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Ben Affleck vs. Sam Harris & Bill Maher on Real Time
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how on earth is it proving your point that the only thing preventing some christians in the US from murdering gays is the man made laws that govern them?
Because as I already said, these Christians are marginalised. They are on the Nth string of the extreme right. Just because you have the WBC, with a handful of members doesn't automatically mean that religious extremism is as big a problem in the US as say Iran or Saudi Arabia.
One must look at the numbers and assertain the degree of what we are talking about. The real IRA still exists in the country but do not pose an exestential threat to the Northern State (if you can call it that) or the republic unlike when the Provos emerged in the 60s'.
One could point to Anders Behring Breivik in Norway and thus confidently assume that Norway has a big a problem with extremism as Egypt (Muslim Brotherhood anyone?)0.000001% of Norway would agree with Breivik, yet the Muslim Brotherhood is quite popular in Egypt looking at the last election.We believe that Zionism, the United States, and England are gangs that kill children and women and men and destroy houses and fields. .... Zionism is a gang, not a country. So we will resist them until they don't have a countryIn October 2007, the Muslim Brotherhood issued a detailed political platform. Amongst other things it called for a board of Muslim clerics to oversee the government, and for limiting the office of the presidency to Muslim men. In the 'Issues and Problems' chapter of the platform, it declared that a woman was not suited to be president because the post's religious and military duties 'conflict with her nature, social and other humanitarian roles.' While underlining 'equality between men and women in terms of their human dignity,` the document warned against 'burdening women with duties against their nature or role in the family.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/15/us-women-un-rights-idUSBRE92E03D20130315
Put simply over half, yes half of the adult population of Egypt voted in favor of the Muslim Brotherhoods candidates with a view of implemented Sharia Law fully in Egypt and thus limiting the rights of Women and other minorities including Gays.0 -
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Still waiting on this from vibe666....
you mean something like, say the leader of a southern baptist megachurch (the 2nd largest christian denomination in the US) making a big speech vowing never to give up fighting against LGBT rights and not so subtly pointing his 3000 strong congregation in the direction of Leviticus 20:13?
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/tn-pastor-vows-not-to-repent-for-homophobia-god-says-gays-must-be-put-to-death/“God said that the sins of the people had infected the very land in which they live,” he explained. “So what happens to people who engage in this activity, this sexual immoral activity? Go to Leviticus 20, God gives us the punishment for engaging in these sins… ‘If a man sleeps with a man as with a woman, they have both committed a detestable thing. They must be put to death. And their blood is on their own hands.’”
something like that you mean?
southern baptists are a long way from being a marginalised minority group like the WBC nutbags, who also (entirely coincidentally i'm sure, are a southern baptist offshoot themselves).
southern baptists are the single largest protestant denomination in the US with 15.7 million members and are the 2nd largest christian denomination in the US as a whole after catholics.
as such (unsurprisingly), they carry major weight in US political and social circles thanks to having a previous US President and other major past and present politicians (such as the 13 of the below that are still currently in office) one or two of which could be potential future Republican presidential candidates, like the very popular GOP and far right (extremely anti-gay) golden boy senator Ted Cruz who would certainly get a very large portion of the conservative vote if he ran in the 2016 presidential elections.
and not just politicians either, celebrities such as Alton Brown, Billy Ray Cyrus, Dakota Fanning, Jessica Simpson and more are also SB's with lots of fans and influence.
And wouldn't you know it, most of the US pastors pushing the gay murdering laws in places like Uganda are also southern baptists, shock horror. :rolleyes:
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/17/1349571/southern-baptist-minister-encourages-ugandas-kill-the-gays-bill/
And it's not just abroad they are vocal about murdering people for being Gay, plenty have suggested it at home too: http://www.kshb.com/news/state/kansas/kansas-pastor-says-government-should-kill-homosexuals
And lets not forget the far right extreme anti-gay "family research council" is also a heavily financed core southern baptist institution: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/robert-gagnon-frc-bible-says-gay-sex-worse-incest
and they've had no end of hateful things to say about gay people and have already said publicly that they would happily ban homosexuality and homosexual acts entirely in the US if they could and would have no problem at all "punishing" people just for being gay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Research_Council#Statements_on_homosexualityIn February 2010, the Family Research Council's Senior Researcher for Policy Studies, Peter Sprigg, stated on NBC's Hardball that gay behavior should be outlawed and that "criminal sanctions against homosexual behavior" should be enforced.
next question?0 -
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The sun, moon and stars have aligned and I agree with Joseph Brand! What next? Liking mushrooms or joining People Before Profit!:pac:
Finally, you're right about something. "Even a stopped clock . . . "
Regarding mushrooms. Fry them in real butter, on a hot pan (they can take a lot of heat). Remove when done, and add ground rock salt. Delicious.0 -
Iran has executed over 4,000 people for Homosexual acts. Where is the liberal outrage?
