New Luas lines or extensions after BXD

smellmepower · 04-06-2014 8:22pm

Interesting video about LUAS security and their control room.Not threadworthy so not sure where else to put it, apologies if this is the wrong place.

syklops · 05-06-2014 12:36am

Light rail works best (in fact any form of public transport does) when there is an anchor at both ends. The city centre is an obvious anchor, but the outer ends of our current light rail lines work well as anchors too: Sandyford Industrial estate and Tallaght/Citywest. Of course, this isn't always necessary but it's good for avoiding empty trams going outbound in the morning and inbound in the evening.

Wholeheartedly agree about about having an anchor both ends. Spurs that go off to seemingly nowhere are a poor investment. I type this as I lookout the window at the Cherrywood luas stop, with its cows in the field next to it.

The Cherrywood/Brides Glen extension was poorly timed because a lot of the infrastructure it was to be supporting didnt get finished as a result of the downturn, and thats why I can see cows and not a Pizza Hut.

A connection to either Dun Laoighre or Bray is really needed because it would connect this spur with the rest of the light rail network. It would mean that to get from here to Connolly station or even Heuston, it would be Cherrywood -> Dunlaoighre/Bray, Dart to Connolly, Luas to Heuston. It would be a bit long-winded but it would be an integrated rail network and at peak times may well be the quickest, cost effective way of getting where I might need to go.

Started writing this posr 3 hours ago so sorry if its a bit disjointed.

donvito99 · 05-06-2014 1:52am

syklops wrote: »

Started writing this posr 3 hours ago so sorry if its a bit disjointed.

Did you fall asleep?

petronius · 05-06-2014 7:09am

I agree with the anchor at both ends
the anchor can be a hub bus station dart station airport population centre
while broombridge is on the north-western commuter rail line, itself I fear is not the optimum anchor that it could have and continuing on going to a high population area like Finglas I think should be reconsidered

I agree a DL link to the cherrywood line is nice in concept but a route i think is difficult and the proposed link to the bray line is more straightforward

D.L.R. · 05-06-2014 8:48am

loyatemu wrote: »

Cherrywood - Dun Laoghaire would seem a better bet than Cherrywood - Bray. You could certainly fit a tram line along Wyattville Road, its the rest of the way into DL that could be tricky.

I'd love an E-W suburban connection for DL.

But I'd route it from DL or Blackrock to Sandyford/Dundrum area. Tough to find an alignment mind!

AngryLips · 05-06-2014 8:53am

D.L.R. wrote: »

I'd love an E-W suburban connection for DL.

But I'd route it from DL or Blackrock to Sandyford/Dundrum area. Tough to find an alignment mind!

Close off a few roads ...simples

Sam Russell · 05-06-2014 9:44am

There is an alignment from Booterstown up through St Helens and onto UCD. Not sure where you go after that.

LXFlyer · 05-06-2014 9:57am

AngryLips wrote: »

Close off a few roads ...simples

Given every single road in that area has houses built along them I think that suggestion might not happen.

AngryLips · 05-06-2014 10:27am

lxflyer wrote: »

Given every single road in that area has houses built along them I think that suggestion might not happen.

CPO some front lawns, enough for a two way luas line and one car lane for one way traffic.

LXFlyer · 05-06-2014 11:43am

AngryLips wrote: »

CPO some front lawns, enough for a two way luas line and one car lane for one way traffic.

While I'm all in favour of developing public transport, that simply is a nonsense - it's not going to happen.
You need to be realistic about this.

AngryLips · 05-06-2014 1:10pm

Well you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs

LXFlyer · 05-06-2014 1:13pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Well you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs

Well point out an exact route to me that can be done without costing millions in CPO and I'll believe you.

None of the LUAS routes to date have even come close to that amount of CPO of peoples' houses/gardens that your idea would require.

D.L.R. · 05-06-2014 1:38pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is an alignment from Booterstown up through St Helens and onto UCD. Not sure where you go after that.

Yes thats for the mooted Eastern Bypass motorway. It continues south to Sandyford.

God forbid we sholud have any preserved public transport corridors in this city!

AngryLips · 05-06-2014 2:13pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well point out an exact route to me that can be done without costing millions in CPO and I'll believe you.

