National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda · 13-10-2014 1:20pm

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Another generation? I doubt that. Not in this country which is in love with the mobile phone.....

Edit: See above post and link - didn't know the figures but doesn't surprise me.

you can also look up vodafones stats, 61% of their phone base is a smartphone user, and this is rapidly growing

yuloni · 13-10-2014 9:27pm

This post has been deleted.

ukoda · 13-10-2014 9:48pm

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's amazing how you can write so much and make no clear point.

As has already been noted, passing location based data to emergency services can be done fairly easily with some cooperation of parties involved.

The point im making is - Loc8 is not a good solution to aiding emergency services calls in unfamiliar areas.

Sending cell tower data to the emergency services has been used for years in the US. What I am proposing is using the Phones location services (Which is a mix of GPS chip, cell tower and wifi if available) to transmit the phones location to emergency services

The FCC in the US are pushing hard for the telecoms company's involved to send location data more accurately, The EU Is currently reviewing the use of E-GNSS combined with Galileo sats for 112 calls

The future of emergency services knowing your location IS NOT a postcode of any shape or form.

If you want to know the future of emergency services easily finding you... Have a read of this http://www.gsa.europa.eu/news/how-enable-better-location-emergency-calls-galileo-and-112

It's called E112, and the U.S. already has a similar program in place.

this is the modern solution for emergency services. not Loc8code

A trial project currently underway is using a smartphone capable of recognising when an emergency call is made, which causes it to activate GNSS and Wi-Fi to collect location data. The data is then sent as a SMS text to the emergency number where it is verified and correlated with the emergency call. The trial has shown good results in urban, rural and domestic environments, including use in a moving vehicle.

Results like these have convinced Thales Alenia Space’s Bruno Gagnou that GNSS is the right answer for E112 positioning. “The technology is reliable and accurate,” he said. “With obvious benefits for society, lives will be saved, the security of citizens enhanced, and European industry will be supported.”

yuloni · 13-10-2014 10:14pm

This post has been deleted.

ukoda · 13-10-2014 10:16pm

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

because its fricking awkward, completely user unfriendly and generally an outdated solution that no one will use.

Please read the article i linked to.

and if the ES think Loc8 is so great and can save lives. then why not team up with them and launch a national awareness marketing campaign to promote it as a life saving service? Loc8 has been around for 4 years now and they've had plenty of time to get up off their butts and market it, but no they used it for their own purposes (haulage) and did F all else with it in 4 years. and now they are complaining the government didn't hand them a contract for the national postcode. well the reason for that is simple. Loc8 is useless as a national postcode.

im sick to death of listening to the loc8 code promoters completely miss the point that a national postcode needs a database behind it if its to be used for anything more than sending a truck to my house.

yuloni · 13-10-2014 10:28pm

This post has been deleted.

ukoda · 13-10-2014 10:33pm

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

mobile phone manufactures allow any 3 third party access the location services of their device once the user grants permission. go have a look at the location services menu of your phone. what an incredibly weak thing to focus on.

and no i don't agree that its "job done" with Loc8code, i would say its a half arsed attempt thats doomed to fail given its awkwardness.

yuloni · 13-10-2014 10:43pm

This post has been deleted.

ukoda · 13-10-2014 10:47pm

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

and now 2 years later after this pilot....nothing has come of it and still 99% of the population have no idea what a loc8code is and no other local authority has adopted them, thats a real success story alright

sigh...

yuloni · 13-10-2014 11:02pm

This post has been deleted.

ukoda · 13-10-2014 11:04pm

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

nope, why don't you tell me how many used it?

(and just so we are clear, i never claimed no one used it, i claimed the general public still don't know about it and no other authority adopted loc8codes for this purpose, so it did not become the 'norm' and was not adopted national as the standard, read what I'm actually saying)

yuloni · 13-10-2014 11:14pm

This post has been deleted.

a65b2cd · 13-10-2014 11:27pm

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So where are we at? There appears to be three main proposals and the one each person prefers really depends on the problem they are trying to solve!

