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N25/N30 - New Ross Bypass [open to traffic]

13567…57

Comments

  • #102
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I thought there was a missing link in Kilkenny but the missing link is not hideously substandard S2 (from memory) and is around 6 or 7 km long at most.

    Can it be retrofitted as 2+2 between the Waterford Bypass and New Ross bypass schemes??

    One of the options still under consideration seems to be some minor realignments of the existing N25 to avoid having to CPO some houses.


  • #103
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Considering this bypass will only be D2AP it's surprisingly expensive. Good to see movement on it though.
    The timetable is looking like:
    2013 M11 Wicklow/Newlands Cross
    2014 M17/M18
    2015 New Ross
    2016 Enniscorthy?


  • #104
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Considering this bypass will only be D2AP it's surprisingly expensive.

    Not really, since it includes land acquisition costs. It's roughly equivalent to what they expect the current version of GCOB will be (if it ever goes ahead). Bear in mind that while it's only 16km of roadway there is a 900m bridge involved, so I'd imagine that's where the expense will be.


  • #105
    Quickelles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 378 ✭✭Quickelles


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Considering this bypass will only be D2AP it's surprisingly expensive. Good to see movement on it though.
    The timetable is looking like:
    2013 M11 Wicklow/Newlands Cross
    2014 M17/M18
    2015 New Ross
    2016 Enniscorthy?

    Minister for Public Expenditure Brendan Howlin.

    Could there be a connection to the fact that 3 out of the only four possible major schemes that might go ahead in the next four years are in, or serve, Wexford?


  • #106
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Quickelles wrote: »
    Minister for Public Expenditure Brendan Howlin.

    Could there be a connection to the fact that 3 out of the only four possible major schemes that might go ahead in the next four years are in, or serve, Wexford?

    It has been done to death, but the priority of those projects pre-date the current government.

    Besides the minster with say so over all this is a Dub.


  • #107
    Aquarius34
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Considering this bypass will only be D2AP it's surprisingly expensive. Good to see movement on it though.
    The timetable is looking like:
    2013 M11 Wicklow/Newlands Cross
    2014 M17/M18
    2015 New Ross
    2016 Enniscorthy?

    We already have a glorified motorway already built to Serve the SE. It's no surprise that roads to the South an Southwest are still largely ignored again. Planning in this country is a shambles. All roads lead to Dublin as usual and the N11 now been the focus this is nothing new. Why can't people see that we are not learning from this. Look at France they've spent the last 20 years trying to integrate their motorway network to connect with all it's secondary cities rather than building all routes to and from Paris. France is not a great role model, but the least we can do is learn from their mistakes and learn from other countries.

    The Limerick Cork route along with the Tuam-Galway corridor needs to go ahead before the N11. The N11 has seen massive upgrades in the last 10 years and it serves much smaller population catchements than other routes. Other routes need upgrading and priority.

    Traffic on the N18 just north of the Gort scheme is peaking 15,000 a day. Traffic at Croom and Adare average around the same also. These roads are major mishaps on our road network.


  • #108
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Limerick Cork is more important than Enniscorthy. :)

    However only the southern half of that particular scheme can realistically be shoehorned in before Enniscorthy. It is realistic to activate and plan and build it before Enniscorthy.


  • #109
    jd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,709 ✭✭✭jd


    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    Planning in this country is a shambles. All roads lead to Dublin as usual and the N11 now been the focus this is nothing new.
    ..
    The Limerick Cork route along with the Tuam-Galway corridor needs to go ahead before the N11. The N11 has seen massive upgrades in the last 10 years and it serves much smaller population catchements than other routes. Other routes need upgrading and priority.
    ..
    Traffic on the N18 just north of the Gort scheme is peaking 15,000 a day. Traffic at Croom and Adare average around the same also. These roads are major mishaps on our road network.
    Whatever about the schemes in Wexford, the N11 "gap" (Arklow - Rathnew) is ready to go and should have been done long ago. It's dangerous and has traffic volumes of > 20k a day during the summer.
    http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N11-17.htm


  • #110
    Aquarius34
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Limerick Cork is more important than Enniscorthy. :)

    However only the southern half of that particular scheme can realistically be shoehorned in before Enniscorthy. It is realistic to activate and plan and build it before Enniscorthy.

    What Enniscorthy needs really is a relief road for the time being, ideally it needs a bypass but with the M9 built now, a lot of traffic will use the M9 for through traffic rather than go towards Enniscorthy. Traffic dies down considerably after Enniscorthy too.


