Formula 1 2014: Round 14 - Singapore Grand Prix

Gillespy · 23-09-2014 11:24am

GerSmith wrote: »

You mean an 'unintentional' lockup to force HAM out of pole contention and parade around in 1st on a tight circuit? :P

I joke.... I Agree to an extent, but HAM keeps coming back it seems. There's little evidence in my mind to suggest that if reliability wasn't an issue that Rosberg would outdo Hamilton on a consistent basis. I know skyf1 and the british media kiss his A$$ but Hamilton just seems to have the edge on pace over the course of a season.

There isn't. Anyone that does see it usually begin by saying Hamilton is the better driver but because they don't like him for some reason Rosberg has the edge.

Mercedes would love the believe that Rosberg is on par with him so they can have them on the same money. Interesting that Nikki Lauda said Hamilton was worth the money. I wonder what's going on with his contract. One thing in his favour now is the booing Rosberg is getting. Mercedes won't like that. If he cops it in Texas especially. If they want to believe it's only Hamilton fans well that another sign he is worth a bigger contract. The main one though is that next year they won't have the advantage they have now so will need his pace and race craft even more. It's crazy to think Rosberg has only one more win than Ricciardo, in a car that had no winter testing.

ScumLord · 23-09-2014 4:28pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I cant watch the F1 coverage its borderline insulting. The BBC isn't far behind in all fairness.

I watched the Australian coverage once, now that's dire. They seemed to take a commercial break every time there was some action in the race.

Myrddin · 23-09-2014 6:51pm

Gillespy wrote: »

It's crazy to think Rosberg has only one more win than Ricciardo, in a car that had no winter testing.

I actually had to double take when they mentioned in coverage that Rosberg had only won 4 races this season. When you put it into perspective, it's pretty poor given the machinery at hand, plus his really good run of reliability up until the recent race.

GerSmith · 24-09-2014 8:11am

Myrddin wrote: »

I actually had to double take when they mentioned in coverage that Rosberg had only won 4 races this season. When you put it into perspective, it's pretty poor given the machinery at hand, plus his really good run of reliability up until the recent race.

To put it in perspective Ricciardo's wins were due to:

Canada, Nico - energy problems cause less power to rosberg's car (HAM retired)
Hungary [ARGUABLY], lewis held up rosberg who was on a different tyre strategy
Belgium - well, will we even go there? lol

Don't get me wrong, Ricciardo won fair and square. But at the same time, was it due to a proper dog fight with the mercs? not so much IMO. As far as the Bulls V Mercs, Hungary is probably as outright as it gets.

But my god, mercs aside ricciardo drove some awesome races with some INSANE overtakes to get there. All of them seemed to be in the last 3rd of the race too! He's a class driver and looks to be a really genuine dude..

Tea 1000 · 24-09-2014 12:45pm

GerSmith wrote: »

But my god, mercs aside ricciardo drove some awesome races with some INSANE overtakes to get there. All of them seemed to be in the last 3rd of the race too! He's a class driver and looks to be a really genuine dude..

Yep, of the other top drivers on the grid folk have problems with all of them. Kimi - uninterested, Alonso - Cranky, Hamilton - Toolbag, Vettel - finger wagging German, but Ricciardo - happy!
Could he finally be the all-people's champion? :P

christy c · 24-09-2014 3:16pm

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Could he finally be the all-people's champion? :P

Wait till he starts winning championships, then he'll be the Australian git with the goofy smile

GerSmith · 24-09-2014 3:17pm

christy c wrote: »

Wait till he starts winning championships, then he'll be the Australian git with the goofy smile

Beats the German Brat with the pointy finger...

christy c · 24-09-2014 3:33pm

GerSmith wrote: »

Beats the German Brat with the pointy finger...

You're missing my point, no matter how well a driver is liked, once they start winning people's opinion will change

GerSmith · 24-09-2014 3:34pm

Not mine personally. Huge Schumacher fan. Always was and will be. I would never have an issue with Ricciardo winning.
Don't want to turn this thread into a 'Sebastian Vettel Debate' but I never was nor will be a fan of him, pre and post world championship winning era.

Tea 1000 · 24-09-2014 3:42pm

GerSmith wrote: »

Not mine personally. Huge Schumacher fan. Always was and will be. I would never have an issue with Ricciardo winning.
Don't want to turn this thread into a 'Sebastian Vettel Debate' but I never was nor will be a fan of him, pre and post world championship winning era.

