Ben Affleck vs. Sam Harris & Bill Maher on Real Time

Dave! · 05-10-2014 9:28pm #1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XduMMteTEbc

There has been a pretty strong reaction to this discussion by lots of people online. On Twitter at least it seems to be overwhelmingly in support of Affleck and nods of approval at his calling Harris a racist.

Anyone had any thoughts on it?

I think Affleck let himself down here, because he's a pretty smart and articulate guy, but in this case he mostly just shouted the others down and caricatured Harris' arguments.

DazMarz · 06-10-2014 8:09am

Affleck really came across as a total eejit in that video, to be honest. I have a lot of time for him, but he did really let himself down in that debate.

Dades · 06-10-2014 10:38am

DazMarz wrote: »

Affleck really came across as a total eejit in that video, to be honest. I have a lot of time for him, but he did really let himself down in that debate.

I have to agree.

I don't think he was even attempting to understand what was being said. Certainly threw out a bunch of straw-men in response. I don't think he could see through the red mist, tbh. Disappointing.

Turtwig · 06-10-2014 11:15am

Being cynical Affleck was making sure he didn't say or imply anything that would harm his film. Politicians do it all the time, you don't need to always argue a person's point to "win". I hate it but c'est la vie.

DazMarz · 06-10-2014 12:03pm

Yeah, he came across as too much of a tree-hugger for my liking. Too much of this "Can't we all just get along?" crap.

Go over and try and hug one of those ISIS lunatics, Ben. Let us know how you get on.

But again, he was like a politician there... saying a lot, but not actually saying anything. Along the lines of:

It is not correct, and if I said so, I was not correct – I cannot recall if I said it, but I did not say, or if I did, I did not mean to say it – that these issues could not be dealt with until the end.

Like playing handball against a hay stack. You hear a dull thud but the ball never comes back to you.

EDIT: Or even, god save us and bless us, "People should stop throwing white elephants and red herrings at each other"

Cabaal · 06-10-2014 2:58pm

I know the catholic church didn't kill people (as far as we are aware) in say 1950's Ireland,

But if you wrote the wrong thing, did the wrong thing or made a picture of the wrong thing that was against the church back then they could and did turn whole community's against a person,

Affleck didn't come across well but I see the argument he was trying to make,

vibe666 · 06-10-2014 3:08pm

Affleck could have done a lot better if he'd kept his cool, but he was on the money with a lot of what he was saying.

I think Reza Aslan responded to it best, although perhaps a tiny bit over enthusiastically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw

recedite · 07-10-2014 11:58pm

Here's the OP video again..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

vibe666 · 08-10-2014 9:13am

maher tagged this pew study on his facebook page, seemingly to make his point: http://tinyurl.com/mheey6u

but when you read it (properly) from start to finish it pretty much does the opposite.

it's basically an updated version of the old 80's reagan era "scary anti-american communist" hyperbole with a new 'enemy'.

if they did the same survey on christians in the US i wouldn't be at all surprised if there are more right wing extremists in christianity there than there are in islam, particularly looking at what is going on in the US at the moment.

jank · 08-10-2014 9:30am

vibe666 wrote: »

if they did the same survey on christians in the US i wouldn't be at all surprised if there are more right wing extremists in christianity there than there are in islam, particularly looking at what is going on in the US at the moment.

Yes, that is why there is a state run and controlled by right wing christian extremists who kill people for being gay/a woman/a different religion/a poly theist and who harbour genocidal tendencies against certain minorities.

On a serious note, can you substantiate any of your claims above or is it the usual 'they are all the same' type of monochromatic response to this problem.
If 80% of the people of say Utah thought that it would be acceptable for someone to die if they left the Mormon church then I would say you have a point, so now go ahead and prove it.

vibe666 · 08-10-2014 10:59am

jank wrote: »

Yes, that is why there is a state run and controlled by right wing christian extremists who kill people for being gay/a woman/a different religion/a poly theist and who harbour genocidal tendencies against certain minorities.

nice try, but there are plenty of right wing christians who would happily execute gays/sluts/atheists if they thought they could get away with it and MANY who have said it publicly.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/christian-broadcaster-ebola-could-cleanse-us-of-atheists-gay-people-and-sluts/

http://freethinker.co.uk/2010/05/26/christian-wackjob-calls-on-americans-to-behave-like-muslims-towards-gays/

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/01/08/christian-pastors-suggests-executing-gay-person-rose-bowl-parade-audio/

http://www.christianpost.com/news/bible-says-gays-should-be-executed-and-i-believe-every-word-says-arizona-pastor-99583/

and more "good christians" here, 8,000+ death threats on the faux new website after they had an atheist on.

http://www.rippdemup.com/uncategorized/christians-flood-the-fox-news-facebook-page-8000-death-to-atheists-comments-554

if I had the time and inclination I could go on literally all day and post dozens if not hundreds more.