Do we also need to talk about woman's rights? The rights of non believers and believers in other gods? Do you think its bat**** crazy that half of Muslim Nigerians think its acceptable to stone a woman to death for adultery? Where else in the world do so many people hold these beliefs in such numbers?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gay-saudi-arabian-man-sentenced-to-three-years-and-450-lashes-for-meeting-men-via-twitter-9628204.html
One has to careful about finding fault with Iran (even though it's from a theism/ atheism context) because of the Republican party. I have one friend who foams at the mouth at the mention of a few buzzwords:- Netanyahu
- Bush
- Cheney
- Rumsfeld
- Haliburton
- Monsanto
- Fox
Detestable characters/ entities by all accounts. No questions there. The problem is that if I find any fault with Syria, Gaza, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan etc albeit from a religious point of view, my friend's head will damn near explode! I talk religion, he talks politics. As an atheist himself, somehow the oppression in these countries must not be discussed.
Is there something I'm missing here? As a progressive liberal, I'm open to being enlightened and there's no better forum for clear intelligent answers. 0 -
Put simply people prefer to be anti-American/anti-Israel/anti-Western than being an actual liberal, hence many so called liberals are not that at all, they are just anti-american and anti-western and use the veil of liberalism as a cloak. Many of the older ones would have been supporters of the Soviet Union, says it all really. In fact many would prefer that American and Western interests be harmed hence why the soft spot for the likes of Iran when they have a tussle with the great Satan, USA.
Chris Andrews of Sinn Fein
You can be critical of American Foreign policy but it doesn't mean you cheer for the likes of Putin and Assad, basically selling your soul like a cheap hooker to the most desperate and brutal regimes around.
These are a prime example.
http://irishantiwar.org
We see it here in this thread. Sam Harris, whom I do not agree with everything he says but because he is Pro-Isreal then his views and opinions are not warranted and he is equated to a Glen Beck. Says more about the people making the accusation more than anything. If Harris was anti-Israel his $hit would smell of roses and the same points/opinons would be quoted everywhere.0 -
Typical, come on guys use some logic & nuance for a change
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not at all. it's not because it's Maher, I agree he makes a lot of good points and he is usually spot on with most of what he says, with only one or two exceptions.joseph brand wrote: »Maher hates all religions, but when Islam is criticised, people lose their sh*t? It must be because of his political statements on Israel.
hang on, wait. are you saying that it's NOT okay to tar everyone in an entire religion with the same brush just because of what extremists within that religion believe? i thought that's what we were doing now? :eek:How many gays has Billy Ray Cyrus actually murdered?
My own GP and the surgeon that performed major surgery on my spine earlier this year to keep me out of a wheelchair for the rest of my life are both muslim and both are aware that I'm an atheist, yet despite the fact that both have had ample opportunities to murder me and get away clean, neither of them have and indeed both of them are amongst the nicest people I have ever met and are pretty much friends of the family at this point due to the number of times I have visited them in the last year and I know my GP's family quite well at this point from meeting them at various points socially outside of the surgery. I've even seen several gays in both their waiting rooms during my many visits there in the last year or so and I don't for a minute believe that any of them were treated any differently than I was.
or maybe you think they're just waiting for the right moment to be able to behead me on TV? :rolleyes:
my point being, YES areas of Islam have a lot of work to do to join the rest of us in the 21st century, but much as not all christian denominations believe the same as southern baptists, not all muslims believe all non-muslims, gays, sluts and apostates deserve to be beheaded or stoned to death and many of them believe similar things and live their lives just as most of the rest of us do.
yep, pretty much identical to how a lot of christians feel about the bible. :rolleyes:Michael OBrien wrote: »The issue is the quran. As long as muslims consider it a perfectly revealed scripture it will rot any interpretation. Even peaceful interpretations are contaminated as they can easily be shown as misleading by a more aggressive muslim cleric. Many of the 'nicer' statements are abrogated by later revelations anyway that are more violent or intolerant.
