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Advocates of limited immigration accused of being racist.

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1235789

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    #122
    guyjohn
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 101 ✭✭guyjohn


    alastair wrote: »
    Exactly - so you're opposed to legal immigration, alongside illegal immigration - despite claiming otherwise. This flexibility with the truth is becoming something of a habit.

    I never said I was opposed to legal immigration you are fabricating.


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    #123
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    guyjohn wrote: »
    I never said I was opposed to legal immigration you are fabricating.

    You've just re-confirmed that you are opposed to legal immigration. :rolleyes:


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    #124
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    guyjohn wrote: »
    In that case they came to seek temporary employment, welfare . as a tourist or to visit relatives unless you know another reason.

    YOU CANNOT ARRIVE AND CLAIM.

    Define "temporary employment".


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    #125
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Nodin wrote: »
    YOU CANNOT ARRIVE AND CLAIM.

    Define "temporary employment".


    Arriving and Claiming is a well trodden road for many arrivals into Ireland...You most certainly can Claim....that does not,of course,assure a successful outcome,but It does allow for the introduction of enough "Grey Areas" usually catered for by the Supplementary Welfare Allowance Scheme and it's myriad elements...

    The Irish System will ALWAYS offer some support to an arriving individual meeting certain "requirements"...Knowing how to fit-that-bill is the first step,after which the system will do the rest.

    Knowledge of how that System operates is of paramount importance,and once gained gives one a certain "advantage" within one's own community.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/supplementary_welfare_allow.html

    Also of note is the differing requirements surrounding Spouses and Children of applicants,a factor which can often allow for inventive use of a "reversing-in" situation ie: one set of feet in the application system,then rapidly followed by dependants.

    The fact remains that once an individual presents with the correct "script",the Agencies of State are then very (self) restricted in how they must respond.

    It is very much a game of playing for time,with the assurance that as this time passes,the chances of being repatriated out of this country recede significantly.

    The entire process is equally,a source of gainful employment for a certain grouping within the Irish Legal and Social Representation systems,and as a result has become a self-propagating area.

    We are not alone in Europe,or the World in dealing with this,but the difference in our case is that the levels of benefit available are/were far above what the Country's Contributing Classes could be realistically expected to fund from their own Labours.

    €100 per week,and a hostel place,to an arrivee from a rural Eastern European province,would represent a significant improvement over the best he/she could expect in their own home country.

    Whilst our recent downturn has seen a significant drop in the numbers involved,the grapevine always remains live,and,it would appear,it is starting to hum again with positive vibes...:)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #126
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Arriving and Claiming is a well trodden road for many arrivals into Ireland...You most certainly can Claim....

    You cannot arrive and claim.

    If you bothered to read your own link.

    You satisfy the means test.
    You have applied for any other benefit or allowance you may be entitled to.
    You satisfy the habitual residence test
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/supplementary_welfare_allow.html


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    #127
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Nodin wrote: »
    You cannot arrive and claim.

    If you bothered to read your own link.

    You satisfy the means test.
    You have applied for any other benefit or allowance you may be entitled to.
    You satisfy the habitual residence test
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/supplementary_welfare_allow.html

    Like many such byzantine schemes,the key tends to be in identifying a lophole and exploiting it.....however as Nodin points out NOBODY can arrive and claim....can't be done...impossible.

    However ,once a suitably qualified and astute advisor gets sight of the word,EXEMPTION,it then demands full exploitation......Never happens though,I'm told....
    Exemption from the habitual residence condition for EEA nationals

    Under EU law, in certain circumstances, EEA citizens or Swiss nationals do not have to satisfy the habitual residence condition. These circumstances apply to:

    Family Benefits and
    Supplementary Welfare Allowance

    The following Irish social welfare payments, to which the HRC applies, are classified as Family Benefits under EU Regulations (pdf):

    Child Benefit
    Domiciliary Care Allowance
    Guardian's Payment (Non-Contributory)
    One-Parent Family Payment

    This means that they are payable to a person who qualifies for EU migrant worker status for dependants who are resident in Ireland or in another EEA state. However, EEA citizens or Swiss nationals who move to Ireland to look for employment are subject to the habitual residence condition in the normal way while looking for work.

    If you are an EEA national and can be considered an EU migrant worker, you may be entitled to Supplementary Welfare Allowance (SWA). To be considered an EU migrant worker you must have been in genuine employment (not casual work) since coming to Ireland. This means that people who have been employed since arriving in Ireland may be entitled to SWA even if they do not satisfy the habitual residence condition for Jobseeker's Allowance.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #128
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Like many such byzantine schemes,the key tends to be in identifying a lophole and exploiting it.....however as Nodin points out NOBODY can arrive and claim....can't be done...impossible.

