Eircom fibre for direct to exchange news?

dbit · 18-12-2014 3:29pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Which UK operator was that and why would they fight this development? I don't really understand why they would do that.

Exchange-launched will be an inferior product though unless you're very close to the building and there are definitely some additional bandwidth limitations on the general copper network that don't exist between the local cabinet and the end user as other services are running live on the lines.

I saw the ComReg calls for submissions on it, but they haven't published any follow up or decisions that I'm aware of.

Exactly my feeling on it also . Where i observed the frequency range on which the evdsl solution will transmit signal is in the 2.xx mhz range where as the cabinets pump out 17.xxmhz range , lower frequency in my eyes = lower range , and yes all of the phone watch stuff also receives wobble(EMF) on adjacent lines so lower frequencies required not to cause wobble.

SpaceTime · 18-12-2014 3:33pm

There are all sorts of ancient multiplexers (pair gain / carrier lines - could be digital multiplexing of various eras or even just analogue multiplexing by shifting a voice line up to a higher frequency out of band) and various eras of DSL technologies carrying IP traffic, leased lines, ISDN services etc etc... you'd be surprised at how many non-phone services may be sitting on the copper network.

dbit · 18-12-2014 3:35pm

ClonNGB wrote: »

I phoned them yesterday and they told me there are no dates yet when evdsl will be available. They did say the Eircom FTTH does not need a cab in between though. So perhaps might get some decent speeds by 2020.

Me cup o Tay just went up me nose , thanks for that . only 5 more years to go egh.

MBSnr · 18-12-2014 4:22pm

SpaceTime wrote:

.
.
Exchange-launched will be an inferior product though unless you're very close to the building and there are definitely some additional bandwidth limitations on the general copper network that don't exist between the local cabinet and the end user as other services are running live on the lines.
.

dbit wrote: »

Exactly my feeling on it also . Where i observed the frequency range on which the evdsl solution will transmit signal is in the 2.xx mhz range where as the cabinets pump out 17.xxmhz range , lower frequency in my eyes = lower range , and yes all of the phone watch stuff also receives wobble(EMF) on adjacent lines so lower frequencies required not to cause wobble.

Great... my direct fed hopes at getting even a 7/1 profile @ 2.5Km (based on my good attenuation figure) are starting to fade more and more...... phish....

Hackery · 18-12-2014 11:58pm

ClonNGB wrote: »

I phoned them yesterday and they told me there are no dates yet when evdsl will be available. They did say the Eircom FTTH does not need a cab in between though. So perhaps might get some decent speeds by 2020.

Two different products are being described here. FTTH is not eVDSL.

Packet · 20-12-2014 6:42pm

finbarrc wrote: »

Something is up with direct fed exchange lines as my line is direct fed and I got the following letter from eircom this morning. I still cannot get eFibre even though the letter implies that I can.

My parents got the same letter. I thought it must be wrong but told them to call the number and see what happens. Their house in Bray is (or was until today) on a direct fed line to the exchange. They were stuck on ADSL2 synching at about 14Mbps.

Apparently for a small number of locations direct fed lines have been patched into closer cabinets. Someone came today installed the new modem and did the final bit of patching into the cabinet. The VDSL2 line is now getting 86Mbps down and 20Mbps up from the eircom speedtest server.

Nolars · 20-12-2014 6:50pm

Well its good they are now starting to move people to closer cabs.

SpaceTime · 20-12-2014 7:38pm

There are still some areas around Cork, Dublin, Limerick etc that are huge and direct fed. I'd say they'll have to install PCP cabinets and e-fibre cabinets for those areas. Direct feeding stuff from the exchange is only really viable for people in its immediate vicinity.

I know at Wellington Road exchange here in Cork City, there are cabinets within a couple of meters of the building. So, they obviously don't really want to direct feed if avoidable.

