Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Fishooks12 · 08-11-2012 11:08am

goreyguy wrote: »

Can't believe Henry only has 2 Ireland caps and O'Mahony has 7.

It's this kind of crap that will ruin the thread. What has that got to do with the match at the weekend? Nothing. They both start

08-11-2012 11:10am

Fishooks12 wrote: »

why? McCarthy is in good form and Ryan is Ireland's best lock next to POC.

Are we gone to the point now where people are really so gushing to exaggerate a perfectly reasonable second row selection? You probably wouldn't have believed your eyes no matter who was selected. Maybe just get behind the team now that it's named and check the faux outrage at the door........

fauxtrage

ray jay · 08-11-2012 11:12am

No mention of who the bench fly half is unfortunately. Otherwise that selection is more or less what was flagged earlier in the week, I'm happy enough with it.

Fishooks12 · 08-11-2012 11:12am

ray jay wrote: »

No mention of who the bench fly half unfortunately. Otherwise that selection is more or less what was flagged earlier in the week, I'm happy enough with it.

The fact that there was no mention of it would lead us to believe that it's ROG

irishbucsfan · 08-11-2012 11:13am

goreyguy wrote: »

Can't believe Henry only has 2 Ireland caps and O'Mahony has 7.

It makes a bit of sense in fairness.

Henry had a great season in 2008/2009 as a no. 8 but he was pretty inexperienced and so he went and played in the Churchill Cup (with the likes of Healy). He was excellent there as well.

He returned to Ulster and everyone was really excited for him but his form dropped off a cliff until last season. So it's completely understandable he wasn't capped during that period.

Then last season he started to play brilliantly again (starting to really turn heads when Clermont came to Ravenhill in November). He was doing excellently and was in line for a cap until he got injured and he missed the 6 Nations.

Then he was brought to New Zealand. I think he should have played more down there but he was in form as a 7 and Sean O'Brien is our first-choice openside so there's not really a huge complaint from me. Kevin McLoughlin played well anyway and justified his selection.

goreyguy · 08-11-2012 11:18am

Fishooks12 wrote: »

why? McCarthy is in good form and Ryan is Ireland's best lock next to POC.

Are we gone to the point now where people are really so gushing to exaggerate a perfectly reasonable second row selection? You probably wouldn't have believed your eyes no matter who was selected. Maybe just get behind the team now that it's named and check the faux outrage at the door........

i'm happy about it, more surprised Kidney picked it than anything else.

Shelflife · 08-11-2012 11:23am

Has Zebo played at full back before?

.ak · 08-11-2012 11:23am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

People who want Earls to play 15... What sort of game do you think we should be playing to try and beat the Springboks? Bearing in mind the team they've selected and the way they've played recently.

Well, before going into game tactics, doesn't Earls have the same attributes as Zebo? Great under high ball, great open space runner, speedster, great boot, etc.

The only difference is Earls has had experience at 15 (his best performance in a green shirt imo).

I know what you're getting at though, as if we play Cave at 13 we'll be playing a different game plan all together.

For me, the choice of Earls at 13 and Zebo at 15 screams pace pace pace. We'll be looking to run the ball. I don't think SA are the team that'll succumb to that tactic. I also will be very disappointed if these two are picked in their respective positions and we don't play at pace.

The selection of Murray would indicate we're not looking to play at pace.

The team (if it is true) just looks too imbalanced, however exciting the prospects are.

bilston · 08-11-2012 11:25am

Fishooks12 wrote: »

It's this kind of crap that will ruin the thread. What has that got to do with the match at the weekend? Nothing. They both start

I tend to agree, while I'd argue Henry was hard done by in NZ, in hindsight it probably did him no harm to have had limited involvement in that series!

They're both in there now (we're 99% sure they are anyway) and good luck to them both. I was looking at one of the training pics yesterday and POM looks to have bulked up a bit more. He gets his chance at 6 which i think is his best position, Henry gets a run at 7 which has become his best position and Heaslip is at 8 skippering the side. While we'll clearly miss Fez and SOB that's an unusually balanced back row selection for Ireland!

.ak · 08-11-2012 11:25am

Shelflife wrote: »

Has Zebo played at full back before?

Never, AFAIK.

cp · 08-11-2012 11:26am

Kevin McLaughlin would give the kind of physicality and work-rate required for an arm wrestle with this week’s visitors, whereas switching Peter O’Mahony to blindside to accommodate Chris Henry, whom the coaching staff have always been sweet on, would augment the breakdown work of Heaslip and Strauss.

