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Alternatives to Catholicism?

  • 18-02-2012 5:30pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭


    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?

    You believe in God and an afterlife but described yourself as an atheist!?

    Without going into the whole child abuse scandal, which has been discussed ad infinitum on the megathread dedicated to that purpose, Christianity is a religion, which is divided into various traditions and denominations. Catholicism is one part of the Christian faith - it isn't accurate to describe other churches as "other Christian religions". Anyway, you could choose to be Orthodox, Church of Ireland, Presbyerian, Methodist, Baptist, Quaker, Pentecostal, Non-denominational...and so on. I'd suggest you read the Bible, do some research, and go along to a service if you find one that might appeal to you. There are a lot of Catholics who are every bit as angry over the scandals in the church as you are, and a lot of decent people in the church, although I have my issues with some of it's teachings. You might want to tone down the rhetoric a notch.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Why did you answer 'Atheist' Stinicker if you believe in God in the census:confused:

    Anyway, sorry to see you having a hard time, lots of us Catholics are having a hard time - However, I will disagree with you that we as Catholics condone the rape of children, but I can see why the scandals can create an inner turmoil.

    - I guess the first thing is to find out what you actually do believe and why for yourself, especially as regards Christ being a 'Christian'. There are very many Christian denominations, and then there are non denominational Christians too. It depends I guess on where you see yourself in relation to your faith. Most mainstream groups are represented on this forum - sorry to see you go, but the very best of luck, I hope you find peace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭cristoir


    Try agnostic theism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    There are a lot of alternatives to Catholicism.

    A good book to get you started would be Awareness by Anthony De Mellow, he was a Jesuit but in his book Awareness he never preached about the Adversary or fire and brimstone Walking on water is good too.

    John Donoghue Anam Cara is easy on the conscious too .

    I read John Moriarty Books but its heavy going but his writing is outside the box but if you have the eyes to see into the box your in for some surprise.

    John Moriarty has a lecture online called "Prometheus and the Dolphin" Google it :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I would encourage you to read the Bible, determine what God has said to mankind.

    I would recommend that you start reading Mark's Gospel and ask yourself some questions:

    1) Who is Jesus?
    2) Why did He come?
    3) Why is this important for me to understand this?

    I'd also recommend that you give these audio talks about Christianity a listen and this 6 point explanation of the basics of the Gospel here.

    If you PM me, I'd be happy to recommend some churches in your local area, and I'd be happy to give you ideas about trying to find out more about Jesus in His word. If you get in touch with me also, I'd be happy to send you a Bible free of charge.

    If you want an introduction to Jesus, go straight to the Bible, and if you are going to go to church eventually, find a church that focuses on the Bible. IMO, it doesn't particularly matter what denomination you choose as long as you believe and trust in Jesus.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,204 ✭✭✭FoxT


    I, too, was raised a Catholic but at this stage I no longer regard myself as one. There used to be a way of 'signing out'of Catholicism, but I think that avenue no longer exists. If anybody has a link, let me know!

    I believe that all organised religions are fundamentally political in nature. The Catholic church is particularly sensitive politically, and as an organisation political issues are much higher on their priority list than spiritual issues. Jews, Muslims, protestants, are also driven politically, and while I haven't done the PhD thesis on this I do believe that at bottom the driving forces behind organised religion is political rather than spiritual.

    For example, the Catholic church is only now responding to child abuse issues for political reasons.

    So, to answer your question - there is NO religion that offers a true alternative - because all are political organisations.

    -FoxT


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,288 ✭✭✭✭gammygils


    Form your own religon! Call it what you like. You might even make a few quid if you do it right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    OP, you are basing your faith on sinners in the Church and not by what it teaches. Sure you'll find bad eggs everywhere, and in ALL religions. My faith is based on what the Church TEACHES and not by the wrongs some of the clergy did. Did Jesus pick out saints for his disciples, no he didn't, St. Augustine himself was a sinner who became saint!

