Bus Eireann strike - services have resumed (Read first post)

sofireland · 12-05-2013 6:34pm

I was thinking more the money for train fare etc that we will have to spend. Be at least 6 euro a day plus the petrol to get to the park n ride.

My employer bought the pass from Bus Eireann for me. So BE do the refund?

devnull · 12-05-2013 6:38pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The General Secretary of the NBRU has signalled that he expects that the strike will spread throughout CIÉ if it is allowed continue..

Sure, the strike has nothing to do with them does it?

hmmm · 12-05-2013 6:40pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The General Secretary of the NBRU has signalled that he expects that the strike will spread throughout CIÉ if it is allowed continue. That would shut down Iarnród Éireann, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann.

I'm not sure what's in it for the workers in the other companies. If BE employees "win" their strike, it will benefit all the CIE company staff. If they "lose", the only people who lose money are the BE workers.

If everyone goes out, there is likely to be a ferocious backlash from the travelling public, and it comes at a time where the government simply hasn't the money to give in to their demands. There would never be a better time for them to introduce fundamental change in the way our public transport system operates.

The other "advantage" to the government for having a transport strike is that striking transport workers are not seen by the public as particularly sympathetic. Striking teachers and nurses bring emotional responses, striking bus or train drivers only brings anger and irritation. If the government knows that they will have to face down some public sector strikes, having transport workers first out of the blocks would be a godsend in terms of PR.

Outkast_IRE · 12-05-2013 6:45pm

If it carries on for any decent period , people will start carpooling more- if they do this for any period of time they will realise why the hell would they bother going back to the bus.

Sierra Oscar · 12-05-2013 6:54pm

devnull wrote: »

Sure, the strike has nothing to do with them does it?

Well Iarnród Éireann and Dublin Bus workers are clashing with management also over cost cutting proposals, but you are right in saying that this conflict is confined to Bus Éireann.

Not exactly sure as to how it would spread to Iarnród Éireann and Dublin Bus.

devnull · 12-05-2013 6:56pm

I more was referring to the comments by the union saying if the strike was allowed to carry on.

The word allowed makes it seems like the strike is not something they have any control over.

Sierra Oscar · 12-05-2013 7:00pm

devnull wrote: »

I more was referring to the comments by the union saying if the strike was allowed to carry on.

The word allowed makes it seems like the strike is not something they have any control over.

Apologies, I was not quoting directly - he meant if it was to continue. Basically trying to get management to be the ones to press for negotiations by the sounds of it, which could lead to concessions.

cdebru · 12-05-2013 7:17pm

Del2005 wrote: »

The country doesn't have the €5 million to give. The total tax take for Ireland it ~€30bn and we spend ~€50, how is that sustainable?

The unions where happy enough to agree with management when money was being thrown at them through social partnership. Now they have to prove their worth and try and save their members jobs as that's what's on the line here, lower working conditions or no work when the company goes bust.

It's no good saying no we won't accept pay and allowance cuts unless they offer an alternative that'll save a similar amount without affecting pay and conditions. The problem is that there's nothing that save that much.

Actually total revenue was 56.6 billion and total expenditure was 68.8 billion in 2012 of which almost 6 billion was in interest payments ( look up rewarding failure). But it was a gap 12.2 billion not 20 billion so I just saved us 7.8 billion given your cribbing about 5 million you would think you wouldn't let 7.8 billion slip past you but you did.

What is not sustainable is taking money out of the pockets of workers year after year in tax increases, charges, prsi allowance and pay cuts and expecting the country to recover.

The problem is that the cuts as currently arranged target those that work shifts almost exclusively, why should it only be those workers who are expected to carry the can ? When BE spokesman says they are protecting core pay what he means is that the management and administration will not lose a penny as they don't work shifts.

cdebru · 12-05-2013 7:23pm

devnull wrote: »

I more was referring to the comments by the union saying if the strike was allowed to carry on.

The word allowed makes it seems like the strike is not something they have any control over.

It is not something they have control over. BE has made unilateral changes to employment contracts. ( you know the employment contracts we are always told can't be touched when some enormous wage or pension is uncovered in the banking sector). Working would be de facto accepting those changes so it is not under their control.

Delta2113 · 12-05-2013 7:25pm

"Not exactly sure as to how it would spread to Iarnród Éireann and Dublin Bus."

- Very easy e.g. if a BE worker is suspended or if BE workers start picketing Dublin Bus garages for an example.

devnull · 12-05-2013 7:38pm

cdebru wrote: »

What is not sustainable is taking money out of the pockets of workers year after year in tax increases, charges, prsi allowance and pay cuts and expecting the country to recover.

