New Luas lines or extensions after BXD

Julius Seizure · 08-04-2014 9:38pm

Why can't both be done? There aren't too many space constraints along that line, something similar to the NEX running along the trackbed of the Robin Hood line between Hucknall and Northampton could be interesting. Or make it like a Belgian Premetro. I don't think blatant downgrading is a good idea

MayoSalmon · 08-04-2014 9:50pm

Either dart extension from Clongriffin or Howth Junction to Dublin Airport or extend Broombridge through Finglas to it.

Aard · 08-04-2014 11:09pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Best plan would be to convert the Maynooth line to DART. Higher capacity, considerably faster and attractive to car drivers. Oh wait..

"Oh wait" what?

Muahahaha · 09-04-2014 12:12am

Slightly OT but can anyone tell me the route of the Dart Underground ? Does it have any stops or just go direct Connolly to Hueston ?

markpb · 09-04-2014 12:24am

Banjoxed wrote: »

Best plan would be to convert the Maynooth line to DART. Higher capacity, considerably faster and attractive to car drivers. Oh wait..

Dart to Maynooth would be prohibitively expensive and, given the loadings on the line right now, isn't warranted. People look at packed trains and think Maynooth to Connolly is the next Jubilee line but it isn't - the packed trains are as much a side-effect of the infrequent service as anything else.

Anyone waiting for this project will be waiting a long time. Almost as long as they wait for their trains on a Sunday... ;-)

Edit: Dart from Malahide to Bray averages 27kph, exactly the same as Luas and slightly slower than the western suburban line.

Edit Edit: "Dart is more attractive to car drivers (than Luas)" - have you got anything to back that up? It's no faster, less frequent and passengers don't give a damn about higher capacity as long as they get on. It's also staffed by Irish Rail which, unfairly, people associate with unions and strikes.

Aard · 09-04-2014 12:30am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Slightly OT but can anyone tell me the route of the Dart Underground ? Does it have any stops or just go direct Connolly to Hueston ?

DU goes nowhere near Connolly (relatively speaking)!

The route is: (...Park West), Inchicore, Heuston, Christchurch, Stephen's Green, Pearse, Docklands, (Clontarf Road...)

Banjoxed · 09-04-2014 7:33am

markpb wrote: »

Dart to Maynooth would be prohibitively expensive and, given the loadings on the line right now, isn't warranted. People look at packed trains and think Maynooth to Connolly is the next Jubilee line but it isn't - the packed trains are as much a side-effect of the infrequent service as anything else.

Anyone waiting for this project will be waiting a long time. Almost as long as they wait for their trains on a Sunday... ;-)

Edit: Dart from Malahide to Bray averages 27kph, exactly the same as Luas and slightly slower than the western suburban line.

Edit Edit: "Dart is more attractive to car drivers (than Luas)" - have you got anything to back that up? It's no faster, less frequent and passengers don't give a damn about higher capacity as long as they get on. It's also staffed by Irish Rail which, unfairly, people associate with unions and strikes.

Interesting,

"Given the loadings of the line right now" is the same trap as presuming bus ridership is the only predictor of future rail use. Not playing that one.

And your bracketed bit (than Luas) didn't exist in my post.

You will be aware of greater line sharing and more stops on the coastal routes.

Plus the whole point of DART Underground is to reconfigure DART as Maynooth - Bray and Hazlehatch - Howth giving greater capacity, and less restrictions in the city centre. Therefore more speed. That was the point, and any structures built on the Western and South Western lines since 1981 have been built with electrification in mind.

icdg · 09-04-2014 9:06am

markpb wrote: »

Signalling upgrades are neither cheap nor simple. The removal of each level crossing cost millions, the ongoing operation of them costs hundreds of thousands per year. Finding space to terminate any extra trains from Maynooth on the Dart line or at any of it's stations is almost impossible without significant work. All this means that the chances of the Maynooth line being upgraded in it's current form in any meaningful way is close to zero.

.