    The CC TODAY is not the same as it was 40, 30, or even 10 years ago. Many of it's abusers have been defrocked and Bishops replaced, and new polices in place, yet the tares and the wheat must grow together until harvest time.

    Sure some will abandon the Church for whatever reasons, but Jesus said He never will. The Holy Spirit has guided her from crisis to crisis for 2000 years and she is still here and always will be.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Logically for the OP, he/she should compare and contrast the RC with alternatives. Taking a detached view, ask how the alternatives compare in the historical sense in regard people, doctrines spiritual life and societal impact.
    At the days end in light of the problems experienced in Ireland, the Church is composed of saints and sinners, with emphasis purely on the latter provides an imbalanced view.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?

    The first question to ask yourself is if you ever believed in the doctrines of the Catholic church. You say you were born and raised Catholic but that of course doesn't have anything to do with whether you actually believed. There are plenty of Catholic web sites that can give you summaries of the core beliefs of Catholicism. Or you could talk to a priest.

    If you did then the next question to ask is if the recent scandals are actually relevant to these beliefs. While I think all have been disgusted by the behavior of the Church hierarchy with relation to sexual abuse, you have to ask does this actually alter the core beliefs of the Church. Rejecting something you actually believe in just because others who claim to share that belief acted badly is a bit silly. I'm an atheist, the fact that Stalin was as well has no effect on my beliefs :) If the scandals have changed your beliefs with regard to the core beliefs of the Catholic church then obviously you are no longer a believing Catholic.

    If you didn't ever really believe in the Catholic church then you were never a Catholic to begin with. Either way the next question is if you were ever a Christian to being with? You should study the beliefs common to all Christian denominations and if match what you believe (it is a bit more than God exists and there is an afterlife) then the next step would be to study the differences and decide which is closest to your personal interpretation of the Bible.

    If you find nothing in Christianity that you believe, yet still believe in a god and an afterlife perhaps other religions would be worth exploring.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 66 ✭✭Adamas


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?

    Yours is a very common problem, for reasons that many will understand without having to go through the details, as you know them already.

    You might think of doing some research into the origins of what is today called Christianity, as there are now approx. 30,000 denominations of one sort or another, all varying in degree of what they think is real as regards Jesus and his life's work.
    After that, if it still doesn't make sense to you, maybe take a time out to not decide anything, and see where things lead you, as you might just find what you never expected.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Zombrex: Even if the OP wasn't a Christian to begin with, that doesn't mean that he mightn't be interested in finding out about it.

    FoxT: The OP seems to be about Christian alternatives to the RCC, I think we should try and help the OP in this rather than saying not to bother surely?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Christian Churches in Ireland.

    Baptist Church.
    Church of Ireland/
    Evangelical.
    Methodist.
    Plymouth Brethren.
    Presbyterian.
    Quaker/Friends.
    Roman Catholic.

    Obviously Roman Catholic being the dominant Church in the ROI, but seeing as you have disowned it I have crossed it out for you :))


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Christian Churches in Ireland.

    Baptist Church.
    Church of Ireland/
    Evangelical.
    Methodist.
    Plymouth Brethren.
    Presbyterian.
    Quaker/Friends.
    Roman Catholic.



    Obviously Roman Catholic being the dominant Church in the ROI, but seeing as you have disowned it I have crossed it out for you :))


    Lumping "Evangelical" into one grouping is a bit silly... There are a lot of different Evangelical denominations, the major (Pentecostal) ones being Assemblies of God, Church of God, Vineyard, Elim, Plumbline (not techincally a denomination), etc... And the the other non-pentecostal ones...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,882 ✭✭✭Doc Farrell


    Northclare wrote: »
    There are a lot of alternatives to Catholicism.

    A good book to get you started would be Awareness by Anthony De Mellow, he was a Jesuit but in his book Awareness he never preached about the Adversary or fire and brimstone Walking on water is good too.

    John Donoghue Anam Cara is easy on the conscious too .

    I read John Moriarty Books but its heavy going but his writing is outside the box but if you have the eyes to see into the box your in for some surprise.