1. Give every address point a unique text address. This approach solves the difficulties caused by non-unique address points in a direct manner but it involves a change to at least one-third of existing addresses. This solution would be useful for both finding an address and for delivering post to it but there are concerns around public opposition to changes in existing addresses. It tries to anticipate new buildings by using distance from junctions etc. to number locations.

2. Eircode has been designed primarily as a postcode. The source file is a register of address points. There will be important benefits such as a more complete and structured register of addresses. Amendments could be made to any incorrect X/Y coordinates associated with these addresses without having an impact on the related Eircode. This approach requires a relatively small change to the existing situation i.e. adding an Eircode as the last line of your address. It avoids anticipating new buildings by not allocating sequential codes to the existing stock of buildings.

3. Use modern navigation technology to create a location code based on X/Y coordinates. It does not require a text address and is not designed to improve routine delivery of mail. Hence it does not set out to associate only one code to each postal address point. It can be used to identify any location not just an address. It can easily accommodate new buildings.

ukoda · 13-10-2014 11:28pm

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

how can you claim its working if you've absolutely no idea if anyone is using it?!

the point i made in my previous post stands. no other authority adopted it and it did not become the norm or used nationally.

I maintain Loc8 is not a good solution for use in emergency situations and I've already shown the better alternative that the EU is working on (which has nothing to do with postcodes)

i have never claimed eircode is any better than Loc8 in this scenario. Eircode will help with rural house call outs, it will not help with the "I'm in the middle of joe murphy's field" type calls - the location aware call to 112 is the solution here.

Also, i have never claimed eircode won the contract because it can help the ES.... i don't think anyone on this thread has claimed that!

All I'm saying is, eircode serves the purpose as a national postcode, i refute people claiming Loc8 is the modern solution that should have been chosen because it helps the ES, i think this idea of opening the Point8 app, generating a code, remembering the code, repeating the code to an operator is ridiculous and looks completely redundant when you look at E112 as a real solution.

yuloni · 13-10-2014 11:46pm

This post has been deleted.

recedite · 14-10-2014 12:13am

ukoda wrote: »

(and just so we are clear, i never claimed no one used it, i claimed the general public still don't know about it and no other authority adopted loc8codes for this purpose, so it did not become the 'norm' and was not adopted national as the standard, read what I'm actually saying)

Loc8 was not adopted as the national standard, it was not even considered during the tendering process, which process was slammed by the EU for failing to facilitate indigenous SME's.

Most Irish people do not use any "postcode", they never have. But they will use whichever one is adopted by the state as the national standard, even if it is a crock of $hit. That's because the state will spend taxpayers money promoting it, and will require it to be used when paying the Property Tax.
If even a small minority of people (and state agencies) are using loc8, despite it having no official endorsement, and no state funding, they must be using it because it is an elegant solution with a real and ongoing utility.
This genuine utility is something eircode does not have. Its take up by the public will be based only on compulsion and state subsidies.

ukoda · 14-10-2014 6:31am

yuloni wrote: »

A quick Google already shows me 3 prominent authorities using Loc8

SDCC: http://www.sdcc.ie/the-council/about-us/customer-care/directions
Laois CoCo: http://www.laois.ie/contactus/
HSE: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/3/hospitals/ulh/ennis/

You do realise in the example of the life-bouys... know one needs to know anything about Loc8 until the ES ask... "whats the Loc8 on that life-bouy" = location delivered

Otherwise, I'm not going back into e112/e911. The concept is what the ES need, no doubt, but I won't think about it again until I see it working. That is a long way off and it might never happen - both you and me know that

Finally, Point8 was designed so people could generate and navigate to Loc8 codes on the fly. If the ES joined with Loc8... Point8 would be replaced with something designed specifically for the task. Jeez

Those authorities were already using it. As I said no one else has adopted it in 2 years and it hasn't been widely used at all

And exactly, people don't need to know about loc8 to read them from a bouy. (They may as well have put markers on them like the motorways, loc8 added no extra value) Which is far different to generating their own on the fly via an app. Which is what I claim is awkward and will never take off

E112 is the modern solution for ES and it will take off. Loc8 is like an awkward solution that has so many inherent problems to be effective.

ukoda · 14-10-2014 6:34am

recedite wrote: »

Loc8 was not adopted as the national standard, it was not even considered during the tendering process, which process was slammed by the EU for failing to facilitate indigenous SME's.

