Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Opening/Closing of Chesterfield Avenue in the Phoenix Park

Options
2»

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    zipzoc wrote: »
    Hello. Wondering if there's a more recent thread on this somewhere? The OPW has again decided to close a portion of Chesterfield Avenue each weekend for the summer even though that area remains unused by pedestrians and cyclists each time I pass by. In my opinion it's a complete waste of time and a total inconvenience to drivers who use Chesterfield Avenue daily, especially people who live in Castleknock/Blanchardstown. If they're going to do this they should at least open the road on the other side of the park (Corkscrew Road) to allow easy access to the south side. After all these years, I think it's quite inconsiderate to close that part to traffic without any consultation with the public.

    I'm not a fan of it either but to be fair, there was a public consultation process so we had our chance to object. When it ended last season they had big signs up with an email address or something to give your opinons etc.


  • Options
    #33
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    zipzoc wrote: »
    The OPW has again decided to close a portion of Chesterfield Avenue each weekend for the summer even though that area remains unused by pedestrians and cyclists each time I pass by.

    Really?? Because when they closed the road last year I literally saw hundreds of pedestrians, skateboarders, roller skaters and cyclists using the road when I cycled up on a Sunday.

    IMO Chesterfield Avenue should be completely closed off to private traffic 24/7. The road should only be used by cyclists and Dublin Bus to offer D15 residents an express service to the city centre.


  • Options
    #34
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    BenShermin wrote: »
    IMO Chesterfield Avenue should be completely closed off to private traffic 24/7. The road should only be used by cyclists and Dublin Bus to offer D15 residents an express service to the city centre.

    In an ideal world maybe but the standard of public transport for D15 at the moment isn't good enough to support something like this and closing the park couldn't be done until acceptable public transport is put in place. And unfortunately due to losses and increasing costs, Dublin Bus have been reducing routes and in my part of D15, there are now less direct routes into the city than there were before the 'Network Direct' or whatever that programme was called came into effect.

    So the chances of them being able to now offer express routes (and there'll have to be a good few routes as D15 is a fairly big area) are slim to none. And the gate at Castleknock is quite tight too so a double decker bus might have trouble squeezing through and I don't think we should go around changing the aesthetics of the entrances park for something like this anyway.


  • Options
    #35
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    I'm afraid you're not looking at the bigger picture here. The reason why bus services in D15 are so bad is because they spend ridiculous amounts of time stuck in traffic on the Navan Road. If buses had access to a car-free Chesterfield Avenue then the journey times would automatically become quicker and therefore frequencies could improve, even with DBs limited resources after Network Direct.

    Widening a gate would be a small price to pay for a car free/carbon free park.


  • Options
    #36
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    If DB had electric buses acquired for a Phoenix Park service would ABP be okay with it then?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    Con Logue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 277 ✭✭Con Logue


    jack presley wrote: »
    In an ideal world maybe but the standard of public transport for D15 at the moment isn't good enough to support something like this and closing the park couldn't be done until acceptable public transport is put in place. And unfortunately due to losses and increasing costs, Dublin Bus have been reducing routes and in my part of D15, there are now less direct routes into the city than there were before the 'Network Direct' or whatever that programme was called came into effect.

    So the chances of them being able to now offer express routes (and there'll have to be a good few routes as D15 is a fairly big area) are slim to none. And the gate at Castleknock is quite tight too so a double decker bus might have trouble squeezing through and I don't think we should go around changing the aesthetics of the entrances park for something like this anyway.

    Well we do have plenty of form as a country to say "feck the aesthetics" for the benefit of through traffic. Who is to say that it won't happen again?

    highstaerialtr5.jpg


  • Options
    #38
    TheDB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭TheDB


    jack presley wrote: »
    In an ideal world maybe but the standard of public transport for D15 at the moment isn't good enough to support something like this and closing the park couldn't be done until acceptable public transport is put in place. And unfortunately due to losses and increasing costs, Dublin Bus have been reducing routes and in my part of D15, there are now less direct routes into the city than there were before the 'Network Direct' or whatever that programme was called came into effect.

    So the chances of them being able to now offer express routes (and there'll have to be a good few routes as D15 is a fairly big area) are slim to none. And the gate at Castleknock is quite tight too so a double decker bus might have trouble squeezing through and I don't think we should go around changing the aesthetics of the entrances park for something like this anyway.

    I don't really think your points make any sense. Express bus through the park would increase passenger uptake of public transport in Dublin 15. You talk about aesthetics - 10 million car journeys are made through the park, it is being used primarily as a commuter run and people are being bullied away from using the amenity as it should be used. There is ample room for buses through the Castleknock gate:

    http://maps.google.ie/maps?rlz=1C2CHMG_en-USIE291&q=natural%20stone%20paving&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46751780,d.ZGU&biw=1024&bih=649&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl

    They made serious proposals on this about 5 - 6 years ago. I went to a residents meeting on this issue organised by Fianna Fail, with Brian Lenihan in attendance. The residents of Castleknock did not want buses through the park because they believed commuters would then park around the estates of Castleknock clogging up their streets.


