Grassroots FF and the renewal of the party

Shea O'Meara · 10-05-2012 3:13pm

Look FFail claim to be cleaning house after every series of scandals and corruption. Anyone who buys into it is an idiot and deserves to live under another FFail government...until the next round of fraudulant behaviour comes to light, at which point they'll renew at a grassroots level :rolleyes:

All parties crave power and will, to varying degrees, throw their principles out the window and get in bed with anyone, using the excuse that they can only achieve at least some good by being in office. Which is short sighted, (*see Labour).
Sinn Fein have their flag so strongly tied to the mast, love or loathe them they would lose a lot of support if they got into bed with say, FFail.
Parties such as FG or LAB, being center right and center left can not 100% be relied upon to stick to their principles.
FFail, have no principles or morals that they wouldn't chuck out to get into government. They are not to be trusted, unless you personally know the local fellah, as regardless of what goes on in Dublin, he'll do you a few favours if your Da played Hurley with his Uncle. That's your FFail grassroots, that's why they've a hardcore support system and that's why they'll always be around and never anything be but a detriment to the welfare of our country and every man woman in it, unless they're FFail grassroot members.

Dr Galen · 10-05-2012 4:54pm

I'm going to suggest two things here:

Posters take a look over the charter, and post accordingly. Petty name calling, inferring people are idiots etc.. just isn't on.

@raymon

Its clear that you have a specific bee in your bonnet with regards to FF. That is fine, but it is also pretty clear that you aren't really interested in real discussion about the party. Its just one long stream of anti-FF rhetoric. That is not really good enough, and could be classed as soapboxing tbh, again something that is contrary to the spirit of the forum.

Cheers

DrG

goat2 · 10-05-2012 4:58pm

i do admire o cuive for standing up for what he beleive in,

thebman · 10-05-2012 5:20pm

goat2 wrote: »

i do admire o cuive for standing up for what he beleive in,

But he didn't. He picked his career and the safety of ff over his beliefs.

Pretty much what I expect a politician to do in Irish politics.

Shea O'Meara · 10-05-2012 5:54pm

O'Cuiv is simply laying the ground work for the next leadership race. Cleverly, if a little transparent, setting himself apart from the current guard so he can deflect some party blame down the road. Shyster like the granda.

Sierra Oscar · 10-05-2012 6:07pm

thebman wrote: »

But he didn't. He picked his career and the safety of ff over his beliefs.

Pretty much what I expect a politician to do in Irish politics.

Well to be fair to O'Cuiv he is continuing to put forward his beliefs within the party with the aim of altering policy. I do not see an issue with that.

He will have a bigger impact on FF policy by voicing his opinions on the inside rather than becoming a constituency orientated Independent.

raymon wrote: »

All three showed that the grassroots are not part of the renewal , regeneration, or whatever is supposed to be happening

Again, you make the mistake of believing that the entire grassroots is one assimilated borg. That is not the case - nor is it the case in any party. Individual views vary from member to member - that is a pretty basic characteristic of the entirety of humanity. It is only natural when you start nit-picking that you will find variances in opinions in the very specific things that you have been mentioning.

Don't worry raymon - the renewal is well underway, although I suspect that you will be disappointed to hear that. I actually took part in a canvass with the party this week, where I was out knocking on doors with the largest group of members that I have been with on a canvass over the last six years. It was actually my first proper community door knock canvass since the last General Election campaign and I am pleased to report that the hostility towards FF has subsided quite considerably - with people on the doors being quite open to discussing matters with FF reps and put forward their concerns that need addressing. Again, I am assuming that the fact that the electorate is willing to engage with FF once again is likely to greatly disappoint you.

Mr.Micro · 10-05-2012 7:38pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

.

