[Article] 6,000 learner drivers fined for breaking law

Davidth88 · 02-02-2010 9:33am

annieobrien8 wrote: »

I didn't say there should be no requirement to be accompanied while learning. That's fine and makes a reasonable degree of sense, although someone in the passenger seat can do very little if something goes wrong suddenly. But it should be up to each individual to decide when they're ready to take their test and then if they pass, be it after 2 days practice or 2 years, they needn't be accompanied anymore.

You know I totally agree with you here !

I learnt to drive, and passed my test in about 6 weeks ( when I put my mind to it ) I had to apply about 6 months before because of the waiting list in the UK then ( early 80's ).

Perhaps a system of R or suchlike ( like I think they have in the uK and AUs ) would be a compromise

Whatever the case , people who have not got a licence SHOULD NOT DRIVE unless under instruction.

As for asking bus drivers/pilots , no I don't because I am pretty sure that bus drivers have passed a stingent PSV test ( or I would like to think so , maybe you have planted a seed of doubt ) , and pilots are very heavily tested etc through the IAA/CAA/FAA whatever.

the_syco · 02-02-2010 10:05am

http://www.drivingtest.ie/drivingtest/

It's a fúcking joke on how many places have a "few" tests cancelled, every day. My local test centre would be Naas... which has a quater of it's tests cancelled, and the rest "under review".

The day the SGS people were laid off, the price goes from €38 to €75, and now multiple test centres don't test people. Fúcking joke indeed.

Mike 1972 · 02-02-2010 10:41am

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

There would be a lot more Full Licence holders out there (including my mother) who obtained their licence over the counter in the Post Office prior to the introduction of the driving test in 1964.

Or the current chairman of the RSA !

Finbarire · 02-02-2010 12:42pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

self certification eh ?

judging by driving test pass rates it's 50:50 that a learner who thinks they can drive can pass what must be the easiest test in the OECD. And the standard of Irish drivers who have passed the test !

What's that thing called where someone who is learning thinks their competance is greater than it actually is ?

Government could make a lot of money if they enforced this fully

Hello, It is called red mist.
Best Regards Finbar

jhegarty · 02-02-2010 5:13pm

Finbarire wrote: »

Hello, if you are driving unaccompanied you are also driving with out insurance as your insurance is void
Finbar

No, your wrong.

Your are still insured.

Finbarire · 02-02-2010 5:17pm

jhegarty wrote: »

No, your wrong.

Your are still insured.

Hello, no you are not insured because you are not driving in accordance with the driver permit
Best Regards
Finbar

jhegarty · 02-02-2010 5:20pm

Finbarire wrote: »

Hello, no you are not insured because you are not driving in accordance with the driver permit
Best Regards
Finbar

Why do people keep posting this ?

The Irish Insurance Federation would not agree :
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/motoring/learners-who-drive-alone-still-insured-1419956.html

Cookie_Monster · 02-02-2010 6:06pm

Finbarire wrote: »

Hello, no you are not insured because you are not driving in accordance with the driver permit
Best Regards
Finbar

why don't you go check or at least listen to people here who know better than you? As others have pointed out you are still insured

:rolleyes:

corktina · 02-02-2010 8:29pm

MAYBE you are insured but only third party...you wont get a cent for your car repairs or injury or legal fees....and they will probably came after you to repay whatever they pay out to a third party.

annieobrien8 · 02-02-2010 8:56pm

Yes, the state is responsible for the original testing but you're reliant on the bus companies etc to ensure their drivers' licences are up to date and really to ensure they're still competent!

jhegarty · 02-02-2010 9:23pm

corktina wrote: »

MAYBE you are insured but only third party...you wont get a cent for your car repairs or injury or legal fees....and they will probably came after you to repay whatever they pay out to a third party.

Can you point to even one case of this actually happening ?

Mimikyu · 02-02-2010 11:40pm

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corktina · 03-02-2010 9:16am

jhegarty wrote: »

Can you point to even one case of this actually happening ?

um in every case of someone who only has third party insurance I guess....

murphaph · 03-02-2010 9:19am

Captain Morgan wrote: »

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Dear oh dear. PAY A DRIVING INSTRUCTOR FOR LESSONS like most civilised countries in Europe! Do you use your car to get to work etc? If so, then you aren't "learning to drive" you are simply driving without a licence.

Cookie_Monster · 03-02-2010 9:21am

i have to agree the accompanied by a qualified driver is a bit useless to be honest.

It should be like most countries and have to be an instructor

Davidth88 · 03-02-2010 10:02am

Actually I think you need a bit of both.