  • #111
    Quickelles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 378 ✭✭Quickelles


    Aquarius34 wrote: »

    ......the Tuam-Galway corridor needs to go ahead before the N11. The N11 has seen massive upgrades in the last 10 years and it serves much smaller population catchements than other routes. Other routes need upgrading and priority.

    Traffic on the N18 just north of the Gort scheme is peaking 15,000 a day. Traffic at Croom and Adare average around the same also. These roads are major mishaps on our road network.

    Does the "missing link" between Rathnew and Arklow not have much higher usage than that? And much more fatal accidents?


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  • #112
    fricatus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    Quickelles wrote: »
    Does the "missing link" between Rathnew and Arklow not have much higher usage than that? And much more fatal accidents?

    Yes, the traffic count is around 20,000:

    http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N11-17.htm

    As regards New Ross, there are no counts for the bridge there, but the N25 at Glenmore is probably the best proxy, and the counts there are around 11,000 a day. Of course that only tells you part of the story. I hear regular tales of 2km tailbacks and 30 minute delays going into New Ross from Waterford most evenings, so there's no doubt that's a necessary bypass - particularly when you consider that all the HGVs going from Cork, Limerick and Waterford to Rosslare get held up there.


  • #113
    Aquarius34
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    Quickelles wrote: »
    Does the "missing link" between Rathnew and Arklow not have much higher usage than that? And much more fatal accidents?

    The Naas bypass has higher traffic volumes and needs to be upgraded too, this isn't the argument here. It's not always about higher traffic levels when it comes to prioritizing what roads need to be upgraded, there are other factors involved.. The fact is the N11 has seen massive upgrades along with the M9 and both roads serve the SE and there are other schemes neglected and do need upgrades also. I am not against the N11 been upgraded I just cannot understand why the likes of the N20 and N18/N17/N21 roads keep been pushed under the back burner.


  • #114
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    The Naas bypass has higher traffic volumes and needs to be upgraded. It's not always about higher traffic levels. The fact is the N11 has seen massive upgrades along with the M9 and both roads serve the SE and there are other schemes neglected and do need upgrades also. I am not against the N11 been upgraded I just cannot understand why the likes of the N20 and N18/N17/N21 roads keep been pushed under the back burner.

    It's quite simple - Enniscorthy will help complete a national route, whereas M20 & N21 will start one.

    New Ross is a major bottleneck, taking as long if not longer to navigate as either Claregawlay or Adare, so deserves to be on the same level as N17/18 (in fact it is behind it because M17/18 is shovel ready, New Ross has planning but has not started the "design" phase).

    Then there's the added bonus that both help connectivity to Rosslare port - which is realistically more important for freight than access to Shannon, large items being prohibitively expensive to transport by air.


  • #115
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    antoobrien wrote: »
    It's quite simple - Enniscorthy will help complete a national route, whereas M20 & N21 will start one.
    If nothing else, wouldn't it be better to build roads for the areas that need it most rather than extend the length of motorway towards Wexford when there will be a motorway from Gorey northwards in a couple of years time? I'm talking about the M11 Enniscorthy scheme here. Any kind of road improvement between the second and largest cities in the state really need to be looked at as a matter of priority:(

    I agree the New Ross bypass is neeed in the near future though. That's a strategic part of the road network.


  • #116
    Aquarius34
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    antoobrien wrote: »
    It's quite simple - Enniscorthy will help complete a national route, whereas M20 & N21 will start one.
    And that is your argument? :rolleyes: Sure if that's the case so, then we may as well not bother building road projects at all and just focus on improving current roads. I can't even believe I am reading this.
    New Ross is a major bottleneck, taking as long if not longer to navigate as either Claregawlay or Adare, so deserves to be on the same level as N17/18 (in fact it is behind it because M17/18 is shovel ready, New Ross has planning but has not started the "design" phase).
    New Ross is a bottleneck because it's on a major river crossing. Claregalway and Adare have much higher traffic levels and encounter several mlle tailbacks on busy periods. Adare and Claregalway also have a large amount of H.G.V trundling through their villages. For such small settlements it suffers from chronic traffic congestion and that is unacceptable. I understand that New Ross needs a bypass, but ther reality is other routes are severely been neglected at the expense of favoritism and political shoe picking.
    Then there's the added bonus that both help connectivity to Rosslare port - which is realistically more important for freight than access to Shannon, large items being prohibitively expensive to transport by air.

    Adare and Claregalway are on routes that connect to Foynes port, Galway port, and Cork port. It also connects to Shannon Airport and Cork Airport. It is also the western Corridor that connects most of Irelands major cities on the western seaboard.