ED E · 20-12-2014 8:04pm

A great example of that is all of Temple Bar to Grafton street in Dublin. Nearly all of that area is DF from underground cavities.

bk · 21-12-2014 1:37pm

I'd guess that these high density city center locations maybe the first areas to get FTTH, in addition to EVDSL

dbit · 05-01-2015 3:56pm

Im like a smurf going blue in the face waiting on Evdsl i know for sure ill be out of rental contract before that happens (May this year) poof gone , out the gap and hopefully will find an ESB area around then.

The site/exchange in wellington road is obvious they have such huge volumes going in there that the cross talk factor had to be mitigated and cutting lines and using full vdsl cabs was the only option in those places ( IF service delivery is to be taken seriously) .

Looking to the maps I still do not see any Evdsl rollouts taking place not even prep builds.

Has the evdsl solution been signed off upon as yet ?

mass_debater · 05-01-2015 4:09pm

It's running for testing in a few exchanges, Westport is one

lucernarian · 06-01-2015 5:12am

Packet wrote: »

My parents got the same letter. I thought it must be wrong but told them to call the number and see what happens. Their house in Bray is (or was until today) on a direct fed line to the exchange. They were stuck on ADSL2 synching at about 14Mbps.

Apparently for a small number of locations direct fed lines have been patched into closer cabinets. Someone came today installed the new modem and did the final bit of patching into the cabinet. The VDSL2 line is now getting 86Mbps down and 20Mbps up from the eircom speedtest server.

It sounds like they were indeed moved to a new cabinet. Are you 100% sure that they were moved though? I thought there might be regulatory issues in that existing exchange-based LLU equipment would have a smaller customer base who would use it. Why use LLU when efibre and efibre reselling can deliver much faster speeds?

Most of the rollout has been aimed at a really widespread enabling of cabinets before dealing with the direct-fed issue, so far.

finbarrc · 06-01-2015 12:47pm

dbit wrote: »

Im like a smurf going blue in the face waiting on Evdsl i know for sure ill be out of rental contract before that happens (May this year) poof gone , out the gap and hopefully will find an ESB area around then.

The site/exchange in wellington road is obvious they have such huge volumes going in there that the cross talk factor had to be mitigated and cutting lines and using full vdsl cabs was the only option in those places ( IF service delivery is to be taken seriously) .

Looking to the maps I still do not see any Evdsl rollouts taking place not even prep builds.

Has the evdsl solution been signed off upon as yet ?

The Douglas, Cork exchange DGS1_E01 has turned blue late last year on the Eircom wholesale site. It is one of a small number of exchanges in Cork where direct fed lines will have Evdsl at some stage in 2015, so far...

dbit · 06-01-2015 12:59pm

Evdsl is dead to me .

bk · 06-01-2015 2:57pm

From Eircoms future plans document from last November:

NGA Network Rollout Plan
The NGA network continues to roll out across the country, with a commitment to connect over 1.6 million homes and businesses to superfast fibre broadband. The rollout will also cater for Direct Fed lines through Exchange Launched VDSL.

dbit · 07-01-2015 11:27am

Spotted another cork based Direct fed in completion stage ?? CLS1_E01 Castle Lyons Cork.

Gonzo · 07-01-2015 2:45pm

my local exchange in Dunshaughlin is also being upgraded to EVDSL, fek all use to me tho with a 2.9km line length!.

Caspero · 14-01-2015 2:27pm

Gonzo wrote: »

my local exchange in Dunshaughlin is also being upgraded to EVDSL, fek all use to me tho with a 2.9km line length!.

Have you looked into what speeds to expect at that distance? I ask because I'm about that far away from my exchange. Even 6-10mbps down and 3mbps up would meet my needs.

bk · 14-01-2015 2:49pm

Caspero wrote: »

Have you looked into what speeds to expect at that distance? I ask because I'm about that far away from my exchange. Even 6-10mbps down and 3mbps up would meet my needs.