    John Moriarty has a lecture online called "Prometheus and the Dolphin" Google it :)

    I like where you are going with these names, I even like that you renamed de Mello as De Mellow! A typing faux pas! :)

    De Mello was of course, as you say, a Jesuit and very much in demand as a Catholic retreat director. A wonderful human being. He got into a bit of hot water with more traditional Catholics, as the Franciscan Fr Richard Rohr might be considered doing...

    There is another Jesuit called Paul Coutinho who seems to be very much like de Mello, he's even part Indian. He will be giving a series of talks in Ireland on the subject of his new book 'How big is your God?' he will in the Jesuit church in Gardiner street on March 2nd at 7.30pm.
    Fr. Coutinho, as a professor in Georgetown must be considered a big gun in the Jesuits, if that image is not heretical! I'm guessing he would be happy to answer any theological question anyone here might have.

    Incidentally Fr. Gerard Manley Hopkins knew this church well, as a Jesuit, and his sense of God was certainly greater than mine or most people I know!

    The crimes and mistakes of some of the Catholic hierarchy have been extremely painful for ordinary Catholics but as Zombrex says these car crashes to our attention can be a good time to really investigate what God and Catholicism really mean.
    Whatever you decide to do, OP, just take your time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Christian Churches in Ireland.

    Baptist Church.
    Church of Ireland/
    Evangelical.
    Methodist.
    Plymouth Brethren.
    Presbyterian.
    Quaker/Friends.
    Roman Catholic.

    Obviously Roman Catholic being the dominant Church in the ROI, but seeing as you have disowned it I have crossed it out for you :))

    No mention of the Unitarians or the Lutherans either? For shame.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Christian Churches in Ireland.

    Baptist Church.
    Church of Ireland/
    Evangelical.
    Methodist.
    Plymouth Brethren.
    Presbyterian.
    Quaker/Friends.
    Roman Catholic.

    Obviously Roman Catholic being the dominant Church in the ROI, but seeing as you have disowned it I have crossed it out for you :))

    The Redeemed Christian Church of God (a Nigerian Church) is the third largest denomination in the Irish Republic. Not pale enough for that list? :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    philologos wrote: »
    Zombrex: Even if the OP wasn't a Christian to begin with, that doesn't mean that he mightn't be interested in finding out about it.

    I didn't say he wouldn't, in fact I suggested he find out about common Christian beliefs and see if he believes in any of them.

    Ultimately it comes down to what the OP believes, not what various Catholic priests did or didn't do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    No mention of the Unitarians or the Lutherans either? For shame.

    Easy on chaps, is was just a brief list off the top of my head.
    Seaneh wrote: »
    Lumping "Evangelical" into one grouping is a bit silly... There are a lot of different Evangelical denominations, the major (Pentecostal) ones being Assemblies of God, Church of God, Vineyard, Elim, Plumbline (not techincally a denomination), etc... And the the other non-pentecostal ones...

    Dear Lord you lot are picky, I just inserted Evangelical so that it was on the list (off the top of my head), to be honest there are sooo many variations of so many denominations that you cuold be here all day sifting them out, then some bright spark will point out that I left out the lesser know 'Assembly of unorthodox brethern of outer mongolia' or some such . . . If somebody wants to makle a comprehensive list of every single variation of every single denomination then be my guest, and make sure not to leave one out :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    PDN wrote: »
    The Redeemed Christian Church of God (a Nigerian Church) is the third largest denomination in the Irish Republic. Not pale enough for that list? :)

    Are you being serious?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Id recommend the Oriental Orthodox who are very traditional but without the fanaticism you can find in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy; but if you believe the sacraments are valid in the RCC why leave?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Are you being serious?

    About it being the third largest church in the State? Absolutely. They have well over 100 congregations & at least 20,000 members in Ireland, and have gathered 10,000 at one single meeting in Dublin. The same denomination, back in Nigeria, gather over 3.5 million each year for their annual Prayer Conference and have a building just outside Lagos that seats 1 million people (I've visited this and seen it with my own eyes).

