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Auschwitz Museum Director Reveals 'Gas Chamber' Hoax

  • 07-07-2009 1:40am
    #1
    polishpaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭


    The sh!t has hit the fan!!!!!!
    In a dramatic and unprecedented videotaped interview, Dr. Franciszek Piper, senior curator and director of archives of the Auschwitz State Museum admitted on camera that 'Krema 1,' the alleged 'homicidal gas chamber' shown off to hundreds of thousands of tourists every year at the Auschwitz main camp, was, in fact, fabricated after the war by the Soviet Union -apparently on the direct orders of Josef Stalin.
    What Piper said - in effect and on camera - was that the explosive 1988 Leuchter Report was correct: no homicidal gassings took place in the buildings designated as 'homicidal gas chambers' at Auschwitz.


    http://www.rense.com/general53/aauz.htm


«134

Comments

  • #2
    zuroph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,097 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    old, and debunked.

    http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/p/piper.franciszek/press/daily.texan.1093
    ear Sirs,

    In connection with an advertisement of David Cole (An open letter to the daily Texan, February 19, 1993) in which he offers
    the videotape named "David Cole - Interviews Dr Franciszek
    Piper" I would like to inform your readers:

    1. the sham interview with me there is the Neonazi
    style monologue of young man who never seriously approached the great
    tragedy of humanity named Auschwitz and Holocaust. In his
    ingenuousness he decided to halt the part of the murderers
    instead of their innocent victims - different every
    honest man does. My answers on a few questions of Cole ( who
    deceitfully introduced himself as a man who wanted to convince his
    acquaintances in America that Auschwitz was really a place of
    genocide) constitute a small proportion of this video tape.

    2. In his advertisement he introduces me as a "Head of
    Auschwitz Archives at the Auschwitz State Museum". This is
    untruth. I am not and I have been neither a head of Auschwitz Archives
    nor a director of Auschwitz Musum, as Cole maintains in
    other propaganda leaflets. The purpose of such manipulation
    with of facts is clear - to attract potential purchasers of his
    "Interview" video tape.

    3. Cole maintains that I first time admitted the allegedly
    unknown fact the Nazis adapted the crematorium in question in
    which the gas chamber were located for air-raid shelter, the fact
    allegedly unknown even for Museum guides. It is un truth. See
    enclosed copies of pages from the books which constitute the
    fundamental reading for Auschwitz guides. In book by T-an Sehn
    "Concentrat Camp Ogwiqcim-Brzezinka (Auschwitz-Birkenau)Warsaw 1957,
    You may read on the page 152-"In May 1944 the old Crematorium
    I in the base camp was adapted for use as an air raid shelter

    The Fact is also confirmed in the book by Jean Claude Pressac
    "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers,
    published by The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York 1989 (515
    Madison Avenue). On the page 157 you may read: "With part of the
    building converted to an air raid shelter, this is the state in which
    the SS abandoned Krematorium I in January 1945" Repeating what
    Pressac had written I told what was the nature of the
    adaptation works carried out by the Nazis and what one had to do to
    remove those changes in order to regain the previous appearance.
    They are all "Pipers revelations. In spite of the fact that
    such secondary restoration works had to be done there is an
    undisputable reality that the gas chamber in question is housed in the same
    building which has been existed from prewar times till now.

    4. The fact that the Nazi murderers used gas chambers (in
    Birkenau you can see the ruins of the other 5 gas chambers) for
    mass annihilation of innocent men, women and children, mostly
    Jews, has been proved by thousands of memoires and depositions of
    eyewitnesses as well as by German official documents and plans.
    It is obvious fact for everybody who wants to approach the
    problem, to contact still living witnesses and to study historical
    sources.

    5. I have devoted 28 years of my life to save the memory of
    the counless victims of the Nazi barbarity to warn people against
    indifference to all forms of racial, religious and national
    based hatered, which leads to injustice, suffering and killing
    of innocent people. Because of it I take the fact my name is
    used for disseminating such kind of lies and hiding of the obvious
    truth as a lack of honesty and dignity.

    yours,sincerely



    DrFranciszek Piper

    PS Send me please the copy ofyour magazine in which my letter will be
    published

    [transcription note: Dr. Piper's first language is Polish, not
    English, and the letter reads awkwardly. knm]


  • #3
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    PolishPaddy, dont you know,

    No one may question the holocaust, it is cast in stone, even the bits that keep changing;)

    if you want to get anywhere on this topic check out the revisionism of the official numbers from Auschwitz, they dropped from 4.1Million to 1.1Million around 1992, yet most people ar unaware of this.

    Me Personaly I dont doubt there were Gas Chambers, just that they didnt kill as many people as is being claimed, hell they DID kill a lot of people.

    however by the time that the soviets and Yanks liberated the places Supply lines had ben cut for up to 6 months, is it any surprise that they found a disease ridden half starved population in the camps, they may well have found the same in a lot of Berlin suburbs, Germany had been broken.

    also if they had state of the art incenerators why were there large piles of bodies everywhere:confused:

    lots of this dosent make sense and there are obvious contradictions, however if you dig at all you will be branded as an AntisemiticHolocaustDenyingBabyEatingNeoNazi


  • #4
    thecommander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭thecommander


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    however if you dig at all you will be branded as an AntisemiticHolocaustDenyingBabyEatingNeoNazi

    Its usually your words surrounding your digging that brand you that.