You won't be able to get eVDSL at 2.9km. Even 2km is stretching it, you need to be about 1.5km or less for any decent performance.

ED E · 14-01-2015 2:51pm

Caspero wrote: »

Have you looked into what speeds to expect at that distance? I ask because I'm about that far away from my exchange. Even 6-10mbps down and 3mbps up would meet my needs.

0. VDSL2 wont sync at 2.9km.

You should get 5-8Mb now, without a new cab half way in between you wont see any improvement.

Caspero · 14-01-2015 3:37pm

ED E wrote: »

0. VDSL2 wont sync at 2.9km.

You should get 5-8Mb now, without a new cab half way in between you wont see any improvement.

Interesting, thanks.

lucernarian · 16-01-2015 6:45pm

ED E wrote: »

0. VDSL2 wont sync at 2.9km.

You should get 5-8Mb now, without a new cab half way in between you wont see any improvement.

VDSL2 is supposed to have the same long-distance performance as ADSL2+ so in theory there would be no change in speeds. Now modem and DSLAM configuration and firmware might impact on this but that's the theory at least! For example the chipset maker Infineon has this document concerning the VDSL2 standard http://www.netsys.com.tw/support/download/VDSL2_WP.pdf

The point is, eircom simply won't sell it to anyone who won't pass prequal but if they allowed the right profiles instead of specifying a minimum of 7 Mbps, it should work? Tbh probably only a handful of engineers from Huawei would be able to tell me exactly what their eircom-spec can do. In theory, it should work on any ADSL compatible line if eircom were to allow it.

Packet · 16-01-2015 7:08pm

lucernarian wrote: »

It sounds like they were indeed moved to a new cabinet. Are you 100% sure that they were moved though? I thought there might be regulatory issues in that existing exchange-based LLU equipment would have a smaller customer base who would use it. Why use LLU when efibre and efibre reselling can deliver much faster speeds?

100% sure they were moved to a non-exchange based VDSL2 cabinet. It is an existing cabinet that has been in for some time, about 1 mile away from the exchange. AFAIK exchange VDSL2 has not been given final approval by comreg yet. Don't understand the point about LLU this is on eircom's equipment and they're eircom customers.

ED E · 16-01-2015 8:13pm

lucernarian wrote: »

VDSL2 is supposed to have the same long-distance performance as ADSL2+ so in theory there would be no change in speeds. Now modem and DSLAM configuration and firmware might impact on this but that's the theory at least! For example the chipset maker Infineon has this document concerning the VDSL2 standard http://www.netsys.com.tw/support/download/VDSL2_WP.pdf

The point is, eircom simply won't sell it to anyone who won't pass prequal but if they allowed the right profiles instead of specifying a minimum of 7 Mbps, it should work? Tbh probably only a handful of engineers from Huawei would be able to tell me exactly what their eircom-spec can do. In theory, it should work on any ADSL compatible line if eircom were to allow it.

On my mobile here so I can't read the specsheet now but the main difference here is the vdsl bands in use, the copper loop frequency management plan from comreg limits different techs to different frequencies to combat crosstalk. I assume this is what prevents extended range use. Will have to dig further to verify that.

Gonzo · 16-01-2015 8:23pm

they should be investing more in cabs at central locations and a bit further out from town. In dunshaughlin this is gonna benefit barely anyone other than a few shops and pubs along the main street.

Gonzo · 16-01-2015 8:28pm

Caspero wrote: »

Have you looked into what speeds to expect at that distance? I ask because I'm about that far away from my exchange. Even 6-10mbps down and 3mbps up would meet my needs.

im in the bad situation of being so close yet to far from my nearest cab. Im actually in range of my nearest cab (1.7km away by line length). but that cab only serves about 60 houses in an estate. All the houses along the road from there to my house are on direct fed lines, most of which are too far by line length from the central exchange to benefit from eVDSL. most people more than 900 meters from the centre of dunshaughlin cannot get fibre even tho the tech is supposed to stretch up to 2km. eVDSL will only serve a few shops and pubs once it's launched here.

sparky63 · 19-01-2015 12:53am

Packet wrote: »

100% sure they were moved to a non-exchange based VDSL2 cabinet. It is an existing cabinet that has been in for some time, about 1 mile away from the exchange. AFAIK exchange VDSL2 has not been given final approval by comreg yet. Don't understand the point about LLU this is on eircom's equipment and they're eircom customers.