    About them being too pale to be on Lord Sutch's list? No, that was a little joke about how ethnocentric we tend to be here so as to miss out on huge social phenomena occurring under our very noses.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Christian Churches in Ireland.

    Baptist Church.
    Church of Ireland/
    Evangelical.
    Methodist.
    Plymouth Brethren.
    Presbyterian.
    Quaker/Friends.
    Roman Catholic.

    Obviously Roman Catholic being the dominant Church in the ROI, but seeing as you have disowned it I have crossed it out for you :))

    Coptic Church? Various Greek/Russian/Syrian Orthodox Churches


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?
    Well, a great deal depends on what you intend by the word “true” there.

    In one sense, all the non-Catholic Christian churches are “true” alternatives to Catholicism; i.e. they are truly not Catholic, but something else. But you may intend a narrower sense, a church whose teachings are true as opposed to a church whose teachings are in error. And that of course raises the question of what you thinks is true.

    In your post you don’t say much about what you are looking for in a church, or indeed why you feel the need for church membership at all. (Though you obviously do feel that need, as otherwise you wouldn’t be asking.) You mainly talk about why you are disenchanted with the Catholic church, and that focuses on the failings of the insitution and its hierarchy.

    You don’t suggest that you have any great beef with the beliefs of the Catholic church - creation, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Resurrection, Salvation and so forth - or with its worship.

    Based on this, my suggestion would be that you should start your search with Christian traditions that are close to, but distinct from, Catholicism. The closest would be Orthodox Christianity and Anglicanism and, of those two, Anglicanism has by far the larger presence in Ireland, and is therefore more accessible (though of course this depends to some extent on where you live). In those churches you’ll find a form of Christian teaching and Christian living that will be not completely unfamiliar to you, and you’ll be able to prayerfully engage with and reflect on that without seeing it through the filter of your rage and disgust at the failings of the Catholic hierarchy. You may well decided to move on from that starting point and explore other Christian communities, but if you do it should be on the basis of positive ideas about what you are looking for, rather than negative ideas about what you are recoiling from.

    In the end, to participate happily in any Christian church, you’re going to need to find something stronger than “it’s not Catholic” as the basis of your commitment. And we can’t tell you what that should be; you have to work it out for yourself. Leaving the Catholic church may just be clearing the air, so to speak, so that you can tackle that issue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    Im still making my mind up about my spiritual beliefs but for me it all boils down to having peace of mind,helping other's being there for family and friends and not beating the ****e out myself in my head because things don't go my way.

    Atheists and God heads can both live that way one day at a time.

    It's a life time job :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 66 ✭✭Adamas


    Northclare wrote: »
    Im still making my mind up about my spiritual beliefs but for me it all boils down to having peace of mind,helping other's being there for family and friends and not beating the ****e out myself in my head because things don't go my way.

    Atheists and God heads can both live that way one day at a time.

    It's a life time job :)

    Well, at least you are clear about what you are looking for, as many people lurch from one faith to another to just find that they are different shades of the same thing.
    The only difference you will find between two individuals or groups, is attitude, so maybe look for something that you don't feel uncomfortable with and doesn't seek to shoehorn you into stuff that goes against your sense of reason and balance? You seem to want something 'practical', but I don't really know how you can reconcile that with belief systems, as they are very often based on acceptance without question, elaboration and ritual.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    PDN wrote: »
    Are you being serious?

    About it being the third largest church in the State? Absolutely. They have well over 100 congregations & at least 20,000 members in Ireland, and have gathered 10,000 at one single meeting in Dublin. The same denomination, back in Nigeria, gather over 3.5 million each year for their annual Prayer Conference and have a building just outside Lagos that seats 1 million people (I've visited this and seen it with my own eyes).

    About them being too pale to be on Lord Sutch's list? No, that was a little joke about how ethnocentric we tend to be here so as to miss out on huge social phenomena occurring under our very noses.
    Just don't sit near the amplifiers or else bring some industrial ear plugs.
    Sat through 3 hours and was almost deaf going home. :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?