  • #117
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    The trouble is this.

    Claregalways is presumed bypassed as part of the M17/18 scheme so they cant build the also planned relief road until that is done or else the case for the M17/18 is reduced.

    Adare was to be done as part of the M20 north scheme (as it connected physically with it) but since that has been postponed they are now having to de-couple Adare and replan it.

    New Ross was not really part of anything (apart from a PPP with a road 30 miles away), so can go ahead far more easily than the bypasses or relief roads for the others.

    I've said for ages that the scale of this bridge is absolutely ridiculous, but thats another argument. I do really want to drive on this bridge though, it'll be Ireland longest in every respect AFAIK and will be quite impressive.


  • #118
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    And that is your argument? :rolleyes: Sure if that's the case so, then we may as well not bother building road projects at all and just focus on improving current roads. I can't even believe I am reading this.

    No that's not my argument, that's the reasoning as to why it's more important. But my opinion is that from a strategic point of view it is currently more important than anything going near Foynes or Shannon.
    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    Claregalway and Adare have much higher traffic levels and encounter several mlle tailbacks on busy periods.

    Yeah, so does new ross.
    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    Adare and Claregalway also have a large amount of H.G.V trundling through their villages.

    Claregalway is on the N17, North of Galway city. It's easier to get from Mayo to Dublin than Foynes so that makes Claregalway a local issue. Adare is on a tourist route, the only reason it's so busy is commuter traffic,a s bourne out by the HGV figures, which are lower for both the N17 & N21 than that of the N25.
    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    For such small settlements it suffers from chronic traffic congestion and that is unacceptable. I understand that New Ross needs a bypass, but ther reality is other routes are severely been neglected at the expense of favoritism and political shoe picking.

    Haven't you heard, Claregawlay is getting two bypasses. But then you know nothing of Galway, so I'd expect that.

    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    Adare and Claregalway are on routes that connect to Foynes port, Galway port, and Cork port. It also connects to Shannon Airport and Cork Airport. It is also the western Corridor that connects most of Irelands major cities on the western seaboard.

    Claregalway connecting to Foynes, even as someone from Galway I can't defend that as an legitimate argument for the N17, what with it being North of Galway and it being easier to go to Dublin from large parts of the north west than it currently is to get to Galway.

    Adare is not on the N20 and there isn't a whole lot of heavy industry that would be going from Kerry north, so I'd rank connectivity to the ports in Cork as being higher for most of Kerry than one in Limerick.


  • #119
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Nobody can compare New Ross bypass with links to Galway. N25 Rosslare-Waterford is of great economic importance to the south east and Ireland as its links Cork, Waterford and Rosslare ports. Waterford being the second largest port for freight in Ireland. Before the downturn you could be over 1h trying to get through New Ross in the evenings. Most days Gardi took over and replaced the traffic lights to try and get traffic moving. Don't use the route that often but with higher unemployment in the region traffic dropped. The amount of people who missed the ferries from Rosslare is unreal considering it could take 2h+ to travel from Waterford.

    One thing is that the M20 should be next on the list before any other projects but by that time there will be a general election before it gets the go ahead.


  • #120
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    Waterford being the second largest port for freight in Ireland

    Not even close. The CSO figures are here;

    http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/transport/2011/spt_2011.pdf

    Waterford is the 5th biggest cargo port, 6th biggest if you count Bantry Bay (mainly trans-shippment though). Thats about 3% of the national total (Table 10b on Page 16). It does carry over 8% of container traffic though, so nearly half of that dealt with by Cork at 21% (the rest is Dublin). Simply put, for bulk cargo or containers, the South East isn't that important. For roll on/roll off, Rosslare is critical, but even taken together, both ports only deal with about 8% of the national cargo traffic. They're just not that big.

    I can see why those arguing for road investment would emphasise their importance; relatively speaking they are very important to the South East and the road network is entirely substandard. But nationally? Not really. The problem is that there isn't much else there in terms of large settlements or industry, unlike Galway, which has major commuting problems, both within the city and in the wider region. Ultimately, all of these things are needed, but money is tight and priorities have to be set. The GCOB and N17/18 are and should be next. After that, both the N25 updates and the M20/21 (and N28) come into focus.


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  • #121
    Quickelles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 378 ✭✭Quickelles


    New Ross currently blocks both the N30 (SE Dublin - Waterford traffic) as well as the N25. In summer it can take over half an hour to get through the town (or much longer at peak holidays) - certainly when approaching from the N30.