Don't worry raymon - the renewal is well underway, although I suspect that you will be disappointed to hear that. I actually took part in a canvass with the party this week, where I was out knocking on doors with the largest group of members that I have been with on a canvass over the last six years. It was actually my first proper community door knock canvass since the last General Election campaign and I am pleased to report that the hostility towards FF has subsided quite considerably - with people on the doors being quite open to discussing matters with FF reps and put forward their concerns that need addressing. Again, I am assuming that the fact that the electorate is willing to engage with FF once again is likely to greatly disappoint you.

TBH SO I would take any love for FF with a pinch of salt, the public will gripe at the current Government and moan to who will listen. FF are offering what on the doorsteps? The current coalition are trying to fix the current inherited problems. It would be no harm for FF, or the country, for FF to be out of office for at least 2 terms IMO, so that a) it can come to terms with itself and set new standards and coherent policies and b) allow the country to be put on its feet again.

Sierra Oscar · 10-05-2012 7:45pm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

TBH SO I would take any love for FF with a pinch of salt, the public will gripe at the current Government and moan to who will listen. FF are offering what on the doorsteps? The current coalition are trying to fix the current inherited problems. It would be no harm for FF, or the country, for FF to be out of office for at least 2 terms IMO, so that a) it can come to terms with itself and set new standards and coherent policies and b) allow the country to be put on its feet again.

Oh I agree, I recognise well that the popularity of the party in terms of voting intentions is in the dumps.

However there has been a noticeable change on the ground, as I highlighted, in regards people actually willing to engage with FF reps. For example during GE11 people were simply not willing to engage with FF - which was perfectly understandable. Now however when someone asks which party you are with they no longer just say "no thanks" but instead are actually willing to engage. That improvement in willingness to engage is important, as it shows there is an avenue for the party to regain the trust of the people.

It will be a very long road to recovery and everyone within the party knows that.

Fenian Army · 10-05-2012 7:51pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Well to be fair to O'Cuiv he is continuing to put forward his beliefs within the party with the aim of altering policy. I do not see an issue with that.

He will have a bigger impact on FF policy by voicing his opinions on the inside rather than becoming a constituency orientated Independent.

Again, you make the mistake of believing that the entire grassroots is one assimilated borg. That is not the case - nor is it the case in any party. Individual views vary from member to member - that is a pretty basic characteristic of the entirety of humanity. It is only natural when you start nit-picking that you will find variances in opinions in the very specific things that you have been mentioning.

Don't worry raymon - the renewal is well underway, although I suspect that you will be disappointed to hear that. I actually took part in a canvass with the party this week, where I was out knocking on doors with the largest group of members that I have been with on a canvass over the last six years. It was actually my first proper community door knock canvass since the last General Election campaign and I am pleased to report that the hostility towards FF has subsided quite considerably - with people on the doors being quite open to discussing matters with FF reps and put forward their concerns that need addressing. Again, I am assuming that the fact that the electorate is willing to engage with FF once again is likely to greatly disappoint you.

I dont see an underlying agenda with FF other than to say whatever it takes to get into power for the sake of it...

You could say that SF are like that (I dont agree) but you'd have to admit that their underlying agenda is the republican one.

To be honest I don't really see the point of FF or how they offer an alternative to FG or even labour.

As a Sinn Féin activist my aim in being involved is to help further the republican agenda and to bring about a united Ireland with the commitments and promises in the proclamation and the democratic program as its foundations. Simply put, an Ireland of equals.

Sierra Oscar, why are you involved with fianna fáil?

irishdude11 · 10-05-2012 8:09pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Oh I agree, I recognise well that the popularity of the party in terms of voting intentions is in the dumps.

However there has been a noticeable change on the ground, as I highlighted, in regards people actually willing to engage with FF reps. For example during GE11 people were simply not willing to engage with FF - which was perfectly understandable. Now however when someone asks which party you are with they no longer just say "no thanks" but instead are actually willing to engage. That improvement in willingness to engage is important, as it shows there is an avenue for the party to regain the trust of the people.

