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Proposal to reform Leaving Cert grading

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    #32
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,131 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    Private schools significantly outperform the national average.
    Could you provide a link for this please?


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    #33
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    Below is a table of self-reported data. It shows the percentages of each school's 2013 (except where indicated otherwise) graduating year that had a points score of 400+ and 500+. Maths Bonus Points are not included in the National figures whereas they are in schools' figures.

    School 400+ 500+
    Blackrock 72% 37%
    St Columba's 74% 34%
    Holy Child 78% 40%
    St Kilian's - 47%
    Rathdown 64% 36%
    Sutton Park 50% -
    Loreto, Dalkey (2012) 74% 24%
    Teresian (2012) 80% 28%
    King's Hospital (2012) 54% 21%
    Loreto, Foxrock (2012) - 30%
    National 33% 10%


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    #34
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,131 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    Below is a table of self-reported data. It shows the percentage of each school's graduating year in 2013 (except where indicated otherwise) that had a points score of 400+ and 500+. Maths Bonus Points are not included in the National figures whereas they are in schools' figures.

    School 400+ 500+
    Blackrock 72% 37%
    St Columba's 74% 34%
    Holy Child 78% 40%
    St Kilian's - 47%
    Rathdown 64% 36%
    Sutton Park 50% -
    Loreto, Dalkey (2012) 74% 24%
    Teresian (2012) 80% 28%
    King's Hospital (2012) 54% 21%
    Loreto, Foxrock (2012) - 30%
    National 33% 10%

    It also doesn't include performance levels at intake. So, the students in these schools perform well, not necessarily the schools.

    If your Porsche does 100kph and my bicycle does 95kph - is your Porsche performing better?

    I can't see how the suggested changes to LC grading are either necessary or in any way helpful.


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    #35
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    spurious wrote: »
    It also doesn't include performance levels at intake. So, the students in these schools perform well, not necessarily the schools.

    I am more than well aware of that. I was responding to a poster who said that the LC was without bias because "the students who work the hardest earn their places", and I think I've demonstrated that to be untrue.


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    #36
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    I am more than well aware of that. I was responding to a poster who said that the LC was without bias because "the students who work the hardest earn their places", and I think I've demonstrated that to be untrue.

    Not really. Private schools such as the ones you listed with fees automatically exclude students from socio economic backgrounds that can't afford to attend. They also tend not to accept their fair share of students with learning difficulties and behavioural problems. If their patents are paying for them to attend they are generally earning a decent wage. Those parents are earning a salary which is reflective of perhaps business ownership or a third level education which has led to work with higher remuneration than the industrial average. They tend to be interested in their child's education and can afford to throw money at it to fix any shortcomings - grinds. Those students will achieve wherever they go because they have support.

    However I work in a town where 60% of housing is social housing, unemployment is high, job opportunities are few and there is nothing for third level graduates unless you are going into the family business. Many students come from families with no history of sttending third level bon some houses there is no history of employment. Despite all of this more than 50% of our students are going to third level because they are achieving and want to achieve and some of them are coming from these backgrounds. More do PLCs and go on to college that way.

    The students I teach don't have a private school on their cv. They don't list a Leinster senior cup medal on their list of achievements. Daddy doesn't know a barrister who knows someone in the law faculty at the university. The points system allows them to apply for places in university alongside the private school students and be accepted on only their points if they put the work in.

    If the schools you listed above even had a fraction of the student cohort my school has you would soon see those percentages come back in line with national average.


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    #37
    JDOC1996
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭JDOC1996


    I think you're wrong when you say that people with private education tend to do better.
    For example, I attend a public school where the results are nearly always as good , if not better than the nearest grinds school.
    It's down to the students at the end of the day, if they work to there potential they'll get what they want. That's what makes our system so fair the way it is. It gives everyone a decent opportunity to do well.