I wasn't a Schumacher fan for the first few years, but then became one after transitioning from admirer of his talent to just outright joining the fan camp!
To think I shouted for Hill instead! I was young then though... that's my excuse!

christy c · 24-09-2014 3:43pm

GerSmith wrote: »

Not mine personally. Huge Schumacher fan. Always was and will be. I would never have an issue with Ricciardo winning.
Don't want to turn this thread into a 'Sebastian Vettel Debate' but I never was nor will be a fan of him, pre and post world championship winning era.

I'm talking in general, you're talking about your personal opinion on particular drivers. Using Ric as an example, if he were to dominate like Vettel did for the next four years, there would be a noticeable shift in public opinion

GerSmith · 24-09-2014 3:54pm

I understand your point of view. But I would add that I do not think the shift would be a similar shift to way Vettel's dominance was received. I believe Ricciardo's potential dominance would be rather well received actually.

I don't think it will ever come to that. World Championship potential? Yes. Absolutely. But I don't think red bull will experience the type of 'vettel success' during his tenure there.

andyman · 24-09-2014 4:16pm

GerSmith wrote: »

To put it in perspective Ricciardo's wins were due to:

Canada, Nico - energy problems cause less power to rosberg's car (HAM retired)
Hungary [ARGUABLY], lewis held up rosberg who was on a different tyre strategy
Belgium - well, will we even go there? lol

Don't get me wrong, Ricciardo won fair and square. But at the same time, was it due to a proper dog fight with the mercs? not so much IMO. As far as the Bulls V Mercs, Hungary is probably as outright as it gets.

But my god, mercs aside ricciardo drove some awesome races with some INSANE overtakes to get there. All of them seemed to be in the last 3rd of the race too! He's a class driver and looks to be a really genuine dude..

No argument. Rosberg couldn't get close to Hamilton.

Oblomov · 27-09-2014 12:48pm

MERCEDES AMG F1 @MercedesAMGF1 · 18h
Forensic analysis has revealed that the steering column electronic circuits were contaminated with a foreign substance

The result was an intermittent short circuit in the electronic circuits meaning @nico_rosberg could not command clutch or engine settings

Fresh parts will be used at the forthcoming races. Our hard work on reliability processes will continue at the same intensive level

To clarify, the contaminant was a substance used in normal pre-event servicing of the component. #NotAConspiracy

And how did the "contamination" get from the "factory" and into the steering wheel assembly, which was changed... in the pit lane.. appeared to have only been present in the two for Rosberg's car?

Or, did IT crawl under the door, locked... paec ferme... and make ITs way into the steering wheel.... Feeling lonely? Cold? feeling lost and alone in a strange land.

No prizes for the correct guess. Got to ask how IT is carried, tube, aerosol, can, syringe???

Myrddin · 27-09-2014 2:14pm

Oblomov wrote: »

MERCEDES AMG F1 @MercedesAMGF1 · 18h
Forensic analysis has revealed that the steering column electronic circuits were contaminated with a foreign substance

The result was an intermittent short circuit in the electronic circuits meaning @nico_rosberg could not command clutch or engine settings

Fresh parts will be used at the forthcoming races. Our hard work on reliability processes will continue at the same intensive level

To clarify, the contaminant was a substance used in normal pre-event servicing of the component. #NotAConspiracy

And how did the "contamination" get from the "factory" and into the steering wheel assembly, which was changed... in the pit lane.. appeared to have only been present in the two for Rosberg's car?

Or, did IT crawl under the door, locked... paec ferme... and make ITs way into the steering wheel.... Feeling lonely? Cold? feeling lost and alone in a strange land.

No prizes for the correct guess. Got to ask how IT is carried, tube, aerosol, can, syringe???

Same reason only Lewis's brake disc exploded, same reason only Lewis's car erupted into flames, same reason only Lewis's car failed in AUS. This isn't a job for Mulder & Scully, but instead, is the reality that these are prototype cars being pushed all the time.

ScumLord · 27-09-2014 3:33pm

If the steering wheel goes into a socket and a very tiny piece of rubber got into that socket, then the wheels jammed down on top of it so it's stuck into the contacts it could cause an intermittent fault. Changing the wheel wouldn't correct the problem as it's jammed into the contacts of the cars steering column. It's something that would be highly unlikely and not obvious at first and may never happen again.

I'm not saying that's what happened but on a complicated piece of bespoke machinery like an F1 car there are thousands of possible faults waiting to surprise engineers. No matter how much time and money they spend testing things there's always going to be some unexpected problem pop up in the real world.

Oblomov · 27-09-2014 3:36pm

Same reason only Lewis's brake disc exploded,

ROFL...

Each car was running different make discs.

Myrddin · 27-09-2014 3:53pm

Oblomov wrote: »

ROFL...

Each car was running different make discs.