    1. There is only One christian religion. You may mean denomination?

    2. You are basing your position on a false premise since the Roman church never condoned or cover up pedophilia. Over the last century out of maybe a hundred thousand maybe ten or twenty bishops (and I have only even seen evidence of of maybe five in spite of wall to wall accusations) actually "covered up" pedophile priests. Even in those cases they did react to it even if their actions were the wrong thing to do. I am not aware of any Vatican involvement in any "cover up" nor has any been shown. the church has always opposed the rape of children and never condoned it to my knowledge

    3. Other christian denomination have non celibacy. some even have celibate monks and and married priests e.g. Orthodox christians. Buddhist monks are also celibate. Have you no time for their monks also? do you believe the Deli Lama is evil?

    4. It is interesting to note you still believe in God or Christ but put "atheist" down in the census. This actually thwarts the atheists here who claim their statistics are on the rise. It may be disinterested non atheists are declaring atheist.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?

    To be a Christian you have to be able to love and forgive. Like it or not that means loving Catholics, paedophiles, and Catholic paedophiles, amongst others - the anti-semites, murderers, abortionists, rapists, pornographers, drug dealers, politicians, atheists, adulterers, thieves, robbers, muggers, parking attendents, tax collectors, clampers, flamers... the list is virtually endless as it encompasses every human who ever lived.

    Now, you don't have to like them, and you don't have to hang out with them, though if you feel like visiting those in prison you're more than welcome, but you do have to be able to forgive them.

    Can you do that?

    No need to elaborate, yes or no will do, and we can take it from there.

    + Domino optimo maximo


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    Someone once told me, you could always pray for the Oops! I used a word that is contrary to the Charter

    And thank God your not like all those sick Oops! I did it again!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭homer911


    Just don't sit near the amplifiers or else bring some industrial ear plugs.
    Sat through 3 hours and was almost deaf going home. :)

    It's not the amplifiers I'd be worried about, its the speakers (pun intended) :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Festus: What's so wrong with the OP desiring to think about other Christian churches? I take it you're going to interpret anyone who decides to go to a non-RCC church as being unable to forgive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭noah45


    I am a non denominational christian and belong to the plumbline ministry. Basically we believe in living according to the bible.

    I wrote a letter to the administrator of the catholic parish in which I received baptism, first holy communion, confirmation and marriage explaining that I did not wish to be considered a roman catholic and they wrote back confirming this.

    I enjoy being a christian every day.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    noah45 wrote: »
    I am a non denominational christian and belong to the plumbline ministry. Basically we believe in living according to the bible.

    I wrote a letter to the administrator of the catholic parish in which I received baptism, first holy communion, confirmation and marriage explaining that I did not wish to be considered a roman catholic and they wrote back confirming this.

    I enjoy being a christian every day.

    That's good, just to make the point that Catholicism and Christianity aren't mutually exclusive - I'm sure you didn't mean it that way!

    Personally I think the right church for a person is one where they can grow in love, deepen in faith, and learn. That probably isn't going to be the same for everyone - I know I haven't found the place I fit in yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    OP, you are basing your faith on sinners in the Church and not by what it teaches. Sure you'll find bad eggs everywhere, and in ALL religions. My faith is based on what the Church TEACHES and not by the wrongs some of the clergy did. Did Jesus pick out saints for his disciples, no he didn't, St. Augustine himself was a sinner who became saint!

    .

    'Some' of the clergy. :confused:

    The current Pope has popped up in the news over allegations he oversaw the transfer of a dirty, sick, twisted, paedo priest, from one parish to another, in Germany. Fresh children to work on. Who cares? Certainly not these 'holier than thou' clergymen.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hullermann

    German Catholic Priest Admits to 280 Counts of Sexual Abuse
    http://news.yahoo.com/german-catholic-priest-admits-280-counts-sexual-abuse-224600657.html

    Admits to 280! How many more were there?