Are you really telling me that automating level crossings on an existing line is more expensive than constructing a brand new railway line, on land CIE doesn't own and would need to be CPO-ed, in the Dublin suburbs, with no existing reservation? And that's only a prelude to the removal of an existing railway line and the demolition of the existing stations to be replaced from scratch with a tram line? Presumably in this scenario you'd need to replace all the level crossings with traffic lights anyway?

And meanwhile what about commuters in Maynooth whose rail service would be reduced from 40 trains a day in each direction to 9, based on current service patterns? The students in the university many of whom may be from Dublin 15 and would no longer have a public transport connection to Maynooth? Are they all to buy cars?

roddney · 09-04-2014 10:01am

Victor wrote: »

Broombridge to Finglas / Charlestown and possibly on to the airport.

Tthe Point to either (or both) the south docks / Ringsend and East Point / Clontarf Road.

In the context of sweating the current lines, these are big ones for me. Both areas have good population density compared to Green Luas they wanted to extend with developer levies.

In particular extending The Point Luas to East Point and either tunnelling under bay to get to Clontarf of swinging past Clontarf station seems a no brainer. Luas could then conceivable head up the Malahide Road from here.

I'd say it would be difficult to route though Clontarf streets given value and age of properties here as well as narrow streets. Residents would go nuts. Also difficult to do promenade given it's part of Dublin Bay EPA. A 3.5 km arcing tunnel from back of East Point taking in Veron Ave, Harmonstown Station and Artane Roundaout and onto Malahide Road could work, giving a good service and not taking away too much from buses which are pinched on both Howth Road and lower part of Malahide Road. Cheaper option is bay and lower part of Vernon Ave (to stop flooding) and then surface via Veron Ave, Sybill Hill and Brookwood to Artane Roundabout.

dowlingm · 09-04-2014 5:55pm

I would say Luas F1 (Lucan) operating as a branch of Line A in terms of quick-ish completion and bang for buck. If budget is a problem I would halt the alignment at the former Metro West crossing.

F2 (Liberties) is going to be expensive and timeconsuming to thread through the city centre once unmapped utilities, basements and whatnot have to be surveyed and allowed for, so that shouldn't be permitted to hold up F1, especially since a depot on that alignment would be required to stable enough trams to do F2 anyway. Having the F and D depots gives a bit more flexibility in bringing trams into service on different lines, especially if a problem at Sandyford or Red Cow meant borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.

Luas F map: http://www.rpa.ie/Maps/Luas%20Line%20F/LuasLineFMapV2%20201008.jpg

As I've argued here in the past, Metro West's projected numbers were closer to a LUAS than a higher capacity mode. Accordingly, if it was considered important to proceed with something in that corridor, I would build the Line A-Clondalkin-Kildare Line-Liffey Valley/Line F1 section first with Luas West trams dispatched from F1 depot, and then build north towards the Maynooth line crossing and beyond and if feasible a Line A-Line B orbital connection. Ideally any extension of D beyond Broombridge (which I'm of the understanding is possible although I'd love to see how they plan to do it given how the current D terminus is hemmed in) would also meet Luas West forming a resilient network of hub/spoke and orbital trams.

MayoSalmon · 09-04-2014 6:37pm

So we could possibly have...Luas, Dart, Metro, Commuter rail, Bus, BRT.

Excuse my French but What an absolute cluster fcuk.

dowlingm · 09-04-2014 6:55pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

So we could possibly have...Luas, Dart, Metro, Commuter rail, Bus, BRT.

Excuse my French but What an absolute cluster fcuk.

One mode doesn't fit all - most decent size cities have a variety of modes. Of that list Metro (or at least Metro West) is the hardest sell for me.

In Toronto we have commuter rail, commuter bus, urban bus (standard and artic), streetcar, light rail (under construction), light metro and subway.

tp25 · 09-04-2014 6:58pm

monument wrote: »

or elsewhere in Ireland?
...

Greystones to Bray (Co.Wicklow both)

afatbollix · 09-04-2014 7:12pm

This is what I would do in the short term.

Extend the Red line out to East wall. Run it during the week office hours only.