    However ,once a suitably qualified and astute advisor gets sight of the word,EXEMPTION,it then demands full exploitation......Never happens though,I'm told....

    Without the habitual residence test, the only exception for Supplementary Welfare Allowance payments is the Exceptional Needs Payment - which is only a one-off payment, which hardly fits with the whole welfare tourism shtick.
    Conditions

    You will normally qualify for Supplementary Welfare Allowance if you satisfy the following conditions:
    •You are living in the State.
    •You satisfy the means test.
    •You have applied for any other benefit or allowance you may be entitled to.
    •You satisfy the habitual residence test, except for an Exceptional Needs Payment. EU/EEA workers and Swiss nationals working here will satisfy the habitual residence condition. However, people from the EU/EEA or Switzerland who move to Ireland in search of employment are subject to the habitual residence test in the normal way while looking for work.
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/supplementary_welfare_allow.html
    Exceptional Needs Payment

    An Exceptional Needs Payment is a single payment to help meet essential, once-off, exceptional expenditure, which a person could not reasonably be expected to meet out of their weekly income. For example, the payments can be for special clothing for a person who has a serious illness, bedding or cooking utensils for someone setting up a home for the first time, visiting relatives in hospital or prison, or funeral costs. You can also apply for financial help for clothing for children.
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/exceptional_needs_payments.html


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    #129
    guyjohn
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 101 ✭✭guyjohn


    alastair wrote: »
    You've just re-confirmed that you are opposed to legal immigration. :rolleyes:

    You give the impression you support illegal immigration,.


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    #130
    guyjohn
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 101 ✭✭guyjohn


    Nodin wrote: »
    YOU CANNOT ARRIVE AND CLAIM.

    Define "temporary employment".

    Seasonal work .


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    #131
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    guyjohn wrote: »
    Seasonal work .


    And unless you have 18 consecutive months "seasonal" work, you can't claim.


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    #132
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Like many such byzantine schemes(..............)....

    You cannot arrive and claim.


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    #133
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    guyjohn wrote: »
    You give the impression you support illegal immigration,.

    Not at all - I just don't care for liars - from anywhere.


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    #134
    guyjohn
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 101 ✭✭guyjohn


    alastair wrote: »
    Not at all - I just don't care for liars - from anywhere.

    You got evidence to show I am a lair that is libelous .


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    #135
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    guyjohn wrote: »
    You got evidence to show I am a lair that is libelous .
    The lies on this thread are there for everyone to see.


  • Options
    #136
    guyjohn
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 101 ✭✭guyjohn


    Nodin wrote: »
    You cannot arrive and claim.

    You can if you are clever persistent and know a loophole. There was a program on TV about Roma gypsies in the UK. They just stay there to pass the HR test then get childrens allowance for those in Romania .They send a little back and keep the rest for themselves. lovely jubbly.
    The number of PPS allocations this year in Ireland , Romania is the third highest !


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    #137
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    guyjohn wrote: »
    You can if you are clever persistent and know a loophole. There was a program on TV about Roma gypsies in the UK. They just stay there to pass the HB test then get childrens allowance for those in Romania .They send a little back and keep the rest for themselves. lovely jubbly.
    The number of PPS allocations this year in Ireland , Romania is the third highest !

    The UK has different rules to Ireland. In any event children's allowance is a family payment and excluded from the HR test.

    A PPS number gives no rights to any payment.


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    #138
    guyjohn
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 101 ✭✭guyjohn


    Nodin wrote: »
    And unless you have 18 consecutive months "seasonal" work, you can't claim.

    Some just come stay with relatives pass the HR test then get childrens allowance .


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    #139
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    guyjohn wrote: »
    Some just come stay with relatives pass the HB test then get childrens allowance .

    As I said children's allowance is excluded from the HR test.

    Exemption from the habitual residence condition for EEA nationals
    Under EU law, in certain circumstances, EEA citizens or Swiss nationals do not have to satisfy the habitual residence condition. These circumstances apply to:

    Family Benefits and
    Supplementary Welfare Allowance
    The following Irish social welfare payments, to which the HRC applies, are classified as Family Benefits under EU Regulations (pdf):

    Child Benefit
    Domiciliary Care Allowance
    Guardian's Payment (Non-Contributory)
    One-Parent Family Payment
    This means that they are payable to a person who qualifies for EU migrant worker status for dependants who are resident in Ireland or in another EEA state. However, EEA citizens or Swiss nationals who move to Ireland to look for employment are subject to the habitual residence condition in the normal way while looking for work.

