Bio based foam insulation

Fingallion · 19-10-2009 5:22pm

I know it is an old thread but I think it is funny to hear people suggest that the US might have milder climatic conditions than Ireland. I have returned after living 14 years in the Northeast and the Midwest (chicago) and i can tell you that there is no weather in ireland that is not experienced in these areas. Driving rain, damp, freezing beyond any comprehension in ireland. heavy snow, ice rain (does not occur in Ireland), real storms, not the easy stuff here. Artic in winter, tropical in summer to be honest.

Anyway, we had a brick house in Chicago and had all the fiberglass insulation removed and replaced where possible by closed cell foam about 100mm thick. The improvement was palpable. The place was tight as a drum and basically weatherproof. I imagine that any standards there are eventually adopted here in ireland. House building here is pretty primitive historically. Insulation has been used commonplace in the US since the turn of the 20th century.

sydthebeat · 19-10-2009 5:58pm

Fingallion wrote: »

I know it is an old thread but I think it is funny to hear people suggest that the US might have milder climatic conditions than Ireland. I have returned after living 14 years in the Northeast and the Midwest (chicago) and i can tell you that there is no weather in ireland that is not experienced in these areas. Driving rain, damp, freezing beyond any comprehension in ireland. heavy snow, ice rain (does not occur in Ireland), real storms, not the easy stuff here. Artic in winter, tropical in summer to be honest.

Anyway, we had a brick house in Chicago and had all the fiberglass insulation removed and replaced where possible by closed cell foam about 100mm thick. The improvement was palpable. The place was tight as a drum and basically weatherproof. I imagine that any standards there are eventually adopted here in ireland. House building here is pretty primitive historically. Insulation has been used commonplace in the US since the turn of the 20th century.

whos suggesting ireland has a 'milder' climate???

ireland actually has less temperature fluctuations than the us...

but our climate is noticeably more humid....

Fingallion · 20-10-2009 10:43am

The relative humidity in Ireland ranges from 73 to 83% in dublin. In Chicago it ranges from 78% to 86%(Seattle, Savannah, New orleans, etc would be way worse). Some places like the Seattle are earily similar to Ireland and much damper. I just think it is worth considering a product that has been embraced in the US for decades. I know you have not quite suggested climate being 'milder' in the US but you have suggested that humidity is lower .... and therefore not comparable.... not true. Anyway, i am being a little pedantic probably. I am looking at insulating a very cold damp house in North County Dublin and I am very tempted to go the spray foam route as I had great success in my old house in Chicago. I wonder about standards and certifications in Ireland and their actual impact on my life, I find it hard to believe that money and politics and lobbys are not involved somehow. I feel that the building construction has been of low standard here in general vs most 1st world countries in anycase so I am willing to utilise accepted practices from other countries.

gman2k · 20-10-2009 11:22am

Fingallion wrote: »

I wonder about standards and certifications in Ireland and their actual impact on my life, I find it hard to believe that money and politics and lobbys are not involved somehow. I feel that the building construction has been of low standard here in general vs most 1st world countries in anycase so I am willing to utilise accepted practices from other countries.

Bio-based spray insulation is now certified in Ireland by the BRE.

'BioBased 501s Spray Foam Insulation has been awarded independent Certification - Number 151/09 by the BRE (Building Research Establishment). The certificate provides is an independent third party confirmation that the characteristics of BioBased Insulation and its method of application comply with all the key requirements of Irish, UK and European current building regulations.'

sydthebeat · 20-10-2009 12:03pm

Chicago has a cold and dry climate with large seasonal fluctuations in temperature and humidity
Dublin is mostly cool with moderate humidity levels and moderate fluctuations in temperature and humidity.

It doesnt deal with my main concerns about this product. I consider it a very good product, but like all 'new' products i will question its claims until they are proven by certification.

It is now apparent that spray foam insulation has roughly the same themal conductivity as fibreglass / rockwool. A large claim by producers of this product is that it improves the air infiltration factor of some builds. Thats fine, they can claim what they want, but until independent accredited study is carried out to prove these claims than all they are is sales speak.
I do not buy the "have been used in the US for decades" argument as sufficient to accept these products open armed into irish construction systems. The fact alone that some installers are selling this to clients as an alternative method to fill cavity walls is proof alone that there are unscrupulous persons in the market.

Fingallion wrote: »

The relative humidity in Ireland ranges from 73 to 83% in dublin. In Chicago it ranges from 78% to 86%(Seattle, Savannah, New orleans, etc would be way worse). Some places like the Seattle are earily similar to Ireland and much damper. I just think it is worth considering a product that has been embraced in the US for decades. I know you have not quite suggested climate being 'milder' in the US but you have suggested that humidity is lower .... and therefore not comparable.... not true. Anyway, i am being a little pedantic probably. I am looking at insulating a very cold damp house in North County Dublin and I am very tempted to go the spray foam route as I had great success in my old house in Chicago. I wonder about standards and certifications in Ireland and their actual impact on my life, I find it hard to believe that money and politics and lobbys are not involved somehow. I feel that the building construction has been of low standard here in general vs most 1st world countries in anycase so I am willing to utilise accepted practices from other countries.

gman2k · 20-10-2009 1:24pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

It doesnt deal with my main concerns about this product. I consider it a very good product, but like all 'new' products i will question its claims until they are proven by certification.