  • #5
    6th
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    Lads, cop on or there will be big consequences.


  • #6
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Read:
    "The war against the Jews" ISBN 055334532X
    The book also provides detailed listings by country of the number of Jews killed in World War II. Dawidowicz researched birth and death records in many cities of prewar Europe to come up with a death toll of 5.933.900 Jews. Some historians[who?] consider this number an underestimate since many records were lost during the war, many births and deaths were not recorded in small towns and villages, and many births occurred in countries between their last prewar censuses and the start of the war.

    One particularly interesting evidence is the One Way Excursion Tickets to the Camps. Everything was very documented. This shows how many sent and didn't return. The Nazi's did get a discount of course.

    I've read the book.. but here is some background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Against_the_Jews


    In many countries posting a link to such lies is illegal.

    That site is the worst sort of biased "journalism" to feed anti-Semitism under a disguise of AntiZionism. Freedom of speech (in any country) is not the right to continuously publish hatred & lies even it if is a firmly held opinion.

    Yes, of course the Nazis also killed many Russians, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Mentally Ill etc. But Hitler had a special hatred of Jews.

    If you want a really good Conspiracy Theory to chew:
    * Why did Hitler want to kill EVERY Jew? (Why invade Russia for example?)
    * Why did the allies refuse asylum, including Ireland, AFTER the fact of the camps well known during WWII?
    * Why did the allies not bomb the railway lines?
    * Why does France and others still not face up to the degree of collaboration to help the Nazis send their Jews to the Camps?


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  • #7
    Ddad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 441 ✭✭Ddad


    I always find it incredible that people can debate on the numbers killed by the Nazis in concentration camps.

    They killed millions. Fact. the manner iw which huge numbers of families were torn asunder and children murdered darkens human history and is so deeply sad.

    I don't think anybody cares if makes the guiness book of records for mass murder. It was a mass murder of sickening, diabolical proportions.

    Every time the debate on these issues arises it chips away at the fact that so many died so horifically. The manner of their deaths is unspeakable, the regimen, the routine applied to achieve such ends is abominable.

    Semantics!

    In my view concious undermining of this history is a form of defense of the perpetrators; and that in itself is wthout defense.

    Go away and debate the hysterics that surround the death of Michael Jackson, it is surely more prescient.


  • #8
    Ddad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 441 ✭✭Ddad


    by the way Mahatma 1.1 million PEOPLE is almost the population of Dublin not a statistic.


  • #9
    King Mob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Mahatma coat wrote: »

    if you want to get anywhere on this topic check out the revisionism of the official numbers from Auschwitz, they dropped from 4.1Million to 1.1Million around 1992, yet most people ar unaware of this.
    That's not true.
    The exact number is hard to pin down and range from 4.1 to 1.1 million.
    These numbers are based on good historical research. Something Neonazis and anti-semites rarely do or back their claims up with.

    The guy who was miss quoted places the figure at 1.1 million.
    http://en.auschwitz.org.pl/m/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=334&Itemid=8

    While the first commandant of the camp, Rudolf Hoss claimed it was 3 million during the Nuremberg trails.

    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    also if they had state of the art incenerators why were there large piles of bodies everywhere:confused:
    You kind of answer you own question here.
    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    however by the time that the soviets and Yanks liberated the places Supply lines had ben cut for up to 6 months, is it any surprise that they found a disease ridden half starved population in the camps, they may well have found the same in a lot of Berlin suburbs, Germany had been broken.
    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    lots of this dosent make sense and there are obvious contradictions, however if you dig at all you will be branded as an AntisemiticHolocaustDenyingBabyEatingNeoNazi
    Well does this digging include a deliberate attempt to misquote and misrepresent someone as saying something he didn't mean or believe in the slightest for the express purpose of misleading people?

    Doesn't seem like an honest way to dig for the truth to me.


  • #10
    Kernel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭Kernel


    Ddad wrote: »
    by the way Mahatma 1.1 million PEOPLE is almost the population of Dublin not a statistic.

    Wrong, the death of one man is a tragedy, the death of one million is a statistic. :)

    Stalin was responsible for much more death than the nazis during the same period. How many Soviets were hanged? History Ddad, is written by the victors.


  • #11
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    where is he being misquoted???


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  • #12
    zuroph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,097 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    where is he being misquoted???
    they twist his words to sound like the gas chamber never existed and that no homicidal gassings took place. which is a lie.


  • #13
    King Mob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    where is he being misquoted???

    You're kidding right?

    From the OP article.
    What Piper said - in effect and on camera - was that the explosive 1988 Leuchter Report was correct: no homicidal gassings took place in the buildings designated as 'homicidal gas chambers' at Auschwitz.

    From the letter:
    4. The fact that the Nazi murderers used gas chambers (in
    Birkenau you can see the ruins of the other 5 gas chambers) for
    mass annihilation of innocent men, women and children, mostly
    Jews, has been proved by thousands of memoires and depositions of
    eyewitnesses as well as by German official documents and plans.
    It is obvious fact for everybody who wants to approach the
    problem, to contact still living witnesses and to study historical
    sources.

    If that's not what being misquoted and misrepresented I don't know what is.

    Also the article continues the claim from the video that this guy is a director of archives at Auschwitz.
    This is a lie.