    A list of 'some' of the allegations, listed by country.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10407559

    My point is, the rot in the church goes right to the top. These guys in their robes and gold bling are in it for the money. Anyone who can't see that, good luck to you.

    Some people like being told how to live. I don't. I'm not a child and I'm not interested in a paedo telling me I've sinned.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,882 ✭✭✭Doc Farrell


    Please consider that there are more than a few men and women in the catholic church who have dedicated their lives to helping others. When one meets them they shine of decency and kindness.
    I'm not sure if you meant to tarnish everyone with your comment or whether you did but I personally know many Catholic priests, nuns and laypersons who are the most extraordinary people I've ever met.
    Perhaps if you wish to discuss this you can post your particular point of view in one of he main threads and pm me and I'll be happy to chat.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    That's good, just to make the point that Catholicism and Christianity aren't mutually exclusive - I'm sure you didn't mean it that way!

    Personally I think the right church for a person is one where they can grow in love, deepen in faith, and learn. That probably isn't going to be the same for everyone - I know I haven't found the place I fit in yet.

    Any consideration for Truth?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    philologos wrote: »
    Festus: What's so wrong with the OP desiring to think about other Christian churches?

    Did I say it was wrong?
    philologos wrote: »
    I take it you're going to interpret anyone who decides to go to a non-RCC church as being unable to forgive.

    Take it what ever way you want to, if that is your wont, but you would be wrong.

    Anyway you appear to have difficulty in understanding what I wrote so in a nutshell the OP has asserted that he has no respect for the Catholic Church and believes it to be criminal. Having no respect of someone or something frequently leads to the object of this lack of respect being treated eventually with contempt. Love and Respect tend to go together and when something is not respected it usually is not loved either. The language is negative and not desirous within a Christian so in seeking the true feelings of the OP, and I suppose others of a similar mindset, I selected the atomicity of Christianity. Love and Forgiveness.

    Without forgiveness one cannot love and without love one cannot forgive. Without either being a Christian is difficult.

    If the OP truely wants to be a Christian he has to be able to Love the Catholic Church and forgive the Catholic Church.

    By the way, the same goes for you and any other Christian here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Festus wrote: »
    Any consideration for Truth?

    Jesus is the Truth. If someone feels that they can't in good conscience remain part of the Catholic Church I would hope that they would continue to have a relationship with Him.


  • Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭noah45


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    That's good, just to make the point that Catholicism and Christianity aren't mutually exclusive - I'm sure you didn't mean it that way!

    I know that roman catholicism is christian,so not mutually exclusive, I was explaining in reply to FoxT how I informed the roman catholic church.:)
    " There used to be a way of 'signing out'of Catholicism, but I think that avenue no longer exists. If anybody has a link, let me know!"


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    I know that roman catholicism is christian,so not mutually exclusive, I was explaining in reply to FoxT how I informed the roman catholic church.:)
    " There used to be a way of 'signing out'of Catholicism, but I think that avenue no longer exists. If anybody has a link, let me know!"

    Yeah, there was a website called Count Me Out. It was fairly symbolic really, as obviously baptism can't be undone, and as far as I know for statistical purposes the Catholic Church relies on the census!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    There is no right or wrong church.

    At the end of the day its a personal choice ill never listen to anyone who tells me which is the right or wrong church for me.

    The catholic church has a lot to answer for.

    There is good and bad everywhere but if its true that Mr Infallible sent a known sick bstrd from parish to parish well that says enough.

    And stop making excuses for the catholic church as the hole is only getting bigger and bigger.

    Infallible (yeah right)

    The church of Ireland sounds more appealing :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Northclare wrote: »
    There is no right or wrong church.

    At the end of the day its a personal choice ill never listen to anyone who tells me which is the right or wrong church for me.

    The catholic church has a lot to answer for.

    There is good and bad everywhere but if its true that Mr Infallible sent a known sick bstrd from parish to parish well that says enough.