Have a new spur off the red line at James st running down to Trinity. This would ease the amount of trams going over the river.

Then the long term stuff:

Have a spur off the red line to run through Phinox park out to Blanchardstown Centre.
Metro North is a must to be honest but all the lines are a good idea.

Victor · 09-04-2014 9:21pm

icdg wrote: »

There'd be no point diverting the Sligo line to the Kildare line, geography alone (the Liffey valley, and I don't mean the shopping centre!) means you'd realistically have to do it no later than Leixlip, constructing a new branch line to meet the Kildare line around Hazelhatch, and you'd be sending trains significantly out of their way for what gain? Maynooth line services could be improved more cheaply by electrification, closing level crossings and signalling upgrades.

end of the road wrote: »

heres the thing mark, to convert the maynooth line to tram train will surely mean a new line having to be built to re-route the sligo and longford services into heuston? where is that line going to be built? i honestly don't think this is an option

There are a number of options of removing the Sligo / Longford trains from interfering with the Maynooth Line / Loop Line.

Options
* Send Sligo trains to Docklands.
* Provide a new connection to Heuston.
* Provide third track sassing loops where space is available.

Attached map
* Red - cheap option, doesn't do much other than change the terminus. It would be slightly useful for people heading to the south and west of the country.
* Blue - really expensive option, but could be tied into DART Underground. It would need lots of cut and cover.
* Black - existing railways.

end of the road · 09-04-2014 10:46pm

Victor wrote: »

There are a number of options of removing the Sligo / Longford trains from interfering with the Maynooth Line / Loop Line.

Options
* Send Sligo trains to Docklands.
* Provide a new connection to Heuston.
* Provide third track sassing loops where space is available.

Attached map
* Red - cheap option, doesn't do much other than change the terminus. It would be slightly useful for people heading to the south and west of the country.
* Blue - really expensive option, but could be tied into DART Underground. It would need lots of cut and cover.
* Black - existing railways.

option 3 would probably be the most realistic IMO as it would benefit maynooth trains also, option 2 could as you said be tied in with DU (infact doesn't DU by default offer this connection as part of the route?) . option 1 i can't see going down well with sligo/longford passengers unless they actually want to go there? (i bet the stops at pierce and tara by rosslare trains annoy some passengers but the stop at tara benefited me as it offered easier access to the busses i used)

Cool Mo D · 09-04-2014 11:19pm

I think the priority with the Luas has to be expanding the network inside the M50. That is where the ridership is, that is where there is high-density building, that is where traffic is heaviest and good public transport in highest demand.

After BXD, and extension to the Finglas and on to the airport is a no-brainer in my opinion - especially since Metro North is looking unlikely. Followed by Luas Line E. I know this would be a tricky line to build, with gardens needing to be taken and lots of junctions but it goes through the highest density residential area outside the canal which could badly do with better public transport options.
Another options, where there is space for an alignment is to run a Luas line along the Dodder from Milltown to Templeogue, before running down the median of the Tallaght bypass and linking with the Red line in Tallaght. This would effectively link up a huge number of south side suburbs, while providing another Tallaght-City link.

This leaves a huge gap on the Northside between the DART in the East and the Luas through Finglas in the East. This is where Metro North would make a huge difference, but in the absence of Metro North, a Luas link could run down either the Ballymun or Swords road. It's tricky to find a good route to get them into the city centre from there though.

Line F is another line that should be built, though I think that instead of running along Thomas Street and Dame Street it should run along Cork Street and Kevin Street, meeting the existing Green Line at Stephens Green. This would open up much of the city to the new line, as running along Thomas street is very close to the existing Red line, and to Dart Underground.

Victor · 09-04-2014 11:55pm

cmore123 wrote: »

Possibly another line out through Rathmines / Terenure / Templeogue to Rathfarnham?

The suggested line E would probably be much better to do as a QBC or BRT as it would be entirely on-road.

While it wouldn't be a million miles away from the northern DART line, a tram route out through Artane / Donnycarney / Clare Hall, as that area is often badly congested with traffic, would be good.