  • #14
    Ddad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 441 ✭✭Ddad


    Kernel wrote: »
    Wrong, the death of one man is a tragedy, the death of one million is a statistic. :)

    Stalin was responsible for much more death than the nazis during the same period. How many Soviets were hanged? History Ddad, is written by the victors.

    I couldn't tell you how many soviets were hanged, less I'd imagine than were shot, beaten, starved or frozen to death. Let me know where your enquiry links in with this thread. I don't recall cheering on Stalin.

    Thanks for that bit about history being written by the victors, it's brilliant if a little simplistic. Glad you let me know though.:rolleyes:


  • #15
    Kernel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭Kernel


    Ddad wrote: »
    I couldn't tell you how many soviets were hanged, less I'd imagine than were shot, beaten, starved or frozen to death. Let me know where your enquiry links in with this thread. I don't recall cheering on Stalin.

    I quoted Stalin in reply to your post, hence the reference to him.
    Ddad wrote: »
    Thanks for that bit about history being written by the victors, it's brilliant if a little simplistic. Glad you let me know though.:rolleyes:

    Brilliant and simplistic, isn't that an oxymoron?


  • #16
    Ddad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 441 ✭✭Ddad


    Kernel wrote: »
    I quoted Stalin in reply to your post, hence the reference to him.



    Brilliant and simplistic, isn't that an oxymoron?

    The wheel.


  • #17
    IrelandSpirit
    Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭IrelandSpirit


    King Mob wrote: »
    You're kidding right?

    Also the article continues the claim from the video that this guy is a director of archives at Auschwitz.
    This is a lie.


    Very interesting. Watched the video, the jury is still out in my mind, need to do some serious research on this one, but just did a quick search for Piper on wikipedia:

    Franciszek Piper (born 1941) is a Polish scholar, historian and author. Most of his work concerns the Jewish Holocaust, especially the history of the concentration camps at Auschwitz. Dr. Piper is credited as one of the historians who helped establish a more accurate number of victims of Auschwitz-Birkenau death camps. According to his research, at least 1.1 million people perished at Auschwitz-Birkenau, of whom about 1 million were Jewish. He is the author of several books and chair of the Historical Department at the Auschwitz State Museum



    Could it be that as Chair of the Historical Department he might of been the Director of Archives at the time Cole interviewed him?

    Just found this too:

    "Israel Gutman, a historian at Hebrew University in Israel and former Auschwitz prisoner, estimates there were 1.5 million victims, of which 93 percent to 95 percent were Jews, and roughly the same number of other victims calculated by Piper."

    The death-toll does appear to have dropped from 4 million to 1.5 million...


  • #18
    King Mob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    IrelandSpirit wrote: »
    Very interesting. Watched the video, the jury is still out in my mind, need to do some serious research on this one, but just did a quick search for Piper on wikipedia:

    Franciszek Piper (born 1941) is a Polish scholar, historian and author. Most of his work concerns the Jewish Holocaust, especially the history of the concentration camps at Auschwitz. Dr. Piper is credited as one of the historians who helped establish a more accurate number of victims of Auschwitz-Birkenau death camps. According to his research, at least 1.1 million people perished at Auschwitz-Birkenau, of whom about 1 million were Jewish. He is the author of several books and chair of the Historical Department at the Auschwitz State Museum



    Could it be that as Chair of the Historical Department he might of been the Director of Archives at the time Cole interviewed him?

    Just found this too:

    "Israel Gutman, a historian at Hebrew University in Israel and former Auschwitz prisoner, estimates there were 1.5 million victims, of which 93 percent to 95 percent were Jews, and roughly the same number of other victims calculated by Piper."

    The death-toll does appear to have dropped from 4 million to 1.5 million...
    I think you're missing the point.

    The bit were the articles claims Piper said something he didn't say and doesn't believe in the slightest.

    And yes the accepted death toll at Auschwitz has changed but that happens when people do honest historical research and present verifiable evidence.
    the 1.1 - 1.4 million people range is the most likely death toll at Auschwitz given the the evidence.


  • #19
    polishpaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭polishpaddy


    watty wrote:
    If you want a really good Conspiracy Theory to chew:
    * Why did Hitler want to kill EVERY Jew? (Why invade Russia for example?)
    * Why did the allies refuse asylum, including Ireland, AFTER the fact of the camps well known during WWII?
    * Why did the allies not bomb the railway lines?
    * Why does France and others still not face up to the degree of collaboration to help the Nazis send their Jews to the Camps?

    q) Why did Hitler want to kill EVERY Jew? (Why invade Russia for example?)

    a) There is not one order from hitler to support that assertion.


  • #20
    King Mob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    polishpaddy wrote: »
    q) Why did Hitler want to kill EVERY Jew? (Why invade Russia for example?)

    a) There is not one order from hitler to support that assertion.

    Yes there is.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Solution


  • #21
    IrelandSpirit
    Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭IrelandSpirit


    polishpaddy wrote: »
    q) Why did Hitler want to kill EVERY Jew? (Why invade Russia for example?)

    a) There is not one order from hitler to support that assertion.




    Hmmm...... that's what I'm looking for too. But I think the question is whether there's conclusive evidence to support that it was official Nazi policy to deliberately exterminate ALL perceived enemies of the state.

    The Nazi's sent people with various religious beliefs to the camps, including Christians, but was their intent to kill them on the spot?


    Is it logical to assume that if that were the case, the Nazis would have done so and in the most efficient and expedient way possible, going on how they conducted their affairs?

