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Public sector pay increase

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    #62
    To Elland Back
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭To Elland Back


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Ok, how do you measure performance?

    Is the teacher who turns out A students better than the one who takes a failing student and turns them into a solid D or C student?

    Are the Guards in the centre of Dublin better than the Guards in Achill because they have more arrests?

    What about ED staff? What's their metrics? Or ATCOs? Or the Coastguard?

    The very fact that you have to ask those questions tells me you have no experience of what private sector workers face on a daily basis.

    Every function has a standard which is deemed acceptable, fail to meet it and face the consequences


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    #63
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Ok, how do you measure performance?

    Is the teacher who turns out A students better than the one who takes a failing student and turns them into a solid D or C student?

    Are the Guards in the centre of Dublin better than the Guards in Achill because they have more arrests?

    What about ED staff? What's their metrics? Or ATCOs? Or the Coastguard?
    Performance would be based on organization, preparation for the job and mandatory continuous training that would be graded.


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    #64
    To Elland Back
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭To Elland Back


    mad m wrote: »
    How do you know they can't be fired? I know at least 5 have been let go in Public Sector in the last few years. And by looks of it another has one foot out door.

    For under performance? I doubt it.


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    #65
    ShoulderChip
    Registered Users Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭ShoulderChip


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Performance would be based on organization, preparation for the job and mandatory continuous training that would be graded.

    the first two sound pretty qualative and the third one is pretty assanine


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    #66
    kupus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭kupus


    Root out the workers who take the piss are you kidding?

    They are so protected by those fcuking pyramid scheme shyster unions that they are nearly impossible to remove.

    If all the workshy ps were to be kicked out. My respect for them would increase by 100%. anyway I'm off now to go looking for a pot of gold under the rainbow.


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    #67
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    To Elland Back wrote: »
    The very fact that you have to ask those questions tells me you have no experience of what private sector workers face on a daily basis.

    Every function has a standard which is deemed acceptable, fail to meet it and face the consequences

    Actually I do.

    I work in the private sector for a UK firm. My (and my team's) metrics are pretty clear because the objective is to stay solvent and turn a profit.

    When the objective is Public Service and maintaining a contingent capacity for demand led services it becomes problematic to come up with metrics that don't skew the system or lead to perverse outcomes.


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    #68
    To Elland Back
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭To Elland Back


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Actually I do.

    I work in the private sector for a UK firm. My (and my team's) metrics are pretty clear because the objective is to stay solvent and turn a profit.

    When the objective is Public Service and maintaining a contingent capacity for demand led services it becomes problematic to come up with metrics that don't skew the system or lead to perverse outcomes.

    You lost me on metrics


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    #69
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Jawgap wrote: »
    So process oriented performance measures?

    There's an old expression - what gets measured is what gets done. If being punctual for parades or file organisation are the metrics people will focus on those, to the detriment of other things.

    In medicine for example, measuring performance using fatal outcomes encourages doctors to not take on difficult cases, just as litigation encourages the practice of defensive medicine.

    The copper who is assessed on his clear up rate will focus on the easy cases, not the difficult ones.
    With regards to firemen I'm talking abour drills, not parades.

    Performance measures for each profession would be set by senior workers in that profession. They have a better understanding of the job than we do.

    In the mean time the wage freeze should remain in place, the ban on recruitment should be immediately lifted, entry level positions should be given a large pay rise, paid for by cuts to senior staff who were protected under previous agreements and all future pensions should be cut.

    If the unions cause to much trouble they should be disbanded, their assets liquidated and given back to their members.


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    #70
    Cee-Jay-Cee
    Registered Users Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Public sector workers don't deserve a pay increase, yes their wages have been on a freeze since 2007 for very good reasons but public sector wages are still higher than their private sector counterparts.

    What utter horse sh*t! Can you name the private sector counterpart for the following jobs:

    Nurses
    Gardai
    Teachers
    Army
    Fire service
    Prison officers

    There is no private sector counterpart for them and they make up a huge percentage of the public sector.

