Season 4 Episode 2 "The Lion and the Rose" : HAVE read the books

FunLover18 · 15-04-2014 11:43am

ibarelycare wrote: »

I didn't think so. When the dwarfs came out during the wedding they showed him laughing, and then he looked sideways towards Tyrion and saw his face and stopped laughing. That showed that he's kind at least.

He's a lot older than the character in the books though.

Oh, I must have missed that. I'll look out for it on the rewatch, that's a nice touch.

The age thing will be interesting because he is clearly too old to have that childish innocence of book Tommen. I can't see TV Tommen being obsessed with kittens

CptMackey · 15-04-2014 12:10pm

Holy Hand Grenade wrote: »

I was not expecting that they would explicitly (yet subtly) show Olenna taking the poison from Sansa's necklace in the show. A nice plus for the readers.

Completely missed that last night. Don't know how tho. A rewatch is in order. Looking forward to the Shae and twyin when tyrion gets loose.

Brans vision was class and hopefully will mean that his bits will be shorter than the books

Kunkka · 15-04-2014 12:13pm

Blay wrote: »

It's fine for declared book readers to post in them, it's not them you need to be worried about, it's people claiming to be show only and 'speculating'.

Banning readers from those threads won't stop that.

I don't think people would buy a 7/8yo kid marrying Margaery. They're trying to tone down some of the things show watchers would find unbelieveable..like this, Daario's beard etc.

I agree with this. I've noticed a few book readers lending assistance to clarify a few things which is totally fine in my view, it's actually helpful.

Scanning through that though there are one or two right on the money... how could anyone really make the Littlefinger connection without reading the books or doing some research with a quick google. It just doesn't make sense to me but it's not our job to look out for stuff like this as speculation isn't believed by the other posters as they are all throwing out an opinion. It's when something completely unforeseen is thrown out that we should make mods aware of it. Like a certain incident with a crossbow.

username123 · 15-04-2014 12:29pm

Blay wrote: »

I don't think people would buy a 7/8yo kid marrying Margaery. They're trying to tone down some of the things show watchers would find unbelieveable..like this, Daario's beard etc.

Yeah, but some of the things that happen with Margery and Tommen are only believable because he is so young. I dont know how thats going to work out on screen.

connemara man · 15-04-2014 12:34pm

username123 wrote: »

Yeah, but some of the things that happen with Margery and Tommen are only believable because he is so young. I dont know how thats going to work out on screen.

I think it'll just be a case of pretty older woman takws a young impressionable young lad under het wing a bit. They've shown she's very smart even how she was able to get Joffrey on side at times.

Re the other thread I do like some of the theories though. Mad craic altogether

Falthyron · 15-04-2014 12:38pm

Hey everybody,

I have not read the books (although I am hoping to in the not too distant future!), but I am aware of the

Littlefinger

plot. I must have seen his name mentioned in the context of the Purple Wedding somewhere online. However, I am curious about his reasons. Whereas some people seem to suggest he does it to create anarchy in King's Landing with the hope of he, himself, becoming more powerful, my thoughts are drawn towards revenge. The wise book readers here would be able to clarify this for me. My theory leans toward

Littlefinger exacting revenge on the Lannisters for killing the woman he loved: Catelyn Stark.

Is this the case or more likely the case?

Thanks!

Mickeroo · 15-04-2014 12:42pm

I haven't read anything in the other thread that seemed like it was being posted disingenuously. The sign posts are all there regarding the poisoning, I don't think it's surprising that some folks have figured it out for the most part. Now if someone said something like Jon becoming Lord Commander or Stannis will go to the wall then I'd be suspicious.

GerB40 · 15-04-2014 12:42pm

Falthyron wrote: »

Hey everybody,

I have not read the books (although I am hoping to in the not too distant future!), but I am aware of the
Littlefinger
plot. I must have seen his name mentioned in the context of the Purple Wedding somewhere online. However, I am curious about his reasons. Whereas some people seem to suggest he does it to create anarchy in King's Landing with the hope of he, himself, becoming more powerful, my thoughts are drawn towards revenge. The wise book readers here would be able to clarify this for me. My theory leans toward
Littlefinger exacting revenge on the Lannisters for killing the woman he loved: Catelyn Stark.
Is this the case or more likely the case?

