New Luas lines or extensions after BXD

I'd prefer to see Luas than BRT to the airport although I'm torn about the route - Drumcondra seems like the obvious choice but DCU would be a great trip generator and also has the advantage of introducing people to good public transport when they move to Dublin. Serving both by on-street rail would make the trip too slow though.

After that, I'd love to see the Sligo and Maynooth trains rerouted into Heuston (in preparation for DU) and their current rail line converted to tram operation. I genuinely believe the people of Ashtown, PPR and Cabra are poorly served by the current suburban service. A more frequent but lower capacity tram service would have the same total capacity but give a much better service. Those people live the same distance from town as Milltown or Sandyford but can only dream of a tram every five minutes, at 12:30 on weeknights or 11:30 on Sunday nights.

Broombridge to Finglas / Charlestown and possibly on to the airport.

Tthe Point to either (or both) the south docks / Ringsend and East Point / Clontarf Road.

F1 (Fatima-College Green) would be useful in improving the service speed into the city centre.

Parnell Street to Ballybough.

SSG to Lansdowne Road DART.

markpb wrote: »

After that, I'd love to see the Sligo and Maynooth trains rerouted into Heuston (in preparation for DU) and their current rail line converted to tram operation.

how would you do it though? that would surely mean the construction of a new line from maynooth to somewhere to link into heuston wouldn't it not? also sligo passengers mightn't want to be re-routed into heuston

markpb wrote: »

I genuinely believe the people of Ashtown, PPR and Cabra are poorly served by the current suburban service. A more frequent but lower capacity tram service would have the same total capacity but give a much better service. Those people live the same distance from town as Milltown or Sandyford but can only dream of a tram every five minutes, at 12:30 on weeknights or 11:30 on Sunday nights.

i agree that may be the case but wouldn't it cause more headaches then it would solve in relation to the heavy rail system currently using the line/route?

I agree about Line F and it would ease pressure on red line between Heuston and Connolly by people changing to finish at Collage Green. The next line is unlikely for 10 years and included in the 2020-2024 rounds of investment as DART Underground is likely to be given go ahead in part during the 2016-2020 spend which will probably take most of the funding.

If given a choice would people prefer Dart Underground or another Luas line in 2016-2020 spend? Can't help but feel Luas would be a better spend but then again Dart Underground would benefit commuters on Heuston commuter belts.

Agree with the above re north side Dublin - woefully neglected in terms of public transport for decades - but seeing as these are mainly working-class or welfare areas containing people who vote SF or not at all, it's not surprising that the only real improvement (the DART) was aligned along the well-heeled coastal regions.

Contrast with south Dublin with it's DART, LUAS, 46A and it's plain to see where the investment goes. Ironically they'd probably do better on the north side but that would also require a determined effort to deal with the social problems in those areas (caused in part by the lack of investment generally) which there's no political will to do either. We've already seen the results of this with the existing Red Line.

Someone raised a good point on the rail thread though - we simply don't have the density or public mindset to justify the expense for these sort of schemes. The population of the whole country is only a fraction of some of the bigger cities on the continent and yet we expect the same services? Then there's the fact that Irish people don't want to live in high-density areas and consider public transport to be the choice for those with no better options.

Given all this a reality check needed I think.

devnull wrote: »

The first part of DUblin that needs transport sorting out is the North of the city and especially the North West, it has been starved of any proper mass transport infrastructure for a long time and doesn't have anywhere near the choices and options that the south side has.

In fairness though, (assuming we're referring to the same geographical location) is the north west that badly served? You have quite frequent commuter rail services along the Maynooth line (capturing parts of Blanch/Castleknock/Coolmine/Clonsilla/Ongar) which has been further improved with the spur to Dunboyne. The 37/38/39/39A/70 are frequent and the 39A in particular has vastly improved in directness and time savings and the new BRT is on the way for the same route. Places like Mulhuddart, Tyrellstown and maybe Finglas etc are quite poorly served alright however but I imagine it's not feasible for every suburb to have rail connectivity.

what was the letter of the line that was at some point far in future supposed to go through beaumont to kilbarrack?

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Agree with the above re north side Dublin - woefully neglected in terms of public transport for decades - but seeing as these are mainly working-class or welfare areas containing people who vote SF or not at all, it's not surprising that the only real improvement (the DART) was aligned along the well-heeled coastal regions.