    And if that were their intent, then wouldn't we expect to find tons of written documentary evidence, they were meticulous record keepers.....

    It seems they made no effort to hide other crimes like their human experimentation programs, their work (if you can call it that) is still used and studied today, why destroy all the documentary evidence of the extermination programs? Did they seriously think that if they lost the war they were going to get away with that, but not all their other crimes?

    There's little doubt in my mind that the camps were responsible for the deaths of millions. It did happen. I'm not sure what the reasons could be for that swimming pool Cole shows in his documentary, it was so surreal seeing that, but I don't go along with the theory that the Holocaust didn't happen.....

    The question is whether or not evidence exists that the Nazis had a deliberate extermination program. Deliberate being the operative word...


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  • #22
    IrelandSpirit
    Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭IrelandSpirit


    King Mob wrote: »
    I think you're missing the point.

    The bit were the articles claims Piper said something he didn't say and doesn't believe in the slightest.

    And yes the accepted death toll at Auschwitz has changed but that happens when people do honest historical research and present verifiable evidence.
    the 1.1 - 1.4 million people range is the most likely death toll at Auschwitz given the the evidence.


    hmmm..... am i missing the point? Piper did hold a senior position at the Auschwitz State Museum, and apparantly still does, so it's quite safe to assume that Cole was'nt lying in his documentary about Piper's status... no?


  • #23
    IrelandSpirit
    Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭IrelandSpirit


    King Mob wrote: »

    The bit were the articles claims Piper said something he didn't say and doesn't believe in the slightest.
    .

    Ah, gotcha, can you be a bit more specific please? Because it appears that Piper is denying he said a lot of things....


  • #24
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes



    And if that were their intent, then wouldn't we expect to find tons of written documentary evidence, they were meticulous record keepers.....

    There are meticulous records and thousands of them. Just because you haven't bothered to look doesn't mean they aren't there.
    It seems they made no effort to hide other crimes like their human experimentation programs, their work (if you can call it that) is still used and studied today, why destroy all the documentary evidence of the extermination programs? Did they seriously think that if they lost the war they were going to get away with that, but not all their other crimes?

    There isn't records of the Potsdam conference, but there are thousands of movement orders, Identity cards, and so on.

    There's little doubt in my mind that the camps were responsible for the deaths of millions. It did happen. I'm not sure what the reasons could be for that swimming pool Cole shows in his documentary, it was so surreal seeing that, but I don't go along with the theory that the Holocaust didn't happen.....

    The question is whether or not evidence exists that the Nazis had a deliberate extermination program. Deliberate being the operative word...

    Well there's the mass ovens, for a start.

    Before you start questioning the Holocaust perhaps you should look at evidence. Perhaps start with Vassily Grossman's Aside from being the finest Soviet era novelist, he witnessed the horror of the camp at Treblinka, as a war correspondent and testified at Nuremburg.

    The evidence for the holocaust is vast and overwhelming, and anyone who claims otherwise hasn't seriously looked at the subject.


  • #25
    A Primal Nut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    Kernel wrote: »
    Wrong, the death of one man is a tragedy, the death of one million is a statistic. :)

    Stalin was responsible for much more death than the nazis during the same period. How many Soviets were hanged? History Ddad, is written by the victors.

    History is written by the victors? You've obviously never studied History then because Stalin is considered one of the most evil men in History and his Russian Army was known to be particularly brutal. The fact you know that "Stalin was responsible for much more death than the nazis during the same period" proves this point - there is no cover up - we all know how bad Stalin was.

    "How many Soviets were hanged?" Are you serious? Of course the fact that the Soviets were on the Allied side and won the war, and USSR was never taken over under Stalin; meant there were no equivalent of the Nuremburg Trials simply because it wasn't logistically possible (for obvious reasons). That still doesn't mean it wasn't right to convict and hang the Nazis for their brutal crimes, as what the soviets did had nothing to do with what the Nazis did.

    So, there is no big conspiracy or "History is written by the victors," even Churchill himself knew Stalin and Communism was a big enemy but had no choice but to ally Britain with him in order to defeat Hitler; who was a bigger enemy due to his attempted invasion of Britain.


  • #26
    IrelandSpirit
    Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭IrelandSpirit


    Diogenes wrote: »
    There are meticulous records and thousands of them. Just because you haven't bothered to look doesn't mean they aren't there.



    There isn't records of the Potsdam conference, but there are thousands of movement orders, Identity cards, and so on.



    Well there's the mass ovens, for a start.

    Before you start questioning the Holocaust perhaps you should look at evidence. Perhaps start with Vassily Grossman's Aside from being the finest Soviet era novelist, he witnessed the horror of the camp at Treblinka, as a war correspondent and testified at Nuremburg.

    The evidence for the holocaust is vast and overwhelming, and anyone who claims otherwise hasn't seriously looked at the subject.

    Please, it's not that I have'nt bothered to look, I'm starting to do just that! Jeez...

    And what's wrong with asking questions befere looking for their answers? Don't we need to ask questions before we find the answers?

    I thought this was a conspiracey forum, and you appear to have your mind already made up on this issue.

    Thanks for the link though, I'll have a look at that now...


  • #27
    A Primal Nut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    By the way, I'm not aware of any Nazis who, during the Nuremburg trials, pleaded not guilty on the basis the holocaust didn't happen or on the basis that their role was exaggerated. They all pleaded not guilty on the basis they were following orders.


