Irish Water Discussion {MERGE}

chasm · 25-10-2014 2:24am

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Interesting development locally ...... there are houses on a group water scheme, who received their letter and returned it as appropriate == not a customer due to being on a group water scheme.

Today sub-contractors for IW began digging up at the side of the road to expose the pipes and fit IW water meters.

As far as I am aware those pipes would be 'private property' and to do this work is deliberate damage to private property without any permission to do so.

I believe this has also happened in other locations, but I have not read anything about what the consequences of those actions were.

Has anyone got information about such events?

Something like this happened to a relation of mine. They are on a group water scheme and have a meter through that scheme. IW came out a few months ago and removed the original meter and installed an IW one. Relation told them they were on a private scheme but they installed new meter any way. They contacted the guy in charge of their scheme, who then contacted IW and again explained the case to them - also requested the return of the original meter that was removed as it had not been read! He informed my relations that he would get it sorted and that they had nothing to worry about, that the scheme is private and they would not owe IW anything.

Heard no more about it until recently, IW were back out to read the meter or something and my relative went out to the guy and explained the situation again, he had a chat with the guy from the group scheme and from what i was told it was decided that the IW meter would be left in but they are not classed as customers. I don't think they have been able to locate the original meter!
The IW guy told my relation that the County council had previously been out and surveyed the houses in the area and passed those details to IW for the metering. There are about 5 or 6 houses on their lane, the first 2 are on a public water scheme and it appears the county council assumed other houses further up were on the same scheme!

Johnboy1951 · 25-10-2014 10:18am

As an update ..... it seems that some 6 houses were interfered with by IW sub contractors, and those six houses are well within the scheme ..... meaning that houses on either side of them are also in the scheme.

No doubt there is some sort of mix-up (how that could happen I have no idea) ...... but I must say that I would be really pissed if IW came along and stole my meter and replaced it with one of theirs, with no permission from me to do so.
No doubt those meters cost the home owners quite a bit when fitted.

It is surprising that home owners did not call the police ..... what those subbies did was theft and interfering with private property.

Little CuChulainn · 25-10-2014 11:30am

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

As an update ..... it seems that some 6 houses were interfered with by IW sub contractors, and those six houses are well within the scheme ..... meaning that houses on either side of them are also in the scheme.

No doubt there is some sort of mix-up (how that could happen I have no idea) ...... but I must say that I would be really pissed if IW came along and stole my meter and replaced it with one of theirs, with no permission from me to do so.
No doubt those meters cost the home owners quite a bit when fitted.

It is surprising that home owners did not call the police ..... what those subbies did was theft and interfering with private property.

Not if it was a mistake. Theft requires an element of deception.

Johnboy1951 · 25-10-2014 12:05pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Not if it was a mistake. Theft requires an element of deception.

That would make for an interesting side-discussion as the owners informed the subbies they did not want their meters removed ...

Theft.

4.—(1) Subject to section 5 , a person is guilty of theft if he or she dishonestly appropriates property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it.

(2) For the purposes of this section a person does not appropriate property without the consent of its owner if—

(a) the person believes that he or she has the owner's consent, or would have the owner's consent if the owner knew of the appropriation of the property and the circumstances in which it was appropriated, or

As the meters were taken away ..... and apparently are being disposed of in some manner ..... the owners are being deprived of the property and their ownership of the meters (and indeed ownership of the pipes themselves).

Johnboy1951 · 25-10-2014 12:11pm

chasm wrote: »

Something like this happened to a relation of mine. They are on a group water scheme and have a meter through that scheme. IW came out a few months ago and removed the original meter and installed an IW one. Relation told them they were on a private scheme but they installed new meter any way. They contacted the guy in charge of their scheme, who then contacted IW and again explained the case to them - also requested the return of the original meter that was removed as it had not been read! He informed my relations that he would get it sorted and that they had nothing to worry about, that the scheme is private and they would not owe IW anything.

Heard no more about it until recently, IW were back out to read the meter or something and my relative went out to the guy and explained the situation again, he had a chat with the guy from the group scheme and from what i was told it was decided that the IW meter would be left in but they are not classed as customers. I don't think they have been able to locate the original meter!
The IW guy told my relation that the County council had previously been out and surveyed the houses in the area and passed those details to IW for the metering. There are about 5 or 6 houses on their lane, the first 2 are on a public water scheme and it appears the county council assumed other houses further up were on the same scheme!