    Given the importance of Rosslare to tourist traffic heading WEST it is surely in the interests of Western/SW tourism to have it prioritised?


  • #122
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    It's in the national and local interest to have it done, certainly, but priority wise it has to sit behind resolving some major congestion problems around the third biggest city in the State.


    Off topic I know, but there's a new Ports Policy that's of relevance. In short, Dublin, Cork and Shannon/Foynes are Tier 1 ports, Waterford and Rosslare are Tier 2. Everything else is a 'port of regional significance'. Sounds like an entirely sensible approach to be, but bound to attract the county jersey lobby.

    http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2013/03/varadkar-announces-plans-for-radical-overhaul-of-ports-sector/


  • #123
    fricatus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    But nationally? Not really. The problem is that there isn't much else there in terms of large settlements or industry, unlike Galway, which has major commuting problems, both within the city and in the wider region. Ultimately, all of these things are needed, but money is tight and priorities have to be set. The GCOB and N17/18 are and should be next. After that, both the N25 updates and the M20/21 (and N28) come into focus.

    Eh, there's Waterford, which is the next largest city in the state after Galway. Sure, the IDA hasn't been quite so good to us lately, but there's still plenty of industry - a lot of which is manufacturing, so more dependent on moving goods around.

    Also, New Ross is every bit as much a commuter bottleneck as somewhere like Claregalway - the queues in the evening are primarily from the Waterford side remember - but the difference is that it's also the last big bottleneck on a major route from the entire south and west to one of our major ferry ports.

    Those things combined, I don't see how someone can argue that getting New Ross bypassed is not a national priority.


  • #124
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    fricatus wrote: »
    Eh, there's Waterford, which is the next largest city in the state after Galway. Sure, the IDA hasn't been quite so good to us lately, but there's still plenty of industry - a lot of which is manufacturing, so more dependent on moving goods around.

    The IDA has been bad for Waterford in the past few years, there has been a drop off in employment, where as Limerick has had a 12% increase to bring it closer to Galway in employment terms (I don't think anyone would have said that 10 years ago) but still a few hundred jobs shy of Galway.
    fricatus wrote: »
    Also, New Ross is every bit as much a commuter bottleneck as somewhere like Claregalway - the queues in the evening are primarily from the Waterford side remember - but the difference is that it's also the last big bottleneck on a major route from the entire south and west to one of our major ferry ports.

    Those things combined, I don't see how someone can argue that getting New Ross bypassed is not a national priority.

    I agree completely New Ross is as big a problem locally as Claregalway is in Galway. I also agree that it is an national priority, the only question is where does it rank.

    My theory is that it ranks 3rd because it is not as serious a problem, either in scale or quality, as the two projects that are "shovel ready". I don't think anybody really needs to explain why the NX/M11 bundle is needed, I will explain why I think the M17/18 project is higher on the list than New Ross.

    Galway has a second large (if not as high profile) problem with traffic, the traffic approaching Clarinbridge on the N18 (about 2 miles from Oranmore) is often chronic due to nothing more than the fact that it is a rural village and turning right holds up traffic (pretty much the same problem as New Ross has). Small tailbacks are not unusual if there is any reasonable level of traffic on the road, if there's a large amount of traffic it often backs up to Oranmore. Add to that the fact that the state of the N18 makes Dublin airport a more reasonable option than Shannon - despite the fact that it's twice as far away - makes the N18 a very serious problem.

    The traffic flow for Claregalway is 20,738, with at least half of this going into Galway city along the N17. The N18 has significant levels of traffic, though there are no counters available north of Gort where the AADTs are about 8,904 on the M18. Contrast that with the counters either side of New Ross, 10,608 at Glenmore & 6,547 at Carrigbyrne.


  • #125
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    The CSO put Limerick (all incl suburbs) at 91,454, Galway at 76,778, and Waterford at 51,519 in 2011 - arguably all of a roughly similar order of magnitude, true (if you ignore the fact that Limerick is almost twice the size of Waterford), and all with traffic issues. But Waterford is by far the smallest city in the State, and one of two of these three cities that have relatively recent bypasses (involving a bridge or a tunnel), and one doesn't. That one city that doesn't also has some extremely severe bottlenecks in towns on it's radial routes. Personally, I think it's a no brainer that the city that hasn't yet had a bypass built should be first in line (both for the M17/18 and GCOB).