Thanks!

Be careful what you ask for bud. The whole tv show will be ruined for you if you dig too deep on these threads..

Paddy Cow · 15-04-2014 12:44pm

username123 wrote: »

Yeah, but some of the things that happen with Margery and Tommen are only believable because he is so young. I dont know how thats going to work out on screen.

It will be fine. They recast the kid who played Tommen for an older actor so they've thought this through. All of the kids so far in GoT have been older than in the books and it has worked out for the best. Their ages in the books either made me uncomfortable or I couldn't take them seriously. Dani was 13 when Drogo married her and got her pregnant. Rob and John were King in the North and Commander of the Night's Watch at 14/15. Arya was 10/11 when she was murdering people. Bran was 6 and Rickon 4. If they had cast actors of those actual ages, people would've turned off.

Natalie Dormer is 32 and the new Tommen is 15. Margaery will be able to manipulate him easier than a puppet, which is the aim of the Tyrells.

Mickeroo · 15-04-2014 12:47pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

It will be fine. They recast the kid who played Tommen for an older actor so they've thought this through. All of the kids so far in GoT have been older than in the books and it has worked out for the best. Their ages in the books either made me uncomfortable or I couldn't take them seriously. Dani was 13 when Drogo married her and got her pregnant. Rob and John were King in the North and Commander of the Night's Watch at 14/15. Arya was 10/11 when she was murdering people. Bran was 6 and Rickon 4. If they had cast actors of those actual ages, people would've turned off.

Natalie Dormer is 32 and the new Tommen is 15. Margaery will be able to manipulate him easier than a puppet, which is the aim of the Tyrells.

Margery is a lot more fleshed out in the show too, she's barely in the books and we have no clue of her real motives where as in the show she's given the same treatment as a POV character.

Witcher · 15-04-2014 12:56pm

username123 wrote: »

Yeah, but some of the things that happen with Margery and Tommen are only believable because he is so young. I dont know how thats going to work out on screen.

They can just turn it into her manipulating him with her looks or something. If you were his age and a woman like Natalie Dormer told you what to do you'd do it:pac:

username123 · 15-04-2014 1:03pm

Blay wrote: »

They can just turn it into her manipulating him with her looks or something. If you were his age and a woman like Natalie Dormer told you what to do you'd do it:pac:

Im more thinking along the lines of him being past puberty tbh, wont he want to ride his new queen silly at his age? And wont he be capable of it too whereas in the books he was just a child.

Witcher · 15-04-2014 1:09pm

username123 wrote: »

Im more thinking along the lines of him being past puberty tbh, wont he want to ride his new queen silly at his age? And wont he be capable of it too whereas in the books he was just a child.

They can just say he's a minor and can't consumate it yet.

username123 · 15-04-2014 1:44pm

This site details how it all happened including screen grabs showing the missing stone from the necklace etc...

http://screenrant.com/game-of-thrones-season-4-purple-wedding-spoilers-oleanna/

Hyzepher · 15-04-2014 3:20pm

Why would they need to hide the poison in the necklace. It's not as if they are ever going to search Oleanna

I'm not even sure that a stone is missing

longhalloween · 15-04-2014 3:24pm

Hyzepher wrote: »

Why would they need to hide the poison in the necklace. It's not as if they are ever going to search Oleanna

I'm not even sure that a stone is missing

I never really understood that in the books. There was always a chance Sansa wouldn't wear the headpiece, or the opportunity to grab the stone wouldn't present itself.

Why couldn't Olenna, or anyone for that matter, wear the poison jewellery themselves?

Or just have poison in a bottle in a hidden pocket?

nibtrix · 15-04-2014 3:26pm

longhalloween wrote: »

I never really understood that in the books. There was always a chance Sansa wouldn't wear the headpiece, or the opportunity to grab the stone wouldn't present itself.

Why couldn't Olenna, or anyone for that matter, wear the poison jewellery themselves?

Or just have poison in a bottle in a hidden pocket?

I suppose on the off chance that Sansa was caught with the poison, they didn't really care about her. She was only a means to an end (Winterfell) for the Tyrells as well...