It will be a very long road to recovery and everyone within the party knows that.

What exactly is the point of FF anymore? They had the run of the country for the 14 years and they ran it into the ground to the tune of tens of billion of euro. The leadership has been corrupt for decades. They stand for nothing apart from 'being in power'. They have absolutely nothing to offer, they've done enough damage over the last 30 years. And you can go even further back if you like...FF were in charge almost all the time that the Catholic Church was given free reign over the country, and look how that turned out.

If you have an interest in politics and would like to improve the state of the country why are you associating yourself with such a useless party which will forever, rightly, be associated with corruption and absolute incompetence. Seriously mate, why are you wasting your time with FF, if you are interested in politics do yourself a favour and don't associate yourself with utter failure.

'Long road to recovery'...recovery to what?

Sand · 10-05-2012 11:54pm

The problem I see for Fianna Fail (apart from being dead and not knowing it) is that rival parties and groups can engage with voters and explain what they would aspire to achieve in power. With Fianna Fail they face the challenge of attempting to explain what they would aspire to achieve whilst simultaneously having to explain why they didn't achieve it already in 14 years of unbroken political dominance and a once in a lifetime economic windfall. How much more opportunity does Fianna Fail need to implement their vision for the country?

When we consider what Fianna Fail aspire to, based on their actions in power as opposed to their claims, it appears to be a bit of social reactionary appeasement, diverting state funds to their voters, getting their friends appointed to state bodies, relentlessly driving down moral standards in public office and running a populist economic policy. This is what Fianna Fail has engaged in for at least 40 years and longer and continued to engage in throughout the boom. Its hard to see whats to be renewed.

If we look at "the renewal" its being carried out under the guidance of fresh faces like Micheal Martin and Willie O'Dea. If we check the "grassroots" Fianna Fail is going back to its the social reactionaries and the local organisations which operate candidates that don't rise beyond Jackie Healy Rae in terms of national vision. Basically, Fianna Fail is just packaging up more of the same and calling it renewal.

All of this is hypothetical however - Fianna Fail is dead. It is toxic. When people consider their lost jobs, they think of Fianna Fail. When they consider emigrated children, they think of Fianna Fail. When they consider the banks and NAMA, they think of Fianna Fail. When people consider their mortgages, they think of Fianna Fail. When people consider corruption in public office and golden parachutes for failure, they think of Fianna Fail.

Fianna Fail is never, ever, ever getting back up. Ever. Sinn Fein will move in and hoover up any votes Fianna Fail might hope their renewal will retrieve.

aoraki · 11-05-2012 1:03pm

Sand wrote: »

All of this is hypothetical however - Fianna Fail is dead. It is toxic. When people consider their lost jobs, they think of Fianna Fail. When they consider emigrated children, they think of Fianna Fail. When they consider the banks and NAMA, they think of Fianna Fail. When people consider their mortgages, they think of Fianna Fail. When people consider corruption in public office and golden parachutes for failure, they think of Fianna Fail.

Fianna Fail is never, ever, ever getting back up. Ever.

B I N G O - you cannot put it any more succinctly than this. Fianna Fail are ffcuked, and the vast majority of people in this country see that as a very, very good thing.

Shea O'Meara · 11-05-2012 5:55pm

They'll be back They've a core membership and network which doesn't disapate as politics and the good of the country has little or nothing to do with it. It's party first.
They just need wait a few years on enough floaters to get really browned off with the measures being brought in to, ironically, clean up after FFails last batch of moral and legal failings.
Can anyone on here, FFail or not, see no corruption or fraudulant selfish behaviour coming to light after we get through the next FFail wave of snake oil salesmen? It's a guarantee at this stage.
A straight FFail government would be an anomaly, that's a cold fact which cannot be denied by any FFail family member.