The country is spending more than it is bringing in, when outgoings are higher than income, you have three options

1) Increase Income
2) Cut Outgoings
3) A mixture of the above

The problem is that the cuts as currently arranged target those that work shifts almost exclusively, why should it only be those workers who are expected to carry the can ? When BE spokesman says they are protecting core pay what he means is that the management and administration will not lose a penny as they don't work shifts.

Because they were being paid extra for shifts which is not sustainable int he current climate, just like it is not for people in other sectors and in other companies in the same sector. And they will still be paid more after the changes for shifts, just at a lower rate than at present.

Core pay is defined as your basic wage before any allowances or bonus etc, this is basically guaranteed pay no matter what you do, everything else is extra depending on the circumstances etc.

cdebru wrote: »

It is not something they have control over. BE has made unilateral changes to employment contracts. Working would be de facto accepting those changes so it is not under their control.

They have the choice if they strike or not, to accept the new terms and conditions or not, therefore they have a choice whether to strike or not. Both sides can assist the current situation and help resolve it. Both sides at the moment are too busy blaming each other rather than talking.

As I said I have some sympathy with workers as I believe they are taking a bigger hit than they should, but the attitude of some people on here thinking that they can carry on as it was before with no changes is making me start to lose that sympathy.

cdebru · 12-05-2013 7:45pm

Changing a Contract of Employment

Changing or varying the terms and conditions of a contract of employment can only be done with the agreement of the parties. An employer is leaving him/herself open to a successful claim if he imposes changes to a contractual entitlement unilaterally. It is worth noting that agreement can be express, implied, or by acquiescence.

From here http://employmentrightsireland.com/tag/changing-an-employment-contract/

gbob · 12-05-2013 7:51pm

cdebru wrote: »

From here http://employmentrightsireland.com/tag/changing-an-employment-contract/

That's one of the points I have been trying to get across.. it seems some here are unwillingly to accept that all employees have rights, even public sector workers.

cdebru · 12-05-2013 8:00pm

devnull wrote: »

The country is spending more than it is bringing in, when outgoings are higher than income, you have three options

1) Increase Income
2) Cut Outgoings
3) A mixture of the above

Because they were being paid extra for shifts which is not sustainable int he current climate, just like it is not for people in other sectors and in other companies in the same sector. And they will still be paid more after the changes for shifts, just at a lower rate than at present.

Core pay is defined as your basic wage before any allowances or bonus etc, this is basically guaranteed pay no matter what you do, everything else is extra depending on the circumstances etc.

They have the choice if they strike or not, to accept the new terms and conditions or not, therefore they have a choice whether to strike or not. Both sides can assist the current situation and help resolve it. Both sides at the moment are too busy blaming each other rather than talking.

As I said I have some sympathy with workers as I believe they are taking a bigger hit than they should, but the attitude of some people on here thinking that they can carry on as it was before with no changes is making me start to lose that sympathy.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2012/05/growth

Might help you understand why austerity is not working 6 years on some of you still obviously have not grasped it.

If your job involves shifts the shift allowances are part of your core pay, expecting one section to carry the can is just unfair. The Government tried this trick on the Gardai, Nurses etc it wasn't fair then it is not fair now.

And see my post about employment rights and contract changes and acquiescence to those changes as possibly be viewed as acceptance.

SandyfordGuy · 12-05-2013 8:08pm

Don't worry, employment rights won't matter when you're all on the dole because the company has gone bust because you are thinking of yourself rather than the bigger picture, then the many unemployed people who would love to have your jobs can pick them up.

It's a shame though that the thread has now been hijacked by a group of people that are looking to make some political gain rather than discuss the topic that is at hand. However this does not surprise me.

For what it's worth, having read this thread a little today but not yet posted, you've managed to alienate another person from your cause due to your lack of living in the real world.

Congratulations.

gbob · 12-05-2013 8:23pm

The unfortunate truth is there may be people who would be better off on the dole if more pay cuts are forced on them.

Cherry_Cola · 12-05-2013 8:24pm

Apologies for the off topic nature of my post but are trains running as normal?

cdebru · 12-05-2013 8:25pm

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

Don't worry, employment rights won't matter when you're all on the dole because the company has gone bust because you are thinking of yourself rather than the bigger picture, then the many unemployed people who would love to have your jobs can pick them up.

It's a shame though that the thread has now been hijacked by a group of people that are looking to make some political gain rather than discuss the topic that is at hand. However this does not surprise me.