And if it didn't work, they may have had other plans as backup.

Paddy Cow · 15-04-2014 3:28pm

Hyzepher wrote: »

Why would they need to hide the poison in the necklace. It's not as if they are ever going to search Oleanna

I'm not even sure that a stone is missing

It's a very rare poison called the strangler that only a few people know how to make. Littlefinger could get hold of it without drawing attention to himself a lot easier than Olenna could. By having Ser Dontos using Sansa as an unknowing third party, there is no direct link between Littlefinger and Olenna and therefore no pesky rumours. I'm pretty sure Littlefinger didn't tell Ser Dontos the true importance of the necklace, only that he had to get Sansa to wear it.

The stone is definitely missing. I didn't notice the first time I watched but when it was pointed out on the thread, I went back and watched it again and the top right crystal is definitely missing.

Hyzepher · 15-04-2014 3:28pm

remind me. Did the book 100% confirm that the jewellery contained the poison?

ibarelycare · 15-04-2014 3:30pm

Tom.D.BJJ · 15-04-2014 4:17pm

Hyzepher wrote: »

remind me. Did the book 100% confirm that the jewellery contained the poison?

No, and i'm glad it doesn't. I love the discussion and theories.

username123 · 15-04-2014 4:24pm

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

No, and i'm glad it doesn't. I love the discussion and theories.

The tv show is ruining some of that.

Holy Hand Grenade · 15-04-2014 4:25pm

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

No, and i'm glad it doesn't. I love the discussion and theories.

It is very likely though.. We hear about it from Lord Baelish (or Dontos, I don't remember).. there is no way to tell whether it's true or not because we can only rely on POV stories and not facts, and Littlefinger is not a reliable character, but everything he said about it made sense, like Dontos giving it to Sansa and then the stone missing from the hairnet..

Kunkka · 15-04-2014 4:29pm

username123 wrote: »

The tv show is ruining some of that.

It sure is but it's hard not to.

username123 · 15-04-2014 5:18pm

Kunkka wrote: »

It sure is but it's hard not to.

Oh yeah of course. Its the translation of doing pov chapters to screen where the viewer is all knowing (compared to the pov character).

Kunkka · 15-04-2014 5:21pm

username123 wrote: »

Oh yeah of course. Its the translation of doing pov chapters to screen where the viewer is all knowing (compared to the pov character).

I fear by the end of next season we'll have answers we were waiting on from the books being shown in the series as there is no way of avoiding it so I hope we have WOW by then....

longhalloween · 15-04-2014 5:28pm

Kunkka wrote: »

I fear by the end of next season we'll have answers we were waiting on from the books being shown in the series as there is no way of avoiding it so I hope we have WOW by then....

I dunno. There's not even a hint of a rumour about the release date of that book.

Generally there's a short window of a few months from when a release date is set to the actual release, but I wonder will they make an announcement 8 or 9 months ahead of time?

bopper · 15-04-2014 5:29pm

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

No, and i'm glad it doesn't. I love the discussion and theories.

Littlefinger does tell Sansa it was Olenna though doesn't he? I'm aware he could've been lying I'm jut not sure if I imagined that part of not!

Michael D Not Higgins · 15-04-2014 6:33pm

What's the story with the Kettleblacks? Are they going to introduce them or who is Cersei going to sleep with and accuse Margaery?

December2012 · 16-04-2014 12:18am

I wonder if the two lads from last week were Kettleblacks?

Also, did anybody else get excited when we saw Summer seeing an animal (which I initially thought to be an elk but obviously wasn't) and think yes! Coldhands!

username123 · 16-04-2014 9:17am

Kunkka wrote: »

I fear by the end of next season we'll have answers we were waiting on from the books being shown in the series as there is no way of avoiding it so I hope we have WOW by then....

Yeah, I started getting worried about this when we saw Melisandre talking to Arya in the tv show, then again when Robbs wife was stabbed to death at the RW.

Obviously now with the PW, its happening again......

Riskymove · 16-04-2014 9:34am

username123 wrote: »

The tv show is ruining some of that.

its a lot more difficult not to leave clues on tv though

in the book you just don't describe how its done and reveal it later

on tv we are looking at the wedding so its more difficult to hide

Rosy Posy · 16-04-2014 9:46am

bopper wrote: »

Littlefinger does tell Sansa it was Olenna though doesn't he? I'm aware he could've been lying I'm jut not sure if I imagined that part of not!