Contrast with south Dublin with it's DART, LUAS, 46A and it's plain to see where the investment goes. Ironically they'd probably do better on the north side but that would also require a determined effort to deal with the social problems in those areas (caused in part by the lack of investment generally) which there's no political will to do either. We've already seen the results of this with the existing Red Line.

Someone raised a good point on the rail thread though - we simply don't have the density or public mindset to justify the expense for these sort of schemes. The population of the whole country is only a fraction of some of the bigger cities on the continent and yet we expect the same services? Then there's the fact that Irish people don't want to live in high-density areas and consider public transport to be the choice for those with no better options.

Given all this a reality check needed I think.

I think that you're being a little unfair in saying that there has been no public transport investment in north Dublin - it has had several additional bus routes added - the 4, 40d, 140, Swords Express, with existing routes on the other QBCs straightened such as the 13 and 39a, better integration of existing routes on the QBCs, larger vehicles on the key Blanchardstown routes and now has the prospect of two BRT routes being added.

The reality is that the investment in rail on the south side to date has been on routes that were already in existence (DART / Green Line) and which would have had very high car usage.However, I'd hardly think that the Red line would be described as well heeled by any means.

I'd imagine that if and when money is available, that the next extension for LUAS would be from Broombridge to Finglas, and that could possibly be extended subsequently to the Airport.

However, if it is decided to extend to the Airport, then I would prefer to see a DART connection to the Airport via Clongriffen (with interchange there to/from Belfast) over Metro North.

I'm not so convinced by the potential benefits from line F - It certainly would be slower than the 25a/25b to/from Lucan given the on-street priority those routes have, and I think that it could actually be not that much faster than the existing bus service to/from Ballyfermot given the route that it takes.

Nor am I as convinced as others seem to be by extending the Green Line further south - it is already slower than the 145 bus from Cherrywood to St Stephen's Green, due to the route taken (which is the correct route as it serves the more populated areas), and whether the market to/from Dundrum or Sandyford is that big from points south of Cherrywood. Personally I think that developing a P & R site at Cherrywood should be more of a priority.

For reference:

The Randstad Rail lines between the Hague and Zoetermeer in Holland run on converted heavy rail tracks.

Apart from being financially attractive in the long run, there are other benefits to converting heavy rail lines to light rail where appropriate. It is easier to run a more frequent service. Frequency of service is often a major stumbling block to the success of transport lines. 15 minutes is considered bare-minimum, 10-minutes is good, and 5 minutes is fantastic. Secondly, it is easier to route light rail through the existing built environment. Much more difficult and expensive to do so with heavy rail.

I'm not saying that converting part or all of the line through Blanch to light rail is a good or bad idea, just that there is recent precedent and that it may prove attractive in the long-run for Dublin 15's public transport needs.

markpb wrote: »

Signalling upgrades are neither cheap nor simple. The removal of each level crossing cost millions, the ongoing operation of them costs hundreds of thousands per year. Finding space to terminate any extra trains from Maynooth on the Dart line or at any of it's stations is almost impossible without significant work. All this means that the chances of the Maynooth line being upgraded in it's current form in any meaningful way is close to zero.

Meanwhile, the people of Clonsilla, Castleknock, Ashtown, etc are penalised for living on a suburban line. Compare the service per hour and operating hours of the Maynooth line to the Sandyford line:

Suburban (Western)
Weekday 36 per day (17h service)
Saturday 18 per day (16h service)
Sunday 13 per day (10h service)

Luas (Green)
Weekday 144 per day (20h service)
Saturday 92 per day (18h service)
Sunday 70 per day (16h service)

The Luas averages 27kph between Sandyford and St. Stephens Green, the suburban train averages 30kph so heavy rail isn't providing any speed benefit to passengers, even after they've waited multiples longer for their train in the first place.

Every rail alignment in the city, of which there are very few, should be carrying the maximum number of passengers possible, otherwise it's being wasted. In 2013, the two Luas lines carried 90,000 passengers per day (hitting a maximum of 145,000 in 2007). In 2011, the Maynooth line was only carrying 15,000. Unless those numbers have risen considerably, that line would be better served carrying a more frequent tram service for people living in Dublin.

heres the thing mark, to convert the maynooth line to tram train will surely mean a new line having to be built to re-route the sligo and longford services into heuston? where is that line going to be built? i honestly don't think this is an option

Banjoxed wrote: »

Best plan would be to convert the Maynooth line to DART. Higher capacity, considerably faster and attractive to car drivers. Oh wait..