LLu is not Eircoms equipment. LLu's use their own equipment eg Smart, there own equipment at Eircom exchanges but using Eircoms cables.

Unlike WLR - Wholesale Line Rental. Your voice calls and line rental are with another company - but you are still connected to Eircom's equipment.

lucernarian · 19-01-2015 3:00am

ED E wrote: »

On my mobile here so I can't read the specsheet now but the main difference here is the vdsl bands in use, the copper loop frequency management plan from comreg limits different techs to different frequencies to combat crosstalk. I assume this is what prevents extended range use. Will have to dig further to verify that.

Interesting. I assume that if exchange VDSL2 has similar characteristics as ADSL2, there shouldn't be anything stopping VDSL2 DSLAMs from coexisting with ADSL ones on the <1.1 MHz bandwidth assuming both respect the power limits in the ADSL frequency plan. If only 2.2 MHz to 17 or 30 MHz can be used for VDSL, it's a big loss in capacity for anyone over 400 metres from the cabinet. Vectoring wouldn't be possible from the exchange of course but once it has the same power over given DMT channels up to 2.2 MHz and then whatever is already used for eFibre above that, I assume it would be game on?

I can't figure out the technical reasons behind this issue. Is it a case that VDSL2 frequency harmonics would be a problem?

yuloni · 19-01-2015 4:02am

This post has been deleted.

ED E · 19-01-2015 6:42pm

The frequency limits are there, or will be there if the operators agree, to prevent eVDSL from degrading other services on parallel copper carriers. That's great in theory, realistically you won't put very high signalling rate lines in use without some crosstalk. Only time will tell how much.

Ports would have to be done due to an order as the line operator will have to arrange the user end changes first.

dbit · 19-01-2015 7:13pm

Well the pooch is screwed for me I can see suggested dates for evdsl in macroom they say for west macroom itll be up 2015/16 lolz sure thats when the ftth solution is rolled out by them also( trying not to laugh) . That is west macroom and they have left the exchange date blank for the center of macroom. I cannot wait to get out of this place.

guil · 19-01-2015 8:00pm

dbit wrote: »

Well the pooch is screwed for me I can see suggested dates for evdsl in macroom they say for west macroom itll be up 2015/16 lolz sure thats when the ftth solution is rolled out by them also( trying not to laugh) . That is west macroom and they have left the exchange date blank for the center of macroom. I cannot wait to get out of this place.

Is there somewhere to see suggested dates or is that just from the map?

dbit · 19-01-2015 8:16pm

guil wrote: »

Is there somewhere to see suggested dates or is that just from the map?

Google eircom wholesale . then click our network, click NGA FIBRE BROADBAND NETWORK in there you can show via legend on the right all exchanges and schedules for delivery. Zoom in and out and use the planned and commenced check boxes.

guil · 19-01-2015 10:28pm

dbit wrote: »

Google eircom wholesale . then click our network, click NGA FIBRE BROADBAND NETWORK in there you can show via legend on the right all exchanges and schedules for delivery. Zoom in and out and use the planned and commenced check boxes.

Pretty much the same as looking at fibrerollout.ie
Unfortunately my exchange doesn't even give a date, just says fibre services planned.

yuloni · 20-01-2015 8:58am

This post has been deleted.