goat2 · 11-05-2012 7:02pm

are those of the fine gael party along with labour also without sin,
there is this new in fg who went around canvassing that he was taking half wage when he got in, there was a catch, he got his first cousin and wife grand cushy jobs within weeks and we have heard nothing else of him

irishdude11 · 11-05-2012 7:17pm

goat2 wrote: »

are those of the fine gael party along with labour also without sin,
there is this new in fg who went around canvassing that he was taking half wage when he got in, there was a catch, he got his first cousin and wife grand cushy jobs within weeks and we have heard nothing else of him

Come back to me when FG have destroyed the country's finances to the tune of 100 billion. As bad and all as FG/Lab are, they have a very very very long way to go before even get close to FF's incredible level of corruption and incompetence.

goat2 · 11-05-2012 7:32pm

irishdude11 wrote: »

Come back to me when FG have destroyed the country's finances to the tune of 100 billion. As bad and all as FG/Lab are, they have a very very very long way to go before even get close to FF's incredible level of corruption and incompetence.

we were all blaming mary harney for the trollies on corridors, fg had promised they would improve that, it is gone downhill and the new man at the helm has loads of advisors to boot,
look at all the people out of work, people in small business cannot get overdrafts from banks, having to let their good workers go.

Sand · 11-05-2012 8:57pm

goat2 wrote: »

are those of the fine gael party along with labour also without sin,
there is this new in fg who went around canvassing that he was taking half wage when he got in, there was a catch, he got his first cousin and wife grand cushy jobs within weeks and we have heard nothing else of him

Clearly the answer is to vote Fianna Fail back in to restore ethics in public office!

Nope, Fine Gael and Labour are also completely sinful - Labour are joined at the hip with various public sector unions and insiders, whilst Fine Gael are generally cut from the same social reactionary/state theft cloth as Fianna Fail. The only thing Fianna Fail and Fine Gael disagree on is who won the civil war. And thus, who the spoils should go to.

What the Irish public needs to learn to do is to relentlessly and ruthlessly punish incompetence and corruption in its representatives. Vote against your "new in fg" (wtf?) and when he comes round your way explain to him with diagrams and sock puppets exactly why you're doing so.

The problem is, that the Irish public are not allowed to vote on national politics or national government. They vote on local popularity contests - people divide their vision of the local rep ("Ah shure, he does great work in the locality...") versus their vision of the party ("Shower of bastards!"). The problem is whip system means the local rep is simply a shill for the national party. The electoral system is illegitimate in that it divides the people from an opinion on the national government - politicians are then unfairly (to some degree) blamed for not having a national perspective when their electoral survival is almost entirely dependent on winning a local popularity contest.

Fianna Fail has thrived by appealing to this lowest common denominator gombeen man mentality. Hardened Fianna Failers are so cynical and jaded that they view this cyncism as being the virtue of practicality or the common touch, keeping close to the ground. Churchill ( a man from whom no Fianna Failer would ever dream of learning a lesson from ) once noted that if the public ever caught a politician keeping close to the ground they would lose all respect for him.

The problem for Fianna Fail is that they've been caught, badly caught, daydreaming about the common everyday "breakfast roll man" issues when the public wanted a government. They'll never recover from the contempt they are held in.

Fenian Army · 23-05-2012 7:59pm

FROM a heartland of Fianna Fáil in deepest Mayo comes a sterling example of loyalty to a former local leader, Padraig Flynn, as members of the Castlebar cumann unanimously lauded the former minister and EU commissioner. Dismissing the severe finding of the Mahon Tribunal that Flynn had corruptly sought and received £50,000 from developer Tom Gilmartin, Councillor Blackie Gavin stated that this issue was a “private matter between himself and Tom Gilmartin”. That’s grand so.

Blackie also wanted it recorded that Flynn had left a record of achievement that would never be equalled in the county. The cumann unanimously passed a motion of thanks and appreciation to Pee Flynn for his work on behalf of Castlebar and Mayo during his long years of service.