You HAVE to have a number of lessons with a qualified driving instructor. But I think a few hours driving without an instructor is useful , like learning a musical instrument you need time to practice.

However we are talking about driving on roads with other people here , so you need someone with experience sitting next to you

Mimikyu · 03-02-2010 11:51am

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Ham'nd'egger · 03-02-2010 12:28pm

Captain Morgan wrote: »

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If you can justify the cost of buying, washing, maintaining, refueling, insuring, taxing etc in running a car, surely the cost of lessons in how to use a car is a small investment that holds to you over the years.

Captain Morgan wrote: »

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Put it like this, what exactly are you learning without them there than with them there?

Mimikyu · 03-02-2010 12:36pm

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Ham'nd'egger · 03-02-2010 1:09pm

Captain Morgan wrote: »

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Then go out and get more lessons. If the cost is such an issue then in all fairness you should not have bought a car until such time as you could legally take it out.

Captain Morgan wrote: »

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It's called a Learners Permit for a very good reason; to permit you to learn to drive. It's up to you to make use of it along with your legal driver beside you.

murphaph · 03-02-2010 4:27pm

Captain Morgan wrote: »

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It costs approximately €1,000 to €1,500 to get a german driving licence through the system here, which does not allow you to drive alone until you have passed the test and until you can pass the test, you may only drive in a driving school car with an instructor. If you lose your licence in Germany it is even harder to get it back as you have to undergo psychological testing (which you have to pay the state for) to determine if you are fit to sit back behind the wheel. Can you see why a german driver might respect that little pink piece of paper more than you now and why they might drive with more care and attention to hold onto it? (whereas you seem comfortable driving without a licence at all).

Captain Morgan wrote: »

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It would at least be legal and better than just you as an inexperienced driver being alone in charge of the vehicle. I favour this system also being outlawed and being replaced with a real one, like in Germany. The benefits of better drivers (fewer crashes, less need for stupid roadsigns telling people rules of the road that they should already know etc.) being the return on the extra cost.

Mimikyu · 03-02-2010 5:06pm

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the_syco · 03-02-2010 6:16pm

murphaph wrote: »

It costs approximately €1,000 to €1,500 to get a german driving licence through the system here, which does not allow you to drive alone until you have passed the test and until you can pass the test, you may only drive in a driving school car with an instructor. If you lose your licence in Germany it is even harder to get it back as you have to undergo psychological testing (which you have to pay the state for) to determine if you are fit to sit back behind the wheel. Can you see why a german driver might respect that little pink piece of paper more than you now and why they might drive with more care and attention to hold onto it? (whereas you seem comfortable driving without a licence at all).

Pretty sure that cost includes qualified instructors. Until recently, anyone with a license could teach you, and most of them were crap teachers. been a good driver, and a good teacher are two totally different things. Also, german get taught how to drive at night, etc. We're not, nor are we taught in any conditions other than a dry road. Heck, if the road is wet here, your test is cancelled. I'd say there is a wet road test in Germany?

Ham'nd'egger · 03-02-2010 6:28pm

Captain Morgan wrote: »

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A provisional licence is not a licence. A driver with a full licence is in the car in a supervisory role, something you as an inexperienced and unqualified driver fail to accept and comprehend.

Cookie_Monster · 03-02-2010 6:57pm

Captain Morgan wrote: »

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You either hold a learner permit or an out of date provisional licence, neither of which entitle you to drive by yourself

Mimikyu · 03-02-2010 7:25pm

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congo_90 · 03-02-2010 7:35pm

To put jump in here I will say I partly agree with the accompanied driver rule such that having a more experienced driver there may be of assistance. The full licenced driver however is not in control of the vehicle so it's strictly for instruction.

Some prov licences are still that. not permits so useage of either term is fine imo.

What I will say is I rarely drove accompanied when on a provisional and it was no big deal. blah blah stupid law that does nothing for no-one. How can I. A fully licenced driver stop a permit holder crashing?

Mimikyu · 03-02-2010 7:40pm

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markpb · 03-02-2010 9:17pm

Captain Morgan wrote: »

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They're supposed to be there to teach you, to correct your mistakes and offer advice based on their (supposed) experience. If you think they need dual controls, perhaps you don't have much confidence in your driving

Instead, they should be reprimanding you if you tailgate, fail to make sufficient progress, indicate, etc. I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend - it would be better if it was restricted to driving instructors but everyone (yourself included) would complain about the terrible oppression and how expensive it is.

Mimikyu · 03-02-2010 10:16pm

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markpb · 03-02-2010 10:45pm

Captain Morgan wrote: »

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But isn't that a good enough function? The problem is that most people, once they've mastered the basic skills, consider themselves a competent driver and aren't aware of the faults they have developed. Having someone beside you watching you is vital to keeping you on the right track.