For what it's worth, having read this thread a little today but not yet posted, you've managed to alienate another person from your cause due to your lack of living in the real world.

Congratulations.

Won't be my job afraid to disappoint you I dont work for BE.

I'm sure the NBRU are devastated to learn they can no longer rely on your support, it sounded like you were right there with them up to this thread. Perhaps Micheal Faherty is considering just telling to go back to work now he had learnt you have gone overboard.

gbob · 12-05-2013 8:29pm

Cherry_Cola wrote: »

Apologies for the off topic nature of my post but are trains running as normal?

As of now yes, support for striking workers is uncertain at the minute.

devnull · 12-05-2013 8:34pm

The dole is just shy of €10,000 per year year
€188 per week x 52 weeks

Even if you are paid the minimum wage of €8.65 an hour at 40 hours a week
€346 per week x 52 weeks = €17.992

Of course there is tax and USC on that but you are still left with €17,115.

I'm sure that you are paid a lot more than minimum wage, so to even to compare yourself to those on the dole even after the cuts is a plain insult to the people who are less well off than you.

SandyfordGuy · 12-05-2013 8:40pm

gbob wrote: »

The unfortunate truth is there may be people who would be better off on the dole if more pay cuts are forced on them.

Well Bus Eireann workers certainly wouldn't be one of them, which is the topic of this thread isn't it? But then again why let that get in the way of someone who is ignoring the on thread topic and turning this into a bunch of politics which the moderators have already told them not to.

gbob · 12-05-2013 8:40pm

devnull wrote: »

The dole is just shy of €10,000 per year year
€188 per week x 52 weeks

Even if you are paid the minimum wage of €8.65 an hour at 40 hours a week
€346 per week x 52 weeks = €17.992

Of course there is tax and USC on that but you are still left with €17,115.

I'm sure that you are paid a lot more than minimum wage, so to even to compare yourself to those on the dole even after the cuts is a plain insult to the people who are less well off than you.

Now take into account childcare costs, fuel costs, medical card, housing benefit and possibly more s/w entitlements than I might be aware of and the gap becomes a lot narrower.

howiya · 12-05-2013 8:41pm

devnull wrote: »

The dole is just shy of €10,000 per year year
€188 per week x 52 weeks

Even if you are paid the minimum wage of €8.65 an hour at 40 hours a week
€346 per week x 52 weeks = €17.992

Of course there is tax and USC on that but you are still left with €17,115.

I'm sure that you are paid a lot more than minimum wage, so to even to compare yourself to those on the dole even after the cuts is a plain insult to the people who are less well off than you.

The problem with the dole is that what you've quoted is for the single person. Add in payment for the spouse, payment for each child, rent allowance etc, there are probably many on welfare collecting €40,000 per annum. The government needs to cut down on welfare and they would have the money to subvent Bus Eireann

SandyfordGuy · 12-05-2013 8:44pm

zzzzzzz - any chance of getting back on topic?

devnull · 12-05-2013 8:49pm

howiya wrote: »

The problem with the dole is that what you've quoted is for the single person. Add in payment for the spouse, payment for each child, rent allowance etc, there are probably many on welfare collecting €40,000 per annum.

In some cases yes - but not in all etc. But my point is you'd think from some of the way BE staff go on that they were earning close to minimum wage and the lowest rate of the dole since they always say the dole is so low.

But if they can't live on €40,000 each per annum there is something wrong somewhere since a lot of people living in this country, some of which I know, are living on far less.

SandyfordGuy · 12-05-2013 8:51pm

zzzzzzzz more politics.

gbob · 12-05-2013 8:55pm

devnull wrote: »

But if they can't live on €40,000 each per annum there is something wrong somewhere since a lot of people living in this country, some of which I know, are living on far less.

And some of them wear a BE uniform

devnull · 12-05-2013 8:56pm

But the average wage is much higher at around €51,000 but obviously there is no way of telling who is at what end of the pay scale in the public domain from the accounts or anything like that.

So if there are a lot of people on under €40,000 but the average is €10,000 higher it means there has to be a large chunk above that as well.

That includes 502 part time school drivers as well who would be on considerably less than the other staff which would distort the figure downwards somewhat as well.

SandyfordGuy · 12-05-2013 9:07pm

How many staff in Bus Eireann are drivers?

Take the part time school drivers out who can't be doing more than fifteen to twenty- hours a week and you'd guess it'd be nearer 60k on average for a staff member in pay, since part time works will drag the average down.