"Oh wait" what?

Banjoxed wrote: »

Best plan would be to convert the Maynooth line to DART. Higher capacity, considerably faster and attractive to car drivers. Oh wait..

Dart to Maynooth would be prohibitively expensive and, given the loadings on the line right now, isn't warranted. People look at packed trains and think Maynooth to Connolly is the next Jubilee line but it isn't - the packed trains are as much a side-effect of the infrequent service as anything else.

Anyone waiting for this project will be waiting a long time. Almost as long as they wait for their trains on a Sunday... ;-)

Edit: Dart from Malahide to Bray averages 27kph, exactly the same as Luas and slightly slower than the western suburban line.

Edit Edit: "Dart is more attractive to car drivers (than Luas)" - have you got anything to back that up? It's no faster, less frequent and passengers don't give a damn about higher capacity as long as they get on. It's also staffed by Irish Rail which, unfairly, people associate with unions and strikes.

monument wrote: »

or elsewhere in Ireland?
...

Greystones to Bray (Co.Wicklow both)

icdg wrote: »

There'd be no point diverting the Sligo line to the Kildare line, geography alone (the Liffey valley, and I don't mean the shopping centre!) means you'd realistically have to do it no later than Leixlip, constructing a new branch line to meet the Kildare line around Hazelhatch, and you'd be sending trains significantly out of their way for what gain? Maynooth line services could be improved more cheaply by electrification, closing level crossings and signalling upgrades.

end of the road wrote: »

heres the thing mark, to convert the maynooth line to tram train will surely mean a new line having to be built to re-route the sligo and longford services into heuston? where is that line going to be built? i honestly don't think this is an option

There are a number of options of removing the Sligo / Longford trains from interfering with the Maynooth Line / Loop Line.

Options
* Send Sligo trains to Docklands.
* Provide a new connection to Heuston.
* Provide third track sassing loops where space is available.

Attached map
* Red - cheap option, doesn't do much other than change the terminus. It would be slightly useful for people heading to the south and west of the country.
* Blue - really expensive option, but could be tied into DART Underground. It would need lots of cut and cover.
* Black - existing railways.

I think the priority with the Luas has to be expanding the network inside the M50. That is where the ridership is, that is where there is high-density building, that is where traffic is heaviest and good public transport in highest demand.

After BXD, and extension to the Finglas and on to the airport is a no-brainer in my opinion - especially since Metro North is looking unlikely. Followed by Luas Line E. I know this would be a tricky line to build, with gardens needing to be taken and lots of junctions but it goes through the highest density residential area outside the canal which could badly do with better public transport options.
Another options, where there is space for an alignment is to run a Luas line along the Dodder from Milltown to Templeogue, before running down the median of the Tallaght bypass and linking with the Red line in Tallaght. This would effectively link up a huge number of south side suburbs, while providing another Tallaght-City link.

This leaves a huge gap on the Northside between the DART in the East and the Luas through Finglas in the East. This is where Metro North would make a huge difference, but in the absence of Metro North, a Luas link could run down either the Ballymun or Swords road. It's tricky to find a good route to get them into the city centre from there though.

Line F is another line that should be built, though I think that instead of running along Thomas Street and Dame Street it should run along Cork Street and Kevin Street, meeting the existing Green Line at Stephens Green. This would open up much of the city to the new line, as running along Thomas street is very close to the existing Red line, and to Dart Underground.

Just a question about Luas going to the airport over Metro North. Did the RPA ever seriously consider it back in the planning stages or has it just entered the mix since Metro North got shelved ? Also would Luas be able to handle the capacity of Dublin airport ? I'm just thinking that if it begun in Swords and then went to stops outside the two terminals then they would need very high frequencies because even at a capacity of 300 people per tram it could still struggle to cope with Ryanair and Aer Lingus dropping 200 people out of the sky every 10 minutes or so. Are there any figures out there for averages of people taking Aircoach/Dublin Bus from the airport to the city ?