I normally refrain from criticizing our press who have a difficult job balancing the need to secure access to players, management, with the need to be objective and insightful, but this is getting ridiculous now.

There are several problems with this piece in general, but this statement in particular got my ire up.

Firstly: "Switching Peter O'Mahony from 7".. What exactly is the criteria for declaring O'Mahony is the incumbent 7 here?? He's played there ONCE this year. He is blatantly NOT a 7.

Secondly: "Chris Henry, whom the coaching staff have always been sweet on"... has gotten exactly TWO caps under Kidney. Two.

patently clear that Geobbels has the team by now. He usually does, and everyone knows that. But the shameless schilling for kidneys pet selections is enough to make you cry.

Tox56 · 08-11-2012 11:27am

I guess that suggests if Ferris had been fit POM would have played 7

bilston · 08-11-2012 11:29am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It makes a bit of sense in fairness.

Henry had a great season in 2008/2009 as a no. 8 but he was pretty inexperienced and so he went and played in the Churchill Cup (with the likes of Healy). He was excellent there as well.

He returned to Ulster and everyone was really excited for him but his form dropped off a cliff until last season. So it's completely understandable he wasn't capped during that period.

Then last season he started to play brilliantly again (starting to really turn heads when Clermont came to Ravenhill in November). He was doing excellently and was in line for a cap until he got injured and he missed the 6 Nations.

Then he was brought to New Zealand. I think he should have played more down there but he was in form as a 7 and Sean O'Brien is our first-choice openside so there's not really a huge complaint from me. Kevin McLoughlin played well anyway and justified his selection.

Just on Henry his form did drop off a bit a couple of years ago but I believe it coincided with the passing of his father...I'm not making excuses for him but you can imagine that would have affected him.

He was hard done by in NZ though, not in being behind SOB obviously but in being behind O'Mahony and McLaughlin. Whether McLaughlin justified his selection or not is a moot point in the sense that Henry never got a chance to justify his selection. But as I said if Saturday is the start of Henry's test career proper (whether in the team or as back up to O'Brien) then I doubt anyone will be thinking about the NZ tour in two or three years time.

danthefan · 08-11-2012 11:32am

bilston wrote: »

Just on Henry his form did drop off a bit a couple of years ago but I believe it coincided with the passing of his father...I'm not making excuses for him but you can imagine that would have affected him.

He was hard done by in NZ though, not in being behind SOB obviously but in being behind O'Mahony and McLaughlin. Whether McLaughlin justified his selection or not is a moot point in the sense that Henry never got a chance to justify his selection. But as I said if Saturday is the start of Henry's test career proper (whether in the team or as back up to O'Brien) then I doubt anyone will be thinking about the NZ tour in two or three years time.

McLaughlin and Henry don't play in the same position. They're completely different players.

bilston · 08-11-2012 11:36am

danthefan wrote: »

McLaughlin and Henry don't play in the same position. They're completely different players.

I was thinking more of the bench spot, but in fairness I can't even remember the line ups for the summer tests and my point about McLaughlin was more in response to Buccs who suggested he had been picked ahead of Henry...so there...

irishbucsfan · 08-11-2012 11:36am

Interesting I don't think Earls and Zebo have the same attributes at all. Zebo has a better kicking game, a lot better actually IMO

The selection of Earls and Zebo is, to me, about shortening the phases and giving us an outlet for possession. The opposite of running the ball. Running the ball would be more exciting to watch but we don't have the forwards to prevent turnovers and so it could well be suicide. Look at the South African team. Their big weakness is the kicking game. Kitchener and Lambie should be targeted, put the pressure on them. Get the ball in the air and get Trimble, Bowe and Zebo (and to a lesser extent Earls) chasing it and targeting their back 3. That's what I want to see.

Whether or not Zebo is up to that I have no idea but I'm excited to find out. I'd be fairly sure Earls wouldn't be, I've never been anywhere near convinced by him in that position... 13 is definitely where he's going to help us the most in the long term. Zebo may be an atrocious 15 but hopefully the coaches have seen enough to suggest he isn't.

Tox56 · 08-11-2012 11:38am

Just looking at the article in the Indo and their suggestions for the centre are: Earls, D'Arcy, Bowe/McFadden

No mention of Cave anywhere, is he carrying an injury or something we don't know about? I find it hard to believe he is behind Bowe or McFadden in the pecking order.