None of the LUAS routes to date have even come close to that amount of CPO of peoples' houses/gardens that your idea would require.

http://i.imgur.com/Ia1pjZG.jpg

LXFlyer · 05-06-2014 4:15pm

AngryLips wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/Ia1pjZG.jpg

Now I know you're not being serious.

That goes through Deansgrange Cemetery and through housing estates. Not exactly a realistic suggestion.

Anyone can draw a line with red pen, but coming up with a workable solution is another thing altogether.

petronius · 05-06-2014 4:39pm

Well any thoughts on putting a luas line joining the red line through the phoenix park and onto blanchardstown serving castleknock (i know there is a ban on public transport in it but...)

Victor · 06-06-2014 4:07pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Did you fall asleep?

On-topic constructive posts only please.

Moderator

Carawaystick · 09-06-2014 12:28pm

petronius wrote: »

Well any thoughts on putting a luas line joining the red line through the phoenix park and onto blanchardstown serving castleknock (i know there is a ban on public transport in it but...)

Castleknock is already served by heavy rail.

KungPao · 17-09-2014 3:56pm

Fanciful thinking probably, but I'd like the RED line to continue from the Square to Tallaght Village - Old Bawn - Firhouse - Scholartown - Ballboden - and meet up with the GREEN line in the general Dundrum Area.

No rail in that area and terrible buses (looking at you number 75), would be very convenient and would surely be a money maker - a lot of people in those areas.

LXFlyer · 17-09-2014 4:06pm

KungPao wrote: »

Fanciful thinking probably, but I'd like the RED line to continue from the Square to Tallaght Village - Old Bawn - Firhouse - Scholartown - Ballboden - and meet up with the GREEN line in the general Dundrum Area.

No rail in that area and terrible buses (looking at you number 75), would be very convenient and would surely be a money maker - a lot of people in those areas.

How exactly is the 75 "terrible"?

Since the timetable change in 2009 it has been extremely reliable - perhaps you can outline why that is an issue?

KungPao · 17-09-2014 4:16pm

lxflyer wrote: »

How exactly is the 75 "terrible"?

Since the timetable change in 2009 it has been extremely reliable - perhaps you can outline why that is an issue?

Well for someone who works in Leopardstown and lives in Tallaght, it is inconvenient.

Only some 75s go via Sandyford, So I was **** out of luck sometimes, and had to walk from Sandyford LUAS area to Kilmacud and vice versa. Then it's always jammed and took an age to reach Tallaght.

Maybe it's decent for trips to Dun Laoghaire from Dundrum, but not for me as a commuter going to Tallaght.

And I've had some shocking waits for it and no-shows too.

LXFlyer · 17-09-2014 4:40pm

KungPao wrote: »

Well for someone who works in Leopardstown and lives in Tallaght, it is inconvenient.

Only some 75s go via Sandyford, So I was **** out of luck sometimes, and had to walk from Sandyford LUAS area to Kilmacud and vice versa. Then it's always jammed and took an age to reach Tallaght.

Maybe it's decent for trips to Dun Laoghaire from Dundrum, but not for me as a commuter going to Tallaght.

And I've had some shocking waits for it and no-shows too.

The question is though - how many people are making that exact trip? Four early morning eastbound 75s go via Sandyford, while three westbound buses divert in the evening. That's probably enough to cover the majority of people.

Should everyone who is travelling between points before Stillorgan and after Kilmacud (which would be the majority) have their journeys unnecessarily lengthened just to suit you?

The fact that buses are reasonably full does not make it "terrible" - it just shows that it's popular at peak times. It takes the route it does as to make he route viable it needs to serve major traffic generators, e.g. Shopping centres. It also serves the Ballinteer area from which it sources much of its traffic.

Waiting for buses can be reasonably eliminated by using the Dublin Bus app to check where the bus is, and I would suggest taking the LUAS to Dundrum and picking up the 75 there might be a shorter walk than walking to Kilmacud should you miss the evening services via Sandyford Industrial Estate.