Dades · 08-10-2014 11:03am

vibe666 wrote: »

if they did the same survey on christians in the US i wouldn't be at all surprised if there are more right wing extremists in christianity there than there are in islam, particularly looking at what is going on in the US at the moment.

Extremist insofar as they would kill someone? I highly doubt it.

vibe666 · 08-10-2014 11:05am

Dades wrote: »

Extremist insofar as they would kill someone? I highly doubt it.

too slow

Dades · 08-10-2014 11:20am

vibe666 wrote: »

too slow

You really think those internet dumbasses equate to actual militants?

vibe666 · 08-10-2014 12:29pm

Dades wrote: »

You really think those internet dumbasses equate to actual militants?

you think the US has a shortage of right wing militants?

8,000+ people recommending murder for atheists and you really don't think that in the country with the highest murder rate in the developed world, that ANY of those wingnuts would carry out one of those threats if they genuinely thought they could get away with it?

I think that behind every internet dumbass is a real dumbass tuning in to right wing radio and TV shows listening to the big dumbasses with thousands of followers linked in the above post telling them that they think it's perfectly acceptable to kills gays, sluts and/or atheists, with LGBT people in particular getting the shi*ty end of the stick in the US.

wherever there are people calling for violence against any minority, there will frequently be like minded individuals only too happy to carry it out and it has already happened MANY times in the US and internationally, even fairly recently here in Ireland.

jank · 08-10-2014 12:40pm

vibe666 wrote: »

Affleck could have done a lot better if he'd kept his cool, but he was on the money with a lot of what he was saying.

I think Reza Aslan responded to it best, although perhaps a tiny bit over enthusiastically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw

A rebuttal of Aslan's interview.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/10/05/reza-aslan-is-wrong-about-islam-and-this-is-why/

Also, Sam Harris has his say.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/can-liberalism-be-saved-from-itself

jank · 08-10-2014 12:58pm

vibe666 wrote: »

you think the US has a shortage of right wing militants?

8,000+ people recommending murder for atheists and you really don't think that in the country with the highest murder rate in the developed world, that ANY of those wingnuts would carry out one of those threats if they genuinely thought they could get away with it?

And in Islamic countries, with Sharia Law they could get away with it because the state is run under Islamic Laws. Islamic Clerics can use the power of the state to round up people they do not like and make their lives miserable However, the USA is not a state run by such laws, in fact the law protects minorities. You seem to think ramblings on the internet somehow equates to the same thing as actual action.

Is there a political group who enjoys large support in the United States for the killing of gays and women who commit adultery? More than half of Jordanians and Muslim Nigerians believe a woman should be stoned to death if they commit adultery. The figure for Iran and Egypt is closer to 80% Does a large minority of Utah believe this? No, I think not.

vibe666 wrote: »

I think that behind every internet dumbass is a real dumbass tuning in to right wing radio and TV shows listening to the big dumbasses with thousands of followers linked in the above post telling them that they think it's perfectly acceptable to kills gays, sluts and/or atheists, with LGBT people in particular getting the shi*ty end of the stick in the US.

Think what you want but you have no proof to back this claim. Anyway this has manifested itself into what? Where is the cryrslisation of these Internet dumbasses, or maybe they are internet dumbasses who say stupid **** on the web but won't actually do anything to further their 'cause'. Using random internet trolls to equate them to IS is a rather poor argument.

vibe666 wrote: »

wherever there are people calling for violence against any minority, there will frequently be like minded individuals only too happy to carry it out and it has already happened MANY times in the US and internationally, even fairly recently here in Ireland.

Yes, that is why there are is a thriving Gay scene in Tehran and not San Francisco.. of wait! Tbh your arguments are ludicrous.
"Look, someone in the USA/Ireland said mean things about gays, they are as bad as ISIS" Please please try harder...

The world is not black and white, sure someone who is gay in a small town in the US or Ireland may get a hard time (and this is improving all the time) but the law is on his side and it is a million miles away from being Gay in the Middle East where the law would put you in Jail and then kill you for it!!