The whole thing confuses the hell out of me. I've been going over and over it thinking why would they bother, it makes things excessively complex. The only thing I can come up with is that Littlefinger wants to make Sansa complicit in the killing, so that she's even more dependent on him. I'm sure she wanted and prayed for Joffery's death but she's so wet she might dither or develop some kind of morality or fear of being in the hands of killers. By making her part of the plot she becomes one of the killers and it also ensures that she won't be able to side with the crown, in short it makes her utterly dependent on Littlefinger...which isn't to say that he's not lying, that could equally be the motivation for a lie.

username123 · 16-04-2014 9:57am

Rosy Posy wrote: »

The whole thing confuses the hell out of me. I've been going over and over it thinking why would they bother, it makes things excessively complex. The only thing I can come up with is that Littlefinger wants to make Sansa complicit in the killing, so that she's even more dependent on him. I'm sure she wanted and prayed for Joffery's death but she's so wet she might dither or develop some kind of morality or fear of being in the hands of killers. By making her part of the plot she becomes one of the killers and it also ensures that she won't be able to side with the crown, in short it makes her utterly dependent on Littlefinger...which isn't to say that he's not lying, that could equally be the motivation for a lie.

I think that Sansa was used as the scapegoat. If it had all gone horribly wrong they could have pointed the finger at her as the guilty party because she was the one with the poison jewel, she had reason to hate Joffrey, she was a guest at the top table with access to his cup and she has no power to save herself. She is basically the person with the least amount of power who had any involvement so she could be the fall guy if necessary.

username123 · 16-04-2014 10:00am

Riskymove wrote: »

its a lot more difficult not to leave clues on tv though

in the book you just don't describe how its done and reveal it later

on tv we are looking at the wedding so its more difficult to hide

Oh I totally agree, its what I was saying re pov character in books and all seeing viewers of the tv show.

Also, due to the differing nature of the media, youd lose viewers if things were constantly ambiguous. Same way youd lose them if you presented all the characters at the ages they are in the books (as pointed out earlier by another poster). Bringing it to tv does mean making changes, and some of those changes mean that us book readers are seeing spoilers.

I guess if GRRM had actually finished the books before the tv show was made we wouldnt be complaining!

Rosy Posy · 16-04-2014 11:01am

Sleepy wrote: »

Don't understimate all the non-book readers. There was a banning last year of someone who was just watching very closely and hadn't actually read the books yet.

Agreed! I was nearly banned last year (before I read the books) and in the process had something (kind of) spoiled for me. There's a lot in the shows if you look for it, especially if you do a rewatch in the run up rather than relying on memory from a year ago. In some ways it's better being a non book reader because you get to speculate and look for clues in the action rather than mentally comparing to the books. On the other hand it's nice not to fear the internet (spoilers everywhere) and to have the entire world of twow and ados speculation opened up!

Witcher · 16-04-2014 12:03pm

I noticed a 'non book reader' calling Yara 'Asha' despite her not being called that in the series...strange indeed.

Mickeroo · 16-04-2014 12:15pm

December2012 wrote: »

I wonder if the two lads from last week were Kettleblacks?

Also, did anybody else get excited when we saw Summer seeing an animal (which I initially thought to be an elk but obviously wasn't) and think yes! Coldhands!

I was excited at the prospect of seeing a dire wolf in itself. Probably wont see one again until next season now.

Michael D Not Higgins · 16-04-2014 12:18pm

Blay wrote: »

I noticed a 'non book reader' calling Yara 'Asha' despite her not being called that in the series...strange indeed.

Possible he forgot the name and googled 'Theon's sister'. Still suspicious though.

Mousewar · 16-04-2014 12:42pm

I'm starting to regret reading the books. Haven't enjoyed the TV series as much since doing so.

Can someone clear something up for me. I keep getting confused - is it against the rules for a Kingsguard to marry either in the books or the series or in both? I thought it was but then how could Loras be supposed to marry Cersei? He is in the Kingsguard in the TV series, isn't he?