I'm not talking about it being adopted as the national standard for postcodes. I was referring to it being adopted as the national standard for all bouys in Ireland and by all local authority's for its life saving abilities?

People used loc8 because there was no alternative. But not to take away from loc8 it is a very good navigation code. I just feel it's not suitable as a national postcode.

tvc15 · 14-10-2014 8:25am

recedite wrote: »

Loc8 was not adopted as the national standard, it was not even considered during the tendering process, which process was slammed by the EU for failing to facilitate indigenous SME's.

Most Irish people do not use any "postcode", they never have. But they will use whichever one is adopted by the state as the national standard, even if it is a crock of $hit. That's because the state will spend taxpayers money promoting it, and will require it to be used when paying the Property Tax.
If even a small minority of people (and state agencies) are using loc8, despite it having no official endorsement, and no state funding, they must be using it because it is an elegant solution with a real and ongoing utility.
This genuine utility is something eircode does not have. Its take up by the public will be based only on compulsion and state subsidies.

I would largely agree with this other than take up only based on compulsion. My main hope for Eircode is easier delivery of takeaway food to my address! That's based not on government compulsion but on the fact that its a national postcode and more likely to be used

Curly Judge · 17-10-2014 1:03pm

At the meeting yesterday on Pearse St. one of the interesting little snippet let slip by John Duggan, who spoke for Eircode, was that P.A Consultants had got the gig to provide oversight to the implementation of the postcode contract.
This was supposed to go for tender but they appear to have been appointed without any tender process being entered into.
Add to that the fact that PA Consultants and their senior staff have been head neck and heels involved in fashioning the whole structure and set up of the post code project.
So....effectively, they will be pronouncing on their own work and competence.
Can anyone give a guess at what conclusion they will come to?

SpaceTime · 17-10-2014 1:33pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are assuming everyone has a smart phone and there is adequate coverage.

The first project should have been to solve the lack of precise addresses in rural Ireland - that has not been done.

The actual design chosen, from the little we know about it, is flawed in many ways. It is a pity there has not been public discussion about the design.

In my opinion, a numeric post code has overwhelming advantages, and following the phone numbering system also has advantages. A 5 digit code that gets down to 100 or so addresses would be good to start with, and leave the precise code for Government use, and let them pay for the maintenance of it.

Everyone doesn't have a smartphone but Ireland has one of the highest penetrations of smartphones in the world. Most people have one and in a few years it's likely that everyone will.

We have more mobile phones than people.

They don't exclusively rely on smarphones for rescues in Iceland but it's a major help.

You can't just always assume the lowest common denominator of technology either.

The app can send information via SMS so it doesn't always require data coverage. All it does is transmit your GPS coordinates via SMS or EDGE, 3G, 4G if that's available.

You might as well make use of technology when it's available.

For a 112 call from the side of a road it's very very useful to be able to send your precise location rather than some vague notion.

This kind of thing doesn't need any codes at all. It's pure GPS.

Iceland's postal code system (3 digit codes) would be next to useless for locating someome and they just signpost people's first names or house names in rural areas. There didn't seem to be any road names, just road numbers similar to Ireland.