Quint2010 · 08-11-2012 11:42am

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Zebo Bowe Earls DArcy Trimble Sexton Murray; Healy Strauss Ross Ryan McCarthy O'Mahony Heaslip (c). Kilcoyne and Henderson on bench

Peter O Reilly just tweeted

One would assume ROG is now on the bench. But apart from that it's the strongest team we have IMO

Happy enough with that team apart from Murray. Delighted to see McCarthy at second row and Kilcoyne on the bench ahead of Court. I have never rated Court. Great for Henderson too. Well done Kidney

Seph503 · 08-11-2012 11:43am

If that was the team I'd be quite happy. Even if it is mostly injury enforced at least we'll get to see a (slightly) different Ireland take the field.

Fingers crossed they do themselves proud.

Winters · 08-11-2012 11:53am

Tox56 wrote: »

Just looking at the article in the Indo and their suggestions for the centre are: Earls, D'Arcy, Bowe/McFadden

No mention of Cave anywhere, is he carrying an injury or something we don't know about? I find it hard to believe he is behind Bowe or McFadden in the pecking order.

If Cave isn't starting then McFadden will get the nod over him on the bench due to his versatility and national team experience.

artvandelay48 · 08-11-2012 11:56am

Is McFadden injured? I would have thought that he would be better at 13 so that Earls could move to 15 since at least he has some experience there. I think McFadden's looked pretty sharp so far this year

Winters · 08-11-2012 11:59am

McFadden can cover 11, 12 (His best position), 13 and 14 but in my opinion Earls is a better 13 than Ferg.

Tox56 · 08-11-2012 12:03pm

Winters wrote: »

If Cave isn't starting then McFadden will get the nod over him on the bench due to his versatility and national team experience.

I think there's a difference between suggesting someone for the centre and suggesting them for the utility back spot. From what they were saying I presumed they were talking about starting options.

artvandelay48 · 08-11-2012 12:04pm

But surely its not a case of whether earls is better than mcfadden at 13 but rather who is the better 15 earls or zebo? Mcfadden at 13 and earls at 15 have more experience in their positions than zebo at 15. It would mean that trimble would drop to the bench to accommodate zebo but surely it would minimise our positional inexperience.

totallegend · 08-11-2012 12:07pm

Shelflife wrote: »

Has Zebo played at full back before?

Has done at Cork Con, according to Thornley at least. This, apparently, qualifies him as one of the only two choices.

Never mind Ian Madigan, Craig Gilroy and Dave Kearney who played for Ireland u20 at FB and have actually gone on to do so at provincial level, Madigan doing so at Heineken Cup level, as did Keatley.

I think Zebo will do fine, but there's some awful sh*te being talked around his selection.

irishbucsfan · 08-11-2012 12:09pm

I think it'll be a while before McFadden goes anywhere near that Irish 13 jersey.

It would be Cave if not Earls, surely. Zebo is supposedly pretty comfortable with playing 15 and has done so for Cork Con. He just hasn't been tried there for Munster (which is definitely a concern).

irishbucsfan · 08-11-2012 12:11pm

totallegend wrote: »

Has done at Cork Con, according to Thornley at least. This, apparently, qualifies him as one of the only two choices.

Never mind Ian Madigan, Craig Gilroy and Dave Kearney who played for Ireland u20 at FB and have actually gone on to do so at provincial level, Madigan doing so at Heineken Cup level, as did Keatley.

I think Zebo will do fine, but there's some awful sh*te being talked around his selection.

You're making the assumption that Ireland U20 is a higher level than AIL.

Fireball07 · 08-11-2012 12:12pm

Cave is a lot better than McFadden at 13 imo. But McFadden is a better bench option.

So we're assuming it's ROG on the bench, not Jackson? Can't have everything, I suppose.... Can't wait to see what Henderson will be like off the bench

totallegend · 08-11-2012 12:17pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're making the assumption that Ireland U20 is a higher level than AIL.

Not necessarily, but there's 4 named players who have at least played FB at Rabo and/or HC level, which is 100% definitely a higher level than AIL. Yet they never entered Kidney's consciousness when it came to the national team.

Again, because I know people are going to be saying "I told you so" if Zebo plays well, I'm not too worried about Zebo's abilities at FB, just the nonsense way of dressing it up as though the cupboard was bare which it very much is not.

Edit: a) we don't even know how many times Zebo has played there for Cork Con and b) I haven't even mentioned Niall Morris or Robbie Henshaw.

postitnote · 08-11-2012 12:23pm

I've been lurking for a good long while her.

I'm just as interested as the rest of you at who is going to play on Saturday, but is there much point speculating at this point when the team announcement is only 90 mins away.

