffew


  • #197
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    shedweller wrote: »
    Batteries use a lot of chemicals and metals and last a few years.

    Don't forget that conventional batteries are used in everything and there is always a huge demand for lighter, higher capacity and faster charging batteries.

    This demand will drive improvements, while fuels cell tech stagnates.


  • #198
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    To run a planet on water is the only way.

    Fuel cells contain all sorts of rare earth elements an are v complicated.

    What is your obsession with water, btw?


  • #199
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Hydrogen can be made by splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen.
    This can be achieved using solar energy and because hydrogen is storable energy, you can make hay while the sun shines, so, unlike electricity for the grid, demand and availability don't have to coincide.
    Hydrogen would have to be made in sunnier climes than this, of course.
    So you split up water using solar energy, run cars on it and these cars emit water.
    This is the way forward, how anyone can not see that is beyond me.
    To run a planet on water is the only way.
    And, some time into the future, nuclear fusion.
    This whole idea of electric cars being run of our turf and coal fired antique power stations is just more 19th century nonsense, the same as combustion engines.
    Battery powered noddy cars are already obsolete, nothing but a stop gap measure and I will be waiting for hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles before getting out of my diesel.

    That doesn't really make sense.

    The purpose of the hydrogen powered fuel cell in these vehicles is to produce electricity to power an electric motor. In this regard they are the same as your "Battery powered noddy cars."

    Fuel cells do not produce more power than batteries and a battery usually acts as a buffer between the cell and the motor, in other words hydrogen vehicles are battery powered :eek:

    If solar energy can be used to produce H2 then it can be used (more efficiently) to charge batteries. Likewise if fossil fuels can be used to charge batteries then the same electricity can be used to release hydrogen from water.

    The real issues are of the cost and efficiencies of using electricity to produce H2 (50-70% efficient) so that it can be converted back to electricity in an expensive fuel cell (50% efficient). Why do this when you could use the same electricity to charge a battery (85% efficient)?


  • #200
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    ahem

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtGp8Sha_mA


  • #201
    MarkoC
    Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭MarkoC


    Its a nice fairy-tale but i cant see it will happen ...
    Would you buy an electrical car if theres nowhere to charge the batteries which will last only 1h ?
    Only "very green" peolple will go for that who will get free chargers and dont drive more than 50km a day :D
    I think its all about the votings again ... But all this doesnt make any sense .... yet

    The country is not able even to fix the roads and now they coming up with this wonderful idea ?

    Best joke ive read today :D


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