Certification

Is this certification good enough?

ardara1 · 20-10-2009 1:42pm

gman2k wrote: »

Certification

Is this certification good enough?

I see it satisfies Building Regulations Ireland Part L 1997 - up-to-date then!

RKQ · 20-10-2009 2:07pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

I consider it a very good product, but like all 'new' products i will question its claims until they are proven by certification.

A large claim by producers of this product is that it improves the air infiltration factor of some builds. Thats fine, they can claim what they want, but until independent accredited study is carried out to prove these claims than all they are is sales speak.

I do not buy the "have been used in the US for decades" argument as sufficient to accept these products open armed into irish construction systems.

I'd have to agree Syd.... Very well said.
Certification by Agg Board is expensive for the manufacturer but it is an independent test that the consumer can rely on.

Its not a perfect system but it does work. We haven't had a major structural / material failure in this country. (Unlike Canada, USA and Austrailia - faulty material / method cost millions to rectify.)

gman2k · 20-10-2009 3:30pm

RKQ wrote: »

...Certification by Agg Board is expensive for the manufacturer but it is an independent test that the consumer can rely on.

So........ this product has BRE certification - for use in this country! And the consumer can rely on it!

RKQ · 20-10-2009 3:53pm

gman2k wrote: »

So........ this product has BRE certification - for use in this country! And the consumer can rely on it!

That depends.....
I didn't mention BRE, as my post was about foreign methods of construction and Irish Aggregate Board Certification.

The BRE is one of many European Certification Boards. (personally I think highly of it and agree it is similar to our own Certification Board.)

I do not think that BRE certify products for use in Ireland! Why would they?:D

sydthebeat · 20-10-2009 4:32pm

gman2k wrote: »

So........ this product has BRE certification - for use in this country! And the consumer can rely on it!

the bre certification doesnt tell us anything we didnt know already...

there already is an IAB cert for one particular product anyway....

what the IAB certand teh BRE cert doesnt tell us, tthe sales person are STILL claiming...

sinnerboy · 21-10-2009 12:21am

RKQ wrote: »

I do not think that BRE certify products for use in Ireland! Why would they?:D

Yes they do . The cert expressly states so .

They have a formal presence here

http://www.breireland.ie/

RKQ · 21-10-2009 11:01am

You live and learn!

British Research Establishment Ireland has an interesting ring to it.

I do hope the French, German, Italian and Polish Certification / Research bodies etc decide to come to Ireland.

Maybe eventually we will have one European body.:rolleyes:

Back on topic - many foam based products have an IAB cert or are in the process of getting one. This is important as it states the product does what "it says on the tin".

NSA do carry out spot checks on installers, to ensure the product is propertly installed, in accordance with its IAB cert.

This part of IAB certification was discussed in detail by my old friend Duncan on "About the House" last night.

In summary I feel it is important to use a certified product. It makes sense.

sinnerboy · 21-10-2009 11:15am

RKQ wrote: »

You live and learn!

British Research Establishment Ireland has an interesting ring to it.

.

The "B" stands for Building

sas · 21-10-2009 11:37am

RKQ wrote: »

This part of IAB certification was discussed in detail by my old friend Duncan on "About the House" last night.

Off topic but what I thought was particularly amusing about that is Duncan and the NSAI chap were standing infront of a house being externally insulated in a material not covered by the IAB cert for that system. That inspires confidence....

sydthebeat · 21-10-2009 12:31pm

sas wrote: »

Off topic but what I thought was particularly amusing about that is Duncan and the NSAI chap were standing infront of a house being externally insulated in a material not covered by the IAB cert for that system. That inspires confidence....

oh, the irony....

RKQ · 21-10-2009 12:51pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

The "B" stands for Building

True... well spotted:D

sinnerboy · 21-10-2009 1:11pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

oh, the irony....

irony implies the unexpected ...... ( pedantic sinner :pac: )

Toplink · 23-08-2010 8:24am

Can this foam insulation be sprayed directly into a pitched roof area?

My house was built in 1980's with the old type felt being used in the roof. I have seen the IAB Cert for the product but I am still confused as to its use in an older house. Can it be srpayed directly onto this type of felt? Is there breathability issues?

gman2k · 23-08-2010 8:29am

Toplink wrote: »

Can this foam insulation be sprayed directly into a pitched roof area?

My house was built in 1980's with the old type felt being used in the roof. I have seen the IAB Cert for the product but I am still confused as to its use in an older house. Can it be srpayed directly onto this type of felt? Is there breathability issues?

No it can only be used on a breathable membrane.

bartbu · 18-09-2014 7:44pm

Could anyone give me advice on how best to insulate attic of my new build. Looking at icynene v bio foam v metac and knauf mineral wool. Going round in circles.
Breathable felt. Not counter battoned. 150 m m rafter depth. I propose to use insulated board also. Attic space will be used as dwelling.
Huge thanks for any advice.....

Bio based foam insulation

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