The question I would have in that situation is this:

Has ownership of the IW meter been passed to the group water scheme, or has IW retained ownership?

It would be an interesting situation if IW retained ownership of the meter .....

Losty Dublin · 25-10-2014 12:11pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That would make for an interesting side-discussion as the owners informed the subbies they did not want their meters removed ...

As the meters were taken away ..... and apparently are being disposed of in some manner ..... the owners are being deprived of the property and their ownership of the meters.

You don't own the meters; the water provider owns them so it's unlikely that you are being deprived of your property by they removing the meter.

I presume that you have been in contact with whomever it is that supplies you with water? What have they said is their position?

Johnboy1951 · 25-10-2014 12:15pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

You don't own the meters; the water provider owns them so it's unlikely that you are being deprived of your property by they removing the meter.

I presume that you have been in contact with whomever it is that supplies you with water? What have they said is their position?

Those who paid for the meters and their installation (on their property mostly) are the owners of the meters in the group water scheme.

Also the pipework that carries the water is in joint private ownership in a group water scheme.

Any interference with either pipework or meters is interference with private property.

Little CuChulainn · 25-10-2014 12:17pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That would make for an interesting side-discussion as the owners informed the subbies they did not want their meters removed ...

As the meters were taken away ..... and apparently are being disposed of in some manner ..... the owners are being deprived of the property and their ownership of the meters (and indeed ownership of the pipes themselves).

You conveniently skipped over the important word in the crime, "dishonestly".

Johnboy1951 · 25-10-2014 12:21pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You conveniently skipped over the important word in the crime, "dishonestly".

Hehehehehe ..... I know of no way someone can take my property without permission, having been fully informed of ownership etc, except 'dishonestly' ...... but maybe there is some means to do so 'honestly' that I am unaware of.

Little CuChulainn · 25-10-2014 12:26pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Hehehehehe ..... I know of no way someone can take my property without permission, having been fully informed of ownership etc, except 'dishonestly' ...... but maybe there is some means to do so 'honestly' that I am unaware of.

If they didn't believe your claim and believed what their boss had told them i can't see how they could be accused of dishonesty. It wouldn't exactly be the first time they heard that excuse.

Losty Dublin · 25-10-2014 12:28pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Those who paid for the meters and their installation (on their property mostly) are the owners of the meters in the group water scheme.

Also the pipework that carries the water is in joint private ownership in a group water scheme.

Any interference with either pipework or meters is interference with private property.

I would sincerely doubt that you personally own the pipe and meter installed in a group scheme, even if you paid installation fees but am open to correction. If you feel that you actually do now them, you need to contact your group scheme and/or solicitor to clarify all of this, what happened in relation to the removal of your previous infrastructure and to see if you can take this further if you have been wronged.

Johnboy1951 · 25-10-2014 2:00pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I would sincerely doubt that you personally own the pipe and meter installed in a group scheme, even if you paid installation fees but am open to correction. If you feel that you actually do now them, you need to contact your group scheme and/or solicitor to clarify all of this, what happened in relation to the removal of your previous infrastructure and to see if you can take this further if you have been wronged.

All I can suggest is that you check what a private group water scheme is.

Losty Dublin · 25-10-2014 3:10pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

All I can suggest is that you check what a private group water scheme is.

I know what they are. All I am doubting is that an account holder actually owns their own meter, pipes etc in one, though I did say that I am open to correction on this (And proof of same, please.).

Fred Swanson · 25-10-2014 4:20pm

This post has been deleted.

FreudianSlippers · 28-10-2014 9:51am

Isn't the key with regard to the GWS whether you have a connection to the public sewer or not? If you have GWS, but you access the public sewer, UÉ needs to know how much water is going into your property because they assess on an in/out basis.

Paulw · 28-10-2014 10:10am

Just curious, since it doesn't impact me at all, but on what legal basis can IW charge a landlord for water services if a tenant doesn't register? ESB/Board Gais can't charge a landlord if a tenant doesn't pay, so how can IW claim they will?