It is amazing that people do not critique grotesque violations of human rights because they are performed by non-whites and they are at the moment the enemy of the United State government.

vibe666 · 08-10-2014 1:41pm

jank wrote: »

Yes, that is why there are is a thriving Gay scene in Tehran and not San Francisco.. of wait! Tbh your arguments are ludicrous.
"Look, someone in the USA/Ireland said mean things about gays, they are as bad as ISIS" Please please try harder...

maybe you should have another read?

Many people in the US AND several in Ireland have been beaten and murdered for nothing more than being gay, that is a tiny bit worse than harsh words, don't you think?

vibe666 · 08-10-2014 1:44pm

jank wrote: »

The world is not black and white, sure someone who is gay in a small town in the US or Ireland may get a hard time (and this is improving all the time) but the law is on his side and it is a million miles away from being Gay in the Middle East where the law would put you in Jail and then kill you for it!!

yet in Africa their nice new shiny anti-gay laws were encouraged and financed by right wing US pastors who can't get away with doing it on their own soil.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/us-religious-right-presse_0_n_1699610.html

The Black Oil · 08-10-2014 8:17pm

I listen to the Real Time podcast and am a bit behind, so I'll wait until I've heard it before saying more detailed.

'Liberals! Soft on Islam!' gets a lot of play. It's really an extension on 'PC gone mad!!'. Any sort of half-arsed analysis for a thank, like, retweet or thumbs up.

recedite · 08-10-2014 9:18pm

It was hard to know what exactly Affleck and Harris were arguing about. I'd say a lot of the knee-jerk reaction against Harris came from a misunderstanding of his position, thinking he was against muslims as people. Even though Harris specifically said that would be conflating two different things.
Affleck made a bad mistake by asking Harris if he understood the "officially codified doctrine of Islam". This just showed his ignorance of the fact that Islam is not one single "top down" religion; any scholar can become a cleric and teach his own interpretation of Islam. So those who advocate violent jihad can justify their actions by koranic texts, just as the moderates can justify their own very different interpretation.

Here's how I understand their little tiff, is this a fair summary?

Affleck; Most muslims are good people, but a minority are bad. Islam is not a bad religion and should not be blamed for corrupting the minds of the bad ones.
Harris; Most muslims are good people, but a minority are bad. Islam is a bad religion and is largely responsible for corrupting the minds of the bad ones.

jank · 09-10-2014 2:55am

vibe666 wrote: »

maybe you should have another read?

Many people in the US AND several in Ireland have been beaten and murdered for nothing more than being gay, that is a tiny bit worse than harsh words, don't you think?

As I said, this is against the Law. People who commit these crimes are usually held accountable by the law and sentenced accordingly.
Meanwhile in Arab states it is againstthe law to be Gay. Sharia law advocates the killing of homosexuals.

The law is on the side of those who wish to kill Gays in these states. In the US the Law is there to protect minorities.. quite a difference in terms don't you think?

By the way, when was the last time that someone was murdered for being Gay in Ireland? I cant remember a case.

jank · 09-10-2014 3:49am

vibe666 wrote: »

yet in Africa their nice new shiny anti-gay laws were encouraged and financed by right wing US pastors who can't get away with doing it on their own soil.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/us-religious-right-presse_0_n_1699610.html

Again, you are proving my point. They could not get away with that in the US hence why there is a moral and ethical difference. Again, I will ask you for the 3rd time how many people in Utah believe that it is OK to murder a woman who commits adultery.

Nodin · 09-10-2014 5:29am

jank wrote: »

As I said, this is against the Law. People who commit these crimes are usually held accountable by the law and sentenced accordingly.
Meanwhile in Arab states it is againstthe law to be Gay. Sharia law advocates the killing of homosexuals.
.................

It is against the law to be gay in a few states, not just "Arab" states, or muslim ones for that matter.

Absolam · 09-10-2014 6:15am

jank wrote: »

Meanwhile in Arab states it is againstthe law to be Gay. Sharia law advocates the killing of homosexuals.

Those are two different things.
Firstly, it's not terribly long since it was against the law to be gay (or to engage in homosexual acts) in non Arab (or as Nodin says, non Muslim) states like Ireland where it was against the law until 1993.
Secondly, Sharia doesn't advocate the killing of homosexuals; the Qur'an places no specific penalty on the sin. The hadiths pronouncing death for homosexual acts are considered 'weak' by Islamic jurists, which may well be why of the 40ish countries that incorporate sharia in their legal systems, only 4 have a death penalty for homosexual acts. States incorporating Sharia law don't exactly stand out in this regard either, since Christian/secular States such as the United Kingdom & USA have also historically had death penalties for homosexual activity (in the UKs case up until 1861).

jank wrote: »

The law is on the side of those who wish to kill Gays in these states. In the US the Law is there to protect minorities.. quite a difference in terms don't you think?