  • #28
    6th
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    IrelandSpirit, dont mind Diogenes attitude. Bare in mind some of the ppl in here have been arguing their side for a long time now and might come across as abrupt or agressive.

    As you are new to the forum may I also suggest you read the Forum Charter to help you navigatee these sometimes dangerous waters :D


  • #29
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    IrelandSpirit wrote: »
    Please, it's not that I have'nt bothered to look, I'm starting to do just that! Jeez...

    And what's wrong with asking questions befere looking for their answers? Don't we need to ask questions before we find the answers?
    .

    You said.
    why destroy all the documentary evidence of the extermination programs?

    And
    The question is whether or not evidence exists that the Nazis had a deliberate extermination program. Deliberate being the operative word...

    These are loaded questions. They didn't destroy all the documentary evidence of the programs, you seem to already think they did. On what basis do you already have this believe?

    As to the why of hiding the final solution, theres an excellent dramatisation of the Wannasee conference


  • #30
    polishpaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭polishpaddy


    King Mob wrote: »
    Yes there is.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Solution


    Let me correct you. As of when i posted my reply you were replying to my post which took 20 odd minutes and you had to search hi and low on google for something to prove me wrong. You've failed to do that and I will show you why you failed.

    That "wikipidea" link to a picturre of a letter is bs.

    Read this

    The relevant text is a handwritten cover letter, by Reinhard Heydrich to Martin Luther of the Foreign Office, dated February 26, 1942, forwarding the minutes of the Wannsee Conference. In the opening sentence Heydrich uses explicitly the expression, "the final solution to the Jewish question".[10] The following is a translation of the letter from German to English:
    Dear Fellow Party Member [Parteigenosse] Luther!
    Enclosed I am sending you the minutes of the proceedings that took place on January 20, 1942.
    Since the basic position regarding the practical execution of the final solution of the Jewish question has fortunately been established by now, and since there is a full agreement on the part of all agencies involved. I would like to ask you at the request of the Reich Marshal to make one of your specialist officials available for the necessary discussion of details in connection with the completion of the draft that shows the organizational, technical and material prerequisites bearing on the actual starting point of the projected solutions.
    I want to schedule the first discussion along these lines for 10:30 a.m. on March 6, 1942 at 116 Kurfürstenstrasse, Berlin. I therefore ask you that for this purpose your specialist official contact my functionary in charge there, SS-Obersturmbannführer Eichmann.



    Now is this a letter from hitler to kill jews? No it's not.


    q) Why did Hitler want to kill EVERY Jew? (Why invade Russia for example?)

    a) There is not one order from hitler to support that assertion.


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  • #31
    IrelandSpirit
    Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭IrelandSpirit


    Diogenes wrote: »
    You said.



    And



    These are loaded questions. They didn't destroy all the documentary evidence of the programs, you seem to already think they did. On what basis do you already have this believe?

    As to the why of hiding the final solution, theres an excellent dramatisation of the Wannasee conference


    Diogenes, please don't - this is what i asked:

    It seems they made no effort to hide other crimes like their human experimentation programs, their work (if you can call it that) is still used and studied today, why destroy all the documentary evidence of the extermination programs?

    The operative word there is 'seems', as in 'it appears to' or 'I can't be certain', and if you look closely you'll see a little odd-looking squiggly mark at the end of that sentence too, commonly referred to as a question mark. I'm asking a question. I do not 'already believe' anything, but i am asking that question on the basis that I believed I was in the company of open-minded people.

    Likewise, they perhaps sound like loaded questions to you because it appears you already have very fixed ideas about this subject.

    The other point i raised which you also seem to have a problem with, even though it underpins everything this thread is (supposedly) about, was an attempt to form a solid basis (in my mind) from which to begin researching. I.e. Whether or not evidence exists that the Nazis had a deliberate extermination program. Deliberate being the operative word. I am not denying millions of people died in those camps, and under horrific conditions - but if we're going to treat this difficult subject seriously and with the respect due to it, then we must be prepared to ask difficult questions and not be afraid of the answers we might find.


    By the way, that link you gave me was for a novel on Amazon.com, I'm not going to buy it (not now anyway) - I'm looking for links to actual documentary evidence, records from the camps themselves on a deliberate genocidal program..... The International Red Cross were at the camps, but I can't find much on what they said either...


    Anyway, i'm late for work, will continue later, but if you already have your mind made up on all this, I will respect that, just please cut me a little slack here :)


  • #32
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    polishpaddy wrote: »

    [/INDENT]Now is this a letter from hitler to kill jews? No it's not.

    So the Nazis decided to murder millions of jews and divert massive resources to do this, and didn't mention this to Hitler, and this occured at a time, when entire panzer divisions where under specific control.
    q) Why did Hitler want to kill EVERY Jew? (Why invade Russia for example?)

    Wheres your proof that Hitler invaded Russia to kill Jews? He invaded Russia because he had ideology differences with communism, distrusted Stalin and wanted access to the Caucasus oil fields.
    a) There is not one order from hitler to support that assertion.

    Wheres the order from Hitler to invade Russia? Or France?


  • #33
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    IrelandSpirit wrote: »
    Diogenes, please don't - this is what i asked:

    It seems they made no effort to hide other crimes like their human experimentation programs, their work (if you can call it that) is still used and studied today, why destroy all the documentary evidence of the extermination programs?