Again QBC or BRT would be better.

Muahahaha · 10-04-2014 12:37am

Just a question about Luas going to the airport over Metro North. Did the RPA ever seriously consider it back in the planning stages or has it just entered the mix since Metro North got shelved ? Also would Luas be able to handle the capacity of Dublin airport ? I'm just thinking that if it begun in Swords and then went to stops outside the two terminals then they would need very high frequencies because even at a capacity of 300 people per tram it could still struggle to cope with Ryanair and Aer Lingus dropping 200 people out of the sky every 10 minutes or so. Are there any figures out there for averages of people taking Aircoach/Dublin Bus from the airport to the city ?

Victor · 10-04-2014 12:57am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just a question about Luas going to the airport over Metro North. Did the RPA ever seriously consider it back in the planning stages or has it just entered the mix since Metro North got shelved ? Also would Luas be able to handle the capacity of Dublin airport ? I'm just thinking that if it begun in Swords and then went to stops outside the two terminals then they would need very high frequencies because even at a capacity of 300 people per tram it could still struggle to cope with Ryanair and Aer Lingus dropping 200 people out of the sky every 10 minutes or so. Are there any figures out there for averages of people taking Aircoach/Dublin Bus from the airport to the city ?

There is a Dublin Bus 747 every 15 minutes

Aircoach have
700 - 30 minutes
702 - 60 minutes
703 - 60 minutes

I'm sure a tram could cope. That said, to remain time competitive, not all trams might stop at all stops.

devnull · 10-04-2014 6:19am

700 is every 15 mins, only every 30 mins between midnight and 4am or so.

icdg · 10-04-2014 7:23am

Victor wrote: »

There are a number of options of removing the Sligo / Longford trains from interfering with the Maynooth Line / Loop Line.

Options
* Send Sligo trains to Docklands.
* Provide a new connection to Heuston.
* Provide third track sassing loops where space is available.

Attached map
* Red - cheap option, doesn't do much other than change the terminus. It would be slightly useful for people heading to the south and west of the country.
* Blue - really expensive option, but could be tied into DART Underground. It would need lots of cut and cover.
* Black - existing railways.

Neither options 1 or 3 do what the OP wanted which is to replace the Maynooth line from Clonsilla in with a tram, since you'd need to keep pretty much the entire heavy rail line intact (and in fact option 1 is pretty pointless in itself). Option 3 would be a good thing to do in it's own right as part of a line upgrade (if you could, because the canal means space to provide them is quite limited) but wouldn't facilitate the OP's scheme at all, because heavy rail trains can't run on a tram line no matter how many passing loops you provide.

Muahahaha · 10-04-2014 4:46pm

Victor wrote: »

There is a Dublin Bus 747 every 15 minutes

Aircoach have
700 - 30 minutes
702 - 60 minutes
703 - 60 minutes

I'm sure a tram could cope. That said, to remain time competitive, not all trams might stop at all stops.

Thanks. I presume they would have carriages with specially installed luggage racks on them too ? It just had me scratching my head, especially if the route began in Swords which has a pretty big population. I suppose a lot of Swords people work in the airport so would be getting off there, creating more space for airline passengers going into the city center. But it just got me wondering if Luas can handle the loads at the airport then why was the Metro North and associated expensive underground tunnelling ever even considered as the favoured option ? Was it just a bit of Celtic Tiger madness or is there actually some concrete reasons why MN would be favoured over Luas from the airport ?

Jamie2k9 · 10-04-2014 5:14pm

I'm sure a tram could cope. That said, to remain time competitive, not all trams might stop at all stops.

Would this be really possible operatioanlly?

As said time is a big problem and can't see a tram working.

markpb · 11-04-2014 7:09am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Would this be really possible operatioanlly?

As said time is a big problem and can't see a tram working.

LA ran a mix of all stops and express trains on one of their light rail lines for a few years so its definitely possible. They abandoned it after a while saying demand on the line warranted a full all-stops service so perhaps when the frequencies increased it didnt work any more.