T-Square · 03-02-2010 10:53pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

What do they mean UP to €1,000 ?

http://www.rsa.ie/SERVICES/upload/File/Licensing/Summary%20of%20Changes%20effective%20after%20June%2030th.pdf

It means just like it does in the shops,
up to 50% off, in other words, nothing is 50% off, and if you get 10% off you'll be doing well.

Like the poster above said, it'll be 20 in the poor box, and a little slap on the wrist for little Johnny who was only driving to work uninsured, no license, while banned.

Wishbone Ash · 04-02-2010 12:31am

congo_90 wrote: »

Some prov licences are still that. not permits so useage of either term is fine imo

The last Provisional Licences were issued on the 29th of October 2007. The maximum duration of a Provisional Licence is 2 years. The issuing of Learner Permits began on the 30th October 2007.

I'd be most interested to hear how you think some Provisional Licences are still valid? You should really get your facts right before commenting on a public forum.

Captain Morgan - many of us have done lessons and passed driving tests for categories of vehicles which we didn't own and therefore were only able to practise while doing lessons and therefore had to be accompanied. I didn't have a car, motorcycle, truck or bus at home in which I could practise on. What makes some people so special that they should be considered OK to drive unaccompanied?

murphaph · 04-02-2010 9:52am

the_syco wrote: »

Pretty sure that cost includes qualified instructors. Until recently, anyone with a license could teach you, and most of them were crap teachers. been a good driver, and a good teacher are two totally different things. Also, german get taught how to drive at night, etc. We're not, nor are we taught in any conditions other than a dry road. Heck, if the road is wet here, your test is cancelled. I'd say there is a wet road test in Germany?

Yes, that's the approximate cost for lessons, classroom lessons before even stepping into a car! Then the cost for the test istself and so on, but a German licence is itself valid for life-a new one with new picture does not cost anything.

Germans must also do lessons on the Autobahn and if there's one nearby they will be tested on it. There is an exemption for people that simply live too far from one, but not many can avail of that thanks to the dense motorway network!

annieobrien8 · 04-02-2010 11:55pm

markpb your comment made me laugh! Not at you but at the idea that accompanying drivers prevent a learner from developing bad habits. I know you're right but it doesn't happen in reality! People who've held full licences for 2 years or more tend to have forgotten all the proper driving rules like no coasting, no tailgating etc. By that stage they're driving with one hand on the wheel, they lane hop, they use mobile phones while driving... and some just sit back and relax for the journey!

There's also a downside to insisting on a person being accompanied. Learner drivers probably need to concentrate more while driving but having someone in the car encourages chatting and general distractions!

Cookie_Monster · 05-02-2010 9:22am

annieobrien8 wrote: »

markpb your comment made me laugh! Not at you but at the idea that accompanying drivers prevent a learner from developing bad habits. I know you're right but it doesn't happen in reality! People who've held full licences for 2 years or more tend to have forgotten all the proper driving rules like no coasting, no tailgating etc. By that stage they're driving with one hand on the wheel, they lane hop, they use mobile phones while driving... and some just sit back and relax for the journey!

There's also a downside to insisting on a person being accompanied. Learner drivers probably need to concentrate more while driving but having someone in the car encourages chatting and general distractions!

if chatting to someone distracts you then don't do it, it shouldn't distract you anyway. His post makes a very good point.

Accompanying drivers, if doind what they're supposed to while supervising, will stop many bad habits such a riding the clutch, encourage correct use of lights and indicators, make driver aware of correct gear for situation, explain road layouts or signs where driver may be confused, and many other things

annieobrien8 · 05-02-2010 9:54pm

I didn't say it distracts me, I'm just pointing out that chatting is a potential downside to that rule. People don't suddenly become mutes because they're sitting in a car.

And cookie monster you again are quoting the theory behind the requirement of an accompanying driver. It must be great to live in a world where everyone and everything carry out their functions as intended.

I know a lot of people who learned to drive in the last couple of years so I know how useful, or not, accompanying drivers are.

HydeRoad · 05-02-2010 10:12pm

Barely a quarter of all private cars on the road at any one time are being driven safely, to test standard, with the driver fully aware of what they are doing. At least half of all motorists are to some measure failing either to maintain test standard, or proper observation or concentration. And somewhere near a quarter are probably actively being driven in a dangerous manner, and should be put off the road with further education required.

Bearing this in mind, it is probably fruitless to demand learners to be accompanied at all times by qualified drivers, given that three quarters of those 'qualified' drivers are not up to the business of taking a learner driver to task over bad driving practice. In fact, they are probably in many or most cases, doing more harm than good.