Sign would literally say Björk

> 1km

larchill · 17-10-2014 3:06pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Sign would literally say Björk
> 1km

@ least they have some sort of indicator where people are

my3cents · 17-10-2014 3:58pm

larchill wrote: »

@ least they have some sort of indicator where people are

Try that in Ireland and someone would turn the sign around :rolleyes:

L1011 · 17-10-2014 7:11pm

my3cents wrote: »

Try that in Ireland and someone would turn the sign around :rolleyes:

Which is why you mount signs on two poles.

recedite · 17-10-2014 7:20pm

Curly Judge wrote: »

So....effectively, they will be pronouncing on their own work and competence.
Can anyone give a guess at what conclusion they will come to?

A bit like the guy who built the Priory Hall apartments, and then self-certified that they complied with all the building regulations. What could possibly go wrong...

ukoda · 17-10-2014 10:24pm

Curly Judge wrote: »

At the meeting yesterday on Pearse St. one of the interesting little snippet let slip by John Duggan, who spoke for Eircode, was that P.A Consultants had got the gig to provide oversight to the implementation of the postcode contract.
This was supposed to go for tender but they appear to have been appointed without any tender process being entered into.
Add to that the fact that PA Consultants and their senior staff have been head neck and heels involved in fashioning the whole structure and set up of the post code project.
So....effectively, they will be pronouncing on their own work and competence.
Can anyone give a guess at what conclusion they will come to?

Anything else worth mentioning from that meeting?

Bray Head · 17-10-2014 10:30pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The first project should have been to solve the lack of precise addresses in rural Ireland - that has not been done.

This point has been thrown about on this thread a lot. It is both relevant and irrelevant!

First, it is irrelevant as any type of postCODE chosen would not solve this problem.

Second, it IS relevant, as it illustrates what eircode will NOT attempt to do. It is not trying to replace or augment the existing address system in rural Ireland which we can all agree is a mess. That was a lost cause 100 years ago even. Setting up a sensible address system from scratch would be nice but it would be HUGELY controversial, likely to encounter mass resistance from those who like their existing "address" thank-you-very-much and would be VASTLY more expensive.

Overlaying this messy address system with a system of unique codes makes sense. Whether is is a Loc8-type or an eircode-type is a matter largely of taste. Largely, I prefer the latter. But arguing that Ireland needs a reformed address system is a completely different issue - perhaps for a different thread even!

PS: Apologies for the caps, I don't seem to be able to use italics, etc, as a sub-50 post user.

18-10-2014 12:44am

Bray Head wrote: »

PS: Apologies for the caps, I don't seem to be able to use italics, etc, as a sub-50 post user.

Just type at the start and at the end (without the spaces)

that should work.

Sheldons Brain · 18-10-2014 4:35pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Overlaying this messy address system with a system of unique codes makes sense. Whether is is a Loc8-type or an eircode-type is a matter largely of taste. Largely, I prefer the latter. But arguing that Ireland needs a reformed address system is a completely different issue - perhaps for a different thread even!

I don't need an improved address, like I don't need a new name. But I can use a bank a/c number or PRSI number where appropriate without changing my name. This is the role of postcodes.

SpaceTime · 22-10-2014 5:08pm

my3cents wrote: »

Try that in Ireland and someone would turn the sign around :rolleyes:

They've developed this amazing Icelandic technology which Irish local authorities are still investigating. It's called 'the bolt'

There are holes on the pole and the sign is affixed to it by magic in such a way that it cannot be easily turned.

They've also got the incredible grooved signpost a technology so advanced it would be difficult to explain to nonscientific types.

Remarkable what can be done with science!

Relying on elves to guard the signs simply didn't work.

TheBustedFlush · 22-10-2014 5:13pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

They've developed this amazing Icelandic technology which Irish local authorities are still investigating. It's called 'the bolt'

There are holes on the pole and the sign is affixed to it by magic in such a way that it cannot be easily turned.

Remarkable what can be done with science!

Relying on elves to guard the signs simply didn't work.

Ah but the fellas who puts the hole in the pole, forgot about the hole in the ground. Now they just turn the pole around.