Heavy rail (in both Dart and suburban form) is no faster than light rail (in Luas form), they both average around 30kph. Unless you're suggesting building a dedicated airport rail lime with very few stops, I can't see heavy rail offering a speed advantage.

Victor · 11-04-2014 4:03pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

I suppose a lot of Swords people work in the airport so would be getting off there, creating more space for airline passengers going into the city center.

I get the impression that the proportion of people working in the airport is modest relative to its proximity. In any such situation, if you want space for airport passengers, just starts some services at the airport.

But it just got me wondering if Luas can handle the loads at the airport then why was the Metro North and associated expensive underground tunnelling ever even considered as the favoured option ? Was it just a bit of Celtic Tiger madness or is there actually some concrete reasons why MN would be favoured over Luas from the airport ?

Luas wouln't be able to provide the same level of service as Metro North - not in frequency, size of tram, service reliability, speed of service. The airport represented only a small proportion 10%?) of Metro North passengers.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Would this be really possible operatioanlly?

Of course - it is used on the Larne line. The semi-express departs immediately before the all-stops. This gives it the maximum time / distance away from the tram in front. By the time you have travelled a substantial distance, you will have caught up with the tram in front, givign a substantial time saving. If you get the timings right, you can have a third track where you can over-take the tram in front.

cgcsb · 11-04-2014 7:23pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just a question about Luas going to the airport over Metro North. Did the RPA ever seriously consider it back in the planning stages or has it just entered the mix since Metro North got shelved ? Also would Luas be able to handle the capacity of Dublin airport ? I'm just thinking that if it begun in Swords and then went to stops outside the two terminals then they would need very high frequencies because even at a capacity of 300 people per tram it could still struggle to cope with Ryanair and Aer Lingus dropping 200 people out of the sky every 10 minutes or so. Are there any figures out there for averages of people taking Aircoach/Dublin Bus from the airport to the city ?

Luas is not being officially considered to serve the Airport, the official line is that Metro is the only show in town. The NTA concluded in their BRT study that the damand would outstrip the capacity of light rail on that corridor. Yet the govt is forcing through this BRT bo11ix never the less.

cgcsb · 11-04-2014 7:30pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thanks. I presume they would have carriages with specially installed luggage racks on them too ? It just had me scratching my head, especially if the route began in Swords which has a pretty big population. I suppose a lot of Swords people work in the airport so would be getting off there, creating more space for airline passengers going into the city center. But it just got me wondering if Luas can handle the loads at the airport then why was the Metro North and associated expensive underground tunnelling ever even considered as the favoured option ? Was it just a bit of Celtic Tiger madness or is there actually some concrete reasons why MN would be favoured over Luas from the airport ?

the only reason underground systems are considered in any city is because there is no realistic option for surface running due to space constraints. With metro North originally it was planned to above ground on the ballymun road and dive underground at st Mobhi road but the ressidents association for Ballymun complained that the running rail on a elevated viaduct would attract anti social behaviour, go figure.

strassenwo!f · 11-04-2014 11:48pm

I can't really see the point in the blue line in Victor's map above. It avoids most residential areas along the way, going through empty and remote places like golf courses and then the Phoenix Park before hitting the river, where it is very unlikely that it would be able to have neat connections with either the mainline Heuston Station or the proposed underground DART station (because of the necessary flyovers, etc). Absolutely not worth all the expensive tunnelling (cut and cover, or otherwise) involved, in any scenario.

If you were going to spend all that money, you'd be better off tunnelling some form of a triangular link between the Maynooth line and the Kildare line, through Lucan, at the left of the map. This would take Maynooth/Leixlip suburban trains off the black route shown by Victor, and you could also start trains at Clonsilla (for example) heading initially west but going into this tunnel. Looks strange, I know, but I feel sure that'd get people from Clonsilla into the heart of town quicker, if the interconnector is built.

icdg · 12-04-2014 9:02am

You wouldn't be building the interconnector at all in that scenario, the point of it would be gone.

New Luas lines or extensions after BXD

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