Little CuChulainn · 28-10-2014 10:46am

Paulw wrote: »

Just curious, since it doesn't impact me at all, but on what legal basis can IW charge a landlord for water services if a tenant doesn't register? ESB/Board Gais can't charge a landlord if a tenant doesn't pay, so how can IW claim they will?

I presume if they dont have details of a tenant they deal with it as an unoccupied property, for which the owner is responable.

Paulw · 28-10-2014 10:55am

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I presume if they dont have details of a tenant they deal with it as an unoccupied property, for which the owner is responable.

But, I assume, if it went to court (because a landlord has no obligation to pay for a utility they are not using), then the court would side with the landlord, and IW would be left having to find and then chase a tenant, since the landlord has no legal obligation to give any details about the tenant to a utility company?

Peregrinus · 28-10-2014 11:09am

The water is supplied to the landlord's property and if anyone other than the landlord is in occupation of that property, the landlord should know about it. If the landlord's defence to a claim for water charges is that someone else is occupying the property, he's going to have to adduce evidence to that effect, and that evidence is likely to identify the tenant.

Ogham · 28-10-2014 11:12am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Isn't the key with regard to the GWS whether you have a connection to the public sewer or not? If you have GWS, but you access the public sewer, UÉ needs to know how much water is going into your property because they assess on an in/out basis.

If someone on a public sewer is not a customer of IW for supply - they will not normally meter them and they will then pay the "assessed" charge for waste only. ( Situation liek this will be pretty rare)

Paulw · 28-10-2014 11:15am

Peregrinus wrote: »

The water is supplied to the landlord's property and if anyone other than the landlord is in occupation of that property, the landlord should know about it. If the landlord's defence to a claim for water charges is that someone else is occupying the property, he's going to have to adduce evidence to that effect, and that evidence is likely to identify the tenant.

To court, yes, of course he has to identify the resident, but not to IW. I can't see anything in the Water Services Act(s) that compel the landlord to identify the tenant.

Peregrinus · 28-10-2014 11:40am

But it's very much in his interests to. And you don't usually have to pass a law to compel people to act in a way that their own interest would lead them to act. The sooner the landlord tells IW the identity of the tenant, the sooner he stops being bothered by demands, and later court actions, from IW to get him to pay for the water consumed on the premises.

Little CuChulainn · 28-10-2014 12:03pm

Paulw wrote: »

But, I assume, if it went to court (because a landlord has no obligation to pay for a utility they are not using), then the court would side with the landlord, and IW would be left having to find and then chase a tenant, since the landlord has no legal obligation to give any details about the tenant to a utility company?

The landlord would have to offer some proof to counter the assumption he is not liable. This could be the tenant or simply the record of prtb registration. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Grolschevik · 17-11-2014 12:30am

So the Gardai are impersonating protestors and engaging in violence to discredit them?

Also they pepper-sprayed women and children yesterday?

Of course, you've heard nothing about this because the Denis O'Brien owned media is photoshopping the truth out of existence. Or something...

Christ, I despair.

Losty Dublin · 17-11-2014 12:54am

Grolschevik wrote: »

So the Gardai are impersonating protestors and engaging in violence to discredit them?

Also they pepper-sprayed women and children yesterday?

Of course, you've heard nothing about this because the Denis O'Brien owned media is photoshopping the truth out of existence. Or something...

Christ, I despair.

Happily the Horse has a mouth, so to speak

https://www.facebook.com/tony.gavin.948

Johnboy1951 · 17-11-2014 1:34am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Happily the Horse has a mouth, so to speak

https://www.facebook.com/tony.gavin.948

What does this mean?

Not being on facebook I have no idea what you linked to except someone's facebook page/whatever.

Losty Dublin · 17-11-2014 1:38am

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What does this mean?

Not being on facebook I have no idea what you linked to except someone's facebook page/whatever.

The photographer who took the photos was alleged to have edited the photos by some. In the link he refutes the charge and posts up 5 photos of the brick throwing incident.

Johnboy1951 · 17-11-2014 1:56am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The photographer who took the photos was alleged to have edited the photos by some. In the link he refutes the charge and posts up 5 photos of the brick throwing incident.

Thanks

..... but this does not impact on the allegations posted, does it?

So the Gardai are impersonating protestors and engaging in violence to discredit them?

Little CuChulainn · 17-11-2014 8:26am

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Thanks

..... but this does not impact on the allegations posted, does it?