    What profession are you in and what are the wage differentials between yours and public service equivalent? Why didn't you join the public service if your own job is so poorly paid? Why did you chose that job? Were you not qualified enough to join the public service???


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    #71
    HamsterFace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 832 ✭✭✭HamsterFace


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I've heard this arguement before but in the public sector you can have teachers with ordinary degrees earning 60k. In what private sector industry could a person with a BA earn 60k with experience alone?

    It's madness, imagine how more efficient the public sector would be if it were de-unionized.

    A teacher might make that kind of money towards the end of their careers. Nothing wrong with increments, they're actually a necessity for families who don't get any social welfare and who might want to educate their family.

    These threads seem to have a lot of young posters who have issues with others earning more than them regardless of what level in their career they are because said posters consider themselves more educated.

    They are, however, infinitely more naive. I'm private sector by the way and I'd be horrified if my pay was frozen, unconditionally, for 7 years.


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    #72
    ShoulderChip
    Registered Users Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭ShoulderChip


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    More asinine than me having to give grinds to clean up after a local teacher who hasn't finished the leaving cert curriculum?

    yes on the bigger scale of things, those stupid courses cost 1k per participant a day even for ridiculous topics like how to use Microsoft word, teachers like the ones you mentioned are not going to learn anything from them, and may well be clever enough to get good marks in them to be rewarded, are in no way a reflection on commitment or passion.


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    #73
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »
    What utter horse sh*t! Can you name the private sector counterpart for the following jobs:

    Nurses
    Gardai
    Teachers
    Army
    Fire service
    Prison officers

    There is no private sector counterpart for them and they make up a huge percentage of the public sector.
    There is huge demand to join all of those organizations but wages are kept high by means of a recruitment freeze.


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    #74
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    HamsterFace wrote: »
    A teacher might make that kind of money towards the end of their careers. Nothing wrong with increments, they're actually a necessity for families who don't get any social welfare and who might want to educate their family.

    These threads seem to have a lot of young posters who have issues with others earning more than them regardless of what level in their career they are because said posters consider themselves more educated.

    They are, however, infinitely more naive. I'm private sector by the way and I'd be horrified if my pay was frozen, unconditionally, for 7 years.
    What about people who don't get 60k who might want to educate their families?

    I have no problem with people earning more than me, obviously there are people in my job earning more than me. What I don't like are senior teachers earning 60k for doing the same or less than junior teachers for 30k.

    In my company, the people who earn more than me have a much harder job. With more stress and always on the line, they deserve more money.


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    #75
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    There is huge demand to join all of those organizations but wages are kept high by means of a recruitment freeze.

    Newly qualified Guards and nurses are on criminally low wages.

    And as for soldiers! The pay they're offered should shame the country, especially as when things go seriously t1ts up these are the people called out to deal with all kinds of emergencies the civil powers can't handle.


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    #76
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Newly qualified Guards and nurses are on criminally low wages.

    And as for soldiers! The pay they're offered should shame the country, especially as when things go seriously t1ts up these are the people called out to deal with all kinds of emergencies the civil powers can't handle.
    I agree, and why are entry level wages low? Because unions threw future entrants under the bus to protect existing members.


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    #77
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    Icaras wrote: »
    Still don't deserve it
    Of course the private sector are so efficient and competitive!
    Thank God for the Poles etc at least we can get house maintrnance done at the right price not like that charged by the robbing bastards from our own country. Public servants spend money too


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    #78
    Letree
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Letree


    A 2% payrise.. absolutely outrageous. So what if they were cut 14% on average and haven't had a payrise in 7 or 8 years. Who do they think they are looking for 2% rise??


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    #79
    Halloween Jack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Halloween Jack


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    What about people who don't get 60k who might want to educate their families?

    I have no problem with people earning more than me, obviously there are people in my job earning more than me. What I don't like are senior teachers earning 60k for doing the same or less than junior teachers for 30k.

    In my company, the people who earn more than me have a much harder job. With more stress and always on the line, they deserve more money.