    I'm not having a go at Waterford or the South-East, just trying to establish some factual basis for the discussion. The region has certainly suffered from under investment in the past (in a great many ways it has been the most neglected part of the State, but it has certainly got it's fair share recently in the M9 and Waterford by-pass. And it's not about the IDA bringing bounty to Waterford, it's more to do with the fact that companies that are presently growing simply don't want to locate there. The city isn't big enough to have the external economies of scale that others offer, and hasn't focussed in those sectors that are growing at present (like Galway). Right now, the jobs are going to Dublin, Cork and Galway, in that order. The curse of the SE has been that there are a relatively large number of mid size settlements scattered about the region (towns like Kilkenny, Carlow, New Ross, Enniscorthy, Wexford - even Clonmel in reality), which have a sizeable population if taken together, but without the synergies and additionality that arises when all of those people live in a single city. Ideally, growth and investment would be focussed on Waterford but the county jersey phenomenon works against that.


  • #126
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    For a start you drop the M9 crap, Galway got the M6. Before Waterford got the bypass there was between 40-50,000 cars, lorries etc passing through the city centre.

    Galway got a rail link to Limerick that nobody wants and is loosing 3.5 million per year but Waterford-Rosslare got closed and it would take 3 years to lose what Galway-Limerick is loosing per year.


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  • #127
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    <snip> The region has certainly suffered from under investment in the past (in a great many ways it has been the most neglected part of the State, but it has certainly got it's fair share recently in the M9 and Waterford by-pass.<snip>
    hard to say that its the most neglected part of the country when you have a situation like Cavan where the last IDA supported investment of mention was in 1977 (Pawels Trafo just for the record).

    The stats would also show that Donegal is the most economically disadvantaged part of the country and unlike Waterford they cannot boast to having a new toll free motorway all the way to the Capital nor a heavily subsidised rail link nor one of the country's main ports (Rosslare) round the corner nor their port on their doorstep almost in the city itsself.

    Waterford is in a great position in so many aspects which makes the sob stories from that corner of the Island sometimes difficult to understand.


  • #128
    MrDerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 991 ✭✭✭MrDerp


    fricatus wrote: »
    Eh, there's Waterford, which is the next largest city in the state after Galway. Sure, the IDA hasn't been quite so good to us lately, but there's still plenty of industry - a lot of which is manufacturing, so more dependent on moving goods around.

    Also, New Ross is every bit as much a commuter bottleneck as somewhere like Claregalway - the queues in the evening are primarily from the Waterford side remember - but the difference is that it's also the last big bottleneck on a major route from the entire south and west to one of our major ferry ports.

    Those things combined, I don't see how someone can argue that getting New Ross bypassed is not a national priority.

    This all goes back to bad planning. Instead of the M8 and the M9 we should have built a complete M11, M20 and M17 and M25. We'd then have a motorway network that looked like a ladder instead of a bicycle wheel

    While I quite like the M24 with M8 stopping in Fermoy idea, the commercial realities of the N20 and N25 corridors out of Cork would have made it a little impractical in terms of existing enterprise. (I'm thinking about Industrial East Cork in particular)

    Cork-Dublin could have been adequately serviced via Limerick on the M20 (and I say that as someone who uses the M8 15-20 times a year), Waterford-Dublin via M25, M11.

    Then you'd be looking at a section of Cork North Ring road to redistribute M25 to M20, and GOCB to N84 and a Claregalway bypass to improve the routes north of Galway. A motorway loop from Galway - Limerick - Cork - Waterford - Rosslare - Dublin - Galway, with Limerick - Dublin bysecting.

    Smart targetted dual carriageway bypasses could then have improved the midlands, and other areas in the long term.

    Too late now. There was too many votes to be won by upgrading all the traditional routes, instead of planning a network. We could be in a position where we were clambering for bypasses of local importance, instead of completing the network.


  • #129
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    Cavan and Donegal are largely rural counties with low population density and with no major city anywhere near them (in this State at least) and with no real tradition of development - it's hardly the IDA's fault that they can't persuade companies to locate there. The same applies to infrastructure spend - it's very difficult to justify when there is so little demand, and so many other areas with more pressing demand for funds. Key point to keep in mind - job creation and economic growth are urban phenomena now, and supporting cities and city regions is critical in terms of the national economy (which creates the wealth to keep the rest of the country going, including the NW). In terms of policy making it's a fallacy to suggest that the Northwest is of the same economic order as the SE; it has a far lower population and smaller industrial base - entirely for reasons of economic geography rather than neglect - not saying that it or the people there don't deserve infrastructure, but that there has to be a prioritisation of spend.