    And again I'll ask why do you think they destroyed all the documentary evidence of extermination programs? I don't think you understand the question, I'm not asking you "why did they destroy all the documentary evidence". I'm asking you "why do you think they destroyed all the documentary evidence". Because there are vast amounts (and I'm talking millions of files here) recovered that document the holocaust.
    he U.S. Army made many significant finds of Nazi booty and records, among them gold, currency, artworks, and documentation discovered on April 7, 1945, by engineers of the U.S. 90th Infantry Division in the Kaiseroda Salt mine in Merkers, Germany. Millions of documents were captured at various locations, including records of the German Army High Command records; files from Krupp, Henschel, and other German industrial concerns; Luftwaffe (German air force) material; and records kept by Heinrich Himmler (the Chief of the German Police and Reich Leader of the SS), the German Foreign Office, and many others.

    Even where central files had been destroyed, the Allies were able to some extent to reconstruct events and operations from the records they did secure. The Reich Security Main Office (RSHA) records, for example, were burned in the basement of its Prague regional headquarters but copies of many of RSHA records were found and collected from the files of local Gestapo (secret state police) offices across Germany. Captured German documents provided a record of the policies and actions of the Nazi state. Both the Wannsee Conference Protocol, which documented the cooperation of various German state agencies in the SS-led Holocaust, and the Einsatzgruppen Reports, which documented the progress of the mobile killing units assigned, among other tasks, to kill Jewish civilians during the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, were among the documents central to the Holocaust submitted at Nuremberg.


    During the Nuremberg trial, Nazi Germany's dedicated filming of itself was also turned into evidence of its crimes. From the earliest beginnings of the Nazi Party in the 1920s, through the military invasions of World War II and graphic depictions of atrocities, German photographers and camera crews recorded (often proudly) what they accomplished in pursuit of their ideology. Toward the end of the war, teams of Allied military personnel worked tirelessly to locate, collect, and categorize this photographic and film record.




    In addition to official photography and films produced at the behest of the Nazi state, German soldiers and police took numerous photographs and film footage of German operations against Jews and other civilians. They documented the public humiliation of Jews, their deportation, mass murder, and confinement in concentration camps. This became powerful visual evidence of Nazi war crimes submitted at Nuremberg. For example, Allied prosecutors submitted the so-called “Stroop Report,” which included as an appendix an album of photographs taken on the orders of SS and Police Leader Jürgen Stroop to document his destruction of the Warsaw ghetto uprising in spring 1943. According to Stroop's own calculations, his forces captured more than 55,000 Jews and of these, killed at least 7,000 and sent 7,000 more to the Treblinka killing center.

    Source


  • #34
    Imrama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭Imrama


    most people actually forget that the allies never liberated the death camps as made popular in series like band of brothers

    they were 'liberated' by the soviets and the west was not allowed to examine them until the late 80s

    not to say people did not die in the concentration camps but the holocaust has also sadly become an industry that one cannot question in any way without having anti-semite thrown at you


  • #35
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    IrelandSpirit wrote: »
    The International Red Cross were at the camps, but I can't find much on what they said either...
    The Red cross admit massive mistakes were made in their reviews of the camps.
    The Red Cross handed over 60,000 pages of World War II-era documents to Israel on Tuesday and a top official acknowledged the organization's ``moral failure'' in keeping silent while the Nazis murdered six million Jews Six Million Jews their deaths a testimony to Nazi “Final Solution.”

    Very clearly, the ICRC's activities with regard to the Holocaust are sensed as a moral failure,'' said George Willemin, director of archives for the Geneva-based International Committee of the Red Cross

    Source


  • #36
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    Imrama wrote: »
    most people actually forget that the allies never liberated the death camps as made popular in series like band of brothers

    they were 'liberated' by the soviets and the west was not allowed to examine them until the late 80s

    not to say people did not die in the concentration camps but the holocaust has also sadly become an industry that one cannot question in any way without having anti-semite thrown at you

    You're just so wrong about this you should frankly be embarrassed.

    1st Battalion Welsh Guard liberated Belsen. And the 101st Airborne, (that'd be the band of brothers fellows) liberated Landsberg. The filmaker Sam Fuller was part of the American 16th Infantry division that liberated Falkenau.

    And I picked those facts just off the top of my head.


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  • #37
    polishpaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭polishpaddy


    Diogenes wrote: »
    So the Nazis decided to murder millions of jews and divert massive resources to do this, and didn't mention this to Hitler, and this occured at a time, when entire panzer divisions where under specific control.



    Wheres your proof that Hitler invaded Russia to kill Jews? He invaded Russia because he had ideology differences with communism, distrusted Stalin and wanted access to the Caucasus oil fields.



    Wheres the order from Hitler to invade Russia? Or France?

    So far we have establised hitler never gave an order to kill all jews.Such an order or document, never existed.Your understanding is incorrect just like the other posters before you.

    Now your shying away from that by asking did the nazis instead of hitler decide to kill millions of jews?No they did not.
    The mass transfer of Jews to the Middle East was the goal.Not the murder of millions of jews like your trying to assert.You forget the country was at war.


  • #38
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    polishpaddy wrote: »
    So far we have establised hitler never gave an order to kill all jews.Such an order or document, never existed.Your understanding is incorrect just like the other posters before you.