Hackery · 20-01-2015 9:57am

yuloni wrote: »

eVDSL in my area will be largely wasted due to the network topology locally and it may actually degrade a whole lot of the existing DSL connections within the sprawling exchange boundary

EVDSL will have no impact on ADSL connections. Any impact, and it is very insignificant will be to cabinet based VDSL lines whose DPs are within a certain narrow range of the cabinet.

dbit · 20-01-2015 10:34am

guil wrote: »

Pretty much the same as looking at fibrerollout.ie
Unfortunately my exchange doesn't even give a date, just says fibre services planned.

And this is where your fun times will be spent mostly looking at a non updating exchanges. The operating frequencies of these units are not even worth the effort in my eyes.

dbit · 20-01-2015 10:41am

Its quite simple Eircom need to drop vdsl cabs outside the exchanges to negate the corsstalk on incoming ducts with high concentration of pairs. They are going to **** this up i smell it a mile off. Evdsl is only going to benifit those on top of the exchange . Evdsl should be scrapped in my opinion with more focus on ftth from these left over customers after the vdsl cab solutions are completed . They are going to do FTTH anyway so why not hold off working two solutions to the exchange and opt for one , less spend and higher quality service delivery .

Hackery · 20-01-2015 2:52pm

dbit wrote: »

Its quite simple Eircom need to drop vdsl cabs outside the exchanges to negate the corsstalk on incoming ducts with high concentration of pairs. They are going to **** this up i smell it a mile off. Evdsl is only going to benifit those on top of the exchange . Evdsl should be scrapped in my opinion with more focus on ftth from these left over customers after the vdsl cab solutions are completed . They are going to do FTTH anyway so why not hold off working two solutions to the exchange and opt for one , less spend and higher quality service delivery .

eVDSL can be done today. FTTH will follow but people want speed increases now and eVDSL will provide that quickly and cheaply.

dbit · 20-01-2015 3:33pm

Hackery wrote: »

eVDSL can be done today. FTTH will follow but people want speed increases now and eVDSL will provide that quickly and cheaply.

Evdsl will not provide speeds the like of cab based users , and in places where it goes over 1 km or 1.4 km itll be worse than cab based as the operating freqs are lower .

If it is quick and cheap then why would evdsl not be done first . Regulators are still keeping a keen eye on this as it develops . I smell trouble with it to be honest.

ED E · 20-01-2015 4:05pm

dbit wrote: »

Evdsl will not provide speeds the like of cab based users , and in places where it goes over 1 km or 1.4 km itll be worse than cab based as the operating freqs are lower .

If it is quick and cheap then why would evdsl not be done first . Regulators are still keeping a keen eye on this as it develops . I smell trouble with it to be honest.

eVDSL is fine for central clusters. It will service SMEs on main streets and the surrounds. Thats all it need to do.

1 Cab = Up to 200 homes from say 8Mb to avg 50Mb+ in the likes of a housing estate.

1 Rack = Up to 200 lines up from 15-20Mb to probably 30-50 on avg. Also a huge reglatory headache.

Thats why cabs went first. eVDSL is still a logical step in the interim before FTTH goes full production.

loyatemu · 20-01-2015 5:21pm

why is crosstalk a bigger issue for eVDSL than for FTTC?

Zith · 20-01-2015 8:09pm

loyatemu wrote: »

why is crosstalk a bigger issue for eVDSL than for FTTC?

I gather it's because in the exchange the VDSL has to co-exist with other existing technologies like ADSL and ISDN for example. In a cabinet it would be all VDSL with no other technology mixed in.

ED E · 20-01-2015 8:53pm

loyatemu wrote: »

why is crosstalk a bigger issue for eVDSL than for FTTC?

The topology will make it a bigger factor. The POTS network is laid out with Hubs (exchanges) and spurs our it multiple directions that then split further as they go.

Most cabinets are "out on a spur" where they have say a 200 pair main cable that feeds them which is then cross connected into the lines which feed the estate or dwelling cluster. When VDSL is jumpered in there it only runs parallel for max 2km and usually a LOT less. Users who dont upgrade have say 500m of bundle sharing with VDSL of a total 2-6km copper run. And usually its a small bundle.