Sure it's nice to have an opinion and all that, but right now an opinion based on hearsay and rumour is about as useful as a chocolate frying pan.

Plus, some of the comments are kind of sucking the fun out of watching Ireland play on Sat.

I will always cheer them on, regardless of who is playing and regardless of who is in charge.

Save the post mortem for after the match.

Finally, I agree Kidney seems a bit of a goat and incapable of picking his own nose correctly.

I shall continue my lurking and very infrequent posting lest I be shot down.

08-11-2012 12:23pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're making the assumption that Ireland U20 is a higher level than AIL.

it is

Tox56 · 08-11-2012 12:24pm

postitnote wrote: »

I've been lurking for a good long while her.

I'm just as interested as the rest of you at who is going to play on Saturday, but is there much point speculating at this point when the team announcement is only 90 mins away.

Sure it's nice to have an opinion and all that, but right now an opinion based on hearsay and rumour is about as useful as a chocolate frying pan.

Plus, some of the comments are kind of sucking the fun out of watching Ireland play on Sat.

I will always cheer them on, regardless of who is playing and regardless of who is in charge.

Save the post mortem for after the match.

Finally, I agree Kidney seems a bit of a goat and incapable of picking his own nose correctly.

I shall continue my lurking and very infrequent posting lest I be shot down.

I would be amazed if many here thought differently.

geekington · 08-11-2012 12:25pm

As much as I'd love to see us runnnig the ball from all over the pitch, the best running team on the planet (NZ) struggled to break from fee from the SA stranglehold in the games in the championship!

If SA had a kicker they would have won the home game easily!

NZ won the game by keeping it tight and playing off first phase ball!

Should be very interesting..

Fireball07 · 08-11-2012 12:28pm

totallegend wrote: »

Has done at Cork Con, according to Thornley at least. This, apparently, qualifies him as one of the only two choices.

Never mind Ian Madigan, Craig Gilroy and Dave Kearney who played for Ireland u20 at FB and have actually gone on to do so at provincial level, Madigan doing so at Heineken Cup level, as did Keatley.

I think Zebo will do fine, but there's some awful sh*te being talked around his selection.

We don't actually know whether Kidney considered them though. And the likes of Earls, Hurley, Jones, Bowe have all done so too. So has Johne Murphy!

It's not something I'd have done but Zebo could be a great full-back. Can we at least wait to see how he does before we criticise him for it?

irishbucsfan · 08-11-2012 12:30pm

totallegend wrote: »

Not necessarily, but there's 4 named players who have at least played FB at Rabo and/or HC level, which is 100% definitely a higher level than AIL. Yet they never entered Kidney's consciousness when it came to the national team.

Again, because I know people are going to be saying "I told you so" if Zebo plays well, I'm not too worried about Zebo's abilities at FB, just the nonsense way of dressing it up as though the cupboard was bare which it very much is not.

Edit: a) we don't even know how many times Zebo has played there for Cork Con and b) I haven't even mentioned Niall Morris or Robbie Henshaw.

You don't know that they haven't entered his consciousness. Of course they did. He has made the decision to start Zebo.

Madigan and Keatley would be very poor selections at 15 (they can't get up the field vertically, I don't think they'd suit what I think we're going to try to do).

Craig Gilroy hasn't started at 15 for Ulster. He's in the exact same camp as Zebo there. His kicking game is one of his flaws IMO, last year some of his kicking was very dodgy.

I have no idea about Henshaw. It's very hard to say how he'd compare. Maybe he'd be able for it, maybe not. He's extremely inexperienced and I haven't seen much of him.

I'd like to see Niall Morris involved. Definitely. Unfortunately he's overseas. I think if he was still with Leinster he'd be starting for Ireland this weekend.

Where is your source saying that no one else entered Kidneys consciousness? Seems a bit unrealistic to me.

postitnote · 08-11-2012 12:35pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I would be amazed if many here thought differently.

Granted it's a minority, but sometimes it does feel like there are people here would like to see every facet of our game picked apart on saturday and be on the end of another 60-0.

Maybe i'm being too cynical. Or maybe it's my leaving this thread for a day or two and coming back to wade through a dozen pages of hearsay and opinion that just gets me down.

Please don't anybody stop it though, I enjoy the heated debates without ploughing in with my own opinions. Guess i'm a masochist. Guess we all are.

geekington · 08-11-2012 12:35pm

While Zebo to FB wouldn't have been my call, I'm actually looking forward to see how he goes. No one can deny has a spark and can create something.