Chairman Patrick McDonnell said that Pee had been responsible for Knock Airport, regional water and sewage schemes and lots of roads. Cumann members also expressed their regret at Pee’s post tribunal resignation from the party (before he could be expelled) in a show of solidarity that puts to shame the wishy-washy supporters of Bertie Ahern in Dublin Central. But what will Micheál Martin do about this act of defiance; expel them all?

From the Phoenix.

Some supporters go on and on about the "ordinary decent FF grassroots" and the need for FF to get back in touch with them and that the the rot was just a few bad eggs at the top. In my opinion the entire FF organisation is rotten from top to bottom and reports like this are doing nothing to help change my opinion.

Where exactly is this "decent" grassroots? I havent seen it, have you? Its a myth.

steelcityblues · 23-05-2012 8:17pm

There isn't such a thing.

They could have formed a breakaway party if they were so upset by the corruption of several of their senior figures, but I think with them blood is thicker than water.

Look at O'Cuiv who is supposedly unhappy with today's FF, yet hasn't the balls to go and leave.

nuac · 23-05-2012 8:20pm

Castlebar Fianna Fail has been a Flynn personal fiefdom since Flynn entered politics c1967.

the effussive remarks should be considered in that context

Fenian Army · 23-05-2012 8:45pm

Anyone fancy a laugh? Felt a bit bad laughing myself, these people are clearly delusional:

FF member magazine, Cuisle, "The voice of the members"

Edition One:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/76133961/Cuisle-Edition-01

The "What does Fianna Fáil mean to me?" Section is both amusing and depressing at the same time. Some excerpts:

"However, with many of these young people living lavish lifestyles, they do not give Fianna Fáil credit for bringing our nation to the previous dizzying heights of the Celtic Tiger, which allowed them and their families to live in such a way."

"Fianna Fáil, in my opinion, does not garner enough respect among young people as it should"

"As a child, I remember our neighbour, the chairman
of the local cumann, bringing our TD, to the door. Ours was one house wherein his vote was defnitely guaranteed. Fianna Fáil? It was the milk in our tea, the meat in our sandwich."

Then there is the "Forgotten achievements" section! All thats been destroyed by FF. It seems to me that the FF grassroots, like those in Castlebar, are proud of FFs role in destroying this state.

steelcityblues · 23-05-2012 9:15pm

I love how Martin's 'five to six steps of renewal' say a lot without saying much. Typical FF speak.

mikemac1 · 23-05-2012 9:28pm

Rural/urban divide maybe

I wonder if O'Cuiv would ever try to break away
Interesting times

johngalway · 23-05-2012 10:14pm

steelcityblues wrote: »

Look at O'Cuiv who is supposedly unhappy with today's FF, yet hasn't the balls to go and leave.

He won't leave because he's unimportant outside of FF and he knows it. Sure, there's lots of talk about how influential he is and his tour :rolleyes: of surrounding counties and how the grass roots like him.

It's all talk. If it were real he'd have gone and done it already.

Dirk Gently · 23-05-2012 10:29pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

Where exactly is this "decent" grassroots? I havent seen it, have you? Its a myth.

"Decent" is just a nice word for primitive ignorant tribalism, perhaps not corrupt as that requires a level of consciousness. Decent grassroots is used to describe those who don't know any better.

K-9 · 23-05-2012 10:32pm

Merged with existing thread on the topic.

RATM · 25-05-2012 5:59pm

The problem for the FF grassroots is that most people in Ireland now see them as a bunch of gombeens and back slappers who encouraged, supported and congratulated the corrupt politicans above them. The very people who are supposed to renew the party are now hated by the majority of people in this country. Anyone who still supports FF after all that has happened is seen as not being able to think for themselves (and rightly so in my opinion), they are nothing more than sheep at the end of the day, devoid of thought and convictions.