Exchanges though, theyll have a set of main cables feeding into the MDF. Could be 600 pairs, could be 2000+. If you introduce VDSL onto hundreds of pairs the ADSL lines parallel will be receiving crosstalk from them for 100-2000m and from lots of them.

On the other side of the equation, every VDSL port thats put into play removes an ADSL port from use(after a few days). So the exchanges "noise floor" will be dropping as its child cabs go online as only the lowly PSTN services remain on those lines.

Only Huawei/Alcatel/etc engineers can say for sure what the real world effect of all this change in layout for signal generators and frequencies will mean, its by no means a simple system, but my worry would be that 5km lines that are already struggling to sync broker at all might suffer from being part of a 500 pair main cable that suddenly has 300 70Mb VDSL ports running full kilter. Hackery has said it won't be an issue, and assuming the source for that is reliable, great. Interesting topic to discuss though. Id love to be over-ruled with a better explanation.

kaizersoze · 20-01-2015 11:28pm

ED E wrote: »

The topology will make it a bigger factor. The POTS network is laid out with Hubs (exchanges) and spurs our it multiple directions that then split further as they go.

Most cabinets are "out on a spur" where they have say a 200 pair main cable that feeds them which is then cross connected into the lines which feed the estate or dwelling cluster. When VDSL is jumpered in there it only runs parallel for max 2km and usually a LOT less. Users who dont upgrade have say 500m of bundle sharing with VDSL of a total 2-6km copper run. And usually its a small bundle.

Exchanges though, theyll have a set of main cables feeding into the MDF. Could be 600 pairs, could be 2000+. If you introduce VDSL onto hundreds of pairs the ADSL lines parallel will be receiving crosstalk from them for 100-2000m and from lots of them.

On the other side of the equation, every VDSL port thats put into play removes an ADSL port from use(after a few days). So the exchanges "noise floor" will be dropping as its child cabs go online as only the lowly PSTN services remain on those lines.

Only Huawei/Alcatel/etc engineers can say for sure what the real world effect of all this change in layout for signal generators and frequencies will mean, its by no means a simple system, but my worry would be that 5km lines that are already struggling to sync broker at all might suffer from being part of a 500 pair main cable that suddenly has 300 70Mb VDSL ports running full kilter. Hackery has said it won't be an issue, and assuming the source for that is reliable, great. Interesting topic to discuss though. Id love to be over-ruled with a better explanation.

Great post.

lucernarian · 21-01-2015 9:39pm

I would love to get my hands on a Huawei (Ireland) engineer. But ED E's post isn't going into something I brought up earlier. Can eVDSL2 use the same power density and frequency management plan as ADSL2+, up to 2.2 MHz and then whatever frequency management plan exists for VDSL2 only after that? It should be similar to existing ADSL crosstalk. The exact modulation or the fact it's VDSL instead of ADSL family won't be that important once it behaves with the existing frequency management plan?

In an exchange, why is VDSL2 crosstalk worse for a phone line than ADSL2+ crosstalk?

Hackery · 21-01-2015 11:31pm

lucernarian wrote: »

In an exchange, why is VDSL2 crosstalk worse for a phone line than ADSL2+ crosstalk?

It's not.

lucernarian · 22-01-2015 12:18am

That's what I thought. In that case what do you think are the reasons for complications in achieving regulatory approval?

It's been suggested on the thread that for use on further lines e.g. beyond 2km, the CLFMP might get in the way. I thought VDSL2 would behave like ADSL2+ on the same frequency management plan.

Zith · 22-01-2015 11:27am

lucernarian wrote: »

That's what I thought. In that case what do you think are the reasons for complications in achieving regulatory approval?

Not technical reasons I would guess, more to slow down competitors delivering a superior rival product.

Eircom fibre for direct to exchange news?

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