Bray Head · 27-10-2014 9:50am

Article in today's Irish Times from Barry O'Halloran. As a 'new user' I cannot be trusted to post the link apparently so would appreciate if someone else would.

Not too much new that intrepid followers of this thread won't be familar with.

"At some point next year, all 2.2 million individual addresses in the Republic will be assigned their own seven-digit post code – to be known as an Eircode – that will identify them from all others in the State.
It has been a long time coming. According to Liam Duggan, chief executive of Eircode, the Capita subsidiary the State is paying between €15 million and €16 million to introduce and apply the system"

I thought this was interesting though:

"Over the last 18 months, it has been designing the code and building a database of addresses to go with it, drawing on 100 million different entries in 20 different public-sector databases.

And the familiar for and against:

The National Ambulance Service says that it welcomes the introduction of a proposed postcode system “as it will enable address verification, thereby assisting services in reaching patients in a timely manner”.
However, not everyone agrees, John Kidd, national chairman of the Irish Fire and Emergency Services Association, a trade union with 1,200 members, says it will not be any use for callouts for accidents on roads or anywhere other than inside buildings. Duggan responds by pointing out the system is meant to identify addresses, not points on roads or motorways.

SpaceTime · 27-10-2014 2:06pm

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Ah but the fellas who puts the hole in the pole, forgot about the hole in the ground. Now they just turn the pole around.

No they've this other thing called "the foundation" amazing technology that prevents rotation of poles.

Most places don't just stick a sign post into a hole. Even a light breeze would turn it.

ukoda · 27-10-2014 2:28pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Article in today's Irish Times from Barry O'Halloran. As a 'new user' I cannot be trusted to post the link apparently so would appreciate if someone else would.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/retail-and-services/living-by-numbers-how-eircode-system-pinpoints-your-address-1.1976062

SpaceTime · 27-10-2014 5:58pm

Nice article but still an oddly self-restricted system that's not leveraging either GPS or human ability to decipher readable, well designed codes

Sam Russell · 27-10-2014 6:57pm

ukoda wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/retail-and-services/living-by-numbers-how-eircode-system-pinpoints-your-address-1.1976062

What a load of XXXXXXXX

It is a bad description of a bad system. The article reads like it came from a press release from Eircode, with a few added touches for colur. No hard details, like the cost of access to the database, which is essential for its use.

Nor does it suggest that fixing the basic problem of non-unique addresses that can be read by a human without the need for access to a database. It is like giving out PPS numbers to the guys that fix water leaks. Hang on .......

tvc15 · 27-10-2014 8:00pm

ukoda wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/retail-and-services/living-by-numbers-how-eircode-system-pinpoints-your-address-1.1976062

Ha! That article is heavily commented on by a Gary Delaney with over half of all comments on the article doing nothing but badmouthing Eircode and promoting loc8! So which one of you guys is Gary Delaney?

my3cents · 27-10-2014 8:24pm

tvc15 wrote: »

Ha! That article is heavily commented on by a Gary Delaney with over half of all comments on the article doing nothing but badmouthing Eircode and promoting loc8! So which one of you guys is Gary Delaney?

Probably the same guy that signs up to new accounts here so he can send anonymous PM's berating people who disagree with him.

Geogregor · 27-10-2014 10:05pm

I found this bit particularly interesting:

“That is a recipe for chaos,” he argues. Duggan points out that the Republic could be divided into billions of co-ordinates, while there are just 2.2 million addresses. “If you have a big enough house you could have five GPS co-ordinates,” he says. Ultimately, he maintains that there would still have to be a database identifying the addresses at each co-ordinate.

Is that true?

my3cents · 27-10-2014 10:13pm

Geogregor wrote: »

I found this bit particularly interesting:

Is that true?

If you can only have one postcode for a residence then you need a database to indicate which of the possible positional codes is used.

ukoda · 27-10-2014 10:22pm

And this bit really shows up the the wild claims of the eircode haters on this thread

Reports claim it will be looking for a minimum price of €5,000. In fact, minimum subscriptions are likely to be less than €200, while there will be a certain amount of free access on its website. The company has submitted its price plans to the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, and is waiting for that to be signed off.