Pete_Cavan · 17-09-2014 4:43pm

I have always thought that extending the Red Line to Clontarf Road DART station via the Port and Eastpoint Business Park could get good passenger numbers for very little cost. There is a huge number of people employed in Eastpoint and the transport options are limited. Some of the companies there put on buses for staff, they could be asked to provide some of the funds for the extension. Dublin Port are targeting more cruise ships and having a tram beside you to take you to the city centre when you step off the ship would make Dublin a more attractive location. You also have the 3Arena and Point Village as a trip generators. The whole Clontarf/Fairview/Marino area may even use it to get into town rather than buses. Providing another link on the network also makes public transport more attractive generally.

I assume most of the land behind the Gibson is state owned (probably CIE?), as is land on the other side at the port, then the most difficult thing would be going through Eastpoint. Crossing the Tolka would be straightforward and then there is open park land to the station, terminating in the siding on the southern side of the station.

KungPao · 17-09-2014 4:57pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The question is though - how many people are making that exact trip? Four early morning eastbound 75s go via Sandyford, while three westbound buses divert in the evening. That's probably enough to cover the majority of people.

Should everyone who is travelling between points before Stillorgan and after Kilmacud (which would be the majority) have their journeys unnecessarily lengthened just to suit you?

The fact that buses are reasonably full does not make it "terrible" - it just shows that it's popular at peak times. It takes the route it does as to make he route viable it needs to serve major traffic generators, e.g. Shopping centres. It also serves the Ballinteer area from which it sources much of its traffic.

Waiting for buses can be reasonably eliminated by using the Dublin Bus app to check where the bus is, and I would suggest taking the LUAS to Dundrum and picking up the 75 there might be a shorter walk than walking to Kilmacud should you miss the evening services via Sandyford Industrial Estate.

The bus route is full because there is feck all other option.

Stick a tram between The Square and Dundrum SC and it would be a runaway success.

I don't understand your touchiness about a bus, to be honest. And I wont discuss it with you further.

Thanks for the condescending advice by the way, what would I do with you?

LXFlyer · 17-09-2014 5:08pm

KungPao wrote: »

The bus route is full because there is feck all other option.

Stick a tram between The Square and Dundrum SC and it would be a runaway success.

I don't understand your touchiness about a bus, to be honest. And I wont discuss it with you further.

Thanks for the condescending advice by the way, what would I do with you?

I wasn't being condescending - I was actually thinking practically - the walk from Dundrum LUAS to the 75 bus stop is about 5 minutes, rather than a much longer walk from Leopardstown to Kilmacud. The amount of people who don't use the tools (such as the apps) and then complain is quite large, hence I was covering all the bases.

The reason I make the point is so many times I've read here that the 75 is unreliable, and it certainly was prior to 2009, but since then it has been very reliable and very predictable. I know because I use it most days of the week.

There frankly is not the demand for a LUAS line across south Dublin, but what would work, provided funds were available, is splitting the 75 into two routes as originally envisaged under Network Direct:

Route 75
Tallaght (The Square) » Old Bawn Road » Firhouse Road » Butterfield Avenue » Nutgrove Avenue » Churchtown Road » Dundrum » Sandyford Industrial Estate » Stillorgan Shopping Centre » Foxrock Church » Kill Avenue » Dún Laoghaire Rail Station

Route 175
Tallaght (The Square) » Old Bawn Road » Killininny Road » Scholarstown Road » Grange Road » Broadford Road >> Ballinteer Avenue » Dundrum Shopping Centre » Sandyford Industrial Estate » Stillorgan Shopping Centre » Monkstown Link Road » Monkstown Avenue » Dún Laoghaire Rail Station

KungPao · 17-09-2014 5:23pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I wasn't being condescending - I was actually thinking practically - the walk from Dundrum LUAS to the 75 bus stop is about 5 minutes, rather than a much longer walk from Leopardstown to Kilmacud. The amount of people who don't use the tools (such as the apps) and then complain is quite large, hence I was covering all the bases.

The reason I make the point is so many times I've read here that the 75 is unreliable, and it certainly was prior to 2009, but since then it has been very reliable and very predictable. I know because I use it most days of the week.