Yeah, you'd imagine if there was a conspiracy they'd at least put the faulty parts in one car and not both, wouldn't you? Sorry but any notion that there's a conspiracy here is utter nonsense.

Oblomov · 27-09-2014 3:57pm

Forensic analysis has revealed that the steering column electronic circuits were contaminated with a foreign substance

All that reads very nicely but the official Mercedes AMG Peteronas tweet clearly does not reinforce your argument.

The steering wheel assembly has a flexi lead that connects to a multi pin loom plug.

The design of the socket and plug housings dictate that both parts are correctly aligned before contact and full engagement. The latest type has a slide that engages and pulls the two parts together as the slide is pressed in.

The wording "foreign substance" used in pre event servicing ... would be ok, but in two units.

I don't think so

Myrddin · 27-09-2014 4:10pm

Oblomov wrote: »

I don't think so

Tell us what you do think

27-09-2014 4:28pm

Not going for the conspiracy angle but Rosberg's managed to drive around an issue that Hamilton couldn't. It's not all down to pure luck.

wobbles · 27-09-2014 4:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Not going for the conspiracy angle but Rosberg's managed to drive around an issue that Hamilton couldn't. It's not all down to pure luck.

True but Rosbergs issue was intermittent which ment it did work (if only partially) some of the time. Hamiltons issues have been race enders.

27-09-2014 6:01pm

wobbles wrote: »

True but Rosbergs issue was intermittent which ment it did work (if only partially) some of the time. Hamiltons issues have been race enders.

Which one? Did Rosberg not have a similar issue in Canada to Hamilton but his driving style (and some might say caution) let him coax the car home to a podium?

Gillespy · 27-09-2014 6:12pm

Canada? Not really. Both cars lost MGU-K pretty much simultaneously. Hamilton retired because he lost his brakes due to a combination of running in Rosberg's wake and different brake bias settings. Rosberg was told to put his brake bias forward and he limped home.

These cars and this formula was supposed to expose Hamilton and it hasn't. It was fairytale stuff. Canada is too.

Rosberg's a gun qualifier, always has been. It's the only area he has anything like parity with Hamilton. Qualifying doesn't need tyre and fuel management and certainly doesn't involve overtaking and that is where Hamilton has excelled.

27-09-2014 6:44pm

Gillespy wrote: »

Canada? Not really. Both cars lost MGU-K pretty much simultaneously. Hamilton retired because he lost his brakes due to a combination of running in Rosberg's wake and different brake bias settings. Rosberg was told to put his brake bias forward and he limped home.

These cars and this formula was supposed to expose Hamilton and it hasn't. It was fairytale stuff. Canada is too.

Rosberg's a gun qualifier, always has been. It's the only area he has anything like parity with Hamilton. Qualifying doesn't need tyre and fuel management and certainly doesn't involve overtaking and that is where Hamilton has excelled.

Yet Rosberg is a couple points behind in the championship, near parity no? :P

Myrddin · 27-09-2014 7:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Not going for the conspiracy angle but Rosberg's managed to drive around an issue that Hamilton couldn't. It's not all down to pure luck.

I suppose benefiting from a radio instruction to move his bias after Lewis' failed helped him there. But yeah, sometimes luck doesn't play any part. Lewis' fluffed it twice in quali I think, the Red Bull Ring & somewhere else. But on the whole, Hamilton has won nearly double the races Rosberg has and is barely in the lead, reliability against Hamilton has hugely benefited Rosberg, not to mention the Spa incident where Lewis lost a ton of points & Nico got away almost unscathed.

27-09-2014 8:28pm

Myrddin wrote: »

I suppose benefiting from a radio instruction to move his bias after Lewis' failed helped him there. But yeah, sometimes luck doesn't play any part. Lewis' fluffed it twice in quali I think, the Red Bull Ring & somewhere else. But on the whole, Hamilton has won nearly double the races Rosberg has and is barely in the lead, reliability against Hamilton has hugely benefited Rosberg, not to mention the Spa incident where Lewis lost a ton of points & Nico got away almost unscathed.

Was there not a message to Hamilton as well? Hamilton's style apparently contributed to the issue I thought. The lost points in Belgium weren't down to reliability. :P

Myrddin · 27-09-2014 9:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Was there not a message to Hamilton as well? Hamilton's style apparently contributed to the issue I thought. The lost points in Belgium weren't down to reliability. :P

From memory, the radio instruction came after Lewis's disc exploded. The points lost at Spa were as a result of reliability...reliable driving from a car behind :P

Oblomov · 27-09-2014 10:47pm

Mercedes AMG have tweeted back, just stating steering column asked the question.. Column wiring loom? Contacts on steering column? Electric pwr steering? Too ambiguous.