    Now your shying away from that by asking did the nazis instead of hitler decide to kill millions of jews?No they did not.
    The mass transfer of Jews to the Middle East was the goal.Not the murder of millions of jews like your trying to assert.You forget the country was at war.


    So what the ovens/gas chambers/mobile SS death squads were what? A misscommunication?


  • #39
    King Mob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    IrelandSpirit wrote: »
    hmmm..... am i missing the point? Piper did hold a senior position at the Auschwitz State Museum, and apparantly still does, so it's quite safe to assume that Cole was'nt lying in his documentary about Piper's status... no?

    Well he was certainly misrepresenting him.
    The title of the article:
    "Auschwitz Museum Director Reveals 'Gas Chamber' Hoax"
    He was not a Director at the Museum and he did not reveal a "Gas Chamber Hoax".

    2. In his advertisement he introduces me as a "Head of
    Auschwitz Archives at the Auschwitz State Museum". This is
    untruth. I am not and I have been neither a head of Auschwitz Archives
    nor a director of Auschwitz Musum, as Cole maintains in
    other propaganda leaflets. The purpose of such manipulation
    with of facts is clear - to attract potential purchasers of his
    "Interview" video tape.
    IrelandSpirit wrote: »
    Ah, gotcha, can you be a bit more specific please? Because it appears that Piper is denying he said a lot of things....

    From the article:
    What Piper said - in effect and on camera - was that the explosive 1988 Leuchter Report was correct: no homicidal gassings took place in the buildings designated as 'homicidal gas chambers' at Auschwitz.

    From the letter in response.
    4. The fact that the Nazi murderers used gas chambers (in
    Birkenau you can see the ruins of the other 5 gas chambers) for
    mass annihilation of innocent men, women and children, mostly
    Jews, has been proved by thousands of memoires and depositions of
    eyewitnesses as well as by German official documents and plans.
    It is obvious fact for everybody who wants to approach the
    problem, to contact still living witnesses and to study historical
    sources.

    I have already pointed this out.


  • #40
    A Primal Nut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    polishpaddy wrote: »
    So far we have establised hitler never gave an order to kill all jews.Such an order or document, never existed.Your understanding is incorrect just like the other posters before you.

    Now your shying away from that by asking did the nazis instead of hitler decide to kill millions of jews?No they did not.
    The mass transfer of Jews to the Middle East was the goal.Not the murder of millions of jews like your trying to assert.You forget the country was at war.

    Joseph Goebbels:

    "With respect of the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would live to see their annihilation in it. That wasn't just a catch-word. The world war is here, and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence".

    There is nothing vague about "annihilation of the jews."

    Heinrich Himmler's diary notes:

    Jewish Question / to be exterminated like the partisans

    Both were referring to meetings with Hitler.

    Online Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/hitler-final-solution/#note-07 (which refers to sources in books/magazines)

    In addition, all other Nazi leaders who spoke of an order spoke of one from Hitler in early 1941.

    By the way, do any sources indicate that any Jews were brought to the middle east instead of killed?


  • #41
    King Mob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    polishpaddy wrote: »
    Let me correct you. As of when i posted my reply you were replying to my post which took 20 odd minutes and you had to search hi and low on google for something to prove me wrong. You've failed to do that and I will show you why you failed.
    Damn I didn't realise there was a time limit to posting a response.
    Suppose you don't have that problem when you don't have to back up your claim with sources.
    polishpaddy wrote: »
    That "wikipidea" link to a picturre of a letter is bs.

    Read this

    The relevant text is a handwritten cover letter, by Reinhard Heydrich to Martin Luther of the Foreign Office, dated February 26, 1942, forwarding the minutes of the Wannsee Conference. In the opening sentence Heydrich uses explicitly the expression, "the final solution to the Jewish question".[10] The following is a translation of the letter from German to English:
    Dear Fellow Party Member [Parteigenosse] Luther!
    Enclosed I am sending you the minutes of the proceedings that took place on January 20, 1942.
    Since the basic position regarding the practical execution of the final solution of the Jewish question has fortunately been established by now, and since there is a full agreement on the part of all agencies involved. I would like to ask you at the request of the Reich Marshal to make one of your specialist officials available for the necessary discussion of details in connection with the completion of the draft that shows the organizational, technical and material prerequisites bearing on the actual starting point of the projected solutions.
    I want to schedule the first discussion along these lines for 10:30 a.m. on March 6, 1942 at 116 Kurfürstenstrasse, Berlin. I therefore ask you that for this purpose your specialist official contact my functionary in charge there, SS-Obersturmbannführer Eichmann.
    Now is this a letter from hitler to kill jews? No it's not.
    So pray tell what does the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" mean?

    And what about this:
    Prior to the beginning of World War II, during a speech given on January 30, 1939 (the six year anniversary of his accession to power), Hitler foretold the coming Holocaust of European Jewry when he said:

    "Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!"
    And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

    When a dictator promises in speeches to wipe out the Jews, sets up a conference to organise the effort of wiping out the Jews, Builds the infrastructure to wipe out the Jews and wipes out nearly two thirds of the Jews in Europe. It's a safe bet he gave the order.
    polishpaddy wrote: »
    q) Why did Hitler want to kill EVERY Jew? (Why invade Russia for example?)

    a) There is not one order from hitler to support that assertion.
    So where exactly are you getting this from?
    How do you know he didn't give the order?

    And what does that mean?
    The rest of the Nazi government did it on the sly?
    And Hitler really was ok with the Jews?