There frankly is not the demand for a LUAS line across south Dublin, but what would work, provided funds were available, is splitting the 75 into two routes as originally envisaged under Network Direct:

Route 75
Tallaght (The Square) » Old Bawn Road » Firhouse Road » Butterfield Avenue » Nutgrove Avenue » Churchtown Road » Dundrum » Sandyford Industrial Estate » Stillorgan Shopping Centre » Foxrock Church » Kill Avenue » Dún Laoghaire Rail Station

Route 175
Tallaght (The Square) » Old Bawn Road » Killininny Road » Scholarstown Road » Grange Road » Broadford Road >> Ballinteer Avenue » Dundrum Shopping Centre » Sandyford Industrial Estate » Stillorgan Shopping Centre » Monkstown Link Road » Monkstown Avenue » Dún Laoghaire Rail Station

Ok.

I have done 75 to Stillorgan LUAS/Kilmacud and walk, 75 to Dundrum and Luas to Sandyford/Central Park and more. The small time saving doesn't justify the extra cost and hassle IMO.

I disagree and do think a LUAS across the south of the city would be an earner...surely would have more demand than the Brides Glen section as it stands.

It would open up the possibilty of travelling from Tallaght (and before) on to Dundrum via Firhouse/Knocklyon and beyond (to Brides Glen/Bray if extended). It would kill off a bus route or two, but the LUAS service would be profitable IMO.

I agree with the altering of the 75. It's way too long and meandering and it's laughable how long it takes to get to the Square from Dundrum, as it is.

LXFlyer · 17-09-2014 5:34pm

KungPao wrote: »

Ok.

I have done 75 to Stillorgan LUAS/Kilmacud and walk, 75 to Dundrum and Luas to Sandyford/Central Park and more. The small time saving doesn't justify the extra cost and hassle IMO.

I disagree and do think a LUAS across the south of the city would be an earner...surely would have more demand than the Brides Glen section as it stands.

It would open up the possibilty of travelling from Tallaght (and before) on to Dundrum via Firhouse/Knocklyon and beyond (to Brides Glen/Bray if extended). It would kill off a bus route or two, but the LUAS service would be profitable IMO.

I agree with the altering of the 75. It's way too long and meandering and it's laughable how long it takes to get to the Square from Dundrum, as it is.

Well I think it would be more prudent to implement a change to the 75 into a revised 75 and a 175, before even considering any decision about investing millions into a LUAS project.

It's quite possible that the two bus routes would be more than adequate.

At the moment while funds are at a premium, coming up with ideas that are affordable are frankly more likely to see the light of day.

The reason the 75 takes the route it does is to maximise the number of backsides on seats - most trips are not all along the route, but rather to/from intermediate points. With the best will in the world no orbital public transport service is ever going to be as fast as the car, because in the first instance no two individual trips are alike (everyone has different starting and finishing points), and secondly they have to serve traffic generators along the way to be financially viable.

SteM · 18-09-2014 2:09pm

lxflyer wrote: »

There frankly is not the demand for a LUAS line across south Dublin, but what would work, provided funds were available, is splitting the 75 into two routes as originally envisaged under Network Direct:

Route 75
Tallaght (The Square) » Old Bawn Road » Firhouse Road » Butterfield Avenue » Nutgrove Avenue » Churchtown Road » Dundrum » Sandyford Industrial Estate » Stillorgan Shopping Centre » Foxrock Church » Kill Avenue » Dún Laoghaire Rail Station

Route 175
Tallaght (The Square) » Old Bawn Road » Killininny Road » Scholarstown Road » Grange Road » Broadford Road >> Ballinteer Avenue » Dundrum Shopping Centre » Sandyford Industrial Estate » Stillorgan Shopping Centre » Monkstown Link Road » Monkstown Avenue » Dún Laoghaire Rail Station

This is what was promised under ND and what should have happened. When KungPao described the 75 route as terrible I knew exactly what he meant. The route is awful and it's a chore to use from The Square to Dundrum, never mind The Square to Dun Laoghaire.

It should not be quicker to get a Dart form Dun Laoghaire to Town and then a 27 or 65 from Town to The Square than a 75 from Dun Laoghaire to The Square but it often is in my experience.

LXFlyer · 18-09-2014 4:00pm

SteM wrote: »

This is what was promised under ND and what should have happened. When KungPao described the 75 route as terrible I knew exactly what he meant. The route is awful and it's a chore to use from The Square to Dundrum, never mind The Square to Dun Laoghaire.