  • Options
    #39
    Con Logue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 277 ✭✭Con Logue


    TheDB wrote: »
    I don't really think your points make any sense. Express bus through the park would increase passenger uptake of public transport in Dublin 15. You talk about aesthetics - 10 million car journeys are made through the park, it is being used primarily as a commuter run and people are being bullied away from using the amenity as it should be used. There is ample room for buses through the Castleknock gate:

    http://maps.google.ie/maps?rlz=1C2CHMG_en-USIE291&q=natural%20stone%20paving&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46751780,d.ZGU&biw=1024&bih=649&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl

    They made serious proposals on this about 5 - 6 years ago. I went to a residents meeting on this issue organised by Fianna Fail, with Brian Lenihan in attendance. The residents of Castleknock did not want buses through the park because they believed commuters would then park around the estates of Castleknock clogging up their streets.

    I don't think going to a Fianna Fáil meeting in the expectation of anything happening makes sense either, but YMMV.

    Seeing as Chesterfield Avenue near the Wellington Monument gets pretty severely congested town bound I imagine levels of car use will discourage new users from coming through. If the Navan Road is too congested for buses to use effectively then it is a pretty damning indictment of the whole "QBC" model as well. Priorities for buses at junctions need to be attended to if there is a chance of that working.

    There are also reasonable frequencies on the Maynooth/M3 line at peak and I am sure there is spare capacity at Navan Road Parkway for it to be used for Park and Ride.

    All of these options should be exhausted before the park is used for buses. I'm not confident it would work given how congested it gets between the park and Myos so any advantage of running buses only through Chesterfield Avenue could easily be lost, and I personally do not believe that sacrificing the gates at Castleknock is worth it for that.


  • Options
    #40
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    TheDB wrote: »
    I don't really think your points make any sense. Express bus through the park would increase passenger uptake of public transport in Dublin 15. You talk about aesthetics - 10 million car journeys are made through the park, it is being used primarily as a commuter run and people are being bullied away from using the amenity as it should be used. There is ample room for buses through the Castleknock gate:

    http://maps.google.ie/maps?rlz=1C2CHMG_en-USIE291&q=natural%20stone%20paving&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46751780,d.ZGU&biw=1024&bih=649&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl

    They made serious proposals on this about 5 - 6 years ago. I went to a residents meeting on this issue organised by Fianna Fail, with Brian Lenihan in attendance. The residents of Castleknock did not want buses through the park because they believed commuters would then park around the estates of Castleknock clogging up their streets.

    My points might not make any sense but I was responding to a post that stated "Chesterfield Avenue should be completely closed off to private traffic 24/7" and I live in the real world where I know where implementing such a move is never going to happen. There are too many obstacles, not even including Dublin Bus.

    Regarding Castleknock Gate, I said it would be a "tight squeeze for a double decker bus" (not that it wouldn't fit), you say there's "ample room", I think you should take another look!


  • Options
    #41
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    jack presley wrote: »
    My points might not make any sense but I was responding to a post that stated "Chesterfield Avenue should be completely closed off to private traffic 24/7" and I live in the real world where I know where implementing such a move is never going to happen. There are too many obstacles, not even including Dublin Bus.

    The same "real world" that saw Grafton Street pedestrianised??

    If the powers that be in the Phoenix Park are closing off Chesterfield Avenue for the second Summer running then that just shows the success of the idea. The traffic management plans work well during the weekend closures and there's no reason why they wouldn't work well on weekdays either. The automatic improvements to bus services in D.15 would in turn mean less cars to manage anyway.

    And yes, despite my horrible doze of idealism, I do live the the real world modern Dublin today. A Dublin of rising petrol prices, where Luas BXD is on the way, where the amount of Dublin Bikes will be tripled and the amount of stations almost doubled and where it will be soon possible to cycle from Adamstown to IFSC completely separate from motor traffic. Slowly but surely the tide is turning away from the private car in Dublin.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    BenShermin wrote: »
    Slowly but surely the tide is turning away from the private car in Dublin.

    Slowly, very slowly. Come back to me when it gets to second gear.


  • Options
    #43
    daymobrew
    Registered Users Posts: 6,494 ✭✭✭daymobrew


    jack presley wrote: »
    Regarding Castleknock Gate, I said it would be a "tight squeeze for a double decker bus" (not that it wouldn't fit), you say there's "ample room", I think you should take another look!
    I think that one of the plans was for buses to enter at Ashtown Gate and go along North Road (one with the speed ramps) until the last roundabout at Wellington Monument.


  • Options
    #44
    HydeRoad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭HydeRoad


    I would be very pro buses for Dublin, and I firmly believe Phoenix Park is NOT the place for buses. It is a public park, a public amenity, and should not have buses or cars, other than the tour buses which use it at present, and some form of limited car access for park use only. Not as a through route.

    The fact is that the Navan Road QBC is badly designed rubbish, just like every other QBC in Dublin. You have to realise that these QBCs were designed to look good, to sell well, but NOT to have too drastic an impact on revenue earning car usage. There were a number of cases where well designed QBC junctions on other roads were tampered with, purely because the priority balance between car and bus favoured the bus too much. The Chapelizod bypass / SCR Road junction a case in point, where the bus lane was nobbled crossing the junction, where there was ample space to run the QBC straight through as originally designed.