It will be a massive test of his character if he drops a few early balls under pressure... could be the making of him in the long run though if all goes well!

Fireball07 · 08-11-2012 12:39pm

I'd be shocked if he drops a few high balls, considering that is a real strength of his.

I'd be more worried about him not being in the right place and leaving massive spaces for SA to exploit. The likes of Bowe will have to guide him through the game a bit... and I'd be shocked if SA didn't try to pressurise him an awful lot- a guy playing his first ever senior game at 15 in a big international match looks like an easy target.

.ak · 08-11-2012 12:40pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Just looking at the article in the Indo and their suggestions for the centre are: Earls, D'Arcy, Bowe/McFadden

No mention of Cave anywhere, is he carrying an injury or something we don't know about? I find it hard to believe he is behind Bowe or McFadden in the pecking order.

It's the Indo.

irishbucsfan · 08-11-2012 12:40pm

Fireball07 wrote: »

I'd be shocked if he drops a few high balls, considering that is a real strength of his.

I'd be more worried about him not being in the right place and leaving massive spaces for SA to exploit. The likes of Bowe will have to guide him through the game a bit... and I'd be shocked if SA didn't try to pressurise him an awful lot- a guy playing his first ever senior game at 15 in a big international match looks like an easy target.

But which Saffer is going to be able to exploit him? If Steyn was starting I'd be worried about that, but he's not.

phone2000 · 08-11-2012 12:41pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You don't know that they haven't entered his consciousness. Of course they did. He has made the decision to start Zebo.

Madigan and Keatley would be very poor selections at 15 (they can't get up the field vertically, I don't think they'd suit what I think we're going to try to do).

Craig Gilroy hasn't started at 15 for Ulster. He's in the exact same camp as Zebo there. His kicking game is one of his flaws IMO, last year some of his kicking was very dodgy.

I have no idea about Henshaw. It's very hard to say how he'd compare. Maybe he'd be able for it, maybe not. He's extremely inexperienced and I haven't seen much of him.

I'd like to see Niall Morris involved. Definitely. Unfortunately he's overseas. I think if he was still with Leinster he'd be starting for Ireland this weekend.

Where is your source saying that no one else entered Kidneys consciousness? Seems a bit unrealistic to me.

Agreed, regular starter for a decent Leicester Team, the only issue might be that he's playing left/right wing at the moment. Natural full back though, surely worth a call up for the Fiji game?

Fireball07 · 08-11-2012 12:43pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But which Saffer is going to be able to exploit him? If Steyn was starting I'd be worried about that, but he's not.

If either Pienaar or Lambie see big spaces in behind, I'm sure they are well capable of putting the ball in the right place and their back 3 all have enough pace to cause damage.

.ak · 08-11-2012 12:45pm

It'll do no harm, learning his graft from Murphy, but I hope at some point Morris moves to a team more orientated with running rugby soon. He gets a little lost at Leicester imo.

08-11-2012 12:46pm

meh, very happy to give Zebo a lot of leeway for positional issues defensively.

Going to hope to see him taking some nice lines going forward tbh.

He's not a FB now, but it might work out eventually. There's a lot to his game that can be really impressive at FB (broken game reading, pace, lines from deep etc). If he scores a few more than he concedes that's grand in my book. He'll tighten the defensive side of stuff with time.

geekington · 08-11-2012 12:47pm

Good point, never played full back so not good the best idea of what if required positionally!

Thank God it looks like it will be dry, I just feel that it will really benefit the game and at least allow us to utilise some of our skill sets rather than just playnig the conditions!

08-11-2012 12:47pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But which Saffer is going to be able to exploit him? If Steyn was starting I'd be worried about that, but he's not.

listen to the interview with SA coach on Off the Ball last night.

He said "kick" about 14 times in 40 seconds. Lambie is being picked to kick.

bilston · 08-11-2012 12:50pm

Zebo could be an inspired selection at 15. He has all the attributes for it anyway. What we don't know is his positional sense. Hopefully Bowe and Trimble keep him right. Bowe in particular needs to take on a leadership role in the backline now with BOD and Kearney missing.

08-11-2012 12:56pm

Thornley on OfftheBall is poison.

What has happened to him!?

goreyguy · 08-11-2012 1:04pm

Thornley has lost the plot, he will defend Kidney to the end.

justsomebloke · 08-11-2012 1:07pm

Not sure if it's been said but the Team announcement should be stramed live here from 12.45. i.e. just in time to spoil your lunch appetite

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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