It should not be quicker to get a Dart form Dun Laoghaire to Town and then a 27 or 65 from Town to The Square than a 75 from Dun Laoghaire to The Square but it often is in my experience.

The problem was lack of funds to pay for it.

An orbital route has to serve major centres to generate enough backsides on seats.

You could not straighten out the 75 without providing a replacement route.

SteM · 18-09-2014 4:29pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The problem was lack of funds to pay for it.

An orbital route has to serve major centres to generate enough backsides on seats.

You could not straighten out the 75 without providing a replacement route.

I'm aware of all of this. None of it is helpful when you're a paying passenger sitting on a bus that isn't moving anywhere though.

Aard · 18-09-2014 9:41pm

Orbital routes function best when well integrated with radial routes -- including transfer points, fare integration, and timetable integration. Passenger numbers would rarely justify orbital rail services, except in the most integrated of orbital routes.

Van.Bosch · 18-09-2014 9:56pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I have always thought that extending the Red Line to Clontarf Road DART station via the Port and Eastpoint Business Park could get good passenger numbers for very little cost. There is a huge number of people employed in Eastpoint and the transport options are limited. Some of the companies there put on buses for staff, they could be asked to provide some of the funds for the extension. Dublin Port are targeting more cruise ships and having a tram beside you to take you to the city centre when you step off the ship would make Dublin a more attractive location. You also have the 3Arena and Point Village as a trip generators. The whole Clontarf/Fairview/Marino area may even use it to get into town rather than buses. Providing another link on the network also makes public transport more attractive generally.

I assume most of the land behind the Gibson is state owned (probably CIE?), as is land on the other side at the port, then the most difficult thing would be going through Eastpoint. Crossing the Tolka would be straightforward and then there is open park land to the station, terminating in the siding on the southern side of the station.

I have seen east point referenced before. I think it would work and even extending to Donnycarney church might provide a quick route to town/Houston but maybe too indirectly.

Muahahaha · 18-09-2014 10:50pm

You'd nearly have to ask why they didn't go as far as Eastpoint when they were extending it to the Point. Probably a raft of excuses why not but Harry Crosbie jumped up and down hard enough to get the extension to his venue, if that was the logic of the Point extension then there was a far better business care to run to also connect Clontarf and Eastpoint where thousands of people work every day

markpb · 18-09-2014 10:52pm

From what I remember, the extensions to Citywest and Point Village were both part-funded by developers in those areas. I guess Harry paid for the extension to his part of town but there were no developers in Eastpoint to pay for it to go further.

thisisadamh · 19-09-2014 2:55pm

What about this? Luas through Clonskegh, UCD, and Booterstown

schemingbohemia · 19-09-2014 3:10pm

thisisadamh wrote: »

What about this? Luas through Clonskegh, UCD, and Booterstown

Too short, too pointless.

Muahahaha · 20-09-2014 5:34pm

markpb wrote: »

From what I remember, the extensions to Citywest and Point Village were both part-funded by developers in those areas. I guess Harry paid for the extension to his part of town but there were no developers in Eastpoint to pay for it to go further.

Yeah I had forgotten about the developers paying for for the Luas extensions. But I suppose between Harry Crosbie and Jim Mansfield out in Citywest both coming a cropper and being bailed into NAMA the taxpayer has ended up paying for those Luas extensions one way or the other.

Naked Lepper · 22-09-2014 2:53pm

is the stephens green to abbey street luas line going to open first and then are they going to continue working on the rest of the extension or are they going to wait for the whole thing to be finished before opening?

would make sense to work on connecting up two lines as a priority before continuing on with the extension?

anyone know when the lines will be connected?

LXFlyer · 22-09-2014 4:00pm

Naked Lepper wrote: »

is the stephens green to abbey street luas line going to open first and then are they going to continue working on the rest of the extension or are they going to wait for the whole thing to be finished before opening?

would make sense to work on connecting up two lines as a priority before continuing on with the extension?

anyone know when the lines will be connected?

The line will be opened in 2017 all at once from St Stephen's Green to Broombridge. There will be no staged opening.

The lines are not going to be connected operationally, they will just cross one another.