    If you are an EEA national and can be considered an EU migrant worker, you may be entitled to Supplementary Welfare Allowance (SWA). To be considered an EU migrant worker you must have been in genuine employment (not casual work) since coming to Ireland. This means that people who have been employed since arriving in Ireland may be entitled to SWA even if they do not satisfy the habitual residence condition for Jobseeker's Allowance.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_assistance_payments/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.html


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    #140
    guyjohn
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 101 ✭✭guyjohn


    Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »
    The UK has different rules to Ireland. In any event children's allowance is a family payment and excluded from the HR test.

    A PPS number gives no rights to any payment.

    Then why do so many apply for PPS numbers . Why do they need to reform the Immigration and Residence Bill ?
    There are employers that facilitate those to appear as if in employment so they can claim.
    How detailed are the checks for children actually living in the home country.
    When you have large numbers of people who work together persistently to achieve a goal eg welfare or residence its possible.
    United we stand divided we fall.


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    #141
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    guyjohn wrote: »
    Then why do so many apply for PPS numbers .
    For the same reason as everyone else does - you need them to seek work. You need one if you're considering seeking work in Ireland. I've a National Insurance number for the UK. Never claimed any benefits there, but certainly worked for years there, and needed it to do so.


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    #142
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    guyjohn wrote: »
    Then why do so many apply for PPS numbers .

    You need a PPS number to get a driving licence, you need a PPS number even if you are not economically active or in receipt of SW, all all interaction with the state requires the number. Because the number in itself gives no rights, it can in effect be given to anyone.

    For Non EEA a PPS number gives no right to reside or work that can only be given through a passport stamp. For EEA a PPS number gives no right to any particular SW payment. So in effect they can give out millions of such numbers it means nothing.


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    #143
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Scofflaw wrote: »

    And that someone is a racist or xenophobe is not an ad hominem point in an immigration debate.

    Isn't it?

    Surely, as advocated by political debaters, one should attack the arguments, not the person. Sure, the arguments may be a smokescreen - but what of it? If the smokescreen is dispersed then you are either left with either [a] the truth nothing, or [c] another smokescreen. Ultimately your advocating of hand-waving away option [c] by just ascribing it to a position of xenophobia, and therefore not meriting debate, is something which imo, would be a sad excuse for the sake of convenience.

    **GODWIN'S LAW ALERT**

    The most vehement (and vocal) opponents to Fascism throughout Europe in the 1930s were Communists. The fact that they were communist didn't necessarily make their points wrong (or right, depending on your pov), although it would certainly have made their sentiments suspect. However, I have heard people say that communists breaking up Blackshirt meetings with slash-hooks was a 'good thing' as they were attacking fascists. No; rather they substituted political action with violence (possibly because they had no interest or ability to propose counter-arguments). The fact that they were 'right' was entirely incidental.


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    #144
    guyjohn
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 101 ✭✭guyjohn


    Rights to welfare payments . You suggest the state has Immigration under control and all is perfect.
    Then why do does the government want to reform the Immigration and Residence Bill. ?


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    #145
    guyjohn
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 101 ✭✭guyjohn


    alastair wrote: »
    For the same reason as everyone else does - you need them to seek work. You need one if you're considering seeking work in Ireland. I've a National Insurance number for the UK. Never claimed any benefits there, but certainly worked for years there, and needed it to do so.

    Seeking work in Ireland is rather a difficult task at present or maybe you disagree with this too !!


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    #146
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »
    As I said children's allowance is excluded from the HR test.

    Exemption from the habitual residence condition for EEA nationals
    Under EU law, in certain circumstances, EEA citizens or Swiss nationals do not have to satisfy the habitual residence condition. These circumstances apply to:

    Family Benefits and
    Supplementary Welfare Allowance
    The following Irish social welfare payments, to which the HRC applies, are classified as Family Benefits under EU Regulations (pdf):

    Child Benefit
    Domiciliary Care Allowance
    Guardian's Payment (Non-Contributory)
    One-Parent Family Payment
    This means that they are payable to a person who qualifies for EU migrant worker status for dependants who are resident in Ireland or in another EEA state. However, EEA citizens or Swiss nationals who move to Ireland to look for employment are subject to the habitual residence condition in the normal way while looking for work.