That's not really true; the law in those countries does not support private citizens murdering other private citizens for being gay. In your terminology; people who commit these crimes are held accountable by the law and sentenced accordingly. In the US people who commit crimes are also held accountable by the law and sentenced accordingly, which can result in the imposition of a death penalty. A penalty which appears to be disproportionately applied to minorities, so it doesn't seem to be very protective of them.

jank wrote: »

By the way, when was the last time that someone was murdered for being Gay in Ireland? I cant remember a case.

1982... Declan Flynn. In fairness, those who killed him were only convicted of manslaughter despite the fact that they beat him to death, but I think it reasonably counts as murder.

jank · 09-10-2014 7:22am

Nodin wrote: »

It is against the law to be gay in a few states, not just "Arab" states, or muslim ones for that matter.

Christ Nodin, if I said the sky was blue you would argue that it was turquoise.

Anyway, I will let this picture tell its own story.

Green for those who signed a UN General Assembly declaration of LGBT rights.
Red for those who signed a statement against this declaration.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/12/18/us-un-homosexuality-idUSTRE4BH7EW20081218

I wonder what do the Countries in red have most in common?

jank · 09-10-2014 7:53am

Absolam wrote: »

Those are two different things.
Firstly, it's not terribly long since it was against the law to be gay (or to engage in homosexual acts) in non Arab (or as Nodin says, non Muslim) states like Ireland where it was against the law until 1993.
Secondly, Sharia doesn't advocate the killing of homosexuals; the Qur'an places no specific penalty on the sin. The hadiths pronouncing death for homosexual acts are considered 'weak' by Islamic jurists, which may well be why of the 40ish countries that incorporate sharia in their legal systems, only 4 have a death penalty for homosexual acts. States incorporating Sharia law don't exactly stand out in this regard either, since Christian/secular States such as the United Kingdom & USA have also historically had death penalties for homosexual activity (in the UKs case up until 1861).

This constant vexing and false equivalence is intellectually dishonest. You mention that in the West other countries had peculiar ideas about homosexuality in the past. OK, whats the point? The West has grown up. It strengthens my point that Muslims countries are over represented in their beliefs about homosexuality. In 2014 this happened a few days ago
http://www.newstalk.com/Morocco-releases-British-tourist-jailed-for-being-gay

Now, Morocco would not be seen as one of the more fundamentalist countries but there you go. Iran has executed over 4,000 people for Homosexual acts. Where is the liberal outrage?

Do we also need to talk about woman's rights? The rights of non believers and believers in other gods? Do you think its bat**** crazy that half of Muslim Nigerians think its acceptable to stone a woman to death for adultery? Where else in the world do so many people hold these beliefs in such numbers?

Absolam wrote: »

That's not really true; the law in those countries does not support private citizens murdering other private citizens for being gay. In your terminology; people who commit these crimes are held accountable by the law and sentenced accordingly. In the US people who commit crimes are also held accountable by the law and sentenced accordingly, which can result in the imposition of a death penalty. A penalty which appears to be disproportionately applied to minorities, so it doesn't seem to be very protective of them.

Wow, have some glitter for your fabulous effort in trying to derail the conversation.
"USA have capital punishment"
"Minorities are over represented in executions"
"Therefore hate laws protecting gays from being murdered are null and void in an argument about gay rights"
"In conclusion the USA is more or less as bad as Saudi Arabia when it comes to Gay rights"

What a load of nonsense.

My point holds firm. In many Muslim majority country the law will imprison you and/or kill you for being gay. This is a fact!!

In the West including the US this is not the case. The law will protect minorities such as homosexuals from hate crimes. It is that simple.

Absolam wrote: »

1982... Declan Flynn. In fairness, those who killed him were only convicted of manslaughter despite the fact that they beat him to death, but I think it reasonably counts as murder.

I was not aware of that and thank you for sharing. Thankfully these incidents are rare and the West is growing more tolerant by the hour.

In contrast..
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gay-saudi-arabian-man-sentenced-to-three-years-and-450-lashes-for-meeting-men-via-twitter-9628204.html

vibe666 · 09-10-2014 9:01am

jank wrote: »

Again, you are proving my point. They could not get away with that in the US hence why there is a moral and ethical difference. Again, I will ask you for the 3rd time how many people in Utah believe that it is OK to murder a woman who commits adultery.

how on earth is it proving your point that the only thing preventing some christians in the US from murdering gays is the man made laws that govern them?