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    #38
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Not really. Private schools such as the ones you listed with fees automatically exclude students from socio economic backgrounds that can't afford to attend. They also tend not to accept their fair share of students with learning difficulties and behavioural problems. If their patents are paying for them to attend they are generally earning a decent wage. Those parents are earning a salary which is reflective of perhaps business ownership or a third level education which has led to work with higher remuneration than the industrial average. They tend to be interested in their child's education and can afford to throw money at it to fix any shortcomings - grinds. Those students will achieve wherever they go because they have support.

    However I work in a town where 60% of housing is social housing, unemployment is high, job opportunities are few and there is nothing for third level graduates unless you are going into the family business. Many students come from families with no history of sttending third level bon some houses there is no history of employment. Despite all of this more than 50% of our students are going to third level because they are achieving and want to achieve and some of them are coming from these backgrounds. More do PLCs and go on to college that way.

    The students I teach don't have a private school on their cv. They don't list a Leinster senior cup medal on their list of achievements. Daddy doesn't know a barrister who knows someone in the law faculty at the university. The points system allows them to apply for places in university alongside the private school students and be accepted on only their points if they put the work in.

    If the schools you listed above even had a fraction of the student cohort my school has you would soon see those percentages come back in line with national average.

    I am contending the the LC is not the paragon of fairness that a poster above suggested. Please be conscious that what I'm saying now is self-deprecating and generously revealing:

    I attended the private school that has consistently been the top feeder to Trinity over the last decade. On the first day of fifth year, our headmaster (whom we rarely saw at any other time than supporting the rugby teams) gathered us for an assembly, got a third of us to stand up, and said, "All of you will get 500 points or more". He then had another third stand up, and said, "All of you will get four hundred points or more". As you will agree, when in an environment where the difficulty of achieving such points is down-played, where a third of the year goes on to TCD and another third to UCD, where class sizes are small (I had six in my physics class (though, admittedly, that is unrepresentative)), and where soci-economic factors don't hinder education, an achievement that would be exceptional in DEIS school could be average in mine.

    In only considering one's points-score, the CAO is woefully deficient because it fails to recognise exceptional "disadvantaged" students.

    We agree about fee-paying schools and the reasons for their performance; we disagree, however, that the means by which universities select students is fair.


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    #39
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    JDOC1996 wrote: »
    I think you're wrong when you say that people with private education tend to do better.
    For example, I attend a public school where the results are nearly always as good , if not better than the nearest grinds school.
    It's down to the students at the end of the day, if they work to there potential they'll get what they want. That's what makes our system so fair the way it is. It gives everyone a decent opportunity to do well.

    How can you know that that is the case. Does your school publish data? Because, most don't. As you'll see from my reply to rainbowtrout, I wholeheartedly disagree that it is "down to the student".


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    #40
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    How can you know that that is the case. Does your school publish data? Because, most don't. As you'll see from my reply to rainbowtrout, I wholeheartedly disagree that it is "down to the student".

    No, they don't but the league table ( I hate league tables) published in the Times every year shows how many students in the top 400 schools in Ireland went to university. The breakdown is always given for how many enter the 7 universities. It may not given points but it certainly given an indication of points achieved by the percentage attending university from those schools.


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    #41
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    No, they don't but the league table ( I hate league tables) published in the Times every year shows how many students in the top 400 schools in Ireland went to university. The breakdown is always given for how many enter the 7 universities. It may not given points but it certainly given an indication of points achieved by the percentage attending university from those schools.

    And, most of the highest performing schools are always fee-paying. I'm disappointed that you didn't respond to my previous post.

    Feeder schools list (2010)

    Note: "high points courses" defined as being the courses of the seven universities and DIT - that the points range is 260-585 calls into question the worth of that analysis.


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    #42
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    Someone raised the point that if an interview system was introduced, people would get in through relations and nepotism.

    However, if we acknowledge that points received and ability for a course are not the same, how can we maintain at least perceived fairness?

    Recently we see this in Computer Science, with points skyrocketing in recent years. DCU has started a portfolio based entry to "Problem Solving and Software Development" seemingly in response to the fact that people who would be perfect for CS don't get in due to high points (high demand).


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