There's full info on the construction phasing here:
http://www.luascrosscity.ie/whats-the-plan/timeline/

Muahahaha · 22-09-2014 4:26pm

When complete one track of the BXD will run up O'Connell St on the GPO side. That side of O'Connell Street has a lot of Dublin Bus stops; when the line is complete will all of them be still in situ? Also is the Luas track is going to be the left or right hand lane of O'Connell St when you are heading northbound ? If its on the left and buses are pulling onto the Luas tracks to pick up passengers how will they continue their journey, on the tracks or are the rules that they must rejoin the other lane? How will taxis be allowed to drive on tracks, eg are we going to see people flag a taxi on O'Connell St and for it to chop in front of a Luas on the tracks and hold it up till the taxi has picked up a passenger?

Idbatterim · 22-09-2014 4:32pm

I'd prefer to see Luas than BRT to the airport although I'm torn about the route - Drumcondra seems like the obvious choice but DCU would be a great trip generator and also has the advantage of introducing people to good public transport when they move to Dublin. Serving both by on-street rail would make the trip too slow though.

By the stage MN gets built, the airport will be 30,000,000 or more Id estimate. Building a luas out to it would be a joke. Also given that we are straight back into a housing crisis, they should build something that can open up land that can support high density development...

Naked Lepper · 22-09-2014 4:40pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The line will be opened in 2017 all at once from St Stephen's Green to Broombridge. There will be no staged opening.

The lines are not going to be connected operationally, they will just cross one another.

There's full info on the construction phasing here:
http://www.luascrosscity.ie/whats-the-plan/timeline/

seems a bit stupid considering the main flaw with current operations is that the two lines dont connect, and its a very short distance between stephens green and abbey street. presumably this extn could be completed fairly quickly

LXFlyer · 22-09-2014 4:42pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

When complete one track of the BXD will run up O'Connell St on the GPO side. That side of O'Connell Street has a lot of Dublin Bus stops; when the line is complete will all of them be still in situ? Also is the Luas track is going to be the left or right hand lane of O'Connell St when you are heading northbound ? If its on the left and buses are pulling onto the Luas tracks to pick up passengers how will they continue their journey, on the tracks or are the rules that they must rejoin the other lane? How will taxis be allowed to drive on tracks, eg are we going to see people flag a taxi on O'Connell St and for it to chop in front of a Luas on the tracks and hold it up till the taxi has picked up a passenger?

The detailed plans are all in the EIS.

The specific plans for O'Connell Street are here:
http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/Downloads/PlanofProposedWorks/01-ALIGNMENT_PROPERTY/06_BXD_RO_29_B-C.pdf

A full traffic plan for the city centre during the main construction phase and post-construction is being developed by the NTA I understand.

LXFlyer · 22-09-2014 4:43pm

Naked Lepper wrote: »

seems a bit stupid considering the main flaw with current operations is that the two lines dont connect, and its a very short distance between stephens green and abbey street. presumably this extn could be completed fairly quickly

The reason for the extension is not connecting the two lines, in fact they don't expect huge numbers to transfer.

It's to provide another cross-city link.

So you think it would be cheaper to have the various contractors on site twice rather than once?

TheBandicoot · 22-09-2014 4:44pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

When complete one track of the BXD will run up O'Connell St on the GPO side. That side of O'Connell Street has a lot of Dublin Bus stops; when the line is complete will all of them be still in situ? Also is the Luas track is going to be the left or right hand lane of O'Connell St when you are heading northbound ? If its on the left and buses are pulling onto the Luas tracks to pick up passengers how will they continue their journey, on the tracks or are the rules that they must rejoin the other lane? How will taxis be allowed to drive on tracks, eg are we going to see people flag a taxi on O'Connell St and for it to chop in front of a Luas on the tracks and hold it up till the taxi has picked up a passenger?

The tracks will be on the right lane of O'Connell St northbound, then after the GPO will pull into the central reservation. See. http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/Downloads/PlanofProposedWorks/01-ALIGNMENT_PROPERTY/19_BXD_P_29_B-C.pdf

Muahahaha · 22-09-2014 5:03pm

Interesting design to make it three lane going northbound past the GPO. I presume this means the end of the O'Connell St taxi rank opposite the Gresham?

New Luas lines or extensions after BXD

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