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  • #42
    polishpaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭polishpaddy


    Diogenes wrote: »
    So what the ovens/gas chambers/mobile SS death squads were what? A misscommunication?

    You won't acknowledge what i write, so how can i answer your next question? How do we make progress when having a discussion? Acknowledge and I will gladly talk about Ovens, gas chambers and mobile ss death squads.


  • #43
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    polishpaddy wrote: »
    You won't acknowledge what i write, so how can i answer your next question? How do we make progress when having a discussion? Acknowledge and I will gladly talk about Ovens, gas chambers and mobile ss death squads.

    Okay, do you agree that there was a massive industrialised infrastructure set up to murder millions of people in Nazi Germany?


  • #44
    polishpaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭polishpaddy


    A Primal Nut wrote: »
    Joseph Goebbels:

    "With respect of the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would live to see their annihilation in it. That wasn't just a catch-word. The world war is here, and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence".

    There is nothing vague about "annihilation of the jews."

    Heinrich Himmler's diary notes:

    Jewish Question / to be exterminated like the partisans

    Both were referring to meetings with Hitler.

    Online Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/hitler-final-solution/#note-07 (which refers to sources in books/magazines)

    In addition, all other Nazi leaders who spoke of an order spoke of one from Hitler in early 1941.

    By the way, do any sources indicate that any Jews were brought to the middle east instead of killed?

    Where is that order these leaders all spoke of?What order are you referring to?


    'We shall turn Germany into a desert. There are means that will vanquish Hitler and that will be through, an absolute devastating war of extermination, using large bombers against the Nazi-Country'."

    Any idea who said that? There are documents of more orders if you spend time to read about them.    But there not hitlers orders are they?


  • #45
    polishpaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭polishpaddy


    Diogenes wrote: »
    Okay, do you agree that there was a massive industrialised infrastructure set up to murder millions of people in Nazi Germany?
    Well we have agreement so there was no order from hitler to murder millions of jews.

    Want to move onto your other 2 questions you asked me previously?


  • #46
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    polishpaddy wrote: »
    Well we have agreement so there was no order from hitler to murder millions of jews.

    No we really haven't. What exactly are you expecting/demanding? A memo.

    To: Himmler

    Re: Weekend.

    Himmler grt to c u last nite. Pls come up to teh eagles nest nxt w'knd.

    PS. PLs murder all Jews. KBT

    Hitler.

    Thats what you want?

    Leaving aside the obvious fact that Berlin was a bombed out hell hole and the Nazis destroyed massive amounts of paperwork in the days before the city fell, what exactly are you expecting to find.
    Want to move onto your other 2 questions you asked me previously?

    Theres a litany of questions that you're declining to answer and you're obsessing on this matter.

    Do you deny that there was a massive industrialised extermination industry in Germany built to facility the murder of among others, Jews? In their millions.


  • #47
    polishpaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭polishpaddy


    Diogenes wrote: »
    No we really haven't. What exactly are you expecting/demanding? A memo.

    To: Himmler

    Re: Weekend.

    Himmler grt to c u last nite. Pls come up to teh eagles nest nxt w'knd.

    PS. PLs murder all Jews. KBT

    Hitler.

    Thats what you want?

    Leaving aside the obvious fact that Berlin was a bombed out hell hole and the Nazis destroyed massive amounts of paperwork in the days before the city fell, what exactly are you expecting to find.



    Theres a litany of questions that you're declining to answer and you're obsessing on this matter.

    Do you deny that there was a massive industrialised extermination industry in Germany built to facility the murder of among others, Jews? In their millions.

    We cannot leave aside such a statement.Thats ridiculous.There is no document thats what i said and thats what is true. If you don't want to dwell on this little issue, tell me, As your going round in circles asking me other questions which i asked did u want to go back to, but you keep asking new ones....


  • #48
    Agent Smith
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 21,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭Agent Smith


    jasus thats Gas



    Or not.


  • #49
    King Mob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    polishpaddy wrote: »
    We cannot leave aside such a statement.Thats ridiculous.There is no document thats what i said and thats what is true. If you don't want to dwell on this little issue, tell me, As your going round in circles asking me other questions which i asked did u want to go back to, but you keep asking new ones....

    Well was there massive industrialised extermination industry in Germany or not?
    Do you think Hitler wouldn't have noticed it?

    And what about all the times he said he was going to exterminate the Jews?
    And all those meeting where they discussed "The Final Solution"?
    What do you think "The Final Solution" means?


  • #50
    polishpaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭polishpaddy


    Ok so your kindly putting forward Diogenes's questions for me to answer.
    Well was there massive industrialised extermination industry in Germany or not?
    Extermination of what exactly?

    One question at a time now,be nice.


  • #51
    King Mob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    polishpaddy wrote: »
    Ok so your kindly putting forward Diogenes's questions for me to answer.


    Extermination of what exactly?

    One question at a time now,be nice.

    You're kidding right?
    The extermination of Jews, Gypsies, Gays, Communists, the disabled and anyone else the Nazis deemed undesirables.
    What other extermination do you think we're taking about?

    Diogenes has asked this same question twice quite clearly.
    It's mostly a rhetorical device however because regardless of your belief it is clearly evident that an industrialised extermination program was enacted in Germany.

    The actual question is: do you think Hitler wouldn't have know about it?

    They're simple yes or no questions.


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