    In any case, no amount of infrastructural spending is going to overcome the fact that these regions are simply not suited for large scale industral development of the type that the IDA bring. On the other hand, the SE could make a more marked contribution to the national economy with better regional planning (if only) and some more infrastructural investment.
    all goes back to bad planning. Instead of the M8 and the M9 we should have built a complete M11, M20 and M17 and M25. We'd then have a motorway network that looked like a ladder instead of a bicycle wheel

    This has come up before - part of the reason behind building the present system was that there are a whole load of towns 'in the middle of Ireland' that could (and did) benefit from Motorway access. Simply drawing lines on the map between cities would ignore the well established urban hierarchy and make the CBA for the entire thing a lot less positive (if one was ever done). And also reduce political support, of course. That said, the system we have now is down to the fact that the M9 was never orginally planned for, but was parish pumped in at a late stage. Had the planners known that this was going to happen, then the 'old' Cork/Dublin route would likely have been adapted, with the M8/M9 diverging south of Kilkenny and the M8 joining the present route (via Clonmel) somewhere south of Cahir. As for the Dublin/Cork road going via Limerick, don't be silly. Bad enough that we've to follow a road marked 'Limerick' and turn off the mainline south of Portlaoise when heading back to Civilisation. The shame!

    (On a serious note, the additional time, fuel and carbon loss associated with that 45km extra would, over 25 years, more than likely negate any cpst saving from building slightly less M-way. Also, your system would be far less robust in case of blockages and accidents, and would need upgrades more quickly)


  • #130
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    The M9 may not of being planned but AFAIK traffic on the route is much higher than projected. It compares well with the M8 levels. Both M8 and M9 have there plan and serve some of the largest population areas in the country. M9/8 going seperate ways South of Kilkenny would make it longer to get to Cork than the current time.

    Looking at the map the M9 could be justified more so than the M8 as it serves Kilkenny/Carlow and Waterford while the M8 largely only serves Cork. Anyway they will all be of good use over the next 10 years. With population projections it will largely be towards the East Coast so the M9 will be of importance more so than the M8 and the likes of the M7 after Portlaoise,

    Now getting back to this threat the N25 New Ross Bypass, not after looking into the proposed route but will the bridge affect ships or wil it be high up like Waterford bypass one?


  • #131
    vicwatson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,404 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    In summer it can take over half an hour to get through the town (or much longer at peak holidays)

    What?? It can take longer (much longer) to get over the bridge and down the quays on a regular Friday evening, ne'er mind a Bank Holiday weekend or Summertime


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  • #132
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    The guts of an hour to get through New Ross is not a rare event. Combine that with Enniscorthys bottle necks and the N11 is utter misery often enough. Still at least Gorey has been done years. The unholy trinity.


  • #133
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    With population projections it will largely be towards the East Coast so the M9 will be of importance more so than the M8

    Again, no. It's not the 'east coast' thats set to grow, its the GDA. The projections are for the city regions to increase in size, with Dublin and the mid east to grow most of all. The South-East, the area served by the M9, is likely to grow at pretty much the national average. And remember, the M8 may 'just' have Cork at the end of it, but the Cork harbour region has a population of over 350,000 people (equivelant to the population of Counties Wexford, Waterford and Kilkenny but in a much smaller area). And that region has a far healthier economy than the SE, both in terms of unemployment and GVA (in simple terms, the area is more economically productive). Again, I've nothing against any region - just pointing out the factual basis required for policy making. Not much point pretending that Waterford is a masive port or that the region is flying, when plainly neither are true.

    The map for 2011 on page 18 of this should be a good place to start.

    http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/thisisirelandpart2census2011/This,is,Ireland,Highlights,,P2,Full,doc.pdf


  • #134
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Back to the road in question

    The tender has been published and the M11 Enniscorthy Bypass is no longer part of the scheme.
    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    will the bridge affect ships or wil it be high up like Waterford bypass one?

    I hope this answers your question:
    The vertical alignment for the Barrow Bridge allows a 36m clearance envelope above Mean High Water Spring for the navigation channel of the river

    It also helps explain why the total bridge length is 900m.


  • #135
    tonc76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭tonc76


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Back to the road in question

    The tender has been published and the M11 Enniscorthy Bypass is no longer part of the scheme.



    I hope this answers your question:


    It also helps explain why the total bridge length is 900m.

    I presume the EOI is before June 19th and not the tender submission?


  • #136
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    tonc76 wrote: »
    I presume the EOI is before June 19th and not the tender submission?

    Perhaps a better question for the tenders thread but AFAIK that's a submission date.