Witcher · 16-04-2014 12:43pm

Mousewar wrote: »

I'm starting to regret reading the books. Haven't enjoyed the TV series as much since doing so.

Can someone clear something up for me. I keep getting confused - is it against the rules for a Kingsguard to marry either in the books or the series or in both? I thought it was but then how could Loras be supposed to marry Cersei? He is in the Kingsguard in the TV series, isn't he?

KG can't marry in either. Loras isn't KG in the show, he 's the heir to Highgarden in it.

Mousewar · 16-04-2014 12:46pm

Blay wrote: »

KG can't marry in either. Loras isn't KG in the show, he 's the heir to Highgarden in it.

Thanks. Was he not meant to marry her in the books as well?

Witcher · 16-04-2014 12:48pm

Mousewar wrote: »

Thanks. Was he not meant to marry her in the books as well?

It was Garlan or Willas in the books but the plans weren't that far along, was all supposed to be finalised after Joffrey's wedding but we know how that went down.

Paddy Cow · 16-04-2014 1:48pm

Mousewar wrote: »

I'm starting to regret reading the books. Haven't enjoyed the TV series as much since doing so.

Can someone clear something up for me. I keep getting confused - is it against the rules for a Kingsguard to marry either in the books or the series or in both? I thought it was but then how could Loras be supposed to marry Cersei? He is in the Kingsguard in the TV series, isn't he?

The Kingsguard can't marry. In the books, Sansa was supposed to marry another Tyrell but the Lannisters found out and put a stop to it.

In the show it was easier for them to have the Tyrell's try to marry Sansa to Loras. People were already familiar with Loras and since the wedding plans got suppered anyways, it would've been redundant to introduce a new character and possible confuse the issue. Since the outcome is the same, Loras served the purpose.

You might have got confused with Loras being in the Kingsguard in the show because when Tywin found out about the Tyrell's plan, he decided to marry Tyrion to Sansa and Cersei to Loras. When Olenna objected to Loras marrying Cersei, Tywin said that either Loras marry Cersei or he would end up in the Kingsguard and the Tyrells would lose their male heir. Here is the conversation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-I4O2UdTGQ

turnikett1 · 16-04-2014 1:50pm

I have read the books, I most recently read the 5th one about 4 months ago but it's been AGES since I read the 3rd one. So, uh... who did poison Joffrey again? Is it ever even revealed in the books?

Paddy Cow · 16-04-2014 1:51pm

Blay wrote: »

I noticed a 'non book reader' calling Yara 'Asha' despite her not being called that in the series...strange indeed.

If the poster was making an innocuous post then it's fine. If they were pretending to be a non book reader making a speculation, then that's out of line. The odd time I'll make a post in the non readers thread but I tend to avoid it just in case I make a bannable mistake. I love posting in this forum and don't want to be locked out!

username123 · 16-04-2014 1:54pm

Was Loras in Renlys KingsGuard? Or just in Renly

Witcher · 16-04-2014 1:55pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

If the poster was making an innocuous post then it's fine. If they were pretending to be a non book reader making a speculation, then that's out of line. The odd time I'll make a post in the non readers thread but I tend to avoid it just in case I make a bannable mistake. I love posting in this forum and don't want to be locked out!

I know, I do the same but if you read through his previous posts..he's never posted in a readers thread and has asked questions in the other thread that he would know if he's able to name her as Asha instead of Yara.

Very suspicious imo.

Riskymove · 16-04-2014 2:11pm

username123 wrote: »

Was Loras in Renlys KingsGuard? Or just in Renly

both

but given that Renly wasn't actually crowned king it wasn't the real KG

Also Starring LeVar Burton · 16-04-2014 2:16pm

If you suspect someone posting in another thread to be in breach of the charter or causing trouble of some sort do the following...

1) Report the post
2) Sit back and let the moderators deal with it

Here's what not to do:

1) Start your own witch hunt

Give it a rest, it's Backseat Moderation, Off-Topic and you'll end up getting yourself into trouble

Season 4 Episode 2 "The Lion and the Rose" : *HAVE* read the books

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Season 4 Episode 2 "The Lion and the Rose" : HAVE read the books