    And stop making excuses for the catholic church as the hole is only getting bigger and bigger.

    Infallible (yeah right)



    The church of Ireland sounds more appealing :)

    I too would rather see somebody at the expense of my particular 'Catholic' faith; commit to a Christian one, any Christian one, because they are most certainly my brothers and sisters, and a persons faith is worth more in their lifetime and being real to it, to them than understanding - but my Catholic faith, is imo the ultimate expression of Scripture and what it's all about - being united is the perfect expression, and there is only imo one expression of faith that calls for it - Christs Church.

    In saying that, I think you misrepresent me and Catholics in general, and the idea of 'Church' or 'infallible' - the 'hole' is not filled in particularly by those who claim Christ and every other deity or let themselves be wrote on by same, you either belong to Christ or you don't, but fill it in with any kind of Spirituality that happens to suit, and is, absolutely, a very long mile from Christianity.

    Christianity doesn't mean perfect people always - perhaps you need to look at this and understand exactly what following Christ as a Catholic means, and not jump the gun with some kind of spiritual understanding you have aquired outside the Gospels. It's not easy, it's not meant to be - but we don't dress it up with some kind of false newage spirituality either. Christ is Christ, Scripture is scripture, his Church is his Church no new age ingredients necessary to add or subtract or clarify his word.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    There is a big difference between walking over the Kedron with Jesus and reading the bible literally.

    Christianity is more symbolic than what the Catholic church preaches.

    I don't represent you or any other Catholics.

    I represent myself.

    Christianity was new age over 2000 years ago.

    I would much prefer to follow a humble guy who wore sandals and got around on a donkey to following a guy who claims to be infallible and lives in the lap of luxury.

    I won't even go into the Crusades, but Sufism is great too .


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Northclare wrote: »
    There is a big difference between walking over the Kedron with Jesus and reading the bible literally.

    Christianity is more symbolic than what the Catholic church preaches.

    I don't represent you or any other Catholics.

    I represent myself.

    Christianity was new age over 2000 years ago.

    I would much prefer to follow a humble guy who wore sandals and got around on a donkey to following a guy who claims to be infallible and lives in the lap of luxury.

    I won't even go into the Crusades, but Sufism is great too .

    I'm glad you say you represent yourself! So too does every new age spiritualist who regards Christ as a 'good' teacher. Christians were burned thrashed and mauled for hundreds of years in the name of Christ and for his name, his truth, his church.

    Christ is not 'symbolic' - Christianity is grounded most very firmly in Christ, the very real God who became human, singularly alone as the only way. The ultimate, the beginning and end.

    You can recommend him as a humble guy with sandals, and spit hellfire on his Church, but you cannot undo his word or indeed replace it with some kind of newage symbolism.

    If you like sufism, that's up to you, your choice...there is always something to be learned, but Christ is not some kind of on the surface spirituality that's all about wearing sandals, and being kind to eachother etc. the Gospels are far more than that -

    Christ has walked with us since the resurrection - and his people are not relative to anything, or out to prove anything, other than their faith in soley him. The Catholic Church are not Bible only Christians - Scripture is sacr.ed, so too is the Church, maybe look a little deeper into what it means to be a Catholic - we're not all perfect, obviously - never claimed to be, we love and welcome sinners - the Church is for them, just as Jesus sat with them too.

    It's not about infallibility as misunderstood as you would have it and most especially not about psuedo scientific religions such as that of the new age movement that are content to blur Hinduism, naturalism, any kind of spirituality with Christianity, when they will never meet!

    Christianity stands alone - always will. There is no room or tolerance for any other deity within Christianity other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit -otherwise it's not Christianity - just posing as or borrowing from same, with a few nice words here or there but no substance, will never be a substitute for Christ. Sorry but no, your Sprirituality is yours, my Christianity is different - totally.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    I don't see catholic priests walking the streets of our villages towns and cities helping the poor and leading the morally deaf and blind to salvation.

    I never spat on any church that's something that was created in your head.

    Have you ever read any of Bishop Berkleys work.