It would be nice if we could have a serious discussion about your pay on here, but considering the pay figures being disclosed clearly do not correlate with the accounts it's clear that people are not being honest on here.

Either way, they are paid more than nurses it seems now, that is where our money is going on they have the ****ing cheek to moan that they are underpaid.

And this when the country is struggling and nurses and the Garda are being paid less. What a ****ing joke, the irony of these people going on about greed, what a bunch of ****ing hypocrites. Makes my blood boil,, hope the lot of you lose your jobs.

markpb · 12-05-2013 9:26pm

Delta2113 wrote: »

"Not exactly sure as to how it would spread to Iarnród Éireann and Dublin Bus."

Very easy e.g. if a BE worker is suspended or if BE workers start picketing Dublin Bus garages for an example.

I thought that was illegal?

Hilly Bill · 12-05-2013 9:28pm

€60 grand?? I doubt it very much that the average wage is over a grand a week , inspectors maybe but not your average worker. Sandy, you are giving about something that you really dont know much about. Hoping that someone loses their jobs is a disgraceful to be honest.

Laviski · 12-05-2013 9:28pm

bus drivers making more than 40k a year? get real and be thankful first for having a job and second for getting that much money to drive a bus. People in the haulage business would only dream to get that much a year and they have worse conditions than yourselves.

Get Real and get back to work.

their basic is just over 30k and if they do shift work, sunday, public holidays that can push the majority up to 45k a year.

n97 mini · 12-05-2013 9:30pm

howiya wrote: »

The government needs to cut down on welfare and they would have the money to subvent Bus Eireann

Would it not be better to spend any social welfare savings on easing the tax burden on us, rather than using it to subvent BE?

SandyfordGuy · 12-05-2013 9:30pm

Well SIPTU staff went on strike today along with the TSSA despite the fact they haven't even held a ballot yet.

But if the average was is €51,000 and around 20% of the staff are part time school bus drivers, how much do you think thelater are on? Even if they are paid €30k which is highly unlikely then taking them out would push the average pay to €60k

Hilly Bill · 12-05-2013 9:30pm

Laviski wrote: »

bus drivers making more than 40k a year? get real and be thankful first for having a job and second for getting that much money to drive a bus. People in the haulage business would only dream to get that much a year and they have worse conditions than yourselves.

Get Real and get back to work.

Driving a bus is one thing, having the lives of hundreds of people a day in your hands and having to take abuse from some of them is another.

Laviski · 12-05-2013 9:32pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Driving a bus is one thing, having the lives of hundreds of people a day in your hands and having to take abuse from some of them is another.

don't like then join the q with the 400k others in the social welfare office.

there are plenty of jobs that most have done and not enjoy and i'm sure they don't get 45k a year.

devnull · 12-05-2013 9:32pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

€60 grand?? I doubt it very much that the average wage is over a grand a week , inspectors maybe but not your average worker. Sandy, you are giving about something that you really dont know much about. Hoping that someone loses their jobs is a disgraceful to be honest.

Well there is clearly no way in working out how much each grade of worker is getting paid since that is not published in the accounts, but the average pay in BE is €51,000 for just over 2,600 staff and as has been pointed out that is including over 500 part time workers.

The information is there to see in the annual accounts.

Hilly Bill · 12-05-2013 9:37pm

devnull wrote: »

Well there is clearly no way in working out how much each grade of worker is getting paid since that is not published in the accounts, but the average pay in BE is €51,000 for just over 2,600 staff and as has been pointed out that is including over 500 part time workers.

The information is there to see in the annual accounts.

Wouldnt the wage of the top brass inflate the average wage on paper ? It doesnt mean that every BE employee is on that wage.

tayto lover · 12-05-2013 9:37pm

Laviski wrote: »

don't like then join the q with the 400k others in the social welfare office.

there are plenty of jobs that most have done and not enjoy and i'm sure they don't get 45k a year.

That silly old argument has been done to death. They already have jobs so do not need to join the 400k unemployed.
What they are trying to do is protect their terms and conditions and that is their right.

gbob · 12-05-2013 9:40pm

Nobody is claiming they are underpaid, they are saying the same as everyone else that they can't afford another pay cut while executives and management are not subject to the same cuts as they are.

The basic wage for a BE driver on the top scale is around 33k gross. There are many that dont do overtime or get shift allowances or work sundays and would earn very little over the basic. That is a fact, those people can not afford cuts. Simple as that. One man has told me if the cuts go through he will loose 10k pa and will be better off on the dole. And you'll get your wish.

devnull · 12-05-2013 9:42pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Wouldnt the wage of the top brass inflate the average wage on paper ? It doesnt mean that every BE employee is on that wage.