    A fully functioning and overly successful QBC on Navan Road is not wanted. A partial QBC, as presently stands, is what is wanted, so that car usage is not overly impacted. The buses move well in places, but are grossly held up in other places, needlessly so, and the overall journey time is far more than it could be if a different agenda was there.

    I would happily design a well functioning QBC for the Navan Road, that would work far more efficiently and safely than the rubbish that is there at present. And there would be no need for buses to go through the park at all. But that sort of foresight and ingenuity is simply not wanted. We would rather have the problem, thanks, not the solution.


  • Options
    #45
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    HydeRoad wrote: »
    I would be very pro buses for Dublin, and I firmly believe Phoenix Park is NOT the place for buses. It is a public park, a public amenity, and should not have buses or cars, other than the tour buses which use it at present, and some form of limited car access for park use only. Not as a through route.

    The fact is that the Navan Road QBC is badly designed rubbish, just like every other QBC in Dublin. You have to realise that these QBCs were designed to look good, to sell well, but NOT to have too drastic an impact on revenue earning car usage. There were a number of cases where well designed QBC junctions on other roads were tampered with, purely because the priority balance between car and bus favoured the bus too much. The Chapelizod bypass / SCR Road junction a case in point, where the bus lane was nobbled crossing the junction, where there was ample space to run the QBC straight through as originally designed.

    A fully functioning and overly successful QBC on Navan Road is not wanted. A partial QBC, as presently stands, is what is wanted, so that car usage is not overly impacted. The buses move well in places, but are grossly held up in other places, needlessly so, and the overall journey time is far more than it could be if a different agenda was there.

    I would happily design a well functioning QBC for the Navan Road, that would work far more efficiently and safely than the rubbish that is there at present. And there would be no need for buses to go through the park at all. But that sort of foresight and ingenuity is simply not wanted. We would rather have the problem, thanks, not the solution.
    An excellent post. +1 to everything there. Especially if there's an acceptable way to accommodate cars parked outside people's houses in the vicinity of the church and Garda station.


  • Options
    #46
    daymobrew
    Registered Users Posts: 6,494 ✭✭✭daymobrew


    HydeRoad wrote: »
    I would happily design a well functioning QBC for the Navan Road, that would work far more efficiently and safely than the rubbish that is there at present.
    Can you please describe what changes you would make to the Navan Road QBC?


  • Options
    #47
    HydeRoad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭HydeRoad


    daymobrew wrote: »
    Can you please describe what changes you would make to the Navan Road QBC?

    I am not being facetious or glib when I say no, that is not possible. How could I sum up the needs of a properly designed QBC in one short forum post? There are so many considerations, to every class of road user, and the QBC is simply one part of what should be a complete design package for a road, to include pedestrians, buses, bicycles, cars, lorries, junctions, parking, servicing and emergency services, an enormous task.

    The fact is that almost Dublin's entire road infrastructure is lazily and inadequately considered. For the most part, it encompasses footpaths and kerb lines that were laid down a hundred years or more ago, with arbitrary white and yellow road markings that roughly divide an existing road space in two, regardless of lane widths, traffic control, efficient and safe traffic flow, leaving a general free for all, and leaving it up to everyone to decide themselves how many lanes there are, or who has priority.

    This is all complicated further by a forest of dirty silver poles, with all manner of ugly and ill-considered signage and light signals, that contribute nothing to the environment, are often an obstruction themselves, and are rarely part of a cohesive and readily readable traffic management system.

    I am afraid it would take a lot more than a forum post to suggest the changes necessary. It would take a volume of books to do so. But it's not that it cannot be changed for the better. It is that it is not wanted to be changed, at all.


  • Options
    #48
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Any QBC on the Navan Road would be too compromised without large amounts of land take.

    Buses only on North Road in the park is a good comperise.


  • Options
    #49
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Tour buses are hardly unobtrusive. Maybe the park should have a dedicated internal transportation system using electric vehicles with tour buses etc. obliged to pickup/dropoff near the entrances to the park.


  • Options
    #50
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Tour buses are hardly unobtrusive. Maybe the park should have a dedicated internal transportation system using electric vehicles with tour buses etc. obliged to pickup/dropoff near the entrances to the park.

    Sorry if my sarcasm radar is off and you're making a comment on that exact plan that was put in place a couple of years ago but only lasted a few months as only about 4 people a day used the buses.


  • Options
    #51
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    monument wrote: »
    Any QBC on the Navan Road would be too compromised without large amounts of land take.

    Yeah, there's only enough room for 3 lanes at most so unless you have one of those lanes that change direction depending on the time of the day, you're always going to be stuck with a bus land in one direction only. And as we in Ireland don't obey bus lanes, stop in yellow boxes etc., I can't see one of those reversible lanes being a success


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    jack presley wrote: »
    Sorry if my sarcasm radar is off and you're making a comment on that exact plan that was put in place a couple of years ago but only lasted a few months as only about 4 people a day used the buses.
    Ah. Feck.


Advertisement