    Christian mystics are not mentioned in the church too often.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Northclare wrote: »
    I don't see catholic priests walking the streets of our villages towns and cities helping the poor and leading the morally deaf and blind to salvation.

    I never spat on any church that's something that was created in your head.

    Have you ever read any of Bishop Berkleys work.

    Christian mystics are not mentioned in the church too often.

    Oh, no, you don't see Catholics because you don't want to - we're there in every home that accepts the SVDP - every home that a priest phones in order to bring the Eucharist to old age folk who can't get out to mass - you would have to be there I guess - every home that every single Catholic goes to in order to express their faith in all it's patience and love.

    Christian mystics are part and parcel of the Church, for heavens sake some of them are declared 'saints' - and not because of their 'mystic', but because they lived very Holy lives and brought people home to Christ.

    In other words it's not mysticism that matters so much as the message of those saints who lived the Gospel. Mysticism or contemplation has it's place in Christianity, so long as it's guided and the contemplation is on Christ, but it can be dangerous if it's mixed with new age philosophy -

    For instance, the 'law of attraction' that the 'secret' bestselling books message ecompasses is that one is responsible soley for themselves, not for any body else - in fact, if somebody emits 'negative' vibes you should seperate yourself from them in order to receive good things from the 'universe' and not associate with negative 'vibes'..

    Heck, that's just mad imo, Jesus wants us to be responsible and actually questions us on how responsible we are to the underdog, the persecuted, the poor - he never asks us to step boldly over them in the name of the universe :confused: he wants us to be part of life, responsible for others, not contemplate ourselves beyond earth, meditate ourselves out of reality, but to be active, live life, love others, be part of life, and be couragous in our convictions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    Horses for courses.

    I sense anger in you, maybe a few weeks in Mount Melery would be a good start.

    They cater for people from all walks of life.

    Your vision of the catholic church isn't as good as I thought it was.

    People were filled with fear for centuries by priests telling them they will burn in hell for their sinful ways and hardly ever spoke about repentance or forgiveness.

    How can someone have faith in someone who promotes burning in hell and all those beatings that were given out, is that promoting the church ?

    And by the way I never spat on any church it might be a moral decision on your behalf to delete that vile comment :(

    Do you drink late at night ?

    Check out Mount Melery as I said their doors are open to everyone the prayer and meditation will do a person good :)

    God bless you :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Northclare wrote: »
    Horses for courses.

    I sense anger in you, maybe a few weeks in Mount Melery would be a good start.

    They cater for people from all walks of life.

    Your vision of the catholic church isn't as good as I thought it was.

    People were filled with fear for centuries by priests telling them they will burn in hell for their sinful ways and hardly ever spoke about repentance or forgiveness.

    How can someone have faith in someone who promotes burning in hell and all those beatings that were given out, is that promoting the church ?

    And by the way I never spat on any church it might be a moral decision on your behalf to delete that vile comment :(

    Do you drink late at night ?

    Check out Mount Melery as I said their doors are open to everyone the prayer and meditation will do a person good :)

    God bless you :)

    I'm not really sure what point you're making here - you appear to castigate the Catholic church for de-emphasising Christian mystics, which as lmaopml rightly points out simply isn't true (Hildegard of Bingen, St.Therese of Avila, Thomas Merton... and so on) but then praise Mount Mellary, which as far as I'm aware is a Trappist monastery (and Catholic).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    One of the many reasons why we have 'cafeteria catholics' and catholics who have little knowledge of the Catholic faith, is that there isn't enough pulpit-pounding. You will still be condemned to Hell for the same unrepentant sins today as you did centuries ago.

    Many priests are being too politically correct in case they will be accused of intolerance and/or bigotry! The Apostles weren't afraid to call a spade a spade, all of them laid down their lives for the spread of the Gospel - St John being the only Apostle to die a natural death.

    We need more brimstone and fire preaching, to awaken people from apathy! There should be fear, fear for the loss of your soul for all eternity.


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