Yes it would but it's still average so whilst there are 500 people who are part their total salary would be quite low in comparison to full time workers, this would pull the average down quite a bit because there are so many of them.

However a few at the top would pull it a little in the other direction as well, but realistically there cannot be many who are earning the 70-80k plus mark, certainly nowhere near 500. So it would have less impact on the average. I'd say however many there are though is too many and that I will agree with staff on.

devnull · 12-05-2013 9:47pm

tayto lover wrote: »

That silly old argument has been done to death. They already have jobs so do not need to join the 400k unemployed.
What they are trying to do is protect their terms and conditions and that is their right.

But if the company goes bust as it is paying wages it cannot afford then they will be on the dole.

gbob wrote: »

The basic wage for a BE driver on the top scale is around 33k gross. There are many that dont do overtime or get shift allowances or work sundays and would earn very little over the basic. That is a fact, those people can not afford cuts. Sime as that. One man has told me if the cuts go through he will loose 10k pa and will be better off on the dole. And you'll get your wish.

And I don't have any problem with people earning 33k gross and I don't think that is overpaid All I am saying is there are some people who must be earning much more than that with all the perks and and that is the problem at the end of the day. You say that these people can't afford cuts but they won't be getting barely any cuts since basic pay is untouched so defeat your own argument there.

Somebody may be losing 10k but what are they on before and after is the question I would ask? And as I've said before also, if someone is working overtime every week all year long that is the sign of bad management and terrible use of resources and shouldn't be allowed to happen, that is not what overtime is for.

nomoreindie · 12-05-2013 9:49pm

gbob wrote: »

Nobody is claiming they are underpaid, they are saying the same as everyone else that they can't afford another pay cut while executives and management are not subject to the same cuts as they are.

The basic wage for a BE driver on the top scale is around 33k gross. There are many that dont do overtime or get shift allowances or work sundays and would earn very little over the basic. That is a fact, those people can not afford cuts. Sime as that. One man has told me if the cuts go through he will loose 10k pa and will be better off on the dole. And you'll get your wish.

so someone is going to lose €10,000 per year,I find that hard to believe

Laviski · 12-05-2013 9:51pm

you can be damm sure if this was a private company we wouldn't be having this discussion. services would just be cut and people let go.

SandyfordGuy · 12-05-2013 9:53pm

considering most of the payments are only being cut from like 1.5 pay to 1.25x pay and 2.0x pay to 1.5x pay then if someone is losing 10,000 they must be coming from a pretty high starting point else the sums do not add up.

tayto lover · 12-05-2013 10:00pm

devnull wrote: »

But if the company goes bust as it is paying wages it cannot afford then they will be on the dole.

BE was never intended to make a profit and has always been subsidised.

This is just a continuation of what the Govt are trying to do to the nurses, garda, firemen etc and anyone who works shifts inc Sat and Sun in the Public Sector.
If they get away with this and the trend continues it will spread to the Private Sector as more profits have to be made for the big guys.

If they cut wages here then the workers would be as well off on the dole but then the Govt tax take would drop and output of dole would increase.

tayto lover · 12-05-2013 10:02pm

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

considering most of the payments are only being cut from like 1.5 pay to 1.25x pay and 2.0x pay to 1.5x pay then if someone is losing 10,000 they must be coming from a pretty high starting point else the sums do not add up.

3k was the figure given of what they would lose on the papers yesterday.

the_syco · 12-05-2013 10:06pm

Laviski wrote: »

you can be damm sure if this was a private company we wouldn't be having this discussion. services would just be cut and people let go.

You can be damned sure if it were a private company any routes with low traffic would be amalgamated and any times that had low traffic would be cut off. If that meant cutting the 7 day route down to Fridays and Sundays, I could see it happening.

But it's not a private company, and BE must waste fuel and man-hours sending buses to places that may not gain that much.

devnull · 12-05-2013 10:06pm

I was just quoting the given example, if someone is losing 10k then they have to be coming down from quite high up as those cuts are only impacting non basic wages, and even the extras would only be cut by 20-30%

devnull · 12-05-2013 10:07pm

the_syco wrote: »

But it's not a private company, and BE must waste fuel and man-hours sending buses to places that may not gain that much.

But that is why they are paid PSO subsidy and have state paid for vehicles on such routes.

Bus Eireann strike - services have resumed (Read first post)

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