The photo posted with those allegations has been doctored. When you compare a before and after it's evident that the "stab vest" has been coloured in to make if look all navy where before there was a light coloured stripe. Add to that the fact there is zero evidence to support it at all makes it a pretty weak allegation.

garhjw · 17-11-2014 8:39am

Some loser posts bull on the web and you simpletons take it as gospel? Good lads

MarkAnthony · 17-11-2014 8:45am

In other news, Gazza has let himself go a bit:

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/paul-gascoigne-released-police-after-4204183

Grolschevik · 17-11-2014 11:18am

garhjw wrote: »

Some loser posts bull on the web and you simpletons take it as gospel? Good lads

I think you'll find that we are despairing of the fact that other people are taking that bull seriously.

Johnboy1951 · 17-11-2014 1:07pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The photo posted with those allegations has been doctored. When you compare a before and after it's evident that the "stab vest" has been coloured in to make if look all navy where before there was a light coloured stripe. Add to that the fact there is zero evidence to support it at all makes it a pretty weak allegation.

Thanks for the explanation!

amber2 · 23-11-2014 5:09pm

Put this up on a thread water meters in politics probably more suited here as it's really a legalities related question

Got a leaflet on Friday in the letterbox stating that meters are being installed in our area from Monday on or within three days of the 24/11/ listing the do's and dont's of using certain appliances during this time. So went out this morning only to find that the meter was in fact installed Thursday or Friday and is up to 160 litres already so has been in there for some days. So why give a signed leaflet to residents giving an instillation date at all. Is this fitted illegally. Rang irish water as as usual they have no idea why this would happen. Quoted the serial number and irish water have no record of any water meters being installed in our area even though all the houses around have had their meters installed too.

Little CuChulainn · 23-11-2014 5:36pm

amber2 wrote: »

Put this up on a thread water meters in politics probably more suited here as it's really a legalities related question

Got a leaflet on Friday in the letterbox stating that meters are being installed in our area from Monday on or within three days of the 24/11/ listing the do's and dont's of using certain appliances during this time. So went out this morning only to find that the meter was in fact installed Thursday or Friday and is up to 160 litres already so has been in there for some days. So why give a signed leaflet to residents giving an instillation date at all. Is this fitted illegally. Rang irish water as as usual they have no idea why this would happen.

I think the legislation states that they have to give a weeks notice. But the question becomes, if they don't give the notice, what could a court do? I'd say the most you are looking at is compensation for any inconvenience caused.

Losty Dublin · 23-11-2014 6:09pm

amber2 wrote: »

Got a leaflet on Friday in the letterbox stating that meters are being installed in our area from Monday on or within three days of the 24/11/ listing the do's and dont's of using certain appliances during this time. So went out this morning only to find that the meter was in fact installed Thursday or Friday....

Friday is within 3 days, is it not?

amber2 · 23-11-2014 7:04pm

It's either on or with in three days from the 24/11 instillation begins in my area. From,, so I assume it's beginning on that date but in fact the meter was installed last Thursday with no record of it being installed on the system held as of today by Irish water, when quoting the meter serial number.

Irish water have now rang back agologised for this and are raising the issue with a manager to contact next week, so it would seem that there is an issue. So If you do get a notice ensure that the meter hasn't already been installed.

23-11-2014 8:03pm

amber2 wrote: »

It's either on or with in three days from the 24/11 instillation begins in my area. From,, so I assume it's beginning on that date but in fact the meter was installed last Thursday with no record of it being installed on the system held as of today by Irish water, when quoting the meter serial number.

Irish water have now rang back agologised for this and are raising the issue with a manager to contact next week, so it would seem that there is an issue. So If you do get a notice ensure that the meter hasn't already been installed.

Why? What difference does it make? You clearly didn't experience any difficulties while it was being installed.

amber2 · 23-11-2014 8:11pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why? What difference does it make? You clearly didn't experience any difficulties while it was being installed.

Why give notice with a list of do's and Dont's then.

Also not that it matters but the ball cock in the attic stuck open cause crap got stuck in the line, bit inconvenient alright.

23-11-2014 9:14pm

amber2 wrote: »

Why give notice with a list of do's and Dont's then.

Also not that it matters but the ball cock in the attic stuck open cause crap got stuck in the line, bit inconvenient alright.