    Those senior teachers were junior teachers too at one stage. I would have thought salary scales were pretty common across all manner of employment types. I certainly know many, many people in the private sector who get incremental salary increases based on length of service and performance reviews.

    What exactly are you suggesting, that all teachers be paid an identical wage, ie their starting wage and never receive an increase?


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    #80
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I've heard this arguement before but in the public sector you can have teachers with ordinary degrees earning 60k. In what private sector industry could a person with a BA earn 60k with experience alone?

    It's madness, imagine how more efficient the public sector would be if it were de-unionized.

    I know a fair few people on plenty more than 60k with just a leaving cert in the private sector

    Off the top of my head I can think of ten


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    #81
    Halloween Jack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Halloween Jack


    Stheno wrote: »
    I know a fair few people on plenty more than 60k with just a leaving cert in the private sector

    Off the top of my head I can think of ten

    Aye, the deeper you go in a given career the less relevant your qualifications become and the more important experience becomes.


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    #82
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Halloween Jack wrote: »
    Aye, the deeper you go in a given career the less relevant your qualifications become and the more important experience becomes.

    Yep on all the cases I am thinking of, industry relevant qualifications and experience trump a degree


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    #83
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,237 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    As a public sector employee, yay! :)

    On the other hand, I'm also self employed. Down with this sorta thing. :mad:

    I'm going to have to spend a little time wondering how I feel about this. Am I a waste of space, or a captain of industry...? :confused:

    Edit: Bollix. Just remembered I'm also entitled to the artist's exemption. I don't know up from down at the moment...


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    #84
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    endacl wrote: »
    As a public sector employee, yay! :)

    On the other hand, I'm also self employed. Down with this sorta thing. :mad:

    I'm going to have to spend a little time wondering how I feel about this. Am I a waste of space, or a captain of industry...? :confused:

    Edit: Bollix. Just remembered I'm also entitled to the artist's exemption. I don't know up from down at the moment...

    If you're self employed then are you not a contractor and therefore not an employee?

    Or are you self employed in another role?


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    #85
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,237 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Stheno wrote: »
    If you're self employed then are you not a contractor and therefore not an employee?

    Or are you self employed in another role?

    Another field entirely.


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    #86
    Fiskar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Fiskar


    Letree wrote: »
    A 2% payrise.. absolutely outrageous. So what if they were cut 14% on average and haven't had a payrise in 7 or 8 years. Who do they think they are looking for 2% rise??

    Turn that on its head and let say that you are talking about someone in the private sector. Would you then think that is fair?

    This public versus private attitude is what sucks.


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    #87
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    endacl wrote: »
    Another field entirely.

    Thanks apologies if I was overly nosey :)


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    #88
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,237 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Stheno wrote: »
    Thanks apologies if I was overly nosey :)

    Not at all. Ask away!


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    #89
    Letree
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Letree


    Fiskar wrote: »
    Turn that on its head and let say that you are talking about someone in the private sector. Would you then think that is fair?

    This public versus private attitude is what sucks.

    I fully support a payrise for Public Servants as i am one.


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    #90
    blackcard
    Registered Users Posts: 3,868 ✭✭✭blackcard


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    Of course the private sector are so efficient and competitive!
    Thank God for the Poles etc at least we can get house maintrnance done at the right price not like that charged by the robbing bastards from our own country. Public servants spend money too

    There are some private sector workers who built poor standard houses, the workers in shops who talk to each other when you want to be served, the bankers, auctioneers, estate agents, solicitors, union leaders - they are private sector - mechanics who provide poor service, etc. I know they can be let go but most are not. There are poor workers in both sectors


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    #91
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    blackcard wrote: »
    There are some private sector workers who built poor standard houses, the workers in shops who talk to each other when you want to be served, the bankers, auctioneers, estate agents, solicitors, union leaders - they are private sector - mechanics who provide poor service, etc. I know they can be let go but most are not. There are poor workers in both sectors

    However, none of them are paid from your tax euros.

    Let's put the money towards income tax cuts that everyone can benefit from.


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