  • #137
    tonc76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭tonc76


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Perhaps a better question for the tenders thread but AFAIK that's a submission date.

    Its the cut off date for prequalification


  • #138
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,294 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    This has come up before - part of the reason behind building the present system was that there are a whole load of towns 'in the middle of Ireland' that could (and did) benefit from Motorway access. Simply drawing lines on the map between cities would ignore the well established urban hierarchy and make the CBA for the entire thing a lot less positive (if one was ever done).

    Not seeing the positive CBA in that analysis, Aidan. Giving preference to all those small midland towns at the expense of connecting the provincial cities to each other, which is far more important to the Irish economy, doesn't make sense. Seems like backward thinking in fact, I'm sorry to say.

    FF preached decentralisation but in reality delivered the most centralised motorway system in Europe!

    Makes a mockery of talk of N25 New Ross Bypasses, and all the over-inflated ideas of FF's maximized motorway network giving every little town in Ireland a motorway exit. Pure. Madness.


  • #139
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Here is the Corgo Viaduct now under construction east of Porto in Portugal. Cost €100m or so. It is a bypass of Vila Real...about the size of Galway or smaller.



    582510_474472145921955_1119700567_n.jpg

    398023_486917408013495_1782996328_n.jpg

    FzpVVMV.jpg

    Bing Aerial > http://binged.it/11H3DMg


  • #140
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    The NRA have published an update of the status of the PPP projects, including some low level information (which are probably already available) for this project: http://www.nra.ie/RepositoryforPublicationsInfo/file,18467,en.pdf
    N25 New Ross Bypass PPP Scheme
    The N25 New Ross Bypass Scheme includes the construction of sections of both the N25 and N30 routes. It is envisaged that the PPP Project will comprise works of approximately 16km: 14.8km of dual carriageway (N25 and N30 routes) and 1.2km of single carriageway (New Ross N30 route).

    Scheme Objectives
    The Scheme will form a strategic component of the national primary route network providing high quality links within the south east region. It will improve safety by providing a safer road type and ease congestion by providing a bypass of New Ross town on the N25 and N30 where significant delays occur. The scheme will greatly benefit local communities by improving their environment.

    Programme
    The Scheme was approved by An Bord Pleanála in December 2008. The scheme was developed to Preliminary Design Stage for the purpose of the planning process. The preliminary design and accompanying Environmental Impact Statement will be made available to Participants during the tender stage.

    Scheme Description – Principal Features
    • Three at-grade roundabout junctions at Glenmore (N25), Ballymacar Bridge (N25) and Corcoran’s Cross (N30) and a compact grade separated junction at Camlin (R733);
    • River Barrow crossing with a 36m clearance of the river channel. The crossing will be by way of a 3 tower extrados bridge and the structure will extend for approximately 900 metres from Pink Point in County Kilkenny to Stokestown in County Wexford;
    • 1 No. Railway Bridge – an overbridge of the disused New Ross Waterford near Glenmore;
    • 11 No. Road Bridges; and
    • 13 minor structures such as accommodation underpasses.

    Scheme Description – PPP Contract
    The Authority wishes to invite companies to tender on a design, build, finance, operate and maintain basis for the N25 New Ross Bypass PPP Scheme. Payments to be made by the Public sector to the private sector PPP contractor in respect of this PPP Project will be based on an availability based payment mechanism.

    It also confirms that the N11 Enniscorthy Bypass has been moved into a separate tender process, with the details to be announced later in 2013.


  • #141
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Makes a mockery of talk of N25 New Ross Bypasses, and all the over-inflated ideas of FF's maximized motorway network giving every little town in Ireland a motorway exit. Pure. Madness.
    FF had nothing to do with the NRA's plan. In any case decentralisation meant moving industry out to the regions - which would increase not decrease the amount of motorway mileage provided.
    I still think the way it was implemented was the correct one. The British/Italian approach where you try to serve everywhere with a minimal network is a failure. You end up having to constantly widen everything and there is no redundancy in the network.


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  • #142
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,294 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    spacetweek wrote: »
    FF had nothing to do with the NRA's plan.

    Didn't they? Really? Even though FF set up the NRA in 1993? And even though the motorway boom happened while they were in govt? And even though they were in the pocket of uncounted property developers along these routes? And cut the ribbon of every single newly opened stretch with photo op with all the trimmings and a nice roadside plaque? Well thats odd.
    spacetweek wrote: »
    In any case decentralisation meant moving industry out to the regions - which would increase not decrease the amount of motorway mileage provided.