    If you are an EEA national and can be considered an EU migrant worker, you may be entitled to Supplementary Welfare Allowance (SWA). To be considered an EU migrant worker you must have been in genuine employment (not casual work) since coming to Ireland. This means that people who have been employed since arriving in Ireland may be entitled to SWA even if they do not satisfy the habitual residence condition for Jobseeker's Allowance.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_assistance_payments/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.html

    Child benefit isn't actually exempted from the Habitual Residency requirement (as the text above makes clear). Any Romas in the UK (or indeed any EEA/EU national there or here), will indeed have to pass the HR qualification to get Child Benefit, but if you pass that qualification, you're entitled to that Benefit. That's far from 'arriving and claiming'.
    With all social welfare payments in Ireland, you must satisfy the rules for each scheme to qualify. You must also be habitually resident in Ireland to qualify for the following payments:

    Blind Pension
    Carer's Allowance
    Child Benefit
    Disability Allowance
    Domiciliary Care Allowance
    Guardian's Payment (Non-Contributory)
    Jobseeker's Allowance
    One-Parent Family Payment
    State Pension (Non-Contributory)
    Supplementary Welfare Allowance
    Widow's, Widower's or Surviving Civil Partner's (Non-Contributory) Pension

    Your spouse, civil partner or cohabitant and any dependent children you have are not required to satisfy the habitual residence condition in their own right. So if you apply for a social welfare payment only you, the applicant, have to satisfy the habitual residence condition.
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_assistance_payments/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.html


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    #147
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    alastair wrote: »
    Child benefit isn't actually exempted form the Habitual Residency requirement (as the text above makes clear). Any Romas in the UK (or indeed any EEA/EU national there or here), will indeed have to pass the HR qualification to get Child Benefit, but if you pass that qualification, you're entitled to that Benefit. That's far from 'arriving and claiming'.


    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_assistance_payments/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.html

    http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/part9.pdf

    "Example 7
    An EEA national comes to Ireland with her child and works part- time. She claims One-Parent Family Benefit and Child Benefit. Under Article 73 and the State of employment principle Ireland is the competent State and the habitual residence condition is overruled. Ireland would also be competent for One-Parent Family Benefit and Child Benefit even if the child resided in another Member State and the habitual residence condition is overruled by Article 67. If the family benefits in the State where the child resides are higher this State will pay a supplement."

    I agree that the arrive and claim idea is debunked, but a small area is exempt from HR rules and that is covered by http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:166:0001:0123:en:PDF

    My understanding is that any family payment is exempt from the rule. But you are correct a person arriving from EEA can not claim for example a Job Seekers and also can not claim CA. But a family arriving and working can claim FIS or single parents and CA.


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    #148
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

    I agree that the arrive and claim idea is debunked, but a small area is exempt from HR rules and that is covered by http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:166:0001:0123:en:PDF

    My understanding is that any family payment is exempt from the rule. But you are correct a person arriving from EEA can not claim for example a Job Seekers and also can not claim CA. But a family arriving and working can claim FIS or single parents and CA.

    Ah - yes - the Child Benefit exemption from HRC is pretty niche all the same - the claimant or claimant's spouse needs to be working in Ireland to qualify:
    Child Benefit is classified as a Family Benefit under EU Regulation 883/2004. This regulation provides for exemption from general habitual residence rules for Child Benefit where either the Child Benefit claimant or cohabiting partner/spouse/civil partner is an EEA citizen and employed or self-employed and subject to PRSI in Ireland at the time of award of Child Benefit. Such an exemption does not apply to habitual residence for Jobseekers Allowance and the award of Child Benefit cannot be taken as a precedent to approve habitual residence for Jobseekers Allowance, as a determination on habitual residence was not necessary at the time of the award of Child Benefit.
    http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Habitual-Residence-Condition--Guidelines-for-Deciding-Offic.aspx#app4


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    #149
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    guyjohn wrote: »
    Seeking work in Ireland is rather a difficult task at present or maybe you disagree with this too !!

    What's that got to with anything?


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    #150
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    guyjohn wrote: »
    Rights to welfare payments . You suggest the state has Immigration under control and all is perfect.
    A driving license is a welfare payment?

    guyjohn wrote: »
    Then why do does the government want to reform the Immigration and Residence Bill. ?
    Again - you have no idea what reforms the bill might apply. The 2010 bill you keep referring to is dead - it dissolved with the last Dail. What's quite clear is that no-one involved in either bill has suggested that immigration was out of control.


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    #151
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    guyjohn wrote: »
    Seeking work in Ireland is rather a difficult task at present or maybe you disagree with this too !!

    Seeking work is pretty easy in fact in involves looking for a job. Finding well paid jobs in certain fields that can be difficult. So yes I disagree with your Statement.


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