The issue is that most people have no clue about Islam or how the quran works, or the way it is read, the history behind it, the importance placed on it
everything is open to interpretation (especially very old religious texts), that is why (much like christianity) there are many branches of Islam with different people believing different things.
for every nasty verse in the quran there is an equally nasty verse in the bible, just like there are nice, peaceful verses in both. it's not the book, it's the people who read it. if you are a nasty person, you will use the nastiness in it to justify your views and actions, exactly the same as any other religion.
this is exactly how 'loving' christians (amongst many other heinous crimes) can cherry pick parts of their good book to starve, freeze and beat their kids to death to 'discipline' them the way the bible tells them to.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/11/05/christian-parents-receive-massive-sentence-for-the-starving-and-freezing-death-of-their-adopted-daughter/
http://sparethekids.com/2011/08/christian-couple-beat-child-to-death-with-%E2%80%9Cbiblical-rod%E2%80%9D/
you can even buy a nice (shockingly popular) companion book to go with your bible explaining the best way to beat your child just like jesus would want you to. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/authoritarian-parenting.
there is good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things in (and outside of) every religion.You answered a different question to the one put.
So...
Its a simple question and no amount of red hearings will undo your imminent u-turn or non answer.
I said "I think" and I'm pretty sure, (unless you have recently been promoted?) you aren't the thought police and i'm free to have my own opinion on this or any other subject we might be discussing? you frequently express your own opinions without feeling the need to back up your claims with any empirical evidence, yet anyone who might hold a different opinion to yourself gets hounded to back up their own opinions with peer reviewed studies until they give up.
meanwhile, all i see is YOU conveniently sidestepping the simple fact that the far right wing leaders of the largest protestant denomination in the US (with a right wing anti-gay 2016 presidential candidate amongst their ranks) has not only funded and actively encouraged the "kill the gays" laws in Uganda etc. but has also publicly stated that in the US they would happily criminalise homosexuality and punish people just for being gay if they could, and in two years time, it's distinctly possible they could get that chance.
you've dismissed my opinions on the christian right in the US as only applying to tiny right wing minority groups like the WBC, but when I have shown YOUR opinion to be false, you have sidestepped that and have instead gone back to my first statement which is what has led to my following statements.
much like everyone else, we can disagree on certain issues, what those issues are and how best to deal with them.joseph brand wrote: »Is there something I'm missing here? As a progressive liberal, I'm open to being enlightened and there's no better forum for clear intelligent answers.
you can't 'kill' an ideology like radical islam and attempting to do so only makes them stronger, something i feel a lot more people should have learned after the bush/cheney "war on terror" that ISIS was essentially born out of.
the only way to kill radical islamic ideas is to work with the moderate muslim community to shift opinions within the muslim community to the left and further marginalise the more radical ideas and encourage the same enlightenment that (most of) christianity has had the time to experience in the west.
nothing being perpetrated by radical islamists is new, and you don't have to look too far back in history to see christians doing exactly the same things (and much worse) as ISIS are doing now.
would you care to back up your statement with empirical evidence at all? number crunching so to speak. What is the general mindset of liberals for example or how many liberals aren't actually liberal but are only pretending? :rolleyes:Put simply people prefer to be anti-American/anti-Israel/anti-Western than being an actual liberal, hence many so called liberals are not that at all, they are just anti-american and anti-western and use the veil of liberalism as a cloak. Many of the older ones would have been supporters of the Soviet Union, says it all really. In fact many would prefer that American and Western interests be harmed hence why the soft spot for the likes of Iran when they have a tussle with the great Satan, USA.0 -
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sorry, but hows that any different than millions of christians believing the bible to be 100% factual, literal, infallible word of god?Michael OBrien wrote: »I am going to politely say you have no clue what you are talking about.