What do I think?

The attention to detail, the constant quality control at different stages with all components. For wiring looms, the initial planning colour coding and tpye and ease of loom connectors. Racing cars for the amount of vibration have electronics just below military standard. Robust, shock resistant and durable. Continuity and resistance checks on all wiring looms before supplying to the assembly guys. Then, checks before any complements fitted. The lasy thing anyone wants is a wiring loom fault to take out an ECU or contribute to an ongoing fault. The mapping of units, Engine, transmission, steering, brakes, more so now that an all electronic drive by wire system is in place.

The data checker systems and cards, all allow a constant check on performance electronics.

But, suddenly, between Quali and race a "foreign substance used in pre event servicing" causes a major malfunction.

it defies logic. From a performing car, suddenly to be afflicted with ... Blah blah... after three practice sessions a large number of laps, to be affected by " Pre Event" ..... Really?

As the car returns from a practice session, the computers are plugged in and performance data downloaded. Engine mapping details, all the systems are checked, then the adjustments, from all the checks a " re event service" item remains undetected.

Really?

The lovely thing about the internet, it allows all types of research.. all.. and anyone into accounting ot company structure, finance and business acumen can easily run checks on all sorts.

now, if I say, a company has £80 cash at hand, £102k in declared assess and with a liability of £284k... now, that would not be a safe and secure company... when the directors are seen to have started and then dissolved a large number of companies, all from the same address and with the same directors across a nine year period... one company moving, dispersing a large amount of cash before dissolving, Hmmm.

With over 60% of invoices running into over 90 day payments... Hmmm, the solvency and management must be questioned.... but ... What has this to do with the price of Mars bars? just a reflection on the people involved in Motor Racing.

then, there's the application to the local council for a search for footpaths on a certain property.

Strange the things the internet reveals.

not all of them good.

Oblomov · 27-09-2014 10:55pm

Subsequent tweet, refered me to facebook page and folloeing statement.

MERCEDES AMG PETRONAS
Yesterday
UPDATE: The #SingaporeGP gremlin that forced Nico Rosberg to retire in the race (explained)…

• Forensic analysis has revealed that the steering column electronic circuits were contaminated with a foreign substance.
• This occurred during our normal pre-event servicing procedures at the factory and the substance found is used as part of our standard servicing procedure.
• The relevant design has been in use since 2008 (6 seasons) without experiencing any fault.
• The contamination was not visible and did not manifest itself until Sunday as Nico went to the grid, although the steering column was used throughout the weekend and the car fired up as normal on Sunday morning.
• The result was an intermittent short circuit in these circuits.
• As a consequence Nico could not command the clutch nor change engine settings.
• The car was ultimately retired because it was unsafe to execute a pit stop without command of the clutch.
• Fresh parts will be used at the forthcoming races.
• The team has been working intensively on reliability and quality processes during 2013 and 2014 in order to improve our performance in this area and these efforts will continue at the same intensive level over the coming months

Myrddin · 28-09-2014 11:48am

Oblomov wrote: »

Really?

The lovely thing about the internet, it allows all types of research.. all.. and anyone into accounting ot company structure, finance and business acumen can easily run checks on all sorts.

now, if I say, a company has £80 cash at hand, £102k in declared assess and with a liability of £284k... now, that would not be a safe and secure company... when the directors are seen to have started and then dissolved a large number of companies, all from the same address and with the same directors across a nine year period... one company moving, dispersing a large amount of cash before dissolving, Hmmm.

With over 60% of invoices running into over 90 day payments... Hmmm, the solvency and management must be questioned.... but ... What has this to do with the price of Mars bars? just a reflection on the people involved in Motor Racing.

then, there's the application to the local council for a search for footpaths on a certain property.

Strange the things the internet reveals.

not all of them good.

You're still not saying what you think happened. You're hinting that you don't believe the official explanation, but you're not saying what you think happened (that I can make out anyway). At best, by your logic, no F1 car should ever have a reliability problem

ScumLord · 28-09-2014 2:50pm

Oblomov wrote: »

..... Really?

Yes, failures happen. Even on the most robust systems. Even military equipment fails. Consumer technology actually has a bit of an advantage over bespoke client technology like F1 or military. In the consumer market they see failure every day, they build with failure in mind and are redesigning products every year so can deal with failure quickly.

In F1 and the military they try to avoid failure and because they're dealing with smaller runs failures are rare but they are inevitable and costly to deal with when they do happen. In the consumer market they might have a few hundred failed parts to study but in F1 they may only have one failure and have to figure it out based on little evidence.

Formula 1 2014: Round 14 - Singapore Grand Prix

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