They have no ideals and no vision for Ireland, their rule was all about 'managing' catastrophies whilst enriching themselves. At no point in FF history did they ever embrace the concept of building strong institutions that would have strengthened the nation state, in fact nation building as a whole is alien to them. From Dev onwards it was corrupt as fcuk and the grassroots who are now left carrying the can know no other way- they're institutionalized to the corrupt nod and wink politics and are lost in the dark as they don't know any other way.

FF members might think they had a superb election victory in 2007 but in reality 59% of Irish people did not vote for them. Today that figure is closer to 85%, i.e there is no way back for them whatsoever. When the older generation die off that 85% will rise to 95% and eventually they will fizzle out and merge with some other party.

Sierra Oscar · 26-05-2012 3:01pm

RATM wrote: »

When the older generation die off that 85% will rise to 95% and eventually they will fizzle out and merge with some other party.

It is funny when people bring up this myth about FF party support and it all deriving from people who are seemingly in their 80's. The actual statistical figures show that FF party support is consistent throughout all age groups - for example in the Red C poll during March 29th FF support was the same between the age bracket of 18 - 34 then it was in the 55+ age bracket. Furthermore opinion polls are showing that the fastest growing segment of FF support is in the 18 - 34 bracket.

The figures are all easily accessible - I suggest you read up on them.

Mr.Micro · 26-05-2012 3:30pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

in the Red C poll during March 29th FF support was the same between the age bracket of 18 - 34. Furthermore opinion polls are showing that the fastest growing segment of FF support is in the 18 - 34 bracket.

SO, can you suggest why FF support is growing in this age bracket?

Sand · 26-05-2012 11:12pm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

SO, can you suggest why FF support is growing in this age bracket?

Id interject to guess that its declining much faster in all other age brackets - either by deaths or parents waving their children off at the airport...

Sierra Oscar · 26-05-2012 11:14pm

Sand wrote: »

Id interject to guess that its declining much faster in all other age brackets - either by deaths or parents waving their children off at the airport...

It is actually up slightly in all other age brackets.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

SO, can you suggest why FF support is growing in this age bracket?

Not sure really. Support is lowest in the 34 - 55 age bracket - perhaps it has something to do with that section of the population having suffered the most with the downturn, especially if they were property buyers and the likes?

raymon · 27-05-2012 11:16pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It is actually up slightly in all other age brackets.

Another terrible result for FF today 17%!!!!! This is the grassroots.

To read the articles in the FF weekly Newsletter ( Sunday Independent) , you would think that FF are turning a corner and that the government is near collapse.
Anne Harris' article was a piece of comedy about what a great leader Michael Martin is .

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anne-harris-ff-embarks-on-comeback-trail-3119617.html

conor.hogan.2 · 27-05-2012 11:18pm

I will not support any TD if they are a member of FF. It says too much about their character if that is the party they align themselves with.

Sierra Oscar · 27-05-2012 11:24pm

raymon wrote: »

Another terrible result for FF today 17%!!!!! This is the grassroots.

Weren't you predicting that FF would be on 8% by now?

:rolleyes:

raymon · 28-05-2012 6:58am

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Weren't you predicting that FF would be on 8% by now?

:rolleyes:

Yes , I was predicting lower support. I was wrong

I cant see how they can poll 17% after what they did to the country.

RobbieTheRobber · 28-05-2012 9:54am

raymon wrote: »

Another terrible result for FF today 17%!!!!! This is the grassroots.

To read the articles in the FF weekly Newsletter ( Sunday Independent) , you would think that FF are turning a corner and that the government is near collapse.
Anne Harris' article was a piece of comedy about what a great leader Michael Martin is .

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anne-harris-ff-embarks-on-comeback-trail-3119617.html

This article is wrtitten by someone who's ex husband was a seanad appointee by bertie ahern :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I wish Ms Harris had preceeded the article with a small piece outlining how many times her family were guests at the fianna fail tent at the galway races.

Grassroots FF and the renewal of the party

Comments