Absolam · 09-10-2014 10:06am

jank wrote: »

This constant vexing and false equivalence is intellectually dishonest. You mention that in the West other countries had peculiar ideas about homosexuality in the past. OK, whats the point?

It's intellectually dishonest to vex you? I hardly think so. Nor did I mention that in the West other countries had peculiar ideas about homosexuality in the past; most countries in the west have held homosexuality to be a criminal activity.
Western nations have criminalised homosexuality; this was not peculiar, it was pretty common across the West
Eastern nations have criminalised homosexuality; this is not peculiar, it's pretty common across the East.
These things are evidently equivalent, both have done the same thing.

jank wrote: »

The West has grown up.

I can see how that might be the point of view of someone brought up in the west. An equally subjective point of view might be that the West has grown morally senile. I suppose it depends how you look at it.

jank wrote: »

It strengthens my point that Muslims countries are over represented in their beliefs about homosexuality.

That might bear explaining. Overrepresented where, and how?

jank wrote: »

In 2014 this happened a few days ago Now, Morocco would not be seen as one of the more fundamentalist countries but there you go. Iran has executed over 4,000 people for Homosexual acts. Where is the liberal outrage?

You seem to be expressing it. Yes Iran is one of the four countries where sodomy is punishable by death. Based on this should we be invading Uzbekistan in order to ban Islam there? Or would you be content with a Crusade in Iran?

jank wrote: »

Do we also need to talk about woman's rights? The rights of non believers and believers in other gods? Do you think its bat**** crazy that half of Muslim Nigerians think its acceptable to stone a woman to death for adultery? Where else in the world do so many people hold these beliefs in such numbers?

I don't know, do we? Are we going to paint all Muslims with the same brush, or are we going to consider that religion is evidently not be the sole factor influencing behavior in places like Nigeria and Iran?

jank wrote: »

Wow, have some glitter for your fabulous effort in trying to derail the conversation.

Sorry did you lose track?
You said that the law supported people killing gays in 'these' countries, and I pointed out that the law does not support people commiting murder. You pointed out that the US law protects minorities and I pointed out that US law executes a disproportionate number of members of minorities. Hope that helps you back on track.

jank wrote: »

"USA have capital punishment" "Minorities are over represented in executions" "Therefore hate laws protecting gays from being murdered are null and void in an argument about gay rights" "In conclusion the USA is more or less as bad as Saudi Arabia when it comes to Gay rights"
What a load of nonsense.

True, a load of nonsense. But you said it, not me.

jank wrote: »

My point holds firm. In many Muslim majority country the law will imprison you and/or kill you for being gay. This is a fact!!In the West including the US this is not the case. The law will protect minorities such as homosexuals from hate crimes. It is that simple.

This is a fact. It's also a fact that homosexuality has only relatively recently been decriminalised in Western countries, it's also a fact that gay bashings do occur, even in the wonderfully protective US of A, it's also a fact that people are still ostracised, bullied, and even killed for being gay. It doesn't take being Muslim, or living in a Muslim country, for this to happen.

Dades · 09-10-2014 10:18am

We seem to be side-stepping the relevant point here. Absolam are you agreeing with vibe's suggestion that there's possibly more militant Christians than Muslims seriously advocating death for things such as homosexuality?

Because this is the contention that jank is debating.

Absolam · 09-10-2014 11:22am

Dades wrote: »

We seem to be side-stepping the relevant point here. Absolam are you agreeing with vibe's suggestion that there's possibly more militant Christians than Muslims seriously advocating death for things such as homosexuality? Because this is the contention that jank is debating.

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the notion; there are plenty of fundamental Christians who would advocate biblical punishments for sins. Or at least, I wouldn't be quick to dismiss the notion that an equivalent proportion of Christians hold similarly fundamentalist views to their Muslim counterparts.

I suspect that not all Muslims living in the more rabid theocracies (never mind the millions of secular Muslims who don't) are as enthusiastic about the robust interpretation of their religion as they may feel obliged to appear to be; I think the fact that in some places you can't get away with not shouting 'stone the sodomites' may affect some peoples voices just as much as the fact that in some places you can't get away with shouting 'stone the sodomites' affects others.

Ben Affleck vs. Sam Harris & Bill Maher on Real Time

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