The koran is NOT like the bible in many ways. I am an atheist, I am not being supportive of the bible or the hebrew bible or any of that. They also have their own issues.
the bible and the quran may be different in many ways, but they are both also very similar in many ways and are equally soaked in blood, probably even more so the bible if we're counting.
by virtue of the fact that none of the 50,000+ muslims in ireland have ever gone on a murderous rampage here and cut off anyones heads for not being muslim, I think we can pretty conclusively state that not all muslims are the same and that the quran IS open to interpretation, despite your assertion that i don't know what i'm talking about.
unless you think they're just waiting for the 'go' signal from ISIS of when they can all attack us at the same time?0 -
sorry, but hows that any different than millions of christians believing the bible to be 100% factual, literal, infallible word of god?
the bible and the quran may be different in many ways, but they are both also very similar in many ways and are equally soaked in blood, probably even more so the bible if we're counting.
by virtue of the fact that none of the 50,000+ muslims in ireland have ever gone on a murderous rampage here and cut off anyones heads for not being muslim, I think we can pretty conclusively state that not all muslims are the same and that the quran IS open to interpretation, despite your assertion that i don't know what i'm talking about.
unless you think they're just waiting for the 'go' signal from ISIS of when they can all attack us at the same time?
hmmm, first off I made no comment about muslims acting violently or not. I am purely discussing the quran. I don't believe muslims are generally violent. Most christians are generally pretty calm too, even though the christian bible is as immoral beyond belief.
Attitudes to the removal of fit'na (idol worship or attempts to lead muslims from the path) from the world is very important to the teachings of Muhammed.
The bible is indeed 'soaked' in blood however the quran is viewed by scholars differently too than the bible.
The bible was 'revealed' (using the most fundamentalist viewpoint) directly, but to many different authors over thousands of years. There is 66 books in it, not one. The majority of christian theologians are quite liberal in how they view those books compared with the masses.
The quran however is theologically believed to be ONE perfect book, that refers to ITSELF (something the bible does not as a whole) and mandates that it cannot be changed and that it is one of the greatest sins to even try.
It is supposedly made by God beforehand, and exists outside of time and space (the golden quran). The holy quran currently is a COPY of it supposedly. This does make a difference, at least it should if you believe in the creator of the universe and don't want to go to hell.
The morman leader Joe Smith actually used some of the features of the Islamic faith for his cult, including golden plates, given by an angel and taken back, revealed over time to suite his needs and with rules that changed older ones when suited. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on your viewpoint) allows for continuous revelation (hence the revision on blacks being treated badly by Mormons and polygamy) while the quran states that it is FINISHED and perfect and that there will be no more prophets until the end of the world.
These all matter when trying to make a dent in an outdated religion. I hope I made that point.
There are plenty of nicer passages that get interpreted by certain muslims, ESPECIALLY those that live in the West. The majority of muslims are NOT in the West, and a sizable majority of Muslims cannot read the quran for themselves (poor education) and rely on their imans to educate them, resulting in a very wide mix of viewpoints. However to counter those viewpoints the quran still remains an issue.
Here is an example: No complusion in religion. This is a VERY common statement by those making out that Islam is peaceful and compatible with the Western cultures.
This is not accurate and the history of Islam repeatedly shows that in practice.
The process of levying a tax on people of the book (jews and christians) to allow them to exist in an Islamic state under their 'protection' is one form of complusion.
Polytheists and atheists don't even get that option historically. Convert or leave (or die) is repeatedly the response.
Muhammed in Surah 9 promotes violence to make people join Islam. Read it yourself. This is the most perfect example that any muslim could wish for. Muhammed is loved beyond any other person in Islamic history.
Once you join you CANNOT leave Islam without complusion being put on you to return.
This deals with apostates. The quran is filled with threats of hellfire and allah constantly mocks and ridicules non believers in it at every opportunity in every way.
The concept of Dhimmi is that non muslims that refuse to convert but pay their protection tax are to be humbled. They are 2nd or 3rd class citizens. they are NEVER to be seen as equal or above a muslim.
I have read on Muslim forms that even bad muslims (those that don't follow Islam properly) are better than non believers who have no hope at all.
Once again I am not saying that your average western muslim cannot wait to kill you. No and if you read the quran you might understand why killing is only allowed in certain circumstances and in certain areas (Sharia implementation for example). Muslims are PEOPLE first and their own innate sense of morality means they shy away from the worst parts of the quran whenever they can. The problem is that the quran will ALWAYS have those parts and give authority for their reinactement if needed.0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN52CP2_F0U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t2QpBEUHk0
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