27-10-2014 10:24pm

my3cents wrote: »

If you can only have one postcode for a residence then you need a database to indicate which of the possible positional codes is used.

I would imagine that the one at the driveway or front door would make the most sense.

I know that with Loc8 some people use a different code for the rear entrance when expecting deliveries.

ukoda · 27-10-2014 10:25pm

And I'm actually cringing at Gary Delanys comments on the article.

tvc15 · 27-10-2014 11:05pm

ukoda wrote: »

And I'm actually cringing at Gary Delanys comments on the article.

Lets see will he own up to posting in this thread, theres no way ssomeone like that hasn't found the enormous boards tgread on postcodes and not chipped in!

my3cents · 27-10-2014 11:19pm

ukoda wrote: »

And I'm actually cringing at Gary Delanys comments on the article.

Think this says it all

GaryDelaney
@ChrisSheldrick no recommendation for Lat/longs from me. I'm the inventor of Loc8 Code ...

SpaceTime · 28-10-2014 12:08am

The system's not ideal but, I still think it's better than the short poems we have for addresses at the moment.

I think a lot of us probably just want to avoid that ridiculous conversation:

"No, really, there's no zip/post code!"
"Really?"
"No we don't have them in Ireland"
"Are you sure?'
"Yes!"
"I need a postcode for the delivery"
"Oh, OK just use Cork 02100"

At this stage I just want SOMETHING rolled out.

A European or American style 5 digit code would be great but numbering houses and naming roads would be a monumental struggle against all sorts of local political and snobbery nonsense.

This is a total cludge of a system but, it has some hope od vaguely working for some things.

Loc8 or some modified version of it would have been handier.

Is there any way Loc8 and Eircode could be integrated?

Like using a version of Loc8 for all non-letterbox addresses and having Loc8's mapping capable of recognising an eircode? Maybe integrate the eircode first 3 digits into Loc8?

Carawaystick · 28-10-2014 3:21pm

ukoda wrote: »

And this bit really shows up the the wild claims of the eircode haters on this thread

IrishTimes wrote:

Reports claim it will be looking for a minimum price of €5,000. In fact, minimum subscriptions are likely to be less than €200, while there will be a certain amount of free access on its website. The company has submitted its price plans to the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, and is waiting for that to be signed off.

Likely?
A completely unattributed statement there, I wouldn't bet the farm on it just yet.
How can they be starting in the spring and have no idea of prices and winter starting on Saturday...

ukoda · 28-10-2014 3:29pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Likely?
A completely unattributed statement there, I wouldn't bet the farm on it just yet.
How can they be starting in the spring and have no idea of prices and winter starting on Saturday...

They have worked out the prices, they are currently under review by the DCENR, once approved they will publish them

so as they already have their pricing structure done, its unlikely they would put a figure out in the public thats totally off the mark

did you just read the word likely in the quote and ignore the rest of the words??

TheBustedFlush · 28-10-2014 4:30pm

ukoda wrote: »

They have worked out the prices, they are currently under review by the DCENR, once approved they will publish them

so as they already have their pricing structure done, its unlikely they would put a figure out in the public thats totally off the mark

did you just read the word likely in the quote and ignore the rest of the words??

Think you're right on that one. "Likely" is a classic journalist phrase like "it is understood", "sources say", "someone close to", etc, etc.

In other words, that's what it's going to be, (assuming approval), but they can't officially say so. €5k was never a minimum price for a copy of the database - €200 sounds much more likely as a starting cost for a single business user. They've also said there'll be a special rate for charities and for research/academic institutions.

ukoda · 28-10-2014 7:11pm

http://freepostcodelottery.ie

Well one company is quick off the mark!!

I suspect we'll see a lot of this stuff starts to come out soon as the postcode is launched

National Postcodes to be introduced

Comments