    Yet somehow missed the advantage of, oh i don't know, interconnnecting the regions maybe, to support that goal.
    spacetweek wrote: »
    I still think the way it was implemented was the correct one. The British/Italian approach where you try to serve everywhere with a minimal network is a failure. You end up having to constantly widen everything and there is no redundancy in the network.

    First, how can the correct approach result in hundreds of miles of empty motorway? HUNDREDS! That has to be maintained via our taxes. Its like africa, the sheer scale of our economic ignorance as a state. We're still practicing 1930s moneterism. If this approach is correct, then I WANT to be wrong!

    Second, I hear this word redundancy a lot to refer to our oversized network, but what do you mean by it? Give people from Cork three different ways to reach Dublin? Why? That sounds a bit, well, stupid really. Give Dubliners three different ways to reach the city centre by public transport then, redundancy for all!

    Third, GB pioneered motorway building in the 50s so I think you can cut them some slack for making early mistakes. You can't cut Ireland any slack because it had 50 years of motorway building history to study, and yet still made a balls of the network for the reasons I've stated. Unless you like joyriding down miles of empty tarmac. Then its great! :)


  • #143
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,538 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    We don't have "HUNDREDS" of miles of empty motorway. South of Kilkenny the M9 is hugely below the traffic expected but that, basically, is it.


  • #144
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    MYOB wrote: »
    We don't have "HUNDREDS" of miles of empty motorway. South of Kilkenny the M9 is hugely below the traffic expected but that, basically, is it.

    You have some problem with the M9 don't you....is it the only road/motorway that is below traffic in Ireland? The fact is that every single road in Ireland is well below traffic projections that were for 2013. Cost of operating a car and higher unemployment just some of the reasons.


  • #145
    Bards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Bards


    MYOB wrote: »
    We don't have "HUNDREDS" of miles of empty motorway. South of Kilkenny the M9 is hugely below the traffic expected but that, basically, is it.

    This part of the M9 is on a par with the lighter trafficked section of the M8 too

    Check out the nra road counts, are we to assume that we should have missing bits of Motorway aka M11?


  • #146
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,538 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    You have some problem with the M9 don't you....

    It was a catastrophic waste of money, that is all. There also seem to be people who jump out of nowhere to defend it and claim that its effectively the M50 through farmland at a moments notice.


  • #147
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    MYOB wrote: »
    It was a catastrophic waste of money, that is all. There also seem to be people who jump out of nowhere to defend it and claim that its effectively the M50 through farmland at a moments notice.

    Of course the whole legenths of the M8, M7, M3 were all justified are they, don't justify it by large cities at either end as that means nothing.


  • #148
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,538 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    don't justify it by large cities at either end as that means nothing.

    Oh dear god. I'm not even going to go down that road if you think that's an acceptable way to avoid the entire crux of the argument.

    The N9 needed no more than S2 south of Kilkenny. It'd have had to be offline for the most part due to how bad the old road was.

    If the N11/N25/N30 had been upgraded, the N9 could have been left untouched.


  • #149
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    MYOB wrote: »
    Oh dear god. I'm not even going to go down that road if you think that's an acceptable way to avoid the entire crux of the argument.

    The N9 needed no more than S2 south of Kilkenny. It'd have had to be offline for the most part due to how bad the old road was.

    If the N11/N25/N30 had been upgraded, the N9 could have been left untouched.

    The lets do it this way M8 and M9 numbers are more less the same near the end of them so why isn't the M8 a waste of money. As you say a whole new road would of being needed between Kilkenny and Waterford so adding two more lanes wouldn't make a major differance in cost.

    I see no reasons why the N30 needs to be upgraded as you couldn't expect people from Waterford to travel to Dublin that way.

    Sure why wasn't the M9 stopped at Carlow as there is around 1000 cars usuage differance between Carlow-Kilkenny and Kilkenny-Waterford.


  • #150
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,538 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    At their ends, the M8 carries about 55% more traffic than the M9. I don't see where you're trying to go with this argument.

    The quietest sections of the M8 which are always plucked for this debate still carry more traffic than anywhere on the M9 for the entire section south of Kilkenny.


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  • #151
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    MYOB wrote: »
    At their ends, the M8 carries about 55% more traffic than the M9. I don't see where you're trying to go with this argument.

    The quietest sections of the M8 which are always plucked for this debate still carry more traffic than anywhere on the M9 for the entire section south of Kilkenny.

    And how does the quietest part of the M8 compare with the M7 and M6 quiet sections and if its quieter then by you lodgic its a wast of money to have it.


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