I mean from a legal point of view. They have to install them. You legally can't prevent that. If they install them in a manner which caused so little inconvenience to you that you were actually unaware that they had even been installed, isn't that a positive thing?

conorh91 · 23-11-2014 10:18pm

amber2 wrote: »

Irish water have now rang back agologised for this and are raising the issue with a manager to contact next week, so it would seem that there is an issue.

Raising "the issue" with a manager is no more a sign of a legitimate grievance than a checkout-girl alerting her manager that a naked man is doing arabesques and pirouettes in the vegetable aisle.

Telephone-support staff are very poorly paid. Any query that cannot be answered rationally is above their pay grade. That includes dealing with cranks. I'm not accusing you of being a crank, I'm saying that cranks often get referred to managers.

FreudianSlippers · 24-11-2014 10:07am

Are "days" defined in the legislation? I presume they'd be business days.

Grolschevik · 24-11-2014 2:05pm

"...we have been clearly told by our lawyers it will not stand up under Irish contract law.”

Anyone got an opinion on this?

Context: Irish Examiner article - http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cwsnsncwqlcw/rss2/

"More than 17,000 people have been duped into signing up to Irish Water, despite returning packs to say they have no interest in the company ... However, 17,400 of the packs have been sent back without being filled in by protesters who are opposed to charges ... While this makes it clear those involved do not want to become Irish Water customers, the company has previously confirmed that any returned packs will result in the person or their address being automatically signed up."

TheChizler · 24-11-2014 2:40pm

Grolschevik wrote: »

"...we have been clearly told by our lawyers it will not stand up under Irish contract law.”

Anyone got an opinion on this?

Context: Irish Examiner article - http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cwsnsncwqlcw/rss2/

Maybe, if it was a contract. But AFAIK the form is to update their details basically, to let them to know to charge you less than the max rate. You'll get a bill regardless of the status of the form.

Little CuChulainn · 24-11-2014 2:56pm

Grolschevik wrote: »

"...we have been clearly told by our lawyers it will not stand up under Irish contract law.”

Anyone got an opinion on this?

Context: Irish Examiner article - http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cwsnsncwqlcw/rss2/

"More than 17,000 people have been duped into signing up to Irish Water, despite returning packs to say they have no interest in the company ... However, 17,400 of the packs have been sent back without being filled in by protesters who are opposed to charges ... While this makes it clear those involved do not want to become Irish Water customers, the company has previously confirmed that any returned packs will result in the person or their address being automatically signed up."

You are a customer if you use the water or sewer system. Doesn't matter if you want to be or not. This is set out in legislation so contract law doesn't apply. Only a constitutional challenge can cancel it out.

FreudianSlippers · 24-11-2014 2:58pm

Contract would be implied by cross-consideration anyway.

Grolschevik · 24-11-2014 3:14pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You are a customer if you use the water or sewer system. Doesn't matter if you want to be or not. This is set out in legislation so contract law doesn't apply. Only a constitutional challenge can cancel it out.

The bit I was interested in was the spokesman saying that "their lawyers had said".

So essentially it's a case of "it won't stand up under Irish contract law, because it's not about contract law".

AniaH · 04-01-2015 9:54pm

Hello guys,

I am writing an essay about local government, new public management and Irish water. I am having a very hard time to find any an up to date legal article about this topic.. There are plenty articles in the newspapers but I need something something "more legal".. Could anybody advice me some good legal article to start with? Went on westlaw.ie, JSTOR and hein-on-line.. Thank you.

04-01-2015 11:01pm

AniaH wrote: »

Hello guys,

I am writing an essay about local government, new public management and Irish water. I am having a very hard time to find any an up to date legal article about this topic.. There are plenty articles in the newspapers but I need something something "more legal".. Could anybody advice me some good legal article to start with? Went on westlaw.ie, JSTOR and hein-on-line.. Thank you.

Is this what you're after? http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2013/en.act.2013.0006.pdf
http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Water/WaterServices/Legislation/
http://www.water.ie/news/water-services-%28no.2%29-act/

AniaH · 05-01-2015 2:29pm

Thank you Maryanne84, I have these pages already. I am looking for the articles written by legal academics who tackle the problem from the policy, regulation and local government law point of view.

Irish Water Discussion {MERGE}

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