However, some sanction on learner drivers must exist, and far too many learner drivers are taking one or two lessons just to gain confidence to move the car, and then going on to 'teach themselves' how to drive. It is the attitude of absolute entitlement that some learners perceive that marks them out as most likely to have a bad attitude when actually driving the car.

The learner's permit is just that, a permit to LEARN to drive, no more, and it is increasingly urgent that mandatory driving 'hours' under qualified ADI tuition be a requirement for a test APPLICATION. Preferably there would be some communal classroom hours too, in the matters of rules of the road, lane discipline, signalling, junctions, accident procedure, etc. Learner drivers really need to learn the 'attitude' before they ever learn anything else.

Cookie_Monster · 06-02-2010 1:33pm

TBH all of this discussion is redundant until the Gardai actually start enforcing the laws regarding learner drivers. If they activly enforced them and fined people the €1000 people would sotp taking the chance, but at the moment its like most of the laws and punishments in this country, enforced in an ad-hoc and when they feel like it manner

corktina · 06-02-2010 1:50pm

and the title of the thread is....oh yes, 6000 L drivers fined....:D

annieobrien8 · 07-02-2010 5:08pm

The possibility of getting done for it is enough to scare me off, well that and the fact that I know I'm not good enough to be on the road solo yet!

Cookie_Monster · 07-02-2010 5:41pm

corktina wrote: »

and the title of the thread is....oh yes, 6000 L drivers fined....:D

thats a pretty small amount overall though. and I suspect few of them paid the €1000

corktina · 07-02-2010 5:54pm

tbh its about 6000 more than i thought would get fined....as you say though a drop in the ocean, i see people everyday who are most likely on learner permits and driving alone

munchkin_utd · 26-04-2010 11:17am

UPDATE:

Warning as 14,000 L-drivers caught in garda clampdown
By Michael Brennan Political Correspondent
Monday April 26 2010
THOUSANDS of learner drivers have been caught driving without L-plates or unaccompanied by a qualified driver.

Almost 14,000 'L' drivers have been summonsed for driving without L-plates or a qualified driver since the new laws were introduced in July 2008.
The Irish Independent has learned that many of these drivers have been hit with minimum fines of €1,000 for dangerous driving, driving unaccompanied or having wasted the "second chance" they were given.
As part of their campaign, gardai have mounted "Operation Permit" to target learners driving unaccompanied to secondary school. It has been credited with leading to a large reduction in this activity.
<snip>

Learner drivers accounted for 13pc of all drivers killed on the roads in 2008 -- 17 out of 125 driver fatalities. And around 32 learner drivers were injured in serious crashes
The Public Against Road Carnage group want the gardai to prevent learner drivers from driving unaccompanied.

Spokeswoman Susan Gray said she had been contacted by a mother who had lost her daughter in a road crash.
"Her daughter was a learner driver who had no driving lessons, no L-plates and was driving alone.
The gardai stopped her twice before she died but didn't prosecute her for any of these offences," she said.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/warning-as-14000-ldrivers-caught-in-garda-clampdown-2152393.html

Nice of the guards to give second (and more) chances to learner drivers driving unaccompanied.
Unfortunately if they had taken a harder line, then maybe some people wouldnt have been killed in the meantime.

I still would argue that some amount of proper driving lessons from a qualified instructor should be compulsory so that learners start off with good habits and professionally communicated driving techniques in a controlled and safe environment.

Even if thats only that you must take a number of them before being allowed out like currently is the case with an amateur untrained uncertified driving instructor (better known as "the accompanying person")

Cookie_Monster · 26-04-2010 11:23am

Spokeswoman Susan Gray said she had been contacted by a mother who had lost her daughter in a road crash.
"Her daughter was a learner driver who had no driving lessons, no L-plates and was driving alone.
The gardai stopped her twice before she died but didn't prosecute her for any of these offences," she said.

that bit is interesting - I wonder is she trying to blame the guards for inaction leading to her daughter death?

In relation to the rest of it, still not enough being done, people getting away with it too lightly. There are two people I work with, both learner, both unaccompanied 5 days a week on the M50 to and from work. Still see themselves having no chance of getting caught or of any consequences if they do.

I'll say I did it too and I'm not going to vilify them for doing it but there still hasn't been a change in attitude to getting caught or the consequences, which I think is key to the whole situation. Obviously once the impact and chances of getting caught is big enough attitudes will change, but I haven't seem much evidence of this happening personally

[